Weightless projectiles travel forever like laser bullets
I think that was an easy way to write the code. But is fun too. Probably we will not see it in AoC.
It wasn't even about the projectiles. I'd really have to doublecheck it, but I feel like at least on some version of the game you had a cast snap distance, where if you went over that distance the cast of your attacker would cancel. Now this won't leave my head, cause I can't remember it for sure
Yes, you could indeed cancel skills casts by going out of the maximum range for the cast to resolve fast enough before around 51% of the total cast time, it was just uncommon for characters to have enough movements speed to outrun peoples cast other than daggers or Kamaels with blink.
It worked for all versions ,here are some examples:
This thread needs to be locked because it’s devolved into conjecture.
Here’s science, one combat system uses more fine tuned motor skills than the other. The other has that work coded into the game for you.
Both require a data driven intelligence to play.
That data is in the visual effects, sound, and combat text.
Depending on the mobs AI, both require a tactile-kinesthetic memorization of a sequence, other wise known as a rotation.
Meaningful boss fights come down to Intrepids ability to design good AI, not the actual combat system.
You can be a more skilled action player, it doesn’t mean you posses more intelligence then a tab player. But tab doesn’t require the fine tuned motor skills an action combat system requires.
That’s just how they’re built.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I was able to kite satisfactorily in NWO. I dunno that it really matters much if you can target lock while not facing your opponent in Tab Target.
Action Combat is more focused on player twitch skills. I think we don't need walls of text to argue that point.
You know about them now, because I had to explain them to you. You didn't know about them, because your original comment on tab target game made it o obvious you didn't know about them (waiting for a skill to come off cooldown).
As I said, you cant look at a video to determine what is and is not fast paced. Of the two videos you linked the player in EQ2 has to make more actions per second than the NWO example - and these are examples YOU picked to illustrate your point, not mine (I am familiar with both games). While actions per second is not a metric I have ever seen used outside of RTS games, it is the appropriate metric to use when the accusation is that the game is slow.
Also, not only was there more actions per second in the EQ2 example that YOU provided to back up YOUR point, but they were taking on easy content that they have out geared, and are half ass'ing it. The player is clicking about half of their abilities - basically playing one handed (not going to ask what they are doing with the other hand).
Also, the class in question is one of the slower classes to play.
Sure NWO LOOKS busier, and as I keep saying, you are only concerned with how it looks.
EQ2 PLAYS faster, but you seem to lot be concerned with that at all. You are concerned with what LOOKS better, not with what PLAYS better.
Again, if you want to say you like action games because they LOOK better, and LOOK faster, have at it. Do not say they are faster, or that the combat is faster, because that is outright incorrect. In some games, some of the time, action may be faster - but in some games, some of the time, tab is faster. This is simply NOT one of the differences between these two combat systems.
1, we are talking about top end content. I have said many times that the value of tab target is in the content it allows for. As such, don't judge the game as a whole until you are taking on raid content (I would be as shocked as Fry if you get that far). You know it won't go well for you if you come here telling me about the level 8 skeletons you fought, and how easy they were.
2, you want to say tab target games are not deep, feel free to post screenshots of all of the pages you have to put AA/character advancement points in to. From memory, there are like 13 different pages right now, if you include tradeskills.
I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.
Guess I'll just ask you anyway.
If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?
This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.
You know about them now, because I had to explain them to you. You didn't know about them, because your original comment on tab target game made it o obvious you didn't know about them (waiting for a skill to come off cooldown).
As I said, you cant look at a video to determine what is and is not fast paced. Of the two videos you linked the player in EQ2 has to make more actions per second than the NWO example - and these are examples YOU picked to illustrate your point, not mine (I am familiar with both games). While actions per second is not a metric I have ever seen used outside of RTS games, it is the appropriate metric to use when the accusation is that the game is slow.
Also, not only was there more actions per second in the EQ2 example that YOU provided to back up YOUR point, but they were taking on easy content that they have out geared, and are half ass'ing it. The player is clicking about half of their abilities - basically playing one handed (not going to ask what they are doing with the other hand).
