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I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

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Comments

  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    As an aside, I have literally never seen a GCD longer than 0.5 seconds - your comment ts on them being g 1.5 second is once again leads me to question if you have any experience at all with tab target games
    WoW's is 1.5 generally and FF14's is 2.5, so I'm sure there's other tabs that have a long one too, especially if they came out after WoW and decided to copy it to that extent.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    In the following with action though there are a lot more steps where fluidly becomes important when you are talking about use of skills and dodges. In tab your response on skill use is important but is not effecting the overall fluidity of the combat as you are simply telling your character what to do rather than dealing and controlling the animation with action combat. With that use of control is when a flag is actually raised about how fluid does this feel.
    Do you have any other action games that you consider as fluid as BDO? Cause I feel like BDO's directionally designed combat just completely fucked up game attitude for a lot of people (mainly you). I'm not saying that it's not fluid, but whatever fluidity it does have is definitely boosted by its design and if that kind of design is your preference - you gonna love it even more. And it's super obvious by now that it very much is your preference.

    BDO is the best one imo, I didn't play Elyon enough to get pass the p2w and bad aspects of it. New world is an example of things feeling clunky with over animation locks and no good movement. I didn't play tera enough just didn't really get it not hat for more then a hour as I was playing other games at that point.

    The thing about BDO is you need to look past everything in the game and just look at the skills and flow of them. Ignore the effects, the aoe, etc. Break it down to how does it feel to use these skills together with being fluid and it gives you a better idea. Action mmorpg are still young, there will be issues that pop up and there will be a lot of strengths with it. The whole mmorpg genre has been kind of stalling and its true action hasn't been taking to its limits in PvE content I would say. NWO is the closest to that compared to other games (granted my lack of experience with tera). So as more games come out and show what they can do we wil get a better idea.

    Action combat is 100% more difficult and requires much more work to get it right and feeling well. And that isn't enough to spend the time getting that well and working, you need to have all the other thigns that make a great mmorpg as well. Which BDO lacks a lot in that department and always will imo.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Also I'm one of the biggest BDO haters, its just sad I need to defend parts on it lol. With my dislike for it being fair granted I gave it the best chance i could give a mmorpg. I could say plenty of bad elements on it, but if we are talking about only the fluidity of combat that is the standard. That doesn't mean you are copying them and having hard animation locks on everything you can do half that and have more movement and great animations.

    I guess that best question I can ask to be more fair is what makes EQ 2 fluid, what makes eq2 a potential benchmark on how to make a game fluid? As much as I've played tab games I have certain expectations from them that come with all games and if that is a expectation I don't see that as being something fluid I see it as more a necessity for that game. Example if ability que was considered making a game more fluid (very well could be) I don't see that as making the combat more fluid i just see that as a feature that is necessity so that came doesn't feel clunky. but because that doesn't feel clunky doesn't mean combat is not fluid as I explained on what makes something fluid between combat and tab lacks the in-betweens as they are GCD, skill cast time with EQ2 even more so.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited July 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    I just wanna say that while I absolutely agree with you, I mean 1000% agree with you...

    This isn't because of BDO's combat.

    Not even the whole 'this is basically AoE spam burn-down'.

    I hope we can at least move past the concept that BDO's COMBAT is the reason you don't feel connected to the character. BDO's ability to immerse the player is so low that they have reworked their own main starter story 9 times and only now is it even remotely beginning to have a effect.

    That is not a Combat issue, though.

    Good post.

    I'm ready to throw me weight into the ring at any dork slamming BDO improperly.....seems like the only fun thing to do, how did this thread even get so large christ boys...
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    One more post x.x @NiKr

    When people say BDO is clunky as they haven't played for a large amount of time that is understandable. I should be a bit more fair if someone feels like that because for it to not feel clunky you can't button mash and you have to know what you are doing and how all your skills work to get to that skill ceiling. There are certain skills you don't use or lock as they are bad and useless, and some skills you don't just use randomly unless its for a reason if it makes you stand still. You want to use mainly mobile skills until you catch someone.

