Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjQLsE02OPg
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/2/#post-5087" rel="nofollow">Sen wrote:</a></div>
Give us a good example of an MMORPG action game that gets the job done right.
</blockquote>
This is kind of a cheep shot because we don’t have a lot of MMOs to go off of. The majority of action MMOs we are getting are coming from the east and seem to fail for reasons other then their combat, like p2w and grindy mechanics. I also don’t see a lot of new tab target games being made and soaring into popularity.
<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/users/affy/" rel="nofollow">@affy</a>
Thanks for the reply and for bringing up darkfall.
Performance is a hard thing to talk about because you are right in that tab targeting is easier and there is no getting around that. As you pointed out though, darkfall was able to figure it out and that game was made ~10 years ago by a small studio. I want to say someone could make it better and the devs are also using an engine that is made for this style game. It looks like BDO was also able to pull it off big 100+ v 100+ battles.
I still want to push back against your tactics argument because free aiming systems has the same thing. When you add in collision, there is more to it then just trying to hide as your tanks are also physically blocking for your healers. Just because it requires aiming does mean the focus is of the system is on ‘twitch.’ Is horizon zero dawn, skyrim, or zelda breath of the wild about twitch? Should skyrim be tab target because it’s not about 360 no scoping? Most action MMOs that use aiming aren’t “twitchy” so i don’t know why it should be considered a focus of the system.
Why do you think Darkfalls large scale combat would have been better as tab target? I think this is where we disagree. I’m extremely sorry if a straw man you here. I’m going to assume that you didn’t like darkfall’s large scale battles because it was harder to focus targets but this is why i loved it. I don’t want to play a game where 100 people can press a focus macro, use an ability, and i’m dead. This is the biggest reasons i want free aim. I play melee and big fights aren’t fun for me if it’s so easy for me to be focused. I like free aiming systems, where big battles naturally get broken up into smaller ones because of how hard it is for a large number of people to aim at one point. To me this is a great thing. If we have big battles and death is supposed to matter then we need it harder for big groups to single out one target.
[/quote]
Well said Mcstackerson...the fact that it was DIFFICULT to focus targets played a major part in what made the combat great in Darkfall. Hit the nail on the head. You could dodge and evade get behind other players, disappear in a crowd heal up and sneak up behind the guy that was focusing you. Also, the fact that you didn't have this huge **** name plate above your head that you could see from behind objects is what made it even more dynamic and interesting. You could literally take off use cover and crouch and disappear if you were slick...you didn't have the unrealistic name plate giving away your position from 500 yards away. Name plates above characters heads...bah..ridiculous. Nothing like going into a hot spawn or popular area...literally crouching all ninja like trying to make sure there isn't any one else trying to ambush you using your eyes and ears listening for foot steps or the slight shift in the dirt of muffled footsteps of someone crouch walking. That's something tab target games and players will never experience. It's freaking amazing.
Oh and btw AoC dev's if you think Blizzard doesn't understand the fact FPS and high skill pvp is the future for this genre and tab target pvp while you play solitaire split screen is a dying art you are sorely mistaken. My best guess is that Overwatch was a test of that system and likely from what others have said was a halted version of their next MMORPG "Titan project". It's been tested and passed with flying colors in Overwatch...sold crazy amounts of copies. Their next MMORPG WILL be dynamic and WILL be revolutionary, and if you don't step in and do it first it will replace you when it finally does release down the road.
BTW AoC dev's if you don't think Blizzard isn't working on the next action or FPS blockbuster MMO to replace all of the failed nonsense over the last 10 years...I think you will be sorely mistaken. I think Overwatch was a market test of sorts and game play test. It would benefit you to follow the revolution in pvp combat in my opinion. Otherwise I have a feeling this game will last about as long as it takes them to build that game.
[/quote]
I agree I prefer Tab target, I have tried Action Combat in various MMO's & even Wildstars PBAOE "cone of attack" attack system.
I have played WoW for 10 years, SWTOR for 4 years and TAB TARGET wins hands down.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/#post-5045" rel="nofollow">Glory wrote:</a></div>
I’m happy they are going with a Tab Target system. Action MMOs are typically gimmicky and I’d rather them focus on other cool features rather than spend all their time trying to manage a gimmicky system that is bound to have issues.
</blockquote>
I agree I prefer Tab target, I have tried Action Combat in various MMO’s & even Wildstars PBAOE “cone of attack” attack system.
I have played WoW for 10 years, SWTOR for 4 years and TAB TARGET wins hands down.
