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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
You've installed and played EQ2 within a day and feel qualified to state that you're right that tab target MMOs are limited? I doubt you got out the newbie zone.
Things like this I'm fully aware in tab target as its ways to try to get around the system and have a edge as breaking line of sight is one of the only ways to avoid being hit in tab target. The other other option would be teleport blink that might give you a iframe if timed well, and sitting in the water so no pvp can happen (though some of them have water combat)
Yes they lol, I wouldn't even say i was playing the game I simply was jumping on to confirm you didn't need to control or aim your camera to attack a target if they were not in line of sight.
You need to understand when I say limited I'm talking about other elements that as the game being developed as tab target the systems are not designed for certain things. If a game is meant to work in a certain way its going to have limits. Does that mean the game was bad at the top or anything or takes no skill with certain elements, wasn't fun. Of course not, what I'm saying is there is another layer of content that comes with action combat and again why hybrid is the next step being designed to take all the positive elements of action combat in mmorpgs.
Can't really say much if aim assist is consider somewhat hybrid to you in that sense xD. For me I can see a big difference between needing to have some sense of aim and direction, abilities missing, dodging being a thing without having to use random objects in the world. Over pressing tab and being able to cycle skills as you run around.
Except hardcore PvP games like MineCraft ofc.
Does it happen more often in action games? Yes.
Is the pure skill requirement way higher in action games? I wouldn't really say so, because most abilities in action games are aoes, so it's not like you're purely aiming very precise hit scans. I'd say smth like Halo Infinite (and probably other Halos too? Haven't played others) with its dashes slides, hooks and jumps are way closer to what I'm imagining as "truly action" combat. It's constant movement, and high requirement for precision aiming against fast-moving targets is what I'm looking for in action games.
If there're action mmos that operate at the same speed w/o just a shitton of aoes and have good-feeling combat - I'd consider that the best action mmo. From what I've seen, BDO is like 80++% aoes so even with its high speed it's still not as high of a skill requirement as I would like to see in high end pve/pvp action mmos.
And that's just pvp. I really dunno how well can devs design a boss that moves as fast as a top lvl player and can somehow fight 20+ people at the same time, while requiring top lvl gameplay from all of them equally. I do not consider "huge mob stands in one place, while all the action players don't move" all that skill-requiring. And I'd assume Noaani's standards are leaaagues above mine, when it comes to pve difficulty/complexity.
Action Combat is fine for MMORPGs - up to a point where it negates RP.
Hack & Slash is the threshold at which Action Combat negates RP.
I haven't said anything about BDO "doing poorly".
While action combat mmos bring you way closer to the character and limiting the character's agency. Character's stats don't matter as much because your own physical abilities determine the skill. And the amount of information that either you or the character has is more limited.
So what I'm saying with this is - everyone who wants a more tab-leaning game has a god complex and wants to control people. Yep, 100% the case
Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line.
SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2.
The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had.
I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games.
To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat.
The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would.
Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are.
BDO does have huge aoes everywhere, it does have imbalance but it has the highest skill ceiling cap on unrealistic levels. You aren't going to beat someone that is better, if you don't believe me I know some people that play the game you could pvp.
honestly I've felt ive explained the points multiple times already why its a lot different on a technical level and what is available. In the end playing a action combat mmorpg with a highs skill cieling in pvp is only way to truly get the point across at this rate.
You can make stats matter in action combat just as much, in BDO you could make builds where people couldn't hit you do to evasion.
I am very knowledge on older mmorpgs i can promise you that lol. There are just some details I don't think are important or should just be second hand nature to tab target mmorpgs.
Though i feel the form of this debate has changed, the core I was really getting across is the comment its impossible for action combat can't do good raids and have a variety of content between it and I just know that is false.
BDO feels like I'm playing a 3D version of Mortal Kombat. I'm not really playing a class. I don't care about the character's interests. I just wander around button-mashing rotations, regardless of the class or race or gender I've chosen.