Also, the class in question is one of the slower classes to play.
Sure NWO LOOKS busier, and as I keep saying, you are only concerned with how it looks.
EQ2 PLAYS faster, but you seem to lot be concerned with that at all. You are concerned with what LOOKS better, not with what PLAYS better.
Again, if you want to say you like action games because they LOOK better, and LOOK faster, have at it. Do not say they are faster, or that the combat is faster, because that is outright incorrect. In some games, some of the time, action may be faster - but in some games, some of the time, tab is faster. This is simply NOT one of the differences between these two combat systems.
You are so stuck in your mind about defending tab target it is actually insane. I've always known about ability ques not from you telling me. ability ques DO NOT CHANGE COMBAT NOR EFFECT COMBAT so there for not something important id be using as a point to defend tab target.
Again when I talk about speed it doesn't need to be sonic but there is a huge difference when you have full control and its your actions that are needed in a fight. Unlike tab target games where you can run in a straights line not look at any of your target and the game does more then half the work for you as all you have to do is be near the mob and press the attack button.
How it looks is important it gives you an idea of what is going on and what characters can do. How does everquest look, static without much of a reason needed to move unless its during a mechanic. I'm not talking about dashing for dodging everywhere, you don't even need to control your camera in EQ2 the game is doing things for you. The moment the game does everything for you its a less immersive experience. Sure you can say maybe you have more reason to move in high end content (akin to the dragon L2 raid boss) though unsure if they have anything akin to aoe things you need to constantly dodge in EQ2. But the majority of content wouldn't be true to that because tab isn't designed for that. There is a reason when a mob attacks you aren't getting a chance to dodge (using a buff isn't a dodge but ateleport would be a fair dodge though) just like your abilities everything will auto hit you.
Again what I see is people standing still using their skills, moves auto hitting their target, little instances that involve more mobility (be it dodging a basic attack, aoe area you need to escape from, use of verticality, positioning for your attacks, etc), having no need to face the direction of the enemy you want to attack, no reason to aim any of your abilities.
These make the fight look like its almost 20 years dated and people wouldn't see gameplay like that and think this is exciting. Yes there is some flash in having action combat but that flash seen is do to changes to the gameplay experience. You can see your efforts of fighting and dodging abilities much better (ie mob is winding up t do this move O i just barely managed to dodge this beam, or mob was about to do this move and i countered its attack right before it went off), There is a much different feeling when you play a game and you are not bound by a world cooldown AND you need to be landing the attacks yourself against the mob it feels better and it just is more fun. So you do a high end raid with action and you are going to just get a better experience again as long as you have good designers.
You keep mistaking my comments on action vrs tab like as if I'm trying to say tab is not deep and takes 0 skill or thought. Again of course tab has good systems, you can make good builds, good mechs, etc. What I'm saying is action can do all of that and has another layer devs can work with to make a better experience with better mobility and more immersive combat. The more tools a dev has the better content they can make....
Have there ever been any pure action combat mmorpg that have been any good?
you should know about them unless you have been living under a rock ESO, NWO, BDO, Lost ark, New world, tera, guild wars 2. There are other ones as well though i don't feel they are as big but i could be wrong.
Yes but they suffer from other issues P2W plaguing a lot of them, lack of content, and other flaws in some cases game to game.
Have there ever been any pure action combat mmorpg that have been any good?
your question is disingenuous. You're blurring the lines on purpose, and your question is loaded with the assumption that action combat MMORPGs fail due to having action combat, which is not true.
But you know what, I will go with it anyway, and I will answer your question.
BDO for example has great action combat, but the rest of the game is absolute ass. The moment I realized I'd have to swipe to stay competitive I quit. It didn't matter how good the combat was, it just simply didn't worth it.
Unfortunately many other action combat games have the same fate (probably all of them) as they are often developed for a completely different market, and the fact that they release in the west is just a byproduct.
This might come off as shocking to you, but MMORPGs are MORE than JUST combat.
