Action Combat for meele classes, tab targeting for ranged classes

What do you guys prefer, cross aiming or tab targeting for ranged dps classes?
Furthermore would you like to see different approaches with different classes?
EG:
- Ranged agility based classes (like hunters) -> Action Combat (Cross aim) with basic attacks
- Ranged intelligence based classes (like mages) --> Tab Targeting with basic attacks + skill shot abilities

Since with mage classes the core gameplay is to land your abilities (where the most dmg comes from), i think tab targeting for your basic attacks should be fine. The skill with intelligence based classes shouldnt be measured by what player has the best aim in the game.
It should be measured by the tactical use of your set of abilities and by landing those. IMO

But there should be room for players, who come from fps games, as well. They should be able to show their skill and beeing rewarded in fights too e.g. by having a good aim. I dont know the exact numbers but with my knowlege from other games like New World I can imagine that those fps oriented players like are choosing classes with bows, gunpowder weappons, etc.

So why dont we do cross aiming your basic attacks for those agility based classes and tab targeting your basic attacks for intelligence based classes?

Since we are talking about two different approaches of dmg output you would have the advantage of adjusting the dmg output of the classes individually when balancing the classes overall. From my point of view this would be a better solution for the balacing overall rather than giving people the choice of swapping between action and tabtargeting with any ranged dps class.

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Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

My argument is not moot what are you talking about. Please read the discussion then just assuming things as knowing context should be the first step if you want to throw 2 cents in. Its a point to someone saying tab has the same level of skill as twitch combat. That can't be possible le as fundamentally tab target abilities lacks functions that make action combat.

So, this is like saying that racing cross-country dooes not take skill but sprinting does.
Noanni is teeling you that both take skill - sure one is faster than the other - but both take skill.
Different skills.
You just happen to like sprinting better than you like cross-country because sprinting is faster and feels more thrilling to you.

Once Noaani states that Tera feels faster than laborius tab target, even though it's not "action combat", your point about damage is moot.

Your point is moot when you say two things are the same comparing their skill when one has less features then the other. do me a favor and pick up BDO, I can get somehow to show you the difference between tab target and action combat and the levels between it.

That is the funny thing no matter how much people tell you, you will continue to ignore the fact action combat has more features then tab target and reach to try to compare anything to say it has the same thing when functionality wise it does not. Again your point is moot you are comparing sprinting to doing a obstacle course if we are using comparisons.

mcstackerson

NiKr wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

I don't think that is a fair comparison since you can also have precise free aim skills that would require the same amount of precision.

True, but how many of those does any given class have? Cause any class in L2 required this. You could've been aggroed by a tank and had to reclick your main target, you could've been clipped by a mage's aoe detargeting skill or by a dagger's targeted detargeting, or you could be hitting a light armor wearing class and it had an augment that made you lose their target at some % chance.

All of those things usually meant that you gotta track your opponent constantly and you gotta be precise in your clicking, because if you spread out your dmg to much, it'll just get outhealed.

You have to do a "precise click" for every attack in a free aim system. I don't think you can argue that you need to track more in tab when aiming is tracking your target. If we want to go further, free aim skills can utilize projectiles, which adds a layer of prediction to your aiming.

Mag7spy

mcstackerson wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

I don't think that is a fair comparison since you can also have precise free aim skills that would require the same amount of precision.

True, but how many of those does any given class have? Cause any class in L2 required this. You could've been aggroed by a tank and had to reclick your main target, you could've been clipped by a mage's aoe detargeting skill or by a dagger's targeted detargeting, or you could be hitting a light armor wearing class and it had an augment that made you lose their target at some % chance.

All of those things usually meant that you gotta track your opponent constantly and you gotta be precise in your clicking, because if you spread out your dmg to much, it'll just get outhealed.

You have to do a "precise click" for every attack in a free aim system. I don't think you can argue that you need to track more in tab when aiming is tracking your target. If we want to go further, free aim skills can utilize projectiles, which adds a layer of prediction to your aiming.

We aren't going to get through to them, but i except them to be using action combat since in their mind set they are pretty much doing it already.

Mag7spy

So when it comes out if people are like action combat is to difficult so I use tab, it will be a I told you so moment.

Ludullu

mcstackerson wrote: »

You have to do a "precise click" for every attack in a free aim system. I don't think you can argue that you need to track more in tab when aiming is tracking your target. If we want to go further, free aim skills can utilize projectiles, which adds a layer of prediction to your aiming.

I haven't played too much BDO, but "pixel hunting" in smth like shooters (which would be close to pixel hunting in L2) was way harder than just moving my camera around in BDO. You're not hunting pixels in BDO, you're hunting a huge target and then use aoe most of the time on top of that, exactly because having action mmos be as hard as playing a sniper in CS would probably push way too many people away.