I just wanna say that while I absolutely agree with you, I mean 1000% agree with you...
This isn't because of BDO's combat.
Not even the whole 'this is basically AoE spam burn-down'.
I hope we can at least move past the concept that BDO's COMBAT is the reason you don't feel connected to the character. BDO's ability to immerse the player is so low that they have reworked their own main starter story 9 times and only now is it even remotely beginning to have a effect.
That is not a Combat issue, though.
Well, you seem to be getting a lot of things wrong.
I don't know much about action combat and raids but I can imagine that a lot of people moving around excessively can do big harm to positioning. Action combat could make people careless. Though, in fairness, only the tank should need to dodge. If clerics and dps are getting hit in a raid then they're doing something wrong.
Again, though, I think this is another point in favour of the fact I'm pushing that action combat is not as social.
But this is why I am saying we all need to test Ashes without prejudices. Judge the combat the game has, not the combat styles as you see them in other MMOs.
BDO's itemization is literally too trash to even be considered here.
But it does fall back to where we were before, Mag is quite rightly indicating that there are things you could do well that have just not been done well.
BDO's feeling is correct while you are moving and to some extent while you are attacking. But literally everything after that is wrong. It's like if the Whirlwind Skill shown in the latest Video also filled the entire screen as far as the eye could see, debuffed all enemies' movement speed down 70%, made you invincible to damage, and killed all small enemies in one spin.
The FEELING of that would be the same when the player 'moves to the correct location at the movement speed shown, identifies an enemy, and chooses to use the skill', but the actual design would be trash.
The primary issue is the combat. It's just button-mashing. And you button-mash a little bit different depending on the class - just as I woud button-mash differentlt depending on whether I choose Johnny Cage or Jax.
I never feel like I am playing my class in BDO. Sure, I automatically get a new ability when I level, but I don't care what that ability is. It will do some stuff and it will make combat a bit easier.
I'm not invested in my character(s). And combat and ttk is too quick for me to synergize my tactics with the tactics of peope in my group. We just button-mash unti everything around us is dead and then race to the next battle.
I haven't gotten anything wrong :P people just like to change things to fit a narrative with the bias that is around.
The point of the discussion is there is a higher level that can be achieves through action combat in mmorpgs because the devs have more tools available to them from design perspective and creating a more immersive experience.
Another point that is very skewed on movement being all over the place. If the design is to keep a boss in a certain place why would the players randomly dodge everywhere or the tank for that matter. If the design is intended to have players dodge for a reason to not be hit by something they have their skills they can use while maintaining what is needed mechanically for the raid. Maybe part of the difficult is the tank needs to hold him in position and then when the boss does a special attack, the tank needs to bring the boss in another position and dodge the attack as well before going back to keeping the boss still and tanking with healers healing him. Or maybe is another mechanic a player can do instead of the tank, and the tank pulls agrro back at the end oft hat special attack.
how is action combat not social? New world insanely social that was the best part of the game imo and that was purely action combat. Weird things keep getting thrown in like action combat makes the experience worst on gameplay elements that don't make sense. Action combat is imply a more immersive and responsive gameplay with more twist to it with action and mobility and mechanics, where tab is more only on the mechanic side of things.
The best question is what exact element does action combat have more of a weakness to in terms of large scale raid. What can you change about the weakness and adjust it so it can be in lines with the mechanics needed for the content.
For the question above I'd have to hear a clear weakness that action combat can't do something as well and we can look at it point by point with logical reasoning. One example earlier was about tanking and not needing to have the boss move as much, action element simply truants and doesn't rely on their dodge abilities (akin to a tab target not having aggro on the boss and charging to another mob having the boss move and follow them to a point that could kill their team.)
Yes testing is going to be important, as well as them creating good and strong boss design mechanics. Not limited to action or tab, the bosses they make could not be that difficult, we won't know until they create the content.
This is related to something else about the game as well. I'm absolutely not saying that this wasn't your experience. It is related to the Economy and EXP systems.