Ashes of creation is probably the first MMORPG where action combat is going to be a significant part of the game (due to the combat's hybrid nature), and at the same time all the other systems are also very promising (and no P2W).
I prefer action combat over tab targeting, but if I had to pick from tab target, action combat, or hybrid, I'd always go with hybrid.
I have faith that the team can create something that's not only unique and works well, but also allows both tab target players and action combat players to find what they are looking for.
Keep in mind that combat is important, but so are all the other systems.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Again...BDO Action combat is fine for a Hack & Slash, but sucks for an MMORPG.
Yes, you could indeed cancel skills casts by going out of the maximum range for the cast to resolve fast enough before around 51% of the total cast time, it was just uncommon for characters to have enough movements speed to outrun peoples cast other than daggers or Kamaels with blink.
It worked for all versions
Again...BDO Action combat is fine for a Hack & Slash, but sucks for an MMORPG.
You're treating your preference like as if it was facts, when it's literally just an opinion and it's not worth more than mine or anyone else's.
I guess here I could say "Tab target and using my mouse button to choose targets is good for old school turn based RPGs (such as dragon age, KOTOR), but sucks for an MMORPG". This is just a sneaky attempt to nullify arguments by calling my example "not good".
In my opinion tab targeting is absolute cheeks because there is barely any gap between the skill floor and the skill ceiling, does this make it bad? No, of course not. It's popular for a reason, because it's easy to pick up and easy to master, and accessibility helps the more casual player base.
That doesn't make it good, nor bad. It's just different.
And do you know who else likes action combat? Steven.
And again, the reason why BDO is doing poorly is not the action combat. If you had some experience you would know how bad the majority of that game is, and that combat is almost single handedly carrying it.
What I like most about tab targeting is it’s RPG core - it’s based on my character’s skill not my own. As my character evolves they miss less and hit harder.
With action it’s more about my skill as a player. Missing strikes in action is just a weird concept if I as a player are directing those strikes.
That said, the system I prefer most is action with an optional ‘lock on target’ function as in Neverwinter and Witcher 3.
What I like most about tab targeting is it’s RPG core - it’s based on my character’s skill not my own. As my character evolves they miss less and hit harder.
With action it’s more about my skill as a player. Missing strikes in action is just a weird concept if I as a player are directing those strikes.
That said, the system I prefer most is action with an optional ‘lock on target’ function as in Neverwinter and Witcher 3.
What i prefer is both the action elements and rpg stats. It needs both them. Which includes missing and attack if you miss your spell and missing stat wise. Which is also something done in BDO even if they do it poorly.
That said, the system I prefer most is action with an optional ‘lock on target’ function as in Neverwinter
And here I thought NWO was purely action, yet this is also just hybrid. Or are you talking about non-online Neverwinter?
Lock on doesn't make it hybrid if when you use a spell it can still miss or hit some other object. Also I don't remember any lock on in NWO.
A tab target element that would make anything hybrid if they have a lot of those elements in the gaemplay. Would be You select your target with your cursor or tab. You use your kill and the ability curves towards the target or hits it instantly never missing (not talking about evasion stats).
Lock on, heavy targeting or soft targeting are all action based elements as it requires you to use some form of skill and hand eye coordination to attack your enemy.
A tab target element that would make anything hybrid if they have a lot of those elements in the gaemplay. Would be You select your target with your cursor or tab. You use your kill and the ability curves towards the target or hits it instantly never missing (not talking about evasion stats).
Lock on, heavy targeting or soft targeting are all action based elements as it requires you to use some form of skill and hand eye coordination to attack your enemy.
I just call that shit hybrid, just like Dygz likes to call BDO hack&slash To me the only true pure action game is one where there's no targeting at all. Anything else is a hybrid, same as most tab games are hybrids too because they have action skills. New World is omega hybrid too, with its shitty healing.
Hybrid would be have a large amount of skills that you must aim to hit your target. Including selecting a area to aoe, shooting arrows or fireballs (etc) at your target with travel time and a chance the player can miss the spell, your melee attack requiring you face your target as you control the camera and attacking it within distance while having a chance to miss if the mobs moves out of the way (This does not relate to tab target as there isn't a physical reason why your sword needs to hit a mob that is not how the programming works)
Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.
Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds.
Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.
Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay.
That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%.
If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.
If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games.
Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation.
You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob.
Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games.
Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games.
As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill.
A tab target element that would make anything hybrid if they have a lot of those elements in the gaemplay. Would be You select your target with your cursor or tab. You use your kill and the ability curves towards the target or hits it instantly never missing (not talking about evasion stats).
Lock on, heavy targeting or soft targeting are all action based elements as it requires you to use some form of skill and hand eye coordination to attack your enemy.
I just call that shit hybrid, just like Dygz likes to call BDO hack&slash To me the only true pure action game is one where there's no targeting at all. Anything else is a hybrid, same as most tab games are hybrids too because they have action skills. New World is omega hybrid too, with its shitty healing.
That isn't hybrid though there is a big difference between tab combat and action combat with targeting.
Tab - There is no need to aim. Once you use your ability and it goes off the effect of the shot (ie fireball moving towards the enemy) doesn't matter its only there for effect. No matter what the spell will be hitting the target regardless of players or terrain if it has already gone off.
Action targeting - There is a need to aim. Your ability will need to be used on the target with other enemies and terrain effecting if your shot will hit or not. You will need to focus on your target and as well predict where they will be moving if they are not in line of sight and try to land on shot when they are in the open.
Two vidoes showing action vrs tab target, the difference is clear as day between two ranger classes. Tab no aim required you just run around and press your rng skills and everything hits. Other you need to focus a lot more on landing the shots then just pressing the button and kiting.
Hybrid would be have a large amount of skills that you must aim to hit your target. Including selecting a area to aoe, shooting arrows or fireballs (etc) at your target with travel time and a chance the player can miss the spell, your melee attack requiring you face your target as you control the camera and attacking it within distance while having a chance to miss if the mobs moves out of the way (This does not relate to tab target as there isn't a physical reason why your sword needs to hit a mob that is not how the programming works)
Eh, to me, as long as you have any aim assist in an "action mmo" - it's hybrid. I'm just an extremist like that Same on the other side of the scale. If a "tab mmo" has action skills - it's a hybrid (imo). And the more cases of either of those things are - the more hybrid the games will be to me.
Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.
Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds.
Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.
Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay.
That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%.
If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.
If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games.
Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation.
You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob.
Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games.
Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games.
As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill.
I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack.
In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks.
I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons.
Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills.
Hybrid would be have a large amount of skills that you must aim to hit your target. Including selecting a area to aoe, shooting arrows or fireballs (etc) at your target with travel time and a chance the player can miss the spell, your melee attack requiring you face your target as you control the camera and attacking it within distance while having a chance to miss if the mobs moves out of the way (This does not relate to tab target as there isn't a physical reason why your sword needs to hit a mob that is not how the programming works)
Eh, to me, as long as you have any aim assist in an "action mmo" - it's hybrid. I'm just an extremist like that Same on the other side of the scale. If a "tab mmo" has action skills - it's a hybrid (imo). And the more cases of either of those things are - the more hybrid the games will be to me.
That isn't how it works though xD, that is like saying COD is hybrid because you have aim assist on controller. You can see the clear difference in the two vidoes i showed, you can't compare those two in terms of combat or that is just being disingenuous. One the person is running around kiting not aiming anything and using their abietites, where ethe other the person needs to has some amount of aim and sense of direction which hugely changes the feel and flow of a fight.
I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that.
Uh, no. You absolutely can miss in tab, which is why there was a hit cap in WoW. Yes, your attacks are all (except aoe) auto directed at the target, but that doesn’t mean you would hit that target 100% of the time.
I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that.
Uh, no. You absolutely can miss in tab, which is why there was a hit cap in WoW. Yes, your attacks are all (except aoe) auto directed at the target, but that doesn’t mean you would hit that target 100% of the time.
What requires you to miss your target exactly what do you need to do. Lets see if we are on the same page or not.
