I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Mag7spy

Norkore wrote: »

this dumb action vs tab fight some of you participate in is absolutely useless. the game will be hybrid, it's one of the core pillars of the game. you're arguing about something that will NOT change.

it's hybrid, it will have both action combat and tab targeting. move on.

This convo isn't about the game should be tab or action its about showing action is just as effective as tab and can make more dynamic content for small and large scale raids.

Technically not what has to do with OP tbh though.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Yes action combat is better it has more layers to it

Actually, tab has far more layers and nuance to it, action just has more flashiness and a more immediate response to player input.

The bulk of action games aren't even a scratch on the depth of most tab target games.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Just to make this short form, your comment on abilities causing miss can be applied to action as a buff the same way as tab target.

Yeah, it could - but that's MY point.

It is in both games, and as such YOU should not be using it as a "action combat is better because dodge" as you have been doing.

It is in both types of games already.

Mag7spy wrote: »

You keep bringing up stripping its like you have not been listening to my points about the conversation. I strip it down for you to show action can do anything.

I don't think you get what I am saying by stripping action combat down.

Your answer to how to get action combat to do many things that tab combat can do is to REMOVE aspects of action combat. This is a BAD thing to do, and will result in players LEAVING the game. You DO NOT take aspects of a class kit away from your players and expect them to stay playing the game.

You also keep going on about dodge, and how you think it is some sort of win for action combat that they "could" have both the dodge that they have (where your character moves in the appropriate direction), and abilities as per tab combat games. Sure, action games *could* have both. None do, but they *could*.

You consider this a win for action combat, yet seem to have totally ignored the point that tab target games ALREADY have both. You are essentially saying action combat is better because in theory it could have the same thing tab target already has in practice.

Do you not understand how that makes you sound? How much it undermines any potential point at all that you may one day come up with? You need to stop and think about arguments before you make them, to make sure you are picking ones that you can back up - and the argument that action is better because it can in theory have both dodge types when tab target already has both is simply not an argument you can back up (though, to your credit, you haven't even attempted to back this stance up with any reasoning - presumably because you have no reasoning behind it).

A lot of my tab target friends have long had the opinion that action combat games are simply for people that don't want to think (or can't think). They replace the need to think with a moderate level of twitch ability. I never really agreed with the notion that action combat was for people that didn't want to think - but after discussions like this where you can't see things like the above, I am starting to reconsider.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Yes action combat is better it has more layers to it

Actually, tab has far more layers and nuance to it, action just has more flashiness and a more immediate response to player input.

The bulk of action games aren't even a scratch on the depth of most tab target games.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Just to make this short form, your comment on abilities causing miss can be applied to action as a buff the same way as tab target.

Yeah, it could - but that's MY point.

It is in both games, and as such YOU should not be using it as a "action combat is better because dodge" as you have been doing.

It is in both types of games already.

Mag7spy wrote: »

You keep bringing up stripping its like you have not been listening to my points about the conversation. I strip it down for you to show action can do anything.

I don't think you get what I am saying by stripping action combat down.

Your answer to how to get action combat to do many things that tab combat can do is to REMOVE aspects of action combat. This is a BAD thing to do, and will result in players LEAVING the game. You DO NOT take aspects of a class kit away from your players and expect them to stay playing the game.

You also keep going on about dodge, and how you think it is some sort of win for action combat that they "could" have both the dodge that they have (where your character moves in the appropriate direction), and abilities as per tab combat games. Sure, action games *could* have both. None do, but they *could*.

You consider this a win for action combat, yet seem to have totally ignored the point that tab target games ALREADY have both. You are essentially saying action combat is better because in theory it could have the same thing tab target already has in practice.

Do you not understand how that makes you sound? How much it undermines any potential point at all that you may one day come up with? You need to stop and think about arguments before you make them, to make sure you are picking ones that you can back up - and the argument that action is better because it can in theory have both dodge types when tab target already has both is simply not an argument you can back up (though, to your credit, you haven't even attempted to back this stance up with any reasoning - presumably because you have no reasoning behind it).

A lot of my tab target friends have long had the opinion that action combat games are simply for people that don't want to think (or can't think). They replace the need to think with a moderate level of twitch ability. I never really agreed with the notion that action combat was for people that didn't want to think - but after discussions like this where you can't see things like the above, I am starting to reconsider.

Tab does not have more layers to it, we can easily look at the actual function of skills. Buffs, single target, Aoe target, aoe around character. No need to aim skills, worry about timing of skills, nor one being able to physically react to the skills. With action you need to be looking at your target, aiming skills, worrying about timing, can use your mobility, more fluidity when it comes to combat.

Again the point is action can do anything tab target does and more, I'm simply stating one of your points about dodging is something action can do and layer on action elements as well. Your point is action can't do what tab does and I'm clearly saying it can with an example.