[/quote]
Again, unfortunately you can't use any of the AAA MMORPG's as an example of good action pvp. It's all been broken versions of FPS that are not fluid or seamless. The only games that have done it right I've already mentioned in this thread and unfortunately didn't have huge player base because of lack of marketing and not having the content needed to keep people playing. Nevertheless they are examples that FPS combat can be done in an MMORPG and be a much more challenging and enjoyable environment. Simply put I won't bother playing a tab target game and many other gamers in this day and age won't either, and an even higher percentage will try a tab target but won't bother playing beyond a few weeks to months, which again is not healthy for the game obviously.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5410" rel="nofollow">WIZBASKY wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/#post-5045" rel="nofollow">Glory wrote:</a></div>
I’m happy they are going with a Tab Target system. Action MMOs are typically gimmicky and I’d rather them focus on other cool features rather than spend all their time trying to manage a gimmicky system that is bound to have issues.
</blockquote>
I agree I prefer Tab target, I have tried Action Combat in various MMO’s & even Wildstars PBAOE “cone of attack” attack system.
I have played WoW for 10 years, SWTOR for 4 years and TAB TARGET wins hands down.
</blockquote>
Again, unfortunately you can’t use any of the AAA MMORPG’s as an example of good action pvp. It’s all been broken versions of FPS that are not fluid or seamless. The only games that have done it right I’ve already mentioned in this thread and unfortunately didn’t have huge player base because of lack of marketing and not having the content needed to keep people playing. Nevertheless they are examples that FPS combat can be done in an MMORPG and be a much more challenging and enjoyable environment. Simply put I won’t bother playing a tab target game and many other gamers in this day and age won’t either, and an even higher percentage will try a tab target but won’t bother playing beyond a few weeks to months, which again is not healthy for the game obviously.
[/quote]
Where is the data saying that many gamers will not play a tab target game? Yea you might be one and your friends might not. Yet I have personally 50+ friends that will never again play a Action Combat game like Wildstar, or ESO. All have played their both or at least 1 of them. My wife is a good example, she played ESO and fucking hated healing just like ToKev. Yet she is a great healer in WOW, SWTOR, Rift and FFXIV. Yet was a bad healer in ESO because it was near impossible to target players because they were always moving. Now I AGREE that old school WOW Tab Targeting has become boring. BUT as a tank and someone who has healed, having the ability to tab target a Boss or a target I want to heal its 100 times more preferable than Aiming at them.
Now we need to honestly sit down and WAIT until we can get into the game and really see how combat is. Now I believe players need to have more action that standing in 1 place throwing a rotation, but I do not feel that making sure players have a recital over another is the key to combat. Let's wait and see what they come up with. Having tab target is not so bad if it is way more action combat focused but without the need to making sure you are aiming like ESO.
Again lets wait and see and stop making this a post an over reaction because it does not help out the game or the community. The ONLY overreaction I think is even remotely needed on this forms is making sure the game stays P2P and not become P2W.
BTW AoC dev’s if you don’t think Blizzard isn’t working on the next action or FPS blockbuster MMO to replace all of the failed nonsense over the last 10 years…I think you will be sorely mistaken. I think Overwatch was a market test of sorts and game play test. It would benefit you to follow the revolution in pvp combat in my opinion. Otherwise I have a feeling this game will last about as long as it takes them to build that game.
[/quote]
Do you really not know how NOT to over react here. No Blizzard is NOT working on a new MMORPG right now. They are going to stick with games like overwatch which are cheap to make and make you a lot of money. They have 0 interest in making an new MMORPG. AND if they did they would stick with Tab Targeting because its the easiest form of combat for RPG players to play. RPG player are not like FPS players, they do not need fast action combat. You see that in every MMORPG that has Action Combat. These games are not popular at all. Go play an RPG like NeverWinter Nights 1/2, or even Diablo. They focus on using different abilities to take shit down, something Action Combat does not allow. You only get 10 or so abilities you can use in an Action Combat game. Tab Target you get way more, Yep sometimes too many but in the RPG realm you get Druids who can call upon the vegetation around them to root a player or a warrior will use a massive cold down ability to reduce damage 80%. In action combat games you have 10 keys that players can quickly touch, 1,2,3,4,5,Q,E,R,F, and tab. Because of this in every action combat game I played nearly all players pick damage abilities no CC no Damage cool down abilities, everything is Damage Damage Damage. It turns into street fighter and people hate that outside people who want to play FPS. If thats what you want go play Ghost Recon.
