Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I have seen World of Warcraft mentioned numerous times in this thread. There are few that would argue it has not dominated the market. Even if they never liked it, or what it has devolved into, the numbers speak for themselves. Warcraft has changed tremendously over the years. All for one purpose. Profitability. The game has went from trying to be as realistic as possible to as accessible to the masses as possible. The number of years in development only shows the changes to cater to the casual player. Legion is the penultimate expression of that. Everyone gets a Legendary, no work needed. (A Legendary from an Emissary Cache for doing 4 simple quests? Really?) There are things Blizzard still does a phenomenal job at, such as story. For a theme park, it can be one fun ride in that aspect. It will continue to change, and adapt to keep the current player base content. Yet it will never go back to making things more difficult out of fear of alienating it’s remaining base. Which is both aging (less prone to change), and significantly invested (/played shows years, not days for most). Yes, Titan was their next MMORPG, in fact they even at the time of development stated that if they didn’t try to make a Warcraft killer, someone else would. That was before Activision. That was before they were a subsidiary with fiduciary responsibilities beholden to a company known more for the bottom line, than anything else. No, they are not making any new MMORPG that might interfere with Warcraft’s revenue. Instead they will look at other niches to fill. Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm, Overwatch, Starcraft Remastered, etc
I honestly have not played a free aim MMORPG, so I shall not make any comment about which is better. Especially since it would be biased due to my disdain for FPS Twitch based games. I am more interested in story, and tactics (such as Starcraft).
As far as I can see, two things that pertain to the this. First is immersion, which Steve has spoken as the basis of his preference of video games over pen and paper games. I entirely see how a free aim system could be more immersive, giving you more of a feeling of being that character. Just as I can see others having that immersion broken by a UI that is frustrating, and not as accessible as other options. All things considered then, targeting as an immersion factor is a personal preference, so not one that I see Intrepid using for their decision making. The second, and the one that I believe matters to Intrepid is that they wish to put the word Massive back into MMORPG. That does not happen by catering to a smaller demographic. I have zero doubt they have done far more market research than any of us posting in this thread combined. To be massive, means to lure the masses. The WoW killer, which is an eventuality, is not going to be so because it has a different combat system. Otherwise it would not still be considered such a dominant force in the genre. It is the other aspects of Ashes that are likely to pull a good portion of Blizzard’s long time player base.
There is no “perfect game”, as we define perfect based on our own biases. There can be a perfect balance. Let’s see what Intrepid’s Hybrid system is like.
Locke
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Good post. I agree with a lot of what you said but one thing stuck out to me and that is where we swerve way off some of our common thought.
"The second, and the one that I believe matters to Intrepid is that they wish to put the word Massive back into MMORPG. That does not happen by catering to a smaller demographic."
I don't agree that the twitch free aim crowd is a smaller demographic anymore at least in NA. I think part of why so many MMO's have failed in the last 10 years is because the dynamic has shifted and they haven't been paying attention. Sandbox/free aim high skill based combat vs. themepark/tab target more accessible low skill ceiling of old.
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Tab-target worked well so far for me and I'm still loving it! Just do what you think is best for AoC! Can't wait to get my hands on... :(
“The second, and the one that I believe matters to Intrepid is that they wish to put the word Massive back into MMORPG. That does not happen by catering to a smaller demographic.”
I don’t agree that the twitch free aim crowd is a smaller demographic anymore at least in NA. I think part of why so many MMO’s have failed in the last 10 years is because the dynamic has shifted and they haven’t been paying attention. Sandbox/free aim high skill based combat vs. themepark/tab target more accessible low skill ceiling of old.[/quote]
You not cater to small niche groups of players with MMORPGs. You can cater to a subset yes, but just like trials of ascension which is an action based MMORPG with Permadeath which caters to the PVP crowd the game cannot even get the developers it needs to make the game. if it ever is made it will have taken 7+ years before its even out the door then it will shut down because no one likes Permadeath in an MMORPG, There is also a small base of players that like action combat and still smaller group of PVP players. You say there is this large base of PVP players who want action combat, say Darkfall was perfect yet how populated is that MMORPG? I can tell you it is not from checking around the internet. Add to that Black Desert Online which is a PVP focused MMORPG with action Combat. Guess what they have about 90K playing from NA now while being a B2P model with a cash shop that focuses on you spending money to help you advance quicker.