Two vidoes showing action vrs tab target, the difference is clear as day between two ranger classes. Tab no aim required you just run around and press your rng skills and everything hits. Other you need to focus a lot more on landing the shots then just pressing the button and kiting.
That looks like an action camera that gives you a short target lock window to account for ping or whatever. To me that's more tab than me hitting an L2 dagger class that has passive detargeting skills on him which removes my target every other hit, so I have to retarget him constantly and that motherfucker is running real fast all over the place, while the dudes in that NWO video have over-a-second-long cast/atk animations.
Here's a "dance around a pillar" fight from L2's arena (watch at half speed for real in-game speed, cause the uploader sped it up). Constant movement, repositioning, terrain blocking, enemy movement prediction requirements and properly placed action-based blinks from the MC of the video in order to hit his enemy (4:55 timing) https://youtu.be/dhgSuVHNo0g?t=295
Yes, the attack will hit if you've finished your cast while your enemy is in full view, but at 5:28 you can see the mage using Steal Divinity, but nothing happens because the healer went behind the pillar and cast got cancelled. Environment gameplay. Hell, there's later even an action skill use that's also misses because of terrain.
And this is gameplay of a click-to-move "tab" mmo. I expect waaaay more action and movement from a true action mmo.
Also, that fight was against a healer, whose movement is more limited than that of a dagger/ranger/fighter classes.
Comments
lol
Yes, you could indeed cancel skills casts by going out of the maximum range for the cast to resolve fast enough before around 51% of the total cast time, it was just uncommon for characters to have enough movements speed to outrun peoples cast other than daggers or Kamaels with blink.
It worked for all versions ,here are some examples:
short-range skill: maximum range to start the cast 40, maximum range for the cast to resolve 400 http://l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=9
medium-range skill: maximum range to start the cast 600, maximum range for the cast to resolve 1100
http://l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=6
long-range skill: maximum range to start the cast 900, maximum range for the cast to resolve 1400
http://l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=1230
Aren't we all sinners?
Most intelligent comment here
Action Combat is more focused on player twitch skills. I think we don't need walls of text to argue that point.
You know about them now, because I had to explain them to you. You didn't know about them, because your original comment on tab target game made it o obvious you didn't know about them (waiting for a skill to come off cooldown).
As I said, you cant look at a video to determine what is and is not fast paced. Of the two videos you linked the player in EQ2 has to make more actions per second than the NWO example - and these are examples YOU picked to illustrate your point, not mine (I am familiar with both games). While actions per second is not a metric I have ever seen used outside of RTS games, it is the appropriate metric to use when the accusation is that the game is slow.
Also, not only was there more actions per second in the EQ2 example that YOU provided to back up YOUR point, but they were taking on easy content that they have out geared, and are half ass'ing it. The player is clicking about half of their abilities - basically playing one handed (not going to ask what they are doing with the other hand).
Also, the class in question is one of the slower classes to play.
Sure NWO LOOKS busier, and as I keep saying, you are only concerned with how it looks.
EQ2 PLAYS faster, but you seem to lot be concerned with that at all. You are concerned with what LOOKS better, not with what PLAYS better.
Again, if you want to say you like action games because they LOOK better, and LOOK faster, have at it. Do not say they are faster, or that the combat is faster, because that is outright incorrect. In some games, some of the time, action may be faster - but in some games, some of the time, tab is faster. This is simply NOT one of the differences between these two combat systems.
1, we are talking about top end content. I have said many times that the value of tab target is in the content it allows for. As such, don't judge the game as a whole until you are taking on raid content (I would be as shocked as Fry if you get that far). You know it won't go well for you if you come here telling me about the level 8 skeletons you fought, and how easy they were.
2, you want to say tab target games are not deep, feel free to post screenshots of all of the pages you have to put AA/character advancement points in to. From memory, there are like 13 different pages right now, if you include tradeskills.
I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.
Guess I'll just ask you anyway.
If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?
This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
You are so stuck in your mind about defending tab target it is actually insane. I've always known about ability ques not from you telling me. ability ques DO NOT CHANGE COMBAT NOR EFFECT COMBAT so there for not something important id be using as a point to defend tab target.
