I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Mag7spy

Hybrid would be have a large amount of skills that you must aim to hit your target. Including selecting a area to aoe, shooting arrows or fireballs (etc) at your target with travel time and a chance the player can miss the spell, your melee attack requiring you face your target as you control the camera and attacking it within distance while having a chance to miss if the mobs moves out of the way (This does not relate to tab target as there isn't a physical reason why your sword needs to hit a mob that is not how the programming works)

nidriks

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.

Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds.

Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.

Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay.

That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%.

If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.

If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games.

Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation.

You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob.

Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games.

Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games.

As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

A tab target element that would make anything hybrid if they have a lot of those elements in the gaemplay. Would be You select your target with your cursor or tab. You use your kill and the ability curves towards the target or hits it instantly never missing (not talking about evasion stats).

Lock on, heavy targeting or soft targeting are all action based elements as it requires you to use some form of skill and hand eye coordination to attack your enemy.

I just call that shit hybrid, just like Dygz likes to call BDO hack&slash To me the only true pure action game is one where there's no targeting at all. Anything else is a hybrid, same as most tab games are hybrids too because they have action skills. New World is omega hybrid too, with its shitty healing.

That isn't hybrid though there is a big difference between tab combat and action combat with targeting.

Tab - There is no need to aim. Once you use your ability and it goes off the effect of the shot (ie fireball moving towards the enemy) doesn't matter its only there for effect. No matter what the spell will be hitting the target regardless of players or terrain if it has already gone off.

Action targeting - There is a need to aim. Your ability will need to be used on the target with other enemies and terrain effecting if your shot will hit or not. You will need to focus on your target and as well predict where they will be moving if they are not in line of sight and try to land on shot when they are in the open.

Two vidoes showing action vrs tab target, the difference is clear as day between two ranger classes. Tab no aim required you just run around and press your rng skills and everything hits. Other you need to focus a lot more on landing the shots then just pressing the button and kiting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wUyHG4xiOY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGeUFj_vRdU

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Hybrid would be have a large amount of skills that you must aim to hit your target. Including selecting a area to aoe, shooting arrows or fireballs (etc) at your target with travel time and a chance the player can miss the spell, your melee attack requiring you face your target as you control the camera and attacking it within distance while having a chance to miss if the mobs moves out of the way (This does not relate to tab target as there isn't a physical reason why your sword needs to hit a mob that is not how the programming works)

Eh, to me, as long as you have any aim assist in an "action mmo" - it's hybrid. I'm just an extremist like that

Same on the other side of the scale. If a "tab mmo" has action skills - it's a hybrid (imo). And the more cases of either of those things are - the more hybrid the games will be to me.

Mag7spy

nidriks wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.

Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds.

Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.

Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay.

That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%.

If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.

If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games.

Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation.

You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob.

Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games.

Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games.

As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill.

I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack.

In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks.

I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons.

Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Hybrid would be have a large amount of skills that you must aim to hit your target. Including selecting a area to aoe, shooting arrows or fireballs (etc) at your target with travel time and a chance the player can miss the spell, your melee attack requiring you face your target as you control the camera and attacking it within distance while having a chance to miss if the mobs moves out of the way (This does not relate to tab target as there isn't a physical reason why your sword needs to hit a mob that is not how the programming works)

Eh, to me, as long as you have any aim assist in an "action mmo" - it's hybrid. I'm just an extremist like that Same on the other side of the scale. If a "tab mmo" has action skills - it's a hybrid (imo). And the more cases of either of those things are - the more hybrid the games will be to me.

That isn't how it works though xD, that is like saying COD is hybrid because you have aim assist on controller. You can see the clear difference in the two vidoes i showed, you can't compare those two in terms of combat or that is just being disingenuous. One the person is running around kiting not aiming anything and using their abietites, where ethe other the person needs to has some amount of aim and sense of direction which hugely changes the feel and flow of a fight.

CROW3

Mag7spy wrote: »

I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that.

Uh, no. You absolutely can miss in tab, which is why there was a hit cap in WoW. Yes, your attacks are all (except aoe) auto directed at the target, but that doesn’t mean you would hit that target 100% of the time.

Mag7spy

CROW3 wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that.