    You could make a game that has the good elemtns of BDo combat without having the high skill level which would make it more accessible and fun for everyone to play. And you won't have as much of that clunky feeling as you start to play it as well. And hybrid should solve most those issues or bring it more towards that direction with how tab skills will work to begin with.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Cause it feels more like general chat of tab vrs action, and cause i respond to everyone kind of.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You could make a game that has the good elemtns of BDo combat without having the high skill level which would make it more accessible and fun for everyone to play. And you won't have as much of that clunky feeling as you start to play it as well. And hybrid should solve most those issues or bring it more towards that direction with how tab skills will work to begin with.
    Ashes not having a gcd in its combat was also one of the reasons I got hyped for it. Dunno if GW2 or other hybrids have it, but when I heard that Ashes didn't I knew I'd have way more chances to like it (on top of an already huge bias towards its systems).
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You could make a game that has the good elemtns of BDo combat without having the high skill level which would make it more accessible and fun for everyone to play. And you won't have as much of that clunky feeling as you start to play it as well. And hybrid should solve most those issues or bring it more towards that direction with how tab skills will work to begin with.
    Ashes not having a gcd in its combat was also one of the reasons I got hyped for it. Dunno if GW2 or other hybrids have it, but when I heard that Ashes didn't I knew I'd have way more chances to like it (on top of an already huge bias towards its systems).

    I don't remember that with GW2 even back in the early days they have limited abilities as well so it wouldn't make sense. I know some of your skills have cast times but that is fine in all mmorpgs (as long as its not on every single skill). Of course the point would be the same if mage classes had like 50% skill cast times, compared to a warrior class that has none. The warrior would just feel more fluid.

    I have a good feeling about ashes combat, they know what they want to do, have a good sign on direction. Now its about just making all the content and testing it with all aspects of the hybrid system. Then they can start to polish after that and get some good animations in, effects and balance.

    Just want their bench mark to be high on the standard and quality they are aiming for with combat.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I know some of your skills have cast times but that is fine in all mmorpgs (as long as its not on every single skill). Of course the point would be the same if mage classes had like 50% skill cast times, compared to a warrior class that has none. The warrior would just feel more fluid.

    I have a good feeling about ashes combat, they know what they want to do, have a good sign on direction. Now its about just making all the content and testing it with all aspects of the hybrid system. Then they can start to polish after that and get some good animations in, effects and balance.
    Again though, action games have cast times too. And even in the last Ashes stream, that hammer skill had an almost 2 second cast time. Would you call that a tab ability? And Ashes won't have animation canceling so you'll have to spend those whole 2 seconds casting that hammer attack. And that's as a warrior! And whirlwind attack seems to be around 4 seconds of unbreakable animation.

    So if you love BDO's animation cancelling so much, you might not really like AoC's combat, if they continue with this kind of pace of battle.
  • LOL, well you probably have to find a new game, nobody is going to cater to your selfishness.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I don't use the cast time as in im only talking about spells, you have cast time in relation to move your moves, which to me is the same as GCD as they both function is pretty much the same way.
    I'm not sure what your issue here.

    Spells and melee abilities all function exactly the same in terms of cast time, cooldown and GCD in a tab target game. While I may use the word "spell" or "ability", functionally, these are the same things from a mechanics perspective - at least in relation to this topic.

    I'm not trying to say EQ2 is the greatest, all I am here doing is correcting your mistakes. If you stop making mistakes, I'd have nothing to say here.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    As an aside, I have literally never seen a GCD longer than 0.5 seconds - your comment ts on them being g 1.5 second is once again leads me to question if you have any experience at all with tab target games
    WoW's is 1.5 generally
    This is true, but WoWs GCD is triggered when you start casting a spell, not when you finish.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I know some of your skills have cast times but that is fine in all mmorpgs (as long as its not on every single skill). Of course the point would be the same if mage classes had like 50% skill cast times, compared to a warrior class that has none. The warrior would just feel more fluid.

    I have a good feeling about ashes combat, they know what they want to do, have a good sign on direction. Now its about just making all the content and testing it with all aspects of the hybrid system. Then they can start to polish after that and get some good animations in, effects and balance.
    Again though, action games have cast times too. And even in the last Ashes stream, that hammer skill had an almost 2 second cast time. Would you call that a tab ability? And Ashes won't have animation canceling so you'll have to spend those whole 2 seconds casting that hammer attack. And that's as a warrior! And whirlwind attack seems to be around 4 seconds of unbreakable animation.

