Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I disagree as we dont know the limitations of tracking yet. it could be much shorter range and with dodge, roll and evasive mechanics alike (including environmental and other player collision), it could be quite viable, especially if they reward players for not using the tab target tracking. There could definitely be a downside to using tab target system regardless of locking or target cycling.
Aim botters are technically cheaters and should be reported and banned from the game as it violates the TOS. You're making a comparison about combat mechanics in relation to cheaters, no offence or anything
I'd prefer full action but I know a lot of people don't want that. Plus full action in big scale PvP will likely be more laggy than a hybrid. You also need decent framerate to aim properly.
*edit Miss chance should apply to everything with stat sheets nothing is hitting 100% of the time unless you have the stats for it.
Nah, thats no real option. Because you as a advocate to action combat are giving all other options restrictions except for your prefered action combat system.
There should be no disadvantages, if you are choosing one system over another. If you like action combat choose it, but dont expect to get some kind of goody cause you did so. This is going to be a MMO not a FPS game.
There should be 100% disadvantages and of course you get bonus for action combat, you need to aim your your shots. One relates to rng and dmg, while other relates to aim.
Yes you are right this is a mmorpg that is hybrid which means it has action combat as well. If you don't want to do free aim with the challenges that come with it, then go with a easier system that works for you.
If you are worried about a disadvantage of a player out skilling you, work towards getting better that is all.
A perfect example of how a MMO Combat System should never look like is in New World. The strategic approach to a fight is a joke. Everybody is sitting in the back shooting with their muskets accross the whole map killing a person from time to time via head shot and call that skill and good gameplay...
I play New World every day. I like OPR and Arenas to an extend (and am able to aim btw) but as I can compare the game to other MMOs I can see how bad of an influence its fighting system is to this kind of gamemodes.
So what you are saying is someone is better then you skill wise and you can't compete with them.... You realize you can't have 100% of tab target skills in this game, the game is also going to have 75% action based skills if you want. Regardless of what you want the game is still going to be balanced around tab and action.
When you are playing action you are using your brain and your skill, stop trying to separate both them like they are two different games. I doubt there will be headshots in this game tbh though. Sitting back and shooting is the point of range so I'm not sure what you are trying to talk about there with both action and tab they will all be sitting in the back shooting you.
Why are you comparing hit scan muskets in ashes of creation? Ashes of creation and new world both have different combat so that point is a redhearing.
Brain and skill make the best game, I'd argue you aren't really using your brain in pvp if you are sitting on a wall toggling abilities 1-20 and everything is tab target and auto hitting who you are attacking lmao.
Thats not what I was saying. Please stop trying to degrade people just to make your point...
I wanna have skill shots in the game, not tab abilities as you can read in my first statement.
I dont wanna see arrows flying accross the whole battlegorund like in New World...
As I see your last sentences I doubt that you have ever played world of warcraft in high elo arenas
You want to have skill shots great, so ban your basic attack be a skill shot. Else if you want to use tab target its not as effective as free aim or soft targeting.
I want to see arrows flying across the map, and if those arrows have 100% accuracy from tab target they shouldn't have the same range or same dmg since every arrow is landing on a person. Same goes for soft target as those arrows shouldnt miss but will take more effort to make sure you are looking who you want and hitting that person with a chance of missing sometimes. And f you want to got he sniper route where you have a way higher chance of missing that should be fine as well with the bonus's you get from it.
Your idea of making everything pointless and forcing tab target for basic attacks BY removing any incentive of skill for free aim or soft target sounds like poor design.
Degrade people lol? When you get called out and try to compare WoW arena when I don't care about WoW nor play it. Any reason for you to not want people that put skill into a shot and be rewarded sounds like more of a you issue that you can't handle either dodging it or using it.
You are also making assumptions you can hit anywhere on the battlefield with a arrow that will clearly have a limit on range or a more heavy drop off. You compared muskets to bows your whole previous points didn't make any sense.
Again nothing wrong arrows flying on the battlefield, that is a ranger class and mage class. Use your brain as you said to avoid or reduce the range damage with team work.
You can see the acceptance to action combat systems with those kinds of problems in games like new world if you just look at the playernumbers. They are close to not existing...
And all you want to do the whole time is forcing that kind of playstyle onto other players only cause u know nothing else than action games.
Instead of excepting that there could be both, cross aim based classes and tab target based classes. There would be no restrictions on and no degrading of any combat system choices...
Aka you can play your cross aiming archer class (with a slight higher distance than other ranged classes and with higher dmg per hit) which fits your idea of a perfect and fair system. But let other ppl pick different ranged classes where the core gameplay doesnt build around aiming basic attacks rather than the use of skill shot abilities e.g....
The difference between hit scan and projectile is huge and I see 0 issue with pvp a range class is a range class. Stop comparing new world and Ashes as their gameplay and systems work completely differently, you are purposely being disingenuous.