You saying its a bad thing and keep thinking its removing aspects and that it will make players leave. That is false that is now how players look at content you are making an assumption as I feel you have not gotten that deep into action mmorpgs besides maybe a surface level. What does a action player want full control of their character in a fluid system. That means being able to have a game where you have a action camera, can move and attack, aim your shots, some form of mobility. Class kits are not being taken away from a character what are you talking about? Something being designed in a certain way and players tackling it in a certain way does not remove class kits.

What do you mean none do I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding what you are saying. Action mmorpgs have mechanics and dodging have you not played lost ark? The more mmorpgs that are released the more you will see on action combat, it is still young compared tot he many yaears of tab target mmorpgs, it is a clear evolution of the genre adding more action elements in mmorpgs.

I can't believe how stubborn you are to not understand what im getting at.... Action combat does EVERYTHING tab target does because tab target is a very basic system there is nothing advanced about it. Action combat adds more LAYERS of immersive difficulty to the game you need to aim your shots, you have elements of dodging and positioning on a much higher level then tab target, action camera adding more fluidity to the experience over having to either tab or click on the target to attack them.

Pressing a buff is not having both you are literarily hitting a button on the damn keyboard and 0 hand eye coordination is needed. You can't even give example of any content in tab target where you feel it is something action combat can't do. That is because action combat can do anything on the most basic level and it still will be more fun.

You - action combat can't do what tab target does.
Me - Literately saying its not theory and action combat has the same tools as tab target + MORE.

Your main example as far as I've seen about boss aggro and needing to have it face a position and not move much. Action combat has you covered and can do that easily. you want to add some dodge mechanics to that sure. Once boss gets staggered after some mech, people ahve to dodge some aoe including the tank. People reposition and allow tank to regain aggro and pull the boss back where it needs to be.

Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.

Ottobot

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can't even give example of any content in tab target where you feel it is something action combat can't do.

These people can't give examples because they don't know anything about action combat, or refuse to admit they want to play a low skill ceiling game. The original post even admitted that he doesn't want to react to what other players are doing by dodging or blocking.

nidriks

Vissox wrote: »

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

I've said this same thing from day one but I do think I am being stubborn.

My overriding impression of action combat is player characters jumping around like sonic the bloody hedgehog.

I do recognise that MMOs probably need to change rather than stay static though. I've always felt that if Intrepid could do something with action combat that I like then I can be happy. Saying that, I jumped into this game - right back at the start of kickstarter (been here a long time, folks) - because I liked the ideas that were being delivered outside of combat. I can possibly play this game in a way that doesn't need combat so much. I'm impressed enough with the world and it's potential and so combat can have some leeway for me.

I just watched the June update - my first re-foray in to Ashes content in about a year - and I'm impressed. I'm not seeing mad and jumpy combat and that pelases me. I shall see how it progresses but my first thought was that combat in Ashes is looking closer to something like WOW than it does some of these more recent, and somewhat Asian inspired, MMOs like Guild Wars 2 or Final Fantasy.

As I said, MMOs need to move forward and not be so static. The reason MMOs have stood still in the last 10 years (c'mon, they have) is because dev teams aren't progressing the genre. It's no good just making Everquest 2.5, however much I loved Everquest (and I did!). It's no good making WOW 1.5. One of the most painful things of recent MMO development, and probably the main reason MMOs have stood still, is that dev teams stick with the same old ideas time after time. It's a common adage that gamers will hope for the 'WOW successor' and an equally common adage that dev teams stick with what they think is working, and even if it's working on a much smaller scale in MMOs than the good old days.

If I'm not willing to accept change then I'm as bad as the dev teams I strongly criticise. I have to try and like action combat. If Intrepid can make those changes easier then that's great. I've believed they can do good since the first day I tuned in to this game. I'llw ait to see what they can do with their combat before I judge fully.

Solvryn

This thread needs to be locked because it’s devolved into conjecture.

Here’s science, one combat system uses more fine tuned motor skills than the other. The other has that work coded into the game for you.

Both require a data driven intelligence to play.

That data is in the visual effects, sound, and combat text.

Depending on the mobs AI, both require a tactile-kinesthetic memorization of a sequence, other wise known as a rotation.

Meaningful boss fights come down to Intrepids ability to design good AI, not the actual combat system.

You can be a more skilled action player, it doesn’t mean you posses more intelligence then a tab player. But tab doesn’t require the fine tuned motor skills an action combat system requires.

That’s just how they’re built.

Kreed

Ottobot wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can't even give example of any content in tab target where you feel it is something action combat can't do.

These people can't give examples because they don't know anything about action combat, or refuse to admit they want to play a low skill ceiling game. The original post even admitted that he doesn't want to react to what other players are doing by dodging or blocking.

I agree, there is a big chunk of them that are WoW fans that havent played anything else for the last 16 years and are just discovering action based for the first time. Or they are the other players that havent played anything else but Tab target and never tried Action base but are making a lot of assumptions about it.

Action base is the evolution of tab, the Hybrid system could be the evolution of action base this remains to be seen.

ItsFayne

"I dont like action combat, and so I wont play"

Ummmm ok? Not every game is for everyone. Also this is the AoC Forums, not an airport. You dont have to announce your departure.