    So if you love BDO's animation cancelling so much, you might not really like AoC's combat, if they continue with this kind of pace of battle.

    The gameplay design/development isn't done and he said yes to animation cancelling in the QA. If they continue I'd expect it to be there for sure as well with a decent to high skill ceiling of combat, doesn't mean it needs to be like bdo's exact form though.

  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    he said yes to animation cancelling in the QA.
    Do you have the stream and a timestamp for that? Cause I'll definitely give that to the wiki guys, cause there's no such info on there rn.
    Noaani wrote: »
    This is true, but WoWs GCD is triggered when you start casting a spell, not when you finish.
    Ah, right, there's a difference in that aspect too :D I got no clue about gcds so the only ones I've heard about are mainly wow's and ff14 and I believe both of those are cast-start -based.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    its just the combat video, i don't remember the time its in QA
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    51:20 in this video. I don't think Steven understood the question or answered the question he thought he was answering though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sUTuUAgavE
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Yeah, I just rewatched the whole combat video and was just getting to the questions for it. And Okey is right, Steven began to answer before the question got to the "animation canceling" part. And he was just saying that there'll be the ability to dodge incoming attacks and that some abilities will mitigate dmg if used at the right time.

    Nothing was said about animation canceling, so, at least right now, there's no change in their direction.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    its just the combat video, i don't remember the time its in QA

    You are misinterpreting what he said because Steven answered in a way that could cause confusion.
    Margaret: they wanna know will we have some avoidable attacks? Is there any chance for weaving or animation canceling.
    Steven: Absolutely, there are intended dodges and gap closers and you know increased mitigation effects for incoming damage that are situationally actively relevant right? So you see an animation wind up that's a telegraph on what's coming and then you have response actions that you can take as result of that in order to dodge, weave, move, do whatever, right? It is both a combination of what your rotation is, but also how you have reaction abilities ready to go that you save for certain circumstances that are important.[1]

    See how he never mentions animation canceling or 'animation weaving' once, but he focuses on 'avoidable attacks' the entire time?

    Here is the other main data point we have relative to IS's stance on animation canceling
    Question: Will animation canceling be used as a combat mechanic
    Jeffery: This(Ashes) is not a fighting game. If your ability is available you will be able to use it. You are not going to be locked into animations for the most part, for most of the game. I say most because I can't think of any exceptions but there might be. But that is not going to be a part of combat at this point.

    Feel free to argue what the above quote means, but many people here have been under the impression for a long time that there is no animation canceling in Ashes due to the above quote.

    Here is the actual page on the wiki if you want to take a look at all the evidence: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Animation_canceling

    Sources:
    [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sUTuUAgavE&t=3077s
    [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fPIP8uu6Pc&t=3911s
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Yeah, I just rewatched the whole combat video and was just getting to the questions for it. And Okey is right, Steven began to answer before the question got to the "animation canceling" part. And he was just saying that there'll be the ability to dodge incoming attacks and that some abilities will mitigate dmg if used at the right time.

    Nothing was said about animation canceling, so, at least right now, there's no change in their direction.

    If he says yes he says yes you can't say he didn't hear the entire question else he could have corrected it and said no. If you are stopping a skill and using a dodge that is a animation cancel. So direction based on that answer is on point with situations you can react to, which sounds right in the direction of animation cancelling.

    Else we are going to get into nuance which can be used for any post at this point and we can assume changes to anything. So it was a yes, it was also explained of multiple things you can do and react. To assume against it doesn't make sense, even more so as the game isn't finished so we don't know all the aspects of combat.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Seeing the wiki actually they don't have animation cancelling, neverminded on that, that means we are going to have to do entire animations and can't stop them if they continue with that. That is kind of interesting actually if you can't dodge out of any skill.

    Even more so if its something that you can't control your movement.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Either way design can change, i feel more then likely you will have animation cancelling in the game as long as they have dodge. And depending how often they let you use it once testing starts and if people complain being stuck in something too long.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    JustVine wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    its just the combat video, i don't remember the time its in QA

    You are misinterpreting what he said because Steven answered in a way that could cause confusion.
    Margaret: they wanna know will we have some avoidable attacks? Is there any chance for weaving or animation canceling.
    Steven: Absolutely, there are intended dodges and gap closers and you know increased mitigation effects for incoming damage that are situationally actively relevant right? So you see an animation wind up that's a telegraph on what's coming and then you have response actions that you can take as result of that in order to dodge, weave, move, do whatever, right? It is both a combination of what your rotation is, but also how you have reaction abilities ready to go that you save for certain circumstances that are important.[1]

    See how he never mentions animation canceling or 'animation weaving' once, but he focuses on 'avoidable attacks' the entire time?