Uh, no. You absolutely can miss in tab, which is why there was a hit cap in WoW. Yes, your attacks are all (except aoe) auto directed at the target, but that doesn’t mean you would hit that target 100% of the time.

What requires you to miss your target exactly what do you need to do. Lets see if we are on the same page or not.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Two vidoes showing action vrs tab target, the difference is clear as day between two ranger classes. Tab no aim required you just run around and press your rng skills and everything hits. Other you need to focus a lot more on landing the shots then just pressing the button and kiting.

That looks like an action camera that gives you a short target lock window to account for ping or whatever. To me that's more tab than me hitting an L2 dagger class that has passive detargeting skills on him which removes my target every other hit, so I have to retarget him constantly and that motherfucker is running real fast all over the place, while the dudes in that NWO video have over-a-second-long cast/atk animations.

Here's a "dance around a pillar" fight from L2's arena (watch at half speed for real in-game speed, cause the uploader sped it up). Constant movement, repositioning, terrain blocking, enemy movement prediction requirements and properly placed action-based blinks from the MC of the video in order to hit his enemy (4:55 timing)

https://youtu.be/dhgSuVHNo0g?t=295

Yes, the attack will hit if you've finished your cast while your enemy is in full view, but at 5:28 you can see the mage using Steal Divinity, but nothing happens because the healer went behind the pillar and cast got cancelled. Environment gameplay. Hell, there's later even an action skill use that's also misses because of terrain.

And this is gameplay of a click-to-move "tab" mmo. I expect waaaay more action and movement from a true action mmo.

Also, that fight was against a healer, whose movement is more limited than that of a dagger/ranger/fighter classes.

CROW3

Mag7spy wrote: »

What requires you to miss your target exactly what do you need to do. Lets see if we are on the same page or not.

You have a non-zero statistical chance for an attack to miss or be dodged. You mitigated this chance by stacking a secondary stat called ‘hit rating.’

Just an extension of the core Dex modifiers from PnP.

nidriks

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm going to go above and beyond right now, since the only eq i played was EQ1. Going to install eq 2 and test some things out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vIBijzg4w

Installed and tested wanted to make sure I wasn't miss understanding. You don't need to look at your target to attack them. You can tab or select a mob have them be behind your camera and it turns around for you as i was saying with swtor.

I'm not trying to be a hater, ive played these games since I was like 11, i know how these games work I've played enough tab target mmorpgs

You've installed and played EQ2 within a day and feel qualified to state that you're right that tab target MMOs are limited? I doubt you got out the newbie zone.

Mag7spy

Ya I've done similar things in pvp in tab target which gives you a break and a edge. I wouldn't call that dodging though but 100% would be positioning. Though with action combat you can have positioning without any use of terrain and simply created from the skill level in the game.

Things like this I'm fully aware in tab target as its ways to try to get around the system and have a edge as breaking line of sight is one of the only ways to avoid being hit in tab target. The other other option would be teleport blink that might give you a iframe if timed well, and sitting in the water so no pvp can happen (though some of them have water combat)

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

That isn't how it works though xD, that is like saying COD is hybrid because you have aim assist on controller. You can see the clear difference in the two vidoes i showed, you can't compare those two in terms of combat or that is just being disingenuous. One the person is running around kiting not aiming anything and using their abietites, where ethe other the person needs to has some amount of aim and sense of direction which hugely changes the feel and flow of a fight.

Like I said, I'm extremist when it comes to this issue. To me even that CoD aim assist brings it way closer to "hybrid" combat exactly because of that assist. Which just goes to show that hybrid combat is the future of all games' combat, so we should be very happy with AoC's direction

Mag7spy

nidriks wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm going to go above and beyond right now, since the only eq i played was EQ1. Going to install eq 2 and test some things out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4vIBijzg4w

Installed and tested wanted to make sure I wasn't miss understanding. You don't need to look at your target to attack them. You can tab or select a mob have them be behind your camera and it turns around for you as i was saying with swtor.

I'm not trying to be a hater, ive played these games since I was like 11, i know how these games work I've played enough tab target mmorpgs

You've installed and played EQ2 within a day and feel qualified to state that you're right that tab target MMOs are limited? I doubt you got out the newbie zone.

Yes they lol, I wouldn't even say i was playing the game I simply was jumping on to confirm you didn't need to control or aim your camera to attack a target if they were not in line of sight.