RPGs are about using different abilities and sometimes special abilities you only use in a very tough situation since D&D on pen and paper. Tab Target in an MMORPG is the ONLY way to do this because you can have tons of buttons to use because you can click on the ability icon on your screen. Now I do think Today's WOW combat is lame but that is because they streamlined all the abilities for everyone vs having abilities like Shield Wall on a 30 minute cool down in Vanilla. People used these Rare abilities in tough situations which made the combat 100 times better. Why? Because you lost a healer on a boss fight now the tank needs to mitigate the damage the best he can while the 1 healer is up trying to keep the tank an 7 other players alive. That comes down to skills and teamwork something that has been lacking in MMOs since WOTLK. Which is why you got Crappy MMORPGS now because they cater to every by making every ability equal because no one should have an advantage because of true skill. BTW Combat in Vanilla WOW in AB was great because teams could be on par with each other and using special abilities wouldnt even make a big difference because the team work. And that was Tab Targeting but every class had a weakness and a strength. If a Rogue caught a mage unaware the mage was dead, today Mages can get out of anything JUST BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE FAIR!!. That is the Problem not tab target but because every class cannot have strengths or weaknesses. If you are the Mage and I play my Rogue and I get you first you are should be dead not well you have 10 spells to get away.
Do you really not know how NOT to over react here. No Blizzard is NOT working on a new MMORPG right now. They are going to stick with games like overwatch which are cheap to make and make you a lot of money. They have 0 interest in making an new MMORPG. AND if they did they would stick with Tab Targeting because its the easiest form of combat for RPG players to play. RPG player are not like FPS players, they do not need fast action combat. You see that in every MMORPG that has Action Combat. These games are not popular at all. Go play an RPG like NeverWinter Nights 1/2, or even Diablo. They focus on using different abilities to take shit down, something Action Combat does not allow. You only get 10 or so abilities you can use in an Action Combat game. Tab Target you get way more, Yep sometimes too many but in the RPG realm you get Druids who can call upon the vegetation around them to root a player or a warrior will use a massive cold down ability to reduce damage 80%. In action combat games you have 10 keys that players can quickly touch, 1,2,3,4,5,Q,E,R,F, and tab. Because of this in every action combat game I played nearly all players pick damage abilities no CC no Damage cool down abilities, everything is Damage Damage Damage. It turns into street fighter and people hate that outside people who want to play FPS. If thats what you want go play Ghost Recon.
RPGs are about using different abilities and sometimes special abilities you only use in a very tough situation since D&D on pen and paper. Tab Target in an MMORPG is the ONLY way to do this because you can have tons of buttons to use because you can click on the ability icon on your screen. Now I do think Today’s WOW combat is lame but that is because they streamlined all the abilities for everyone vs having abilities like Shield Wall on a 30 minute cool down in Vanilla. People used these Rare abilities in tough situations which made the combat 100 times better. Why? Because you lost a healer on a boss fight now the tank needs to mitigate the damage the best he can while the 1 healer is up trying to keep the tank an 7 other players alive. That comes down to skills and teamwork something that has been lacking in MMOs since WOTLK. Which is why you got Crappy MMORPGS now because they cater to every by making every ability equal because no one should have an advantage because of true skill. BTW Combat in Vanilla WOW in AB was great because teams could be on par with each other and using special abilities wouldnt even make a big difference because the team work. And that was Tab Targeting but every class had a weakness and a strength. If a Rogue caught a mage unaware the mage was dead, today Mages can get out of anything JUST BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE FAIR!!. That is the Problem not tab target but because every class cannot have strengths or weaknesses. If you are the Mage and I play my Rogue and I get you first you are should be dead not well you have 10 spells to get away.
[/quote]
Action games aren't reaching wow numbers but they are still holding people. Yes, there hasn't been an action game that has overtaken wow but neither has any of the newer tab target games. We all know the logic that wow is popular therefore tab-target is popular is flawed due to the small sample size we have to work with and the the large number of other features that make these games. Most of the action combat games we have seen are from over seas and incorporate other systems that aren't popular in our region.
Just because the system uses free aiming doesn't mean it limits the number of abilities. In darkfall you had over 100 abilities. All ability effects you see in tab target games can be put on abilities in a free aim system and if anything, I have seen more ability variety in free aim systems. Melee weapons can be have different arcs and reaches. Projectile abilities can be made to fly farther, be affected by gravity, and have different AoEs. You still have the option for instant raycast/hitscan abilities. Designers have the same pool of cc's you see in tab target games but because aiming is necessary they can have blinding/disorient abilities that make it harder to aim.
As a side note: Steven has said he wants to limit the number of abilities we have in this game.
Vanilla wow was great but i don't think we can ever go back to it or at least, it will never be main steam again.
I loved vanilla wow. I pvped to warlord and raided nax in vanilla but when i went back on a private server, I did not enjoy it. It felt like if you were melee, you spent most of your time following people around auto attacking and if you were range you spent most of your time spamming the same ability.
