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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
It only doesn't matter how it looks if its tab target. When you use a skill if you are in range all animation, looks and effects are just flare and don't have anything to do with dmg done. Action combat all of that does matter as damage is calculated after a hit of animation.
I prefer having some rather than none, sure.
Thankfully, Ashes is going for hybrid, so again... your argument is moot.
And, yeah, what matters is whether the combat feels slow or not and your "damage done" point becomes irrelevant.
I grew up on dial up while people had dsl.
My argument is not moot what are you talking about. Please read the discussion then just assuming things as knowing context should be the first step if you want to throw 2 cents in. Its a point to someone saying tab has the same level of skill as twitch combat. That can't be possible le as fundamentally tab target abilities lacks functions that make action combat.
L2 had detargeting abilities so you did in fact have to track your targets. And if you had those detargeting skills yourself, you'd try and use them to prevent enemy casts, so you would not only track movement, but ability usage too. And with some abilities being preventive (dodge/def buffs), you'd want to use them right before a big (or usually time-limited super buffed one) attack, so you had to predict your enemy's actions too.
And imo, clicking on 10 pixels on my screen during a hectic fight, so that I can single out the healer in a crowd, takes more skill than just moving my mouse a bit and using an aoe in a general direction.
And if AA was anywhere near that kind of combat, it would've required even more skill, considering that it had faster movement than L2.
So overall, tab games can still require the same skill sets from people. The only difference is that instead of just moving your mouse to aim, you need to move the whole camera with your mouse and then move on top of that, so it's a double move instead of a singular one.
I really don't want this post to be going down tab vrs action as well as my original point was having a style for everyone. Even more so when we have the other post.
Briefly ill comment on one point, why are you needing to say aoe? Not every skill is a aoe that has distance. You need to account for the player you are attacking and their movements, Iframes, super armor and how they react to your movements.
If you are telling me in tab target everyone is grouped up tightly and you need to click one person in a small frame cause your camera is so far zoomed back and have 10 pixels to select. That isn't a positive point it is clunky and shows the limits on what tab target can do are being reached and making the fight less immersive. A cool movement isn't i managed to click this healer on 10 pixels of my screen. A cool moment is I see a healer in the distance and i weaved through their group cc the healer, countering the other two people that tried to help them and managed to kill the healer and get out alive in the fight.
Again this point was to a comment saying tab can be as twitch as action, which is not the case. I'm not talking about teleport speed and blowing someone up with tab target and being able to do that fast. There is a big difference between action and tab elements in gameplay and responses as one auto hits int he area and the toher you have an attempt to dodge every single physical attack or for it to miss you.
Noanni is teeling you that both take skill - sure one is faster than the other - but both take skill.
Different skills.
You just happen to like sprinting better than you like cross-country because sprinting is faster and feels more thrilling to you.
Once Noaani states that Tera feels faster than laborius tab target, even though it's not "action combat", your point about damage is moot.
Probably seems a bit nitpicky but, there's actually signifant difference.
So.... yes.
All of those things usually meant that you gotta track your opponent constantly and you gotta be precise in your clicking, because if you spread out your dmg to much, it'll just get outhealed.
Obviously, to you it isn't a positive. But in L2, good targeters were highly valued and considered to be great pvpers. Just as a good twitch aimer in action mmos would be praised for great aiming and precision.
And as for "weaved through and killed their healer", L2 had this too. Daggers had a full stealth buff for 30 secs, which would be dispelled if they were hit, so they had to run through a ton of aoes around the enemy healer in order to not be noticed. This required knowledge of cast timings and enemy classes. My main class required me to properly use directional blinks in order to get behind enemy lines quickly. This required precise character movements, while being very fast so that your enemy can't react fast enough to counter your actions.
Again though. All I'm saying is "not all games are the same". Some tab games can require you to have good twitch skills. Some action games just require you to aim in a general direction and cast some aoes w/o thinking too much. And other games on either side can push their own mechanics to the limit w/o being similar to the other side at all.
Your point is moot when you say two things are the same comparing their skill when one has less features then the other. do me a favor and pick up BDO, I can get somehow to show you the difference between tab target and action combat and the levels between it.
That is the funny thing no matter how much people tell you, you will continue to ignore the fact action combat has more features then tab target and reach to try to compare anything to say it has the same thing when functionality wise it does not. Again your point is moot you are comparing sprinting to doing a obstacle course if we are using comparisons.
You have to do a "precise click" for every attack in a free aim system. I don't think you can argue that you need to track more in tab when aiming is tracking your target. If we want to go further, free aim skills can utilize projectiles, which adds a layer of prediction to your aiming.
We aren't going to get through to them, but i except them to be using action combat since in their mind set they are pretty much doing it already.
If there are action mmos where most of your skills are just precise headshot-like abilities - I'd definitely like to at least check it out, cause I haven't heard of such an mmo.
You have a huge pull and push for combat that makes things feel more engaging then hunting for a pixel. Even then with a mmo if you are hunting for a pixel it doesn't compare to action type games, and sounds more like a limitations to tab target gameplay more then anything again. Once you find the pixel you do your skills you don't need to track it. You are simply selecting something far away out of distance id guess more then likely so you should be overall safe. Else you Camera is so zoomed out and you are trying to see everything which is more a RTS feeling then twitch action.
