I don't like action combat, and it could very potentially stop me from playing

I haven't played it yet, so I'm not drawing any sort of line yet. But steven asked for feedback about if we are going in a positive direction, and I'm just gonna say that every action combat korean type mmo I've ever played I have absolutely hated. I am tab target 100%, I think action combat only works from an overhead 3rd person perspective like diablo or league of legends or lost ark. I don't want to aim my ability's honestly, If I use a sword and get animation locked, and at the same time I'm required to dodge some kind of skill shot. I'm not gonna be happy. If I miss a spell as a spell caster because my mouse was 4 pixels off, same thing. Tab targeting let's me focus on what I think matters.

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Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

H

I'm curious, why do you often have this "H" at the start of your comments?

Vaknar

Hi all! I appreciate all of the constructive conversation happening in this thread! It's certainly been a hot topic for our community, hasn't it? 😄

With that said, I wanted to say that we've provided the community with a little extra clarification which can be found here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52785/combat-clarifications-have-feedback-and-thoughts-on-combat-click-here-first#latest

Make sure to drop your feedback on the topic here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52724/feedback-request-basic-melee-weapon-attack-update-discussed-in-june-livestream/p1

OK! Back to chatting ^_^

🏃‍♂️💨

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

This thread is more popular than the linked one

But with fewer views so you already know that this thread has all the regulars just arguing with each other, while the main feedback thread is just purely newer/non-regular people posting a comment or 2.

CROW3

Hm... maybe @Vaknar we should beta test corruption on the forums first?

Ludullu

CROW3 wrote: »

Hm... maybe @Vaknar we should beta test corruption on the forums first?

*flags on you cause you're farming this thread*

Mag7spy

Guess tab target players and pvers view me as corrupted.

CROW3

NiKr wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

Hm... maybe @Vaknar we should beta test corruption on the forums first?

*flags on you cause you're farming this thread*

Ha! It's a mitigated risk. No one in this conversation is a Green.

Ludullu

CROW3 wrote: »

Ha! It's a mitigated risk. No one in this conversation is a Green.

Dygz definitely has already gone past his pvp limit for the day so he's green as hell. Everyone else shall be free food

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Guess tab target players and pvers view me as corrupted.

Nah, you're flagged at best. You're not hardcore enough to be corrupted

Azherae though. Now she's definitely the reddest here

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system.

@mcstackerson

I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.

Guess I'll just ask you anyway.

If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?

This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.

Sorry for letting you down.

There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected.

This is a reason i'm arguing what i am. A tab ability is one that goes to your target and only your target. In melee, this extra step of selecting your target seems unnecessary to me.

In many games (EQ2 for sure, others as well but I cant name them right now - I generally play casters) you dont. If you activate a melee ability with no target, it will activate and you will automatically acquire the first target it hits.

By your definition, would this make all EQ2 melee combat action?

If the attack is hitting whatever is in front of you, regardless of if it is your target or not, then yes, it's an "action" ability.

If you have a target and it is out of range (including off to the side or behind) you will get an error saying your target is out of range, even if you have a different target right in front of you.

If you clear your target and use the same attack, it will attack the mob in front of you and you will acquire that as a target.

Would that make EQ2 melee combat conditional action?

Mag7spy

No that is tab and not action at all.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Im just going to post the actual definition explanation post this is getting out of hand with these weird comparisons that tab can do things action can when they are different on a fundamental level.

In WoW or classic tab-targeting you press a button to deal damage. The client checks your range to the targeted enemy and if in range all requirements are met and damage is dealt; the character animation is just a visual feedback that something happens -- it's not necessary for a hit. Also, the animation will be played after the hit is calculated. Movement has no affect besides breaking line of sight or moving out of the "action circle" of the ability.

In Tera or action combat pressing a button will also start an animation which deal damage iff there is a mob in the target area. But the hitboxes and the animation of the skills are much more versatile than in mixed combat, e.g. the size of the weapons and the swing animations can be used as visual clue if an attack connects or not -- steps to the side decide a hit or miss. A big difference to tab-targeting and mixed combat is, that in action combat the character is locked in an animation while attacking, i.e. you can't strafe while swinging. But because attacks are coupled with movement (e.g. jumping forward in a lunge-attack) different attacks can be used to dodge enemy hits. As a consequence, in action combat fixed skill-rotations don't exist -- skill usage depends on where the player wants to move.

There are some factual inaccuracies in the above.

Many tab games dont calculate damage and then display the animation, as you say. This is because (especially in PvP) the animation of an attack is used as a queue to counter it, so at least in some games the damage dealt (or even if the hit connects) isnt calculated until the animation is finished.

Also, the animation in action combat is as equally unnecessary for the system to function. The animation itself is not usually used to measure a hit or miss - this calculation is usually done independently, and then the animators ensure that the animation simply fills in the area the attack checked.

Action combat would work just fine (from a mechanic standpoint) if there were no animations, the game just checked the hit area for any hit boxes, and then moved the character to the location that the attack moved them to.

It would be shit to watch, and probably a bit harder to play (no visual queue as to attack areas), but it would be mechanically the same.

Note that neither of the above are how all tab or all action combat work, different games are, well different. Trying to reduce either one down to "this is what it is" is futile.

Mag7spy

Key word, "hit box" something tab target doesn't use for generally 95% of the game. And why Tab is tab and why action is action combat.

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

I was wondering who will ask
I almost missed your question.
This forum has an unusual habit of saving half prepared posts into the cloud.
If I delete them, they remain saved and I risk posting them without willing to, as I did once already.
So I select all and replace the text with a letter which happens to be H.
And of course I do not notice it when I post next time.