    Here is the other main data point we have relative to IS's stance on animation canceling
    Question: Will animation canceling be used as a combat mechanic
    Jeffery: This(Ashes) is not a fighting game. If your ability is available you will be able to use it. You are not going to be locked into animations for the most part, for most of the game. I say most because I can't think of any exceptions but there might be. But that is not going to be a part of combat at this point.

    Feel free to argue what the above quote means, but many people here have been under the impression for a long time that there is no animation canceling in Ashes due to the above quote.

    Here is the actual page on the wiki if you want to take a look at all the evidence: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Animation_canceling

    Sources:
    [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sUTuUAgavE&t=3077s
    [2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fPIP8uu6Pc&t=3911s

    Remember that is 5 years ago things can change based on their direction. I'm pretty confident you will see animation cancelling with dodge at least depending on how feedback goes. Remember they will have a different lead designer things can change.

    At the moment we have contradicting information and the current info says other wise compared to the old info. But we will see as they show more combat and it gets tested.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Btw, when rewatching the combat video I realized that I missed a core piece of info for myself. In tab targeting you can in fact use action skills against your camera (you look back, while the character looks forward). That was great to see cause that was one of the things I wanted, having missed seeing it during the stream.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Btw, when rewatching the combat video I realized that I missed a core piece of info for myself. In tab targeting you can in fact use action skills against your camera (you look back, while the character looks forward). That was great to see cause that was one of the things I wanted, having missed seeing it during the stream.

    Action combat isn't limited to camera direction, parts of it exist though very small in tab target mmorpgs as they become more modern. ITs just not as effective to attack on weird angles as you are trying to track and hit your target.
  • KenpachiKenpachi Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It is what it is. Games wouldn't cater to everyone and action combat done well has a track record to keep tons of players.
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  • NyxiLeonNyxiLeon Member
    edited July 2022
    I totally agree with OP no matter what action-combat fanatics may have said.

    Hopefully this game won’t only rely on action-combat, otherwise a (huge) amount of his prospect players might just leave.
  • iccericcer Member
    Kenpachi wrote: »
    It is what it is. Games wouldn't cater to everyone and action combat done well has a track record to keep tons of players.

    You could make the same argument for tab-targeting btw.

    Besides BDO, ESO and I guess Lost Ark, I genuinely can't name you one successful action-combat MMORPG in 2022. ESO is well known for having a bad combat system. Lost Ark is a top-down game that, besides Raids and combat (in PvE), has nothing really going for it. PvP is so unfun to play due to combat mechanics. I've already expressed my thoughts on BDO's combat, and I probably wouldn't have an issue with that sort of combat in a single-player RPG. ESO is overall a great game if you ignore the bad combat. The other 2 are p2w grindfests.
  • iccer wrote: »
    Kenpachi wrote: »
    It is what it is. Games wouldn't cater to everyone and action combat done well has a track record to keep tons of players.
    The other 2 are p2w grindfests.

    That is really the big problem, only koreans are trying to do good action combat and they come with the traditional p2w shenanigans and/or lack of content.
    The problem isnt the combat, its everything else.
    Tera another example of this, it was great for the first couple of years, it lacked good content updates and started moving to the p2w/daily bs and timegates that all these korean games do, after that it survived exclusively because of its combat.
    Not sure whats the state of Blade & Soul, but I bet most people are still playing for its combat aswell.

    On the other hand, western developers dont understand action combat at all., but the games actually deliver in other aspects.
  • NyxiLeonNyxiLeon Member
    edited July 2022
    Imo Ashes of Creation devs should release a video update about the tab-targeting combat system, to reassure that huge amount of players that really were not satisfied with what they watched.

    And it should be a caster class, because I don’t expect for example an healer to be more action-combat oriented.

    Most efficient healing skills have always been : tab/click-targeting your allies, proceed to healing (single or aoe).
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