I don't think any ability that is so powerful that it needs to be balanced with a long cooldown belongs in pvp. Fights should not come down to who has there hour cooldown up.
I don't agree that a rogue should win because it stealthed up on someone. Stealthing up on a victim should give you an advantage but that shouldn't mean you win. The opponent should have the opportunity fight back and a way to win.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5297" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
Well said Mcstackerson…the fact that it was DIFFICULT to focus targets played a major part in what made the combat great in Darkfall. Hit the nail on the head. You could dodge and evade get behind other players, disappear in a crowd heal up and sneak up behind the guy that was focusing you. Also, the fact that you didn’t have this huge **** name plate above your head that you could see from behind objects is what made it even more dynamic and interesting. You could literally take off use cover and crouch and disappear if you were slick…you didn’t have the unrealistic name plate giving away your position from 500 yards away. Name plates above characters heads…bah..ridiculous. Nothing like going into a hot spawn or popular area…literally crouching all ninja like trying to make sure there isn’t any one else trying to ambush you using your eyes and ears listening for foot steps or the slight shift in the dirt of muffled footsteps of someone crouch walking. That’s something tab target games and players will never experience. It’s freaking amazing.
BTW AoC dev’s if you don’t think Blizzard isn’t working on the next action or FPS blockbuster MMO to replace all of the failed nonsense over the last 10 years…I think you will be sorely mistaken. I think Overwatch was a market test of sorts and game play test. It would benefit you to follow the revolution in pvp combat in my opinion. Otherwise I have a feeling this game will last about as long as it takes them to build that game.
</blockquote>
Do you really not know how NOT to over react here. No Blizzard is NOT working on a new MMORPG right now. They are going to stick with games like overwatch which are cheap to make and make you a lot of money. They have 0 interest in making an new MMORPG. AND if they did they would stick with Tab Targeting because its the easiest form of combat for RPG players to play. RPG player are not like FPS players, they do not need fast action combat. You see that in every MMORPG that has Action Combat. These games are not popular at all. Go play an RPG like NeverWinter Nights 1/2, or even Diablo. They focus on using different abilities to take shit down, something Action Combat does not allow. You only get 10 or so abilities you can use in an Action Combat game. Tab Target you get way more, Yep sometimes too many but in the RPG realm you get Druids who can call upon the vegetation around them to root a player or a warrior will use a massive cold down ability to reduce damage 80%. In action combat games you have 10 keys that players can quickly touch, 1,2,3,4,5,Q,E,R,F, and tab. Because of this in every action combat game I played nearly all players pick damage abilities no CC no Damage cool down abilities, everything is Damage Damage Damage. It turns into street fighter and people hate that outside people who want to play FPS. If thats what you want go play Ghost Recon.
RPGs are about using different abilities and sometimes special abilities you only use in a very tough situation since D&D on pen and paper. Tab Target in an MMORPG is the ONLY way to do this because you can have tons of buttons to use because you can click on the ability icon on your screen. Now I do think Today’s WOW combat is lame but that is because they streamlined all the abilities for everyone vs having abilities like Shield Wall on a 30 minute cool down in Vanilla. People used these Rare abilities in tough situations which made the combat 100 times better. Why? Because you lost a healer on a boss fight now the tank needs to mitigate the damage the best he can while the 1 healer is up trying to keep the tank an 7 other players alive. That comes down to skills and teamwork something that has been lacking in MMOs since WOTLK. Which is why you got Crappy MMORPGS now because they cater to every by making every ability equal because no one should have an advantage because of true skill. BTW Combat in Vanilla WOW in AB was great because teams could be on par with each other and using special abilities wouldnt even make a big difference because the team work. And that was Tab Targeting but every class had a weakness and a strength. If a Rogue caught a mage unaware the mage was dead, today Mages can get out of anything JUST BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO BE FAIR!!. That is the Problem not tab target but because every class cannot have strengths or weaknesses. If you are the Mage and I play my Rogue and I get you first you are should be dead not well you have 10 spells to get away.
[/quote]
Way to battle an overreaction WITH an overreaction. That'll teach me! By the way I'm pretty sure most hardcore gamer's know Overwatch was part of the cancelled Titan project. That can't be 100 percent proven, but I'd say it's pretty safe to assume from leaked info over the last 3 to 5 years before the overwatch release. As for whether Blizzard is making another MMORPG, If you don't think Blizzard is going to fight for that market they have dominated for over a decade and has made them billions...well you have no hope brother and no reason to discuss further.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5440" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
</blockquote>
I don’t agree that a rogue should win because it stealthed up on someone. Stealthing up on a victim should give you an advantage but that shouldn’t mean you win. The opponent should have the opportunity fight back and a way to win.