Romancyy

If you cannot stand action combat at all then this isn't the game for you.

Ferryman

I personally liked what I saw on the stream. At least it gives hope that perhaps the right direction of the combat system is now found.

I am personally fine with tab or action or hybrid system. If the combat feels good that is enough for me.

I have enjoyed WoW's tab and TERA's action combat systems and both can be considered great in own categories. Additionally, GW2 has some kind of hybrid combat in use and therefore, perhaps some ideas could be loaned from these games.

Kreed

Otr wrote: »

From someone's thread a couple of years ago, I understand that young players like action combat and old players like tab targeting more.
I think players should be more flexible.

Who is not flexible? The old ones or the new ones?
And why? Are they selfish?
Or is it about how fast you can move the mouse and press keys as you get older?

I hate controllers... except in Dark Souls games. Might be age related. Thanks the Gods this is a mouse and keyboard game.
But I would accept controllers too if the battle would be like in Dark Souls... ^^

I find the exact opposite, I find its the younger players who get stuck on tab targeting because thats all they know since most of them play WoW to start...In general I find the older players have progressed on over time.

CROW3

Otr wrote: »

From someone's thread a couple of years ago, I understand that young players like action combat and old players like tab targeting more.

Some of us older folks like action combat too.

Noaani

Ottobot wrote: »

These people can't give examples because they don't know anything about action combat, or refuse to admit they want to play a low skill ceiling game.

Actually, the reason *I* wont give examples is because all action combat people want are videos. This tells me they are only concerned with how it looks, not how it plays.

An action combat player, based on my conversations with them over the last few months (as well as playing BDO for a while) would rather a game with a single button press causing your character to back flip over the opponent, backstab them with a dagger, combat roll back between their legs, use their dagger to pin one of the opponents feet to the ground, strafe to the right while pulling out a sword, perform a 520 degree spin while chopping off the opponents head.

Throw in some particle effects, camera shakes, and a weapon trail on the sword, and you'll have action combat players salivating.

A tab target player will look at that and be like - I only pressed one button...

While the above is obviously a slight exaggeration, it is only slight.

Action combat players consider character fluidity and animation to be combat depth. Tab target players consider player interaction to be combat depth.

Since a video simply can not convey the interaction a player has with the character, why would anyone bother linking on if they are talking about player interaction?

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.

I wouldn't say it is for slow paced gameplay, this depends on the class you pick.

As I said earlier, one class in EQ2 required the activation of an average of 2 abilities per second, along with positioning. Keep in mind, this is in a game where I have already (a dozen or more times) explained that rotations are not a thing.

Tab target doesn't have the movement that action combat generally has, but that doesn't mean it is slower paced.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.

Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds.

Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.

Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds.

Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.

Yeah, I am still convinced that Mag only has third party understanding of tab target games. Someone told him about them once and he formed an opinion on that - because his opinion on them basically every time he talks about them is just outright incorrect.

I've only ever come across one other poster on these forums that has been so incorrect about something, yet so adamant that they are correct.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Yeah, I am still convinced that Mag only has third party understanding of tab target games. Someone told him about them once and he formed an opinion on that - because his opinion on them basically every time he talks about them is just outright incorrect.

I've only ever come across one other poster on these forums that has been so incorrect about something, yet so adamant that they are correct.

I guess it's the same bias that I have towards L2 and its mechanics or some random wow andy's bias towards wow's stuff. Mag just can't bring himself to agree that someone might've had an experience differing from his own.

nidriks

Romancyy wrote: »

If you cannot stand action combat at all then this isn't the game for you.

I really don't think it's as simple as that. I know of two MMOs I played where you didn't have to do combat, or at least it didn't have to be your focus. In Vanguard I spent much of my time crafting. There were quests that were solely for crafters and with the right help I could complete them without having to kill anything.
In Star Wars Galaxies you could easily do anything without ever killing anything.

I'm still hoping that in Ashes it will be possible to progress in the game without combat. It may be dangerous but that's why it's a social game. If I don't have a guildy available i'll hire a mercenary. "Help me get some iron and I'll make you armour", for example.

With the scope that Ashes has promised since it first arrived on the scene I think it's a narrow viewpoint to say that the game is not for people who hate action combat.

Dygz

Well, sounds like that's just avoiding combat for the most part - regardless of the type of combat.
Which is theoretically possible in Ashes, too.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.

Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds.

Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.

Yeah, I am still convinced that Mag only has third party understanding of tab target games. Someone told him about them once and he formed an opinion on that - because his opinion on them basically every time he talks about them is just outright incorrect.

I've only ever come across one other poster on these forums that has been so incorrect about something, yet so adamant that they are correct.

You can't give a single example as I explain all my points. Not much else to say, I've played more mmorpgs then you btw. You just haven't realized I know how tab target works on a functional level the same way I know action combat. Any point you are making about how things work I'm well aware of all that. I'm also aware of old tab target games and how they evolved overtime. Though it doesn't matter how many times I explain exact points related to tab target being weaker you will ignore everything.

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