Ah, so the same problem I have with this forum's draft saving system

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system.

@mcstackerson

I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.

Guess I'll just ask you anyway.

If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?

This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.

Sorry for letting you down.

There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected.

This is a reason i'm arguing what i am. A tab ability is one that goes to your target and only your target. In melee, this extra step of selecting your target seems unnecessary to me.

In many games (EQ2 for sure, others as well but I cant name them right now - I generally play casters) you dont. If you activate a melee ability with no target, it will activate and you will automatically acquire the first target it hits.

By your definition, would this make all EQ2 melee combat action?

If the attack is hitting whatever is in front of you, regardless of if it is your target or not, then yes, it's an "action" ability.

If you have a target and it is out of range (including off to the side or behind) you will get an error saying your target is out of range, even if you have a different target right in front of you.

If you clear your target and use the same attack, it will attack the mob in front of you and you will acquire that as a target.

Would that make EQ2 melee combat conditional action?

No, if the skill is going to your target, then it's a tab skill. Just because it's visually similar doesn't mean they are functionally the same.

What are you trying to argue here?

CROW3

mcstackerson wrote: »

No, if the skill is going to your target, then it's a tab skill.

Hold on a sec...

Noaani wrote: »

If you have a target and it is out of range (including off to the side or behind) you will get an error saying your target is out of range, even if you have a different target right in front of you. If you clear your target and use the same attack, it will attack the mob in front of you and you will acquire that as a target.

This ^ can also be how a hybrid hard lock could work. If I have Willowy_Elf_A target-locked, and he runs away (beyond my bow's range) and Willowy_Elf_B is right in front of my reticle. One possible outcome is that I get an 'out of range' message for Willowy_Elf_A.

Another possible outcome is that as soon as Willowy_Elf_A moves out of range it clears my locked target so my reticle (soft target) becomes the active target.

So there's lots of options...

JustVine

CROW3 wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

Hm... maybe @Vaknar we should beta test corruption on the forums first?

*flags on you cause you're farming this thread*

Ha! It's a mitigated risk. No one in this conversation is a Green.

It ain't easy bein green.

CROW3

JustVine wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

Hm... maybe @Vaknar we should beta test corruption on the forums first?

*flags on you cause you're farming this thread*

Ha! It's a mitigated risk. No one in this conversation is a Green.

It ain't easy bein green.

Especially when that frog killer guy is around.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system.

@mcstackerson

I'm a little disappointed you haven't come back to this yet, as I have a question for you.

Guess I'll just ask you anyway.

If the difference between tab and action is the delivery system, since all melee in both games require you to be within melee range and facing your target, does that mean there is no tab target melee combat?

This is why this definition of yours just doesn't work.

Sorry for letting you down.

There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected.

This is a reason i'm arguing what i am. A tab ability is one that goes to your target and only your target. In melee, this extra step of selecting your target seems unnecessary to me.

In many games (EQ2 for sure, others as well but I cant name them right now - I generally play casters) you dont. If you activate a melee ability with no target, it will activate and you will automatically acquire the first target it hits.

By your definition, would this make all EQ2 melee combat action?

If the attack is hitting whatever is in front of you, regardless of if it is your target or not, then yes, it's an "action" ability.

If you have a target and it is out of range (including off to the side or behind) you will get an error saying your target is out of range, even if you have a different target right in front of you.

If you clear your target and use the same attack, it will attack the mob in front of you and you will acquire that as a target.

Would that make EQ2 melee combat conditional action?

No, if the skill is going to your target, then it's a tab skill. Just because it's visually similar doesn't mean they are functionally the same.

What are you trying to argue here?

But you specifically said

There is an extra step you are missing. For a tab melee ability to function, you need to have the target you are trying to melee selected.

But there are times in EQ2 where you do not need a target in order to attack.

If you dont need to perform that step of acquiring a target of your intended target is in range of a melee attack, is it still tab target?

Consider this along with casters having someone abilities that are placed rather than cast on your target, and surely the game must now be considered hybrid combat...

Enigmatic Sage

Technically if the ability auto selects the nearest target as a tab, it would technically still fall under a tab target ability in order to function properly regardless of if you had the target selected first or second after performing the the ability in this context. because not only is auto selecting the target for you but it is also implying that is where the ability tracking is heading towards.

By performing an action that auto-selects the nearest target, it still functions relatively more as a tab-target ability.

In a more true sense of action combat, it comes down to performing an ability without the requirement for a targeting system, range limitations for said function and even tracking limitations based on ability type.

As example using melee:
do you have a target to perform the action (regardless of pre-target or auto-target after)
are they within range to perform the action?
does tracking affect the action?

Even in action combat games there are targeting system so players can cycle through target for situational scenario's if the players wish to use them. Soulsbourne games have it, game like Legend of Zelda have it as well. But a main difference is, you can perform those abilities regardless of using the targeting-locking system regardless.

There are spells cast Elden ring where you perform them and they do their thing. When it comes to melee, the lock doesn't always allow you to hit your target, it aids in a camera and character focal point interaction. It's not guaranteed to hit the target regardless of positioning like tab targeting generally is.

For ashes to have the reticle/crosshair lock-aiming-tracking system for the Tab-target based on ability type is a great choice but as I have said before, there could be limitations to its functionality and range to ensure it doesn't become an over powered mechanic vs those who free-aim and use free-aim abilities for an MMORPG.

As a side note thinking about Elden ring, those star abilities are pretty cool how they are cast and shower projectiles with tracking

even if they weren't that viable in ng+7

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