If there are action mmos where most of your skills are just precise headshot-like abilities - I'd definitely like to at least check it out, cause I haven't heard of such an mmo.

Mag7spy

In BDO you are fighting moving targets trying to move through your skills, counter your moves, block your moves, i frame your moves, reducing all their opening with their rotations, while slowly trying to chip you down. Its not simply just selecting a pixel, that would be way more easy then dealing with all those elements together. All while needing to make sure you aren't full of opening yourself, landing your moves and prediciting their own moves.

You have a huge pull and push for combat that makes things feel more engaging then hunting for a pixel. Even then with a mmo if you are hunting for a pixel it doesn't compare to action type games, and sounds more like a limitations to tab target gameplay more then anything again. Once you find the pixel you do your skills you don't need to track it. You are simply selecting something far away out of distance id guess more then likely so you should be overall safe. Else you Camera is so zoomed out and you are trying to see everything which is more a RTS feeling then twitch action.

Dygz

Mag7spy wrote: »

Your point is moot when you say two things are the same comparing their skill when one has less features then the other. do me a favor and pick up BDO, I can get somehow to show you the difference between tab target and action combat and the levels between it.

That is the funny thing no matter how much people tell you, you will continue to ignore the fact action combat has more features then tab target and reach to try to compare anything to say it has the same thing when functionality wise it does not. Again your point is moot you are comparing sprinting to doing a obstacle course if we are using comparisons.

You are the one who is saying "same".
BDO is a Hack & Slash. It doesn't take any skill. You just button mash and mow shit down.
"More features" is probably also irrelevant.
But, "same thing" is not the argument - and can't be because tab target is not the "same thing" as action combat.
I'm not comparing sprint to obstacle course. I'm comparing the speed of a sprint to the speed of cross country. Both take skill. Different skill sets.

Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Your point is moot when you say two things are the same comparing their skill when one has less features then the other. do me a favor and pick up BDO, I can get somehow to show you the difference between tab target and action combat and the levels between it.

That is the funny thing no matter how much people tell you, you will continue to ignore the fact action combat has more features then tab target and reach to try to compare anything to say it has the same thing when functionality wise it does not. Again your point is moot you are comparing sprinting to doing a obstacle course if we are using comparisons.

You are the one who is saying "same".
BDO is a Hack & Slash. It doesn't take any skill. You just button mash and mow shit down.
"More features" is probably also irrelevant.
But, "same thing" is not the argument - and can't be because tab target is not the "same thing" as action combat.
I'm not comparing sprint to obstacle course. I'm comparing the speed of a sprint to the speed of cross country. Both take skill. Different skill sets.

Bdo takes no skill huh? I know you have the game want to jump on it? I got people that might have a few words to you saying bdo takes no skill.

I could meme this but that won't get anywhere, lets get some hands thrown and see how you do in pvp. You can make trials so its gear matched.

Mag7spy

If it takes no skill it should be easy for you to win half the time.

mcstackerson

NiKr wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

You have to do a "precise click" for every attack in a free aim system. I don't think you can argue that you need to track more in tab when aiming is tracking your target. If we want to go further, free aim skills can utilize projectiles, which adds a layer of prediction to your aiming.

I haven't played too much BDO, but "pixel hunting" in smth like shooters (which would be close to pixel hunting in L2) was way harder than just moving my camera around in BDO. You're not hunting pixels in BDO, you're hunting a huge target and then use aoe most of the time on top of that, exactly because having action mmos be as hard as playing a sniper in CS would probably push way too many people away.

If there are action mmos where most of your skills are just precise headshot-like abilities - I'd definitely like to at least check it out, cause I haven't heard of such an mmo.

Darkfall is (was) about as precise as you can get and played a lot like a shooter, especially the first one. ESO also allows you to shoot targets that are far away.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

In BDO you are fighting moving targets trying to move through your skills, counter your moves, block your moves, i frame your moves, reducing all their opening with their rotations, while slowly trying to chip you down. Its not simply just selecting a pixel, that would be way more easy then dealing with all those elements together. All while needing to make sure you aren't full of opening yourself, landing your moves and prediciting their own moves.

You have a huge pull and push for combat that makes things feel more engaging then hunting for a pixel. Even then with a mmo if you are hunting for a pixel it doesn't compare to action type games, and sounds more like a limitations to tab target gameplay more then anything again. Once you find the pixel you do your skills you don't need to track it. You are simply selecting something far away out of distance id guess more then likely so you should be overall safe. Else you Camera is so zoomed out and you are trying to see everything which is more a RTS feeling then twitch action.