Again when I talk about speed it doesn't need to be sonic but there is a huge difference when you have full control and its your actions that are needed in a fight. Unlike tab target games where you can run in a straights line not look at any of your target and the game does more then half the work for you as all you have to do is be near the mob and press the attack button.
How it looks is important it gives you an idea of what is going on and what characters can do. How does everquest look, static without much of a reason needed to move unless its during a mechanic. I'm not talking about dashing for dodging everywhere, you don't even need to control your camera in EQ2 the game is doing things for you. The moment the game does everything for you its a less immersive experience. Sure you can say maybe you have more reason to move in high end content (akin to the dragon L2 raid boss) though unsure if they have anything akin to aoe things you need to constantly dodge in EQ2. But the majority of content wouldn't be true to that because tab isn't designed for that. There is a reason when a mob attacks you aren't getting a chance to dodge (using a buff isn't a dodge but ateleport would be a fair dodge though) just like your abilities everything will auto hit you.
Again what I see is people standing still using their skills, moves auto hitting their target, little instances that involve more mobility (be it dodging a basic attack, aoe area you need to escape from, use of verticality, positioning for your attacks, etc), having no need to face the direction of the enemy you want to attack, no reason to aim any of your abilities.
These make the fight look like its almost 20 years dated and people wouldn't see gameplay like that and think this is exciting. Yes there is some flash in having action combat but that flash seen is do to changes to the gameplay experience. You can see your efforts of fighting and dodging abilities much better (ie mob is winding up t do this move O i just barely managed to dodge this beam, or mob was about to do this move and i countered its attack right before it went off), There is a much different feeling when you play a game and you are not bound by a world cooldown AND you need to be landing the attacks yourself against the mob it feels better and it just is more fun. So you do a high end raid with action and you are going to just get a better experience again as long as you have good designers.
You keep mistaking my comments on action vrs tab like as if I'm trying to say tab is not deep and takes 0 skill or thought. Again of course tab has good systems, you can make good builds, good mechs, etc. What I'm saying is action can do all of that and has another layer devs can work with to make a better experience with better mobility and more immersive combat. The more tools a dev has the better content they can make....
you should know about them unless you have been living under a rock ESO, NWO, BDO, Lost ark, New world, tera, guild wars 2. There are other ones as well though i don't feel they are as big but i could be wrong.
Yes but they suffer from other issues P2W plaguing a lot of them, lack of content, and other flaws in some cases game to game.
your question is disingenuous. You're blurring the lines on purpose, and your question is loaded with the assumption that action combat MMORPGs fail due to having action combat, which is not true.
But you know what, I will go with it anyway, and I will answer your question.
BDO for example has great action combat, but the rest of the game is absolute ass. The moment I realized I'd have to swipe to stay competitive I quit. It didn't matter how good the combat was, it just simply didn't worth it.
Unfortunately many other action combat games have the same fate (probably all of them) as they are often developed for a completely different market, and the fact that they release in the west is just a byproduct.
This might come off as shocking to you, but MMORPGs are MORE than JUST combat.
Ashes of creation is probably the first MMORPG where action combat is going to be a significant part of the game (due to the combat's hybrid nature), and at the same time all the other systems are also very promising (and no P2W).
I prefer action combat over tab targeting, but if I had to pick from tab target, action combat, or hybrid, I'd always go with hybrid.
I have faith that the team can create something that's not only unique and works well, but also allows both tab target players and action combat players to find what they are looking for.
Keep in mind that combat is important, but so are all the other systems.
I'm not crazy after all
You're treating your preference like as if it was facts, when it's literally just an opinion and it's not worth more than mine or anyone else's.
I guess here I could say "Tab target and using my mouse button to choose targets is good for old school turn based RPGs (such as dragon age, KOTOR), but sucks for an MMORPG". This is just a sneaky attempt to nullify arguments by calling my example "not good".
In my opinion tab targeting is absolute cheeks because there is barely any gap between the skill floor and the skill ceiling, does this make it bad? No, of course not. It's popular for a reason, because it's easy to pick up and easy to master, and accessibility helps the more casual player base.