[/quote]
When I played a Hunter in WOW I use to stand right on top of my frost trap to keep rogues and warriors away from me. If I let that trap die and got caught in melee range with a Warrior or a Rogue I should get my ass handed to me because I didnt use my few skills. I should not have an endless supply of abilities to keep away from Warriors and Rogues. If I am not paying attention to what is going on around me I should be destroyed but I should also not have endless amounts of abilities to get out of Melee range as a hunter just because people want Balance in an RPG. If a Rogue stealths up to me and stun locks me and I dont have my trap down, I should get my ass handed to me. Why? Because I am not being a good PVP Player then. But if I do have my trap up and the Rogue breaks the trap I should have the ability to get away from him if I use the terrain around me properly. Like Run through water and then if I can trap him there I do it. Then I keep running, but if I just run aimlessly and do not use my evasion skills the Rogue or Warrior should be able to caught up to me and kill me.
What I am saying is basically if a Class uses its strength to exploit another class's weakness and that person playing does not use the 1 or 2 skills to mitigate that weakness or does but does not use the abilities right. That class using its strength should destroy their opponent. And NO we should not make all classes have the ability to endlessly overcome their weakness like WOW does today. You should have very limited abilities to overcome your weakness. Like my hunter, I only could use my traps to slow down a melee and get the hell out of range. I also would completely disengage a melee until I can use my surroundings to protect me, but if I dont and they close I should not be able to stand toe to toe with them just because.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5440" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5297" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
Way to battle an overreaction WITH an overreaction. That’ll teach me! By the way I’m pretty sure most hardcore gamer’s know Overwatch was part of the cancelled Titan project. That can’t be 100 percent proven, but I’d say it’s pretty safe to assume from leaked info over the last 3 to 5 years before the overwatch release. As for whether Blizzard is making another MMORPG, If you don’t think Blizzard is going to fight for that market they have dominated for over a decade and has made them billions…well you have no hope brother and no reason to discuss further.
[/quote]
Ok lets now relax and quit with the overreactions. I think that this point lets wait for Alpha and Beta to play out to see what they come up with. You and I both have strong opinions. Let's agree that Tab Target and Action Combat have their Pros and Cons and lets agree that people have their preference what they like and that too is a valid point of view.
If we can do that I think we can discuss the pros and cons of Ashes once we really see what the combat is like in a civil and respectful manner.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5541" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5440" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5297" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
Way to battle an overreaction WITH an overreaction. That’ll teach me! By the way I’m pretty sure most hardcore gamer’s know Overwatch was part of the cancelled Titan project. That can’t be 100 percent proven, but I’d say it’s pretty safe to assume from leaked info over the last 3 to 5 years before the overwatch release. As for whether Blizzard is making another MMORPG, If you don’t think Blizzard is going to fight for that market they have dominated for over a decade and has made them billions…well you have no hope brother and no reason to discuss further.
</blockquote>
Ok lets now relax and quit with the overreactions. I think that this point lets wait for Alpha and Beta to play out to see what they come up with. You and I both have strong opinions. Let’s agree that Tab Target and Action Combat have their Pros and Cons and lets agree that people have their preference what they like and that too is a valid point of view.
If we can do that I think we can discuss the pros and cons of Ashes once we really see what the combat is like in a civil and respectful manner.
[/quote]
I totally agree there ARE people that enjoy and prefer tab target...I just don't think they are in the majority which is what should matter when making a game and wanting it to be successful.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5545" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5541" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5440" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5297" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
Way to battle an overreaction WITH an overreaction. That’ll teach me! By the way I’m pretty sure most hardcore gamer’s know Overwatch was part of the cancelled Titan project. That can’t be 100 percent proven, but I’d say it’s pretty safe to assume from leaked info over the last 3 to 5 years before the overwatch release. As for whether Blizzard is making another MMORPG, If you don’t think Blizzard is going to fight for that market they have dominated for over a decade and has made them billions…well you have no hope brother and no reason to discuss further.
</blockquote>
Ok lets now relax and quit with the overreactions. I think that this point lets wait for Alpha and Beta to play out to see what they come up with. You and I both have strong opinions. Let’s agree that Tab Target and Action Combat have their Pros and Cons and lets agree that people have their preference what they like and that too is a valid point of view.
If we can do that I think we can discuss the pros and cons of Ashes once we really see what the combat is like in a civil and respectful manner.
</blockquote>
I totally agree there ARE people that enjoy and prefer tab target…I just don’t think they are in the majority which is what should matter when making a game and wanting it to be successful.