You cannot cater to such a small group of players that your MMORPG will not make a profit because it will not be around for long. The TRUTH is Ashes is going to want somewhere between 300k and 500K subscriptions to be profitable on a smaller MMORPG budget. You cannot do this by becoming so niche that you ignore a larger portion of the MMORPG crowd. If you notice they are melding some Old school MMORPG designs and focuses with New School MMORPG designs. For example the game is going to have a larger focus on PVP in the world, BUT it will also have instances Dungeons. They are trying to meld tab target with action based combat to make a unique system that should grab both Tab Target players and Action Based players. They are not going to make everyone happy but they are not trying to shoehorn themselves into a small shoe that kills this game.
I am going to say this. Stop getting all upset over this. People want tab target just like you want Action Combat. Agree that is the case and WAIT until they come out and play the game in Alpha or Beta. HELP the Developers fine tune the system they designed and when you put your personal opinion out try to take into account more than just your personal feelings. Read and try to understand what other people are saying and come up with solutions to their issues as well as yours.
I understand you want more skill in your PVP than Tab to player JackAssPVPEr and throw your rotation at them. I get that. I am saying lets see what is built AND take all aspects into the game into play. Just like WOW is known for screwing up PVE for PVP we do not want that shit here. We want to make sure if you change 1 aspect of the game it does not completely screw up another. Lets get into Alpha and play it to make a better game.
Personally I think the ONLY thing we should put our foot down on and totally shut down any discussion on and not accept other people's opinion is on F2P/B2P/P2W BS. That should be hard balled and not discussed. Everything else lets get into Development and work together to fix the game the right way.
I gave up trying to catch all the way up, but I wanted to address a couple of the early posts I saw.
@MckStackerson
Good points about Skyrim and Horizon Zero Dawn. It's true that those aren't twitchy games and the combat is still tactical. I guess my overall point wasn't that those mechanics can be tactical (any combat system would be) it's just the skill curve is more balanced between aim and tactics as opposed to tab targeting which is almost entirely tactics. Now, that's certainly not a bad thing to require more variety of skill. However, I still would have some concern that those are single player examples which might not scale up too well when the number of actual combatants number in the dozens or even hundreds. As long as the system did not kill support classes then I really wouldn't have an issue with it, but I do have great concern about it. Free aiming supports would almost inherently be a liability due to the high risk of healing an enemy. Darkfall of course had healing mechanics, but there were not true healer/support characters either so it's hard to say that it would have ever worked in that game (had the devs actually delivered on a few promises). In theory I like the idea of not being able to macro target someone, but one of my truly favorite aspects of MMORPG's is class and group diversity. If a free aim system can fully support that diversity without inherently gimping certain classes then I'd support it, but this just comes down to a case of "I haven't seen it yet".
@Beretta
I hope this does not come across as rude, but you pull a lot of statistics out of the air. I do agree that there will be some players who won't play a game if it's tab targeted and there will be some who won't play it if it's free aim. I believe though, based on watching MMO's of the last 10+ years, that most people are willing to support any kind of a targeting system. They just need the game to be solid. A claim that I made which can rather easily be backed up by statistics on sites like MMORPG.com shows that games with tab targeting not only work but have consistently presented the industry with the most successful games. There is certainly some volume bias in there. However, regardless of any volume bias there may be; any claim which kills a game before it's even in beta due to it's <strong>TAB</strong> targeting system is objectively false.
Overwatch is a fun game, but you're not necessarily looking at the same target audience either. Overwatch is at heart an Arena based FPS game, and while many of us who play MMO's also enjoy games like that we aren't necessarily playing Overwatch to fill our MMO itch. I love Overwatch as a game, but Blizzard's following and marketing machine have done as much as anything to make it as popular as it has become. Similar games like Paladins and Battleborn have not enjoyed nearly the success that it has. That isn't to take anything away from the type of game Overwatch is, but I'm just pointing out that there is more than simple game mechanics involved with the Overwatch hype.
since the beginning of mmo's, heck even since before n64's zelda occarina of time (yes, action combat did not really evolve since then, until maybe batman, which is still not translated into multiplayer) i wished for a decent combat system. i understand that ping and open world was a problem once, but i also see, how it can be handled today with some effort.
even if it means that the overall combat action has to be slower for the server to handle, so be it. and while some pro-tab targeters say its no biggie, i've seen much more people than expected leaning towards action combat. And even those, who never thought about it and didn't care, reacted positively on action combat games and loved it! OP is right, it is the was to go today.