That doesn't make it good, nor bad. It's just different.
And do you know who else likes action combat? Steven.
And again, the reason why BDO is doing poorly is not the action combat. If you had some experience you would know how bad the majority of that game is, and that combat is almost single handedly carrying it.
With action it’s more about my skill as a player. Missing strikes in action is just a weird concept if I as a player are directing those strikes.
That said, the system I prefer most is action with an optional ‘lock on target’ function as in Neverwinter and Witcher 3.
What i prefer is both the action elements and rpg stats. It needs both them. Which includes missing and attack if you miss your spell and missing stat wise. Which is also something done in BDO even if they do it poorly.
Lock on doesn't make it hybrid if when you use a spell it can still miss or hit some other object. Also I don't remember any lock on in NWO.
A tab target element that would make anything hybrid if they have a lot of those elements in the gaemplay. Would be You select your target with your cursor or tab. You use your kill and the ability curves towards the target or hits it instantly never missing (not talking about evasion stats).
Lock on, heavy targeting or soft targeting are all action based elements as it requires you to use some form of skill and hand eye coordination to attack your enemy.
Rangers can lock onto a target.
If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games.
Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation.
You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob.
Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games.
Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games.
As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill.
That isn't hybrid though there is a big difference between tab combat and action combat with targeting.
Tab - There is no need to aim. Once you use your ability and it goes off the effect of the shot (ie fireball moving towards the enemy) doesn't matter its only there for effect. No matter what the spell will be hitting the target regardless of players or terrain if it has already gone off.
Action targeting - There is a need to aim. Your ability will need to be used on the target with other enemies and terrain effecting if your shot will hit or not. You will need to focus on your target and as well predict where they will be moving if they are not in line of sight and try to land on shot when they are in the open.
Two vidoes showing action vrs tab target, the difference is clear as day between two ranger classes. Tab no aim required you just run around and press your rng skills and everything hits. Other you need to focus a lot more on landing the shots then just pressing the button and kiting.
I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack.
In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks.
I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons.
Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills.
That isn't how it works though xD, that is like saying COD is hybrid because you have aim assist on controller. You can see the clear difference in the two vidoes i showed, you can't compare those two in terms of combat or that is just being disingenuous. One the person is running around kiting not aiming anything and using their abietites, where ethe other the person needs to has some amount of aim and sense of direction which hugely changes the feel and flow of a fight.
Uh, no. You absolutely can miss in tab, which is why there was a hit cap in WoW. Yes, your attacks are all (except aoe) auto directed at the target, but that doesn’t mean you would hit that target 100% of the time.
What requires you to miss your target exactly what do you need to do. Lets see if we are on the same page or not.
That looks like an action camera that gives you a short target lock window to account for ping or whatever. To me that's more tab than me hitting an L2 dagger class that has passive detargeting skills on him which removes my target every other hit, so I have to retarget him constantly and that motherfucker is running real fast all over the place, while the dudes in that NWO video have over-a-second-long cast/atk animations.
Here's a "dance around a pillar" fight from L2's arena (watch at half speed for real in-game speed, cause the uploader sped it up). Constant movement, repositioning, terrain blocking, enemy movement prediction requirements and properly placed action-based blinks from the MC of the video in order to hit his enemy (4:55 timing)
Yes, the attack will hit if you've finished your cast while your enemy is in full view, but at 5:28 you can see the mage using Steal Divinity, but nothing happens because the healer went behind the pillar and cast got cancelled. Environment gameplay. Hell, there's later even an action skill use that's also misses because of terrain.
And this is gameplay of a click-to-move "tab" mmo. I expect waaaay more action and movement from a true action mmo.
Also, that fight was against a healer, whose movement is more limited than that of a dagger/ranger/fighter classes.
You have a non-zero statistical chance for an attack to miss or be dodged. You mitigated this chance by stacking a secondary stat called ‘hit rating.’
Just an extension of the core Dex modifiers from PnP.