Players in BDO are incentivized to fight things that do not hurt them, all the way up to endgame when you finally have to stop doing this.
The game grants basically the same EXP number for a given enemy regardless of your level, but every enemy drops the same amount of loot in basically every condition and the only thing you care about is 'can I kill enemies that drop loot that is worth more money yet?'
Your goal is always to mow down the maximum number of enemies in the shortest amount of time so that you get the maximum amount of money.
It's very stupid, but the reason you never fight anything complex enough to require tactics in BDO is that the game's economic structure COMPLETELY disincentivizes doing so in a group in every possible situation.
It is explicitly a design pillar for them that you do not need to play with others.
This is 'good combat being made into bad combat by poorly designed itemization and economy'.
I say this as a person who disregards ingame efficiency in exchange for combat enjoyment, and am able to enjoy BDO combat by very explicitly choosing to give up rewards for fun.
The game makes me 'spend ingame money' (opportunity cost) in order to actually enjoy it. But it can be enjoyed in the way I believe you are implying is enjoyable, the difficulty is 'having the patience to seek this out' and 'finding a group willing to do it with you knowing that it will drastically decrease their earning power'.
EDIT: A large reason why this is relevant to us as Ashes players, therefore, is simply that 'Ashes could have the exact same battle type as BDO and just have better itemization so you would get a better experience', and similarly, 'Ashes could have a more NWO style combat and then ruin the itemization enough that it would turn into BDO'.
We must watch for both these things and give the relevant feedback at the time, I am asking that you move beyond 'BDO bad hack and slash' so that you are similarly able to give such feedback when the time comes.
I also don't know how itemization and economy help me synergize my abilities with others in my group.
The best RPG I've played that helped me feel like my class is KOA-Reckoning and that had nothing to do with itemization and everything to do with the designs for Stealth, Theft and Stealth Kills.
BDO is a good MMO Hack & Slash.
BDO is not a good MMORPG.
Alright, I guess I was just hoping for too much here.
I will however continue to hope that when the time comes, you can understand how to give relevant feedback nevertheless, and I will continue to hope that it simply never becomes necessary.
My feedback is relevant.
"I don't understand how Itemization affects how my class feels."
+
"My feedback is relevant."
It is my personal opinion that feedback from someone who does not understand an interrelation between two systems is of LESS value and relevance than feedback from those who understand the interrelation.
There's no reason that Intrepid specifically needs to share that opinion. I hope they do, obviously, and I also hope to (imo) elevate your feedback to the point where it gains additional relevance through explaining to you.
However, I do not wish to hold you to my belief system, so please accept the specifics of why I hope that Intrepid values your feedback less in this case, as a 'stylistic choice of management', and since I have no influence over Intrepid's choices of management, your feedback may very well remain completely relevant to them, and I will just be unhappy about that.
I'm telling you that economy and itemization have nothing to do with why I dislike BDO combat.
There is an interrelation between smell and taste, but I'm OK with the smell of coffee, while I hate the taste of coffee.
You could be trying to say that the combat is designed the way it is so that players will focus on itemization and economy, which is fine... but the result remains that the combat is bad for an RPG. The combat is OK for a Hack & Slash.
I'm saying that the reason you don't understand BDO combat is that the game disincentivizes you from actually moving to a greater understanding of its combat through its itemization. The itemization makes it unnecessary to learn to understand the combat or to experience it 'properly', but there is nothing about the underlying core of the combat engine or even the generality of its construction that leads to the thing you have so far indicated that you don't like about it.
Those things are part of the itemization. The combat is perfectly fine for an RPG, it is just not currently attached to an RPG.
EDIT: This leads to anyone who understands this, being completely happy at the idea of "Ashes Combat being like BDO combat" because they are thinking 'Oh I can get this great Combat but actually attached to an RPG backend? That sounds great sign me up'. Whereas you have concluded 'This combat is poor and should not be attached to an RPG because it will be bad'.