Guess you either didn't read my answer to Stackerson or decided to dismiss it completely, but as I said there, in L2 you had to track your target because your targeting would be removed quite often. You also had to constantly move away from other people and any potential aoes (be they on the ground or around your allies or around enemies) and you did that with the same mouse that you used for targeting. So your eyes had to track your surroundings, your target's movement, your allies' movement and other enemies' movements - all while clicking on the ground to avoid dangers, glancing at your targeting window to be sure that you're still targeted and retargeting every time you lose it.

And I hope Ashes has this exact mechanic for tab part of the combat exactly so that it's as difficult as the action part. But you either refuse to read and comprehend my argument or just decide to completely dismiss anything that's not literally 1-to-1 copy of action combat mechanics, even when the basic concept and player actions are very similar.

Ludullu

mcstackerson wrote: »

Darkfall is (was) about as precise as you can get and played a lot like a shooter, especially the first one. ESO also allows you to shoot targets that are far away.

Darkfall definitely seems close to what I imagine when I think about difficult action combat. Though it looked fairly slow in the video, so I guess you could still get more hardcore. ESO didn't feel as precise though. Maybe it was just the class in the video or it just doesn't translate through video as well.

Have you played all 3 (BDO being the 3rd)? Which one would you consider the most difficult one mechanically/aiming-wise?

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

In BDO you are fighting moving targets trying to move through your skills, counter your moves, block your moves, i frame your moves, reducing all their opening with their rotations, while slowly trying to chip you down. Its not simply just selecting a pixel, that would be way more easy then dealing with all those elements together. All while needing to make sure you aren't full of opening yourself, landing your moves and prediciting their own moves.

You have a huge pull and push for combat that makes things feel more engaging then hunting for a pixel. Even then with a mmo if you are hunting for a pixel it doesn't compare to action type games, and sounds more like a limitations to tab target gameplay more then anything again. Once you find the pixel you do your skills you don't need to track it. You are simply selecting something far away out of distance id guess more then likely so you should be overall safe. Else you Camera is so zoomed out and you are trying to see everything which is more a RTS feeling then twitch action.

Guess you either didn't read my answer to Stackerson or decided to dismiss it completely, but as I said there, in L2 you had to track your target because your targeting would be removed quite often. You also had to constantly move away from other people and any potential aoes (be they on the ground or around your allies or around enemies) and you did that with the same mouse that you used for targeting. So your eyes had to track your surroundings, your target's movement, your allies' movement and other enemies' movements - all while clicking on the ground to avoid dangers, glancing at your targeting window to be sure that you're still targeted and retargeting every time you lose it.

And I hope Ashes has this exact mechanic for tab part of the combat exactly so that it's as difficult as the action part. But you either refuse to read and comprehend my argument or just decide to completely dismiss anything that's not literally 1-to-1 copy of action combat mechanics, even when the basic concept and player actions are very similar.

Tracking is not just looking at the general direction of a player or having to reclick...You are reaching to say its tracking. Tracking a target has nothing to do with knowing your situation with other allies and enemies, others attacking you is all part of continuing to track them that can add more difficulty. Having to retarget isn't really a big factor, in action combat people will try to move off screen and hit you from behind or break sight and you need to continue to track them through all that and be precise not just look in their general direction as timing of your move so it hits them is also important, you can't just randomly attack.

I read fine you are trying to reach and say something is action or action like when its clearly not. We could have side to side gameplay and the points on the differences would be clear as day. The moment proper context comes into the picture and it isn't just words trying to explain how tab can do something it would fall apart.

The thing is tab target player debating this won't do a side by side comparison every detail in combat no matter what because it will start to make their points look weaker. Where as a action player will happily show side by side and have a conversation about all elements of combat and what they mean and the difference in difficulty.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

The thing is tab target player debating this won't do a side by side comparison every detail in combat no matter what because it will start to make their points look weaker. Where as a action player will happily show side by side and have a conversation about all elements of combat and what they mean and the difference in difficulty.

I wish I recorded my pvp from back in the day, but sadly I didn't. And most videos I've seen on yt don't match the gameplay I, or my friends, had back then. Though I'm sure that even if I did have those videos, you'd just say that it's not the same because it doesn't look the same (which it wouldn't, because the video doesn't explain/show player action, only character action).

CROW3

mcstackerson wrote: »

Darkfall is (was) about as precise as you can get and played a lot like a shooter, especially the first one. ESO also allows you to shoot targets that are far away.

I think MO2 holds that category now, with it's small player-base. I found MO2 required a much higher twitch skill for action combat than BDO -which I think is a major reason it's such a niche game.

The either/or argument on tab/action isn't very interesting imo. Now - how to blend those two as a hybrid is a different story.

I don't think that Ashes will knock it out of the park in the first few iterations, but I think they will increment their way to something very solid and enjoyable. However, the speed of those increments is going to depend greatly on the quality of feedback provided during testing. If we're stuck in these entrenched tab-camp v. AC-camp, the overall feedback is going to suffer.