You need to understand when I say limited I'm talking about other elements that as the game being developed as tab target the systems are not designed for certain things. If a game is meant to work in a certain way its going to have limits. Does that mean the game was bad at the top or anything or takes no skill with certain elements, wasn't fun. Of course not, what I'm saying is there is another layer of content that comes with action combat and again why hybrid is the next step being designed to take all the positive elements of action combat in mmorpgs.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

That isn't how it works though xD, that is like saying COD is hybrid because you have aim assist on controller. You can see the clear difference in the two vidoes i showed, you can't compare those two in terms of combat or that is just being disingenuous. One the person is running around kiting not aiming anything and using their abietites, where ethe other the person needs to has some amount of aim and sense of direction which hugely changes the feel and flow of a fight.

Like I said, I'm extremist when it comes to this issue. To me even that CoD aim assist brings it way closer to "hybrid" combat exactly because of that assist. Which just goes to show that hybrid combat is the future of all games' combat, so we should be very happy with AoC's direction

Can't really say much if aim assist is consider somewhat hybrid to you in that sense xD. For me I can see a big difference between needing to have some sense of aim and direction, abilities missing, dodging being a thing without having to use random objects in the world. Over pressing tab and being able to cycle skills as you run around.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

That isn't how it works though xD, that is like saying COD is hybrid because you have aim assist on controller. You can see the clear difference in the two vidoes i showed, you can't compare those two in terms of combat or that is just being disingenuous. One the person is running around kiting not aiming anything and using their abietites, where ethe other the person needs to has some amount of aim and sense of direction which hugely changes the feel and flow of a fight.

Like I said, I'm extremist when it comes to this issue. To me even that CoD aim assist brings it way closer to "hybrid" combat exactly because of that assist. Which just goes to show that hybrid combat is the future of all games' combat, so we should be very happy with AoC's direction

Except hardcore PvP games like MineCraft ofc.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Ya I've done similar things in pvp in tab target which gives you a break and a edge. I wouldn't call that dodging though but 100% would be positioning. Though with action combat you can have positioning without any use of terrain and simply created from the skill level in the game.

Things like this I'm fully aware in tab target as its ways to try to get around the system and have a edge as breaking line of sight is one of the only ways to avoid being hit in tab target. The other other option would be teleport blink that might give you a iframe if timed well, and sitting in the water so no pvp can happen (though some of them have water combat)

Yeah, and in action combat games "dodging" is also just pressing a button, based on your prediction of your enemy's movement. So I see no difference between L2's environment and "use of dodge skills" gameplay and action mmo's "press A two times to dodge to the left" gameplay.

Does it happen more often in action games? Yes.

Is the pure skill requirement way higher in action games? I wouldn't really say so, because most abilities in action games are aoes, so it's not like you're purely aiming very precise hit scans. I'd say smth like Halo Infinite (and probably other Halos too? Haven't played others) with its dashes slides, hooks and jumps are way closer to what I'm imagining as "truly action" combat. It's constant movement, and high requirement for precision aiming against fast-moving targets is what I'm looking for in action games.

If there're action mmos that operate at the same speed w/o just a shitton of aoes and have good-feeling combat - I'd consider that the best action mmo. From what I've seen, BDO is like 80++% aoes so even with its high speed it's still not as high of a skill requirement as I would like to see in high end pve/pvp action mmos.

And that's just pvp. I really dunno how well can devs design a boss that moves as fast as a top lvl player and can somehow fight 20+ people at the same time, while requiring top lvl gameplay from all of them equally. I do not consider "huge mob stands in one place, while all the action players don't move" all that skill-requiring. And I'd assume Noaani's standards are leaaagues above mine, when it comes to pve difficulty/complexity.

Dygz

Norkore wrote: »

You're treating your preference like as if it was facts, when it's literally just an opinion and it's not worth more than mine or anyone else's.
I guess here I could say "Tab target and using my mouse button to choose targets is good for old school turn based RPGs (such as dragon age, KOTOR), but sucks for an MMORPG". This is just a sneaky attempt to nullify arguments by calling my example "not good".

Not really.
Action Combat is fine for MMORPGs - up to a point where it negates RP.
Hack & Slash is the threshold at which Action Combat negates RP.