BDO is a Hack & Slash. It doesn't take any skill. You just button mash and mow shit down.
"More features" is probably also irrelevant.
But, "same thing" is not the argument - and can't be because tab target is not the "same thing" as action combat.
I'm not comparing sprint to obstacle course. I'm comparing the speed of a sprint to the speed of cross country. Both take skill. Different skill sets.
Bdo takes no skill huh? I know you have the game want to jump on it? I got people that might have a few words to you saying bdo takes no skill.
I could meme this but that won't get anywhere, lets get some hands thrown and see how you do in pvp. You can make trials so its gear matched.
Darkfall is (was) about as precise as you can get and played a lot like a shooter, especially the first one. ESO also allows you to shoot targets that are far away.
And I hope Ashes has this exact mechanic for tab part of the combat exactly so that it's as difficult as the action part. But you either refuse to read and comprehend my argument or just decide to completely dismiss anything that's not literally 1-to-1 copy of action combat mechanics, even when the basic concept and player actions are very similar.
Have you played all 3 (BDO being the 3rd)? Which one would you consider the most difficult one mechanically/aiming-wise?
Tracking is not just looking at the general direction of a player or having to reclick...You are reaching to say its tracking. Tracking a target has nothing to do with knowing your situation with other allies and enemies, others attacking you is all part of continuing to track them that can add more difficulty. Having to retarget isn't really a big factor, in action combat people will try to move off screen and hit you from behind or break sight and you need to continue to track them through all that and be precise not just look in their general direction as timing of your move so it hits them is also important, you can't just randomly attack.
I read fine you are trying to reach and say something is action or action like when its clearly not. We could have side to side gameplay and the points on the differences would be clear as day. The moment proper context comes into the picture and it isn't just words trying to explain how tab can do something it would fall apart.
The thing is tab target player debating this won't do a side by side comparison every detail in combat no matter what because it will start to make their points look weaker. Where as a action player will happily show side by side and have a conversation about all elements of combat and what they mean and the difference in difficulty.
I think MO2 holds that category now, with it's small player-base. I found MO2 required a much higher twitch skill for action combat than BDO -which I think is a major reason it's such a niche game.
The either/or argument on tab/action isn't very interesting imo. Now - how to blend those two as a hybrid is a different story.
I don't think that Ashes will knock it out of the park in the first few iterations, but I think they will increment their way to something very solid and enjoyable. However, the speed of those increments is going to depend greatly on the quality of feedback provided during testing. If we're stuck in these entrenched tab-camp v. AC-camp, the overall feedback is going to suffer.
My suggestion is that we pivot toward decomposing the elements of both models we most enjoy, then discuss what those elements would look like in a hybrid experience.
Edit: For instance - ranged combat (bows/xbows). Do we want to cycle a basic attack w/LMB on the reticle (similar to FPS) or do we want to have LMB mapped to a selectable ability (which could also be the basic attack)? Or is there a better way to handle this? If I have a target lock mechanism - how does the basic attack function when I have one mob target-locked and a different mob in my reticle? What happens when the target-locked mob is behind me and there's a mob in front of me under my reticle?
Yea, i've played all 3 and Darkfall is by far the hardest to aim. It probably the highest skill ceiling i have seen in an MMO. BDO plays more like a fighting game and ESO is more forgiving but the requirement to aim is still there. Do you have a video the shows off the targeting you are talking about?
I agree.
For me, free aiming/action gives more control. I like that if i press a skill, it's going to be used and will go where i'm aiming. On the defensive side, i like that aiming means i can dodge my opponents skills which further increases that feeling of control. There is more i can do to keep myself alive and if i die, it feels like it was more my fault.
This extra control makes me feel closer to my character and more immersed in the game.
BDO is actually still the hardest, Mag is right.
BDO just has a gentle 'learning curve' for more casual players, for the exact reason that we are discussing in general. Most players actually cannot do this at the level required and so the game simply makes it so that you don't have to for about 90% of its PvE.
Know that I say this not as a fan of the game, nor even of its specific form of Combat, I definitely expect to prefer what Ashes does, but bearing in mind that in almost all these cases, PvP is the main thing being referred to (the number of people who could code a scaling PvE encounter in proper Action Combat in this industry can't be that high, but I hear some are at Intrepid so yay!).
I assure those of you who have not played 'full' BDO that the mechanical depth and requirements of the game increase very fast in the PvE encounters that actually get close to PvP.
Are they good/fun/fair encounters? Not claiming that (except Katzvariak). But they are definitely 'similar or higher in difficulty relative to the vast majority of FPS and similar games'.
But don't take my word for it, you can level to 60 in BDO in 3 hours if you use their giant piles of catchup mechanics, autorun options, EXP boosts, and so on. At which point you can go check literally all of it yourself if you actually care.
Target play is great, and honestly should be how some of act action combat is for range classes. Not everything needs to be hardcore with aim, its still a mmorpg and good to have a mix and why I was supporting having soft targeting as it makes it easier on the player base. Though still having some harder moves to aim with bonuses that come from difficulty is good to mix things up as well on action side.
The point of action isn't to make it exclusive and as hard as possible but to have more curves of skill available for players. It should be accessible and fair, it doesn't need to be you missed a pixel on hitting someone before your aim was slightly off like you are using a sniper or something. It just needs to have a nice skill curve to it and is fun and immersive.