[/quote]
We are just going to have to agree to disagree because you take the largest MMORPG Population right now which is in WOW and the large majority of that player base will never play a action combat game. You can say yes they will, BUT the fact remains how many of them went to Action Combat games didnt like it went back to WOW, or wouldnt play an action combat game. Personally the countless people I know just will not play an action combat game. I keep in touch with nearly 100 people I have played with at one time or another, most MMORPG players cannot say that.
We are just going to have to agree to disagree because you take the largest MMORPG Population right now which is in WOW and the large majority of that player base will never play a action combat game. You can say yes they will, BUT the fact remains how many of them went to Action Combat games didnt like it went back to WOW, or wouldnt play an action combat game. Personally the countless people I know just will not play an action combat game. I keep in touch with nearly 100 people I have played with at one time or another, most MMORPG players cannot say that.
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This isn't a good argument because they went back to wow. It has never mattered if it was action or tab target, most people have gone back to wow which probably means it's for reasons other then the combat system. I've seen your coms and there are people playing action games. Look at this games community discord and tally up the games people are playing.
We also have the huge issue that you are calling them action combat games but they have different combat systems. Wildstar uses a telegraph system while ESO uses a soft lock system and we are seeing a different system every time a new game attempts this. I feel like crowfall has come really close to making a free aim system that plays like a tab target game. Point is, there are many ways of doing things and we still haven't explored all the possibilities.
In the end, i'm waiting to see what we get. We have some hints of something that might be considered a hybrid system.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5607" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
We are just going to have to agree to disagree because you take the largest MMORPG Population right now which is in WOW and the large majority of that player base will never play a action combat game. You can say yes they will, BUT the fact remains how many of them went to Action Combat games didnt like it went back to WOW, or wouldnt play an action combat game. Personally the countless people I know just will not play an action combat game. I keep in touch with nearly 100 people I have played with at one time or another, most MMORPG players cannot say that.
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This isn’t a good argument because they went back to wow. It has never mattered if it was action or tab target, most people have gone back to wow which probably means it’s for reasons other then the combat system. I’ve seen your coms and there are people playing action games. Look at this games community discord and tally up the games people are playing.
We also have the huge issue that you are calling them action combat games but they have different combat systems. Wildstar uses a telegraph system while ESO uses a soft lock system and we are seeing a different system every time a new game attempts this. I feel like crowfall has come really close to making a free aim system that plays like a tab target game. Point is, there are many ways of doing things and we still haven’t explored all the possibilities.
In the end, i’m waiting to see what we get. We have some hints of something that might be considered a hybrid system.
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Thing is no one can say exactly what the majority of the MMORPG player base likes off of forum post and Discord. My 5 closest friends and my wife who are all interested in this game that I talk to nearly everyday all day will never do a full action combat system. They tried Neverwinter and ESO. I know thats not fair for all action combat because these games sucked for doing dungeons where you need tank healer DPS and why Tab Target works the best in games designed like WOW, FFXIV, Rift, and SWTOR. These games rely on the trinity system for dungeons. I know Dungeons will be a small part of ashes BUT if you hold to the Trinity system has a healer its fucking hard as hell to heal someone when you need to target them with a reticle and they keep moving. Its a bunch of bullshit and yes they either play with me on FFXIV, or play WOW or they dont play any MMORPGs right now because of life. But they do not care for the free flow aiming of a reticle.
With that said I am not saying one group is better than the next. Because that wouldnt be right. What I will say and this is true, most MMORPG players DO NOT post on forums and join discussion channels. The reason being is they dont want to get into shit feast that happen in these feedback locations. My Wife and I give our feedback in FFXIV directly. We type up our personal feedback and send it in. It does not get shit feasted on forums or anything. People at SE read the feedback and do what ever they want with it. So no one here can say there is a majority of players that play one combat style over another outside of taking numbers who play one game over another because the people on the forums in any game are the vocal minority.
Now with that said. I personally do hope for a hybrid system because if in a Dungeon if it is anything like Vanilla WOW was where you need CC, DPS, Tank and Healer its a lot easier and more manageable as a healer to click on a health bar or hit F4 to target a person to heal. In ESO Healing fucking sucked because people do nothing but moving all the time so you have to be spinning in circles trying to target them. It sucked and is why my wife and I do not play ESO anymore. Neverwinter is also the same and that was not fun.
Let's just wait and see. A hybrid where you can tab target or hit F4 to lock on to a player, or click on them for PVE content is a plus.