Norkore wrote: »

And again, the reason why BDO is doing poorly is not the action combat. If you had some experience you would know how bad the majority of that game is, and that combat is almost single handedly carrying it.

I haven't said anything about BDO "doing poorly".

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Yes they lol, I wouldn't even say i was playing the game I simply was jumping on to confirm you didn't need to control or aim your camera to attack a target if they were not in line of sight.

I forgot to mention this yesterday but this is probably the biggest example of what Dygz keeps saying. Mmorpgs have you play a character in the game, with that character having some of its own agency. You're just the semi-omniscient being within that character's "head" who can control its actions while also providing more info to the character than it should have (i.e. being able to see behind the character w/o it turning).

While action combat mmos bring you way closer to the character and limiting the character's agency. Character's stats don't matter as much because your own physical abilities determine the skill. And the amount of information that either you or the character has is more limited.

So what I'm saying with this is - everyone who wants a more tab-leaning game has a god complex and wants to control people. Yep, 100% the case

nidriks

Mag7spy wrote: »

nidriks wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.

Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds.

Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.

Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay.

That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%.

If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.

If you think you are hard locked on to a specific target in tab target MMOs, or unable to miss, then I don't think you've played enough of the old games.

Perhaps you're not explaining yourself perfectly, but I would like to inform you that a good group in a challenging zone could require a huge amount of target switching and organisation.

You almost make it sound like games like EQ saw you stood still, twiddling your thumbs whilst your PC beat on a mob.

Movement in EQ was also paramount. You are very wrong if you think movement and positioning is only a key part of action or hybrid combat games.

Personally, I'd rather stand still than jump about like a loon, as players do in many of the last few year's action combat games.

As I've said previously in this thread, I do feel MMOs need to move forward and keep combat progressing, but I also think a lot of people commenting here don't have the knowledge they profess to have about older tab target MMOs. It was tactical rather than twitchy, but in no way did that mean tab target combat was stale, slow and lacking skill.

I've played a crap ton of old mmorpgs you don't miss your shots that is not how the system works for tab target. When you use a skill it hits the target there are no questions about that. How the target reactions to the math is not what I'm talking about. Not onyl do you hit the target but there isn't aim involved in the fight all you simply need to do is use the skill. If the person or mob is hiding behind a tree of rock of course you cant hit them you don't have line of sight. Any old mmorpg player should know the difference between line of sight and not needing to aim or be camera facing for your attack.

In pvp in tab target games you kite, everyone is aware of that but there is a different between kiting and having actual abilities that effect your physical placement allowing you to dodge quickly out of the way of attacks.

I'm sure people pushed things as far as they could within tab target to make the combat feel fast, but its a whole different ball game with action combat where you need to be landing your attacks and can dodge attacks as well with reaction being a lot more important for clear reasons.

Like the video i showed above with the ranger pvp that would be a different fight all together if he had to aim his attacks and not just run away to kite and use his skills.

Of course there was line of sight in tab target games. I well remember the line "you can not see your enemy", or some such line.

SWTOR was even more tactical with regards to movement and target switchging than EQ or EQ2.

The one problem I have with action combat, other than my much stated jumping about like sonic, is that I do feel this obsession with combat like single player games has taken away from the social side of MMOs. It's not the only thing to blame but having slower, more tactical combat made the game more social. When you're jumping around and spamming skills and dodging enemy blows the game loses that social impact. MMOs have become too fast and taken away the bonding element that EQ had.

I liked sitting behind my spellbook to "med" in EQ. I liked sitting my cleric in the throne at the back of the room and keeping my group alive. There were many situations where you needed to be on your toes and think about position (more with dps and tanks, granted), and those situations definitely became more common in later games.

To be honest, this arguing over which is better is stupid. What's most important is working together in testing and making sure the combat in Ashes is the best it can be. I may not be a fan of action combat but I believe a hybrid system can be the best for everyone. It can take the best of tab target and combine it with the best of action combat.

The problem with everyone arguing over the combat is that people will test based on their biases. Test based on the combat in the game. I think I realised that when I saw the video from the other day. It looked so much better than I thought it would.

Besides, it's not "which is better" it's what people preferred. Some people also clearly aren't as knowledgable about the older styled games as they think they are.

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