My suggestion is that we pivot toward decomposing the elements of both models we most enjoy, then discuss what those elements would look like in a hybrid experience.

Edit: For instance - ranged combat (bows/xbows). Do we want to cycle a basic attack w/LMB on the reticle (similar to FPS) or do we want to have LMB mapped to a selectable ability (which could also be the basic attack)? Or is there a better way to handle this? If I have a target lock mechanism - how does the basic attack function when I have one mob target-locked and a different mob in my reticle? What happens when the target-locked mob is behind me and there's a mob in front of me under my reticle?

Ludullu

CROW3 wrote: »

My suggestion is that we pivot toward decomposing the elements of both models we most enjoy, then discuss what those elements would look like in a hybrid experience.

Yep, which is why I'm gonna be pushing for "target play" in the tab side. It would not only raise the skill ceiling, but would also help with the hybridness of the combat, cause it would either push people towards trying out action abilities or just get used to being more aware of their targeting than just clicking once and unloading everything w/o worry.

Mag7spy

MO2 is defiantly a hardcore game, its not fast but it has a lot of small details you need to act on to survive from the bit I've seen on it. Though a bit too hardcore for me lol.

mcstackerson

NiKr wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Darkfall is (was) about as precise as you can get and played a lot like a shooter, especially the first one. ESO also allows you to shoot targets that are far away.

Darkfall definitely seems close to what I imagine when I think about difficult action combat. Though it looked fairly slow in the video, so I guess you could still get more hardcore. ESO didn't feel as precise though. Maybe it was just the class in the video or it just doesn't translate through video as well.

Have you played all 3 (BDO being the 3rd)? Which one would you consider the most difficult one mechanically/aiming-wise?

Yea, i've played all 3 and Darkfall is by far the hardest to aim. It probably the highest skill ceiling i have seen in an MMO. BDO plays more like a fighting game and ESO is more forgiving but the requirement to aim is still there. Do you have a video the shows off the targeting you are talking about?

CROW3 wrote: »

My suggestion is that we pivot toward decomposing the elements of both models we most enjoy, then discuss what those elements would look like in a hybrid experience.

I agree.

For me, free aiming/action gives more control. I like that if i press a skill, it's going to be used and will go where i'm aiming. On the defensive side, i like that aiming means i can dodge my opponents skills which further increases that feeling of control. There is more i can do to keep myself alive and if i die, it feels like it was more my fault.

This extra control makes me feel closer to my character and more immersed in the game.

Azherae

I really don't feel like getting into yet another one of these, but just in case my understanding or opinion matters.

BDO is actually still the hardest, Mag is right.

BDO just has a gentle 'learning curve' for more casual players, for the exact reason that we are discussing in general. Most players actually cannot do this at the level required and so the game simply makes it so that you don't have to for about 90% of its PvE.

Know that I say this not as a fan of the game, nor even of its specific form of Combat, I definitely expect to prefer what Ashes does, but bearing in mind that in almost all these cases, PvP is the main thing being referred to (the number of people who could code a scaling PvE encounter in proper Action Combat in this industry can't be that high, but I hear some are at Intrepid so yay!).

I assure those of you who have not played 'full' BDO that the mechanical depth and requirements of the game increase very fast in the PvE encounters that actually get close to PvP.

Are they good/fun/fair encounters? Not claiming that (except Katzvariak). But they are definitely 'similar or higher in difficulty relative to the vast majority of FPS and similar games'.

But don't take my word for it, you can level to 60 in BDO in 3 hours if you use their giant piles of catchup mechanics, autorun options, EXP boosts, and so on. At which point you can go check literally all of it yourself if you actually care.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

My suggestion is that we pivot toward decomposing the elements of both models we most enjoy, then discuss what those elements would look like in a hybrid experience.

Yep, which is why I'm gonna be pushing for "target play" in the tab side. It would not only raise the skill ceiling, but would also help with the hybridness of the combat, cause it would either push people towards trying out action abilities or just get used to being more aware of their targeting than just clicking once and unloading everything w/o worry.

Target play is great, and honestly should be how some of act action combat is for range classes. Not everything needs to be hardcore with aim, its still a mmorpg and good to have a mix and why I was supporting having soft targeting as it makes it easier on the player base. Though still having some harder moves to aim with bonuses that come from difficulty is good to mix things up as well on action side.

The point of action isn't to make it exclusive and as hard as possible but to have more curves of skill available for players. It should be accessible and fair, it doesn't need to be you missed a pixel on hitting someone before your aim was slightly off like you are using a sniper or something. It just needs to have a nice skill curve to it and is fun and immersive.

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