To be able to block or dodge and having a real impact with your well thought out hits is very important.
This is a western developed, fantasy themed MMO.
Every MMO i've played without tab targeting just turns into a flashy spam fest with people zipping around all over the place and you cant see a thing that's going on. BDO is the main culprit of late for this.
Tab-targeting feels more civilized to me, chose your target and use you abilities to take them down. Not run head first into combat and spam your stun then flashy AOE/Jump everywhere ability.
So for me, if its not Tab targetting, i'm out.
have an awful time sometimes in BDO with opponent desync/lag causing perfectly aimed action shots"missing"
There's nothing wrong with tab targeting, per se. But free aim is simply tab targeting PLUS some additional skill. You still have your rotations. You still have your cooldowns and skills to manage. That's all still there. You just have to make sure your aim is true. Make sure you step out of the way of that swing just in time and shoot the fireball where he's dashing to, leading the target, not where he is now.
It introduces player movement/aiming/dodging skill into PvP. No longer is it simply up to "well he has the weapon with the bigger numbers so.. he selects me, hits his keyboard shortcuts, and I try to hit my keys as well and see who comes out on top." If a player is really good at moving and aiming, he could potentially eek out an advantage over a similar level player, or even a higher level one.
If I want to play an action game, I will fire up the Xbone and use a controller and button mash trying to get combos.
For me personally, I'm looking for a game in which you can immerse yourself, combat is only a small part of it.
The game then becomes a lot more action orientated because you would use your surroundings more. Yea SWG combat was a bit slower than today's combat BUT the idea is still the same you dont throw a fireball through a wall to hit and so on.
I hate that the combat type is largely a deal breaker for me. After playing TERA for years I just cannot bring myself to play any of the other great MMO's. I'm not saying tab targeting is bad, just expressing personal experience. I would absolutely love to play FFXIV or GW2, but I just can't any more. It saddens me.
Then again, there's this forgotten and overlooked game titled Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, which has... I'm not even sure what that kind of combat would be called, magnetic targeting?. I mention it cause it was originally meant to be an MMO, but after a lot of stuff it was just released as single player. However, only example I can thing of that's similar in combat would be the Arkham series, since it would have worked so well as an MMO, it's another combat style to look at.
I hate that the combat type is largely a deal breaker for me. After playing TERA for years I just cannot bring myself to play any of the other great MMO’s. I’m not saying tab targeting is bad, just expressing personal experience. I would absolutely love to play FFXIV or GW2, but I just can’t any more. It saddens me.
Then again, there’s this forgotten and overlooked game titled Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, which has… I’m not even sure what that kind of combat would be called, magnetic targeting?. I mention it cause it was originally meant to be an MMO, but after a lot of stuff it was just released as single player. However, only example I can thing of that’s similar in combat would be the Arkham series, since it would have worked so well as an MMO, it’s another combat style to look at.
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Good luck finding a game that fits you. Not every game will make everyone happy. Example I have problems with my wrist, tendonitis basically. I cannot play ESO, or Neverwinter more than an hour or so at a time because of the action combat. Yet I can play FFXIV without problems because the way the combat is designed. So not every game fits me. If you dont like the combat go find a game that you like the combat.
For example, in EQ each monster were so hard that you would want them to come one at the time in order for your group to handle them properly, as in ESO you would want to pull the whole map out because it was something just easier and faster to do. Handling Tab Target works around the same overall perspective.
If the world is hard enough that player won't want to handle massive group of monster then tab targeting as an option is alright. I wish we could see a more inbetween approach such as the one TSW pull out which was that player could do single target with mouse targeting and aoe no matter but if the same is design in such way that it is only single target and that the tab targeting system is build in order to prevent lag issue then overall it can help. I do love ESO combat style despite from being too easy, and did love the pulling system of EQ which was preventing group to handle more then they could (except PoR which was bad, IMHO).
So Overall, I wouldn't prefere a systematic tab target system which usually leads to a skill casting system such as wow which isn't a dynamic model such as the one Eso is offering but if tabtargetting is an option for lower lag issue then I would aim toward a more inbetween approach such as Wildstar were targeting is still part of the system but pre-concieve targeting system can reduce lag overall.
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Huge concern for me as well. After playing BDO for a while, ESO combat (for example) now seems extremely lackluster. I'm about to return to BDO just for the combat mechanics. Don't get me wrong, BDO fails in alot of other areas, but damn did they nail combat.
-Prim