<img src="https://vk.com/images/stickers/3363/64.png" alt="" />
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5602" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5545" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5541" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5440" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5297" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
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Way to battle an overreaction WITH an overreaction. That’ll teach me! By the way I’m pretty sure most hardcore gamer’s know Overwatch was part of the cancelled Titan project. That can’t be 100 percent proven, but I’d say it’s pretty safe to assume from leaked info over the last 3 to 5 years before the overwatch release. As for whether Blizzard is making another MMORPG, If you don’t think Blizzard is going to fight for that market they have dominated for over a decade and has made them billions…well you have no hope brother and no reason to discuss further.
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Ok lets now relax and quit with the overreactions. I think that this point lets wait for Alpha and Beta to play out to see what they come up with. You and I both have strong opinions. Let’s agree that Tab Target and Action Combat have their Pros and Cons and lets agree that people have their preference what they like and that too is a valid point of view.
If we can do that I think we can discuss the pros and cons of Ashes once we really see what the combat is like in a civil and respectful manner.
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I totally agree there ARE people that enjoy and prefer tab target…I just don’t think they are in the majority which is what should matter when making a game and wanting it to be successful.
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We are just going to have to agree to disagree because you take the largest MMORPG Population right now which is in WOW and the large majority of that player base will never play a action combat game. You can say yes they will, BUT the fact remains how many of them went to Action Combat games didnt like it went back to WOW, or wouldnt play an action combat game. Personally the countless people I know just will not play an action combat game. I keep in touch with nearly 100 people I have played with at one time or another, most MMORPG players cannot say that.
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Just because its the prettiest turd in town doesn't diminish the fact its still a turd. Before you nerd rage over that comment...obviously I'm exaggerating a bit. Wow was definitely revolutionary in it's day and a VERY well made game, but it is now outdated in many ways including it's combat. Yes it may still be the most popular MMORPG currently which is a testament to how good it was for it's time, but also a testament to how bad games are that have been released since. All copies of something that was perfected that they will never be able to duplicate fully. I expect much much more out of an MMORPG right now and combat is a huge piece that I expect massive improvement.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5607" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5602" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5545" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5541" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5440" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/tab-target-really/page/3/#post-5297" rel="nofollow">beretta7 wrote:</a></div>
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Way to battle an overreaction WITH an overreaction. That’ll teach me! By the way I’m pretty sure most hardcore gamer’s know Overwatch was part of the cancelled Titan project. That can’t be 100 percent proven, but I’d say it’s pretty safe to assume from leaked info over the last 3 to 5 years before the overwatch release. As for whether Blizzard is making another MMORPG, If you don’t think Blizzard is going to fight for that market they have dominated for over a decade and has made them billions…well you have no hope brother and no reason to discuss further.
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Ok lets now relax and quit with the overreactions. I think that this point lets wait for Alpha and Beta to play out to see what they come up with. You and I both have strong opinions. Let’s agree that Tab Target and Action Combat have their Pros and Cons and lets agree that people have their preference what they like and that too is a valid point of view.
If we can do that I think we can discuss the pros and cons of Ashes once we really see what the combat is like in a civil and respectful manner.
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I totally agree there ARE people that enjoy and prefer tab target…I just don’t think they are in the majority which is what should matter when making a game and wanting it to be successful.
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We are just going to have to agree to disagree because you take the largest MMORPG Population right now which is in WOW and the large majority of that player base will never play a action combat game. You can say yes they will, BUT the fact remains how many of them went to Action Combat games didnt like it went back to WOW, or wouldnt play an action combat game. Personally the countless people I know just will not play an action combat game. I keep in touch with nearly 100 people I have played with at one time or another, most MMORPG players cannot say that.
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Just because its the prettiest turd in town doesn’t diminish the fact its still a turd. Before you nerd rage over that comment…obviously I’m exaggerating a bit. Wow was definitely revolutionary in it’s day and a VERY well made game, but it is now outdated in many ways including it’s combat. Yes it may still be the most popular MMORPG currently which is a testament to how good it was for it’s time, but also a testament to how bad games are that have been released since. All copies of something that was perfected that they will never be able to duplicate fully. I expect much much more out of an MMORPG right now and combat is a huge piece that I expect massive improvement.
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I would stay the the Combat has devalued into nothing more than a hack n slash game like many MMORPGs out there because their focus on speed runs. Grab up pack after mob Pack, AOE Shit down, repeat until the end of the dungeon. During Vanilla it was a hell of a lot better, yes slower paced BUT you had more focus on your role and its abilities than what WOW has devalued into. I Agree its devalued into a piece of shit. My friend and I just had a fight over this the other day, he still kisses blizzards ass over WOW and does not see that it went from something that streamline so much that even the developers said they went overboard.
My thing with action combat is the consistent movement of players make it impossible for healers to heal because you have to keep mousing around to get a little reticle over them so the solution for developers is just make AOE heals. Yea there are still single target heals but if players are moving too much healers get pissed. So less healers. In ESO it took 2 or 3 hours to get into an instance there because no one wants to heal in ESO because of this problem. Add to that as a tank its just as bad because if you move you have to always need to make sure you are targeting the boss. Tab Targeting resolves this entire problem.
Now if this game was going to be solely PVP, Action Combat makes a lot of sense because it does push people to be more skilled. The problem is Ashes is tried to have both PVP and PVE in the game. Add to that Instanced Dungeons. In any MMO there is already a shortage of Tanks and healers, making it action combat makes it worse Add to that there is talk about keeping the Trinity. If you had Dungeons but made them hack n slash like Diablo is, or something to the affect you dont need the trinity then you can go to action combat because then every player is responsible to do as much damage as fast as they can and heal themselves. Problem is then you get Zerg PVE and PVP.
I played countless MMORPGS. I been around the community. Unless Ashes wants to be a niche game it has to accept certain facts. For example the PVP community is not as large as people think it is. Most PVPers now play MOBAs. Having Open world PVP with Full Loot is going to be an extremely low population game. I can hear it now the PVPers wanting a Full loot PVP game like UO was. Action Combat players saying Tab targeting sucks, and tab targeting people saying it is the only way to go.
Personally I like the idea of a Hybrid system because if you do want Instances and a Trinity setup You dont want to alienate people know how fucking impossible it is to tank and heal in Action Combat MMORPGs. I know I played them, and I been tanking and healing since Vanilla WOW. I refuse to tank or heal in ESO or Neverwinter both games I play from time to time just for the hell of it. Yet I tank and heal just fine in FFXIV Right now.
I also think you need more than just a system where you have combos and stand in one place, you want players to move you want them to use abilities that are not just Damage related or Healing related. You want them to use more abilities like sheep, or a defensive cooldown at a critical time. Even if you dont want 40 abilities on your bars, even if you want 15 with another 5 to 7 situational. You want the combat to have a flow to it and not Tab 1,2,3,4,5 or keeping a target T over a object and mash your mouse buttons QERF and be jumping around like a jack rabbit which happens a lot in ESO dungeons which is funny.
I have seen World of Warcraft mentioned numerous times in this thread. There are few that would argue it has not dominated the market. Even if they never liked it, or what it has devolved into, the numbers speak for themselves. Warcraft has changed tremendously over the years. All for one purpose. Profitability. The game has went from trying to be as realistic as possible to as accessible to the masses as possible. The number of years in development only shows the changes to cater to the casual player. Legion is the penultimate expression of that. Everyone gets a Legendary, no work needed. (A Legendary from an Emissary Cache for doing 4 simple quests? Really?) There are things Blizzard still does a phenomenal job at, such as story. For a theme park, it can be one fun ride in that aspect. It will continue to change, and adapt to keep the current player base content. Yet it will never go back to making things more difficult out of fear of alienating it's remaining base. Which is both aging (less prone to change), and significantly invested (/played shows years, not days for most). Yes, Titan was their next MMORPG, in fact they even at the time of development stated that if they didn't try to make a Warcraft killer, someone else would. That was before Activision. That was before they were a subsidiary with fiduciary responsibilities beholden to a company known more for the bottom line, than anything else. No, they are not making any new MMORPG that might interfere with Warcraft's revenue. Instead they will look at other niches to fill. Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm, Overwatch, Starcraft Remastered, etc
I honestly have not played a free aim MMORPG, so I shall not make any comment about which is better. Especially since it would be biased due to my disdain for FPS Twitch based games. I am more interested in story, and tactics (such as Starcraft).
As far as I can see, two things that pertain to the this. First is immersion, which Steve has spoken as the basis of his preference of video games over pen and paper games. I entirely see how a free aim system could be more immersive, giving you more of a feeling of being that character. Just as I can see others having that immersion broken by a UI that is frustrating, and not as accessible as other options. All things considered then, targeting as an immersion factor is a personal preference, so not one that I see Intrepid using for their decision making. The second, and the one that I believe matters to Intrepid is that they wish to put the word Massive back into MMORPG. That does not happen by catering to a smaller demographic. I have zero doubt they have done far more market research than any of us posting in this thread combined. To be massive, means to lure the masses. The WoW killer, which is an eventuality, is not going to be so because it has a different combat system. Otherwise it would not still be considered such a dominant force in the genre. It is the other aspects of Ashes that are likely to pull a good portion of Blizzard's long time player base.
There is no "perfect game", as we define perfect based on our own biases. There can be a perfect balance. Let's see what Intrepid's Hybrid system is like.
Locke