If I look at tab target mmorpgs I see them dying and not growing, same player base that doesn't reach a new audience. Your point of new world numbers makes no sense when that game had other issues so stop using points that make no sense.
My point was having all play styles and having incentive for the effort you need to put in, nothing is being forced. If you want to do top dmg you need to have a good build and land shots, else you can do the more easy play style. 101 if something takes more effort, there needs to be a reason for the effort else it won't be used. Where I bring actual design ideas your point is to make everything the same so its pointless to soft targeting or free aim because you don't want people to use it against you like you are weirdly going to die in one shot or something. Again stop using new world as a reference, this is AoC not new world.
If you are playing tab target where you don't need to look at your screen to shit a enemy you shouldn't do the same damage as someone that might be missing 50% of their shots. That also doesn't mean free aim gets 100% dmg bonus, designers balance out the game that makes sense for the effort and to keep things fair.
I doubt in a siege everyone will be a archer but if that is their meta having archers with free aim to snipe people all the power to them, they will be weaker in other points. New world has 3 weapons with skills trees and you swap between them in combat, AoC has your one class and skill tree. Arrows should be flying over the place, as they are rangers and it helps to add a epic feeling to the fight and players able to use their skill to win in pvp that will be their strong and fun point. Once melee gets in range they will have a clear disadvantage without the walls and high ground.
That game had some good patches and good additions and bugfixing over the last month and still no players are coming back...
All in all I agree with your statement that more effort equals more reward.
But the fact is, that we are playing a MMO not a FPS game so ppl shouldnt make the effort to train their aim since the majority of ppl decline that system in the first place.
The core dmgoutput should come from other sources like your abilities not from your basic hits. So there is no need to degrade different player choices when it comes to combat style...
If a class relies on aiming their basic attacks, these attacks should do an impactfull amount of dmg.
BUT not every ranged class should depent on basic attacks to get their dmg out. So for those classes there is no need to include aiming or to adjust basic hits dmg depending on the system choice you made...
Why are you still talking about new world and player numbers that doesn't mean anything....
This is a mmo with hybrid combat which means aiming is involved, that doesn't make it a shooter no oen is running around with a mp5 spraying people down. Any action mmo you need to train your aim as not all skills with be tab. And if you don't want to put the effort in to getting better then the tab target mode is still there it just will deal less dmg because absolutely no effort is involved to basic attack with range tab target.
You keep talking about degrading player choice tab target has perfect aim that is your bonus right there. There is nothing to be salty about someone who can out play with basic attacks by aiming themselves its simply get good in PvP, if you don't want to get better on basic attacks then don't. Basic attacks aren't he only element to gameplay as you have skills you will need to aim and those skills should as well have bonusses based on the effort put into them. So either way the person that has better aim and skill (which includes knowledge of skill mechanics) will win the fight.
People worried about someone having better aim with their skills and basic attacks and getting more dmg from it, simply have a goal to reach. You have your mechs down perfectly now you have another learning curve you can try and see how you do, or just go as far as you can with tab target if you aren't confident in landing your shots.
Again nothing is degraded you have perfect aim while able to use all your dodge skills and movement to have others miss shots or you need to put effort in to get more dmg while also using your dodge skills and tracking.. Risk vrs reward
To contrast on your player number thing, i see a lot of people playing shooters these days, having something in to get more eyes and people interested in the game never hurts ;o. Still doesn't mean its a fps just because you have to aim your basic skill since there are all the other things that make a mmorpg and your skills you have access to, that you also have to aim lol
Btw your argument with the playernumbers in action games has a flaw. The majority of those you can find in the shooter genre and NOT in MMOs. So i am right. Its about the preference of the MMO community. They reject aiming.
true. we dont know nothing. but we are here cause steven says ppls opinions matter when designing the game. thats why we both are talking right now in the forum...
That is the reason why you clarfy your opinion on things and i do mine.
You’re a bit out of your depth in the neurological component action combat in this genre if your analysis is summarized as a “degenerated headshot party”. They are using their brains to pull that off and it requires skills that Tab Target combat cannot offer.
Target acquisition, target tracking, strafing and counter strafing require a bit to pull off successfully and there’s a bit more too it.
We'll have to test to see how successful hybrid combat is.
Suggesting ESO combat is good made me throw up in my mouth a little. That entire system is the opposite of fluidity imo.
That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one.
I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized.
The one that should deal the most dmg is soft target and free aim. And the one that takes the most skill should be prioritized. Though how much the player can make use of their skill will add a learning curve and desire to improve as no one is going to have 100% accuracy all the time. And for people that want the easier option where they don't need to try for basic attacks it is there for them. Balance will be part of the job for design so it makes sense for normal player accuracy and dmg done, which will vary based on how much mobility is in the game and pve content.
Ah, but your current argument is directly "harder=priority" which in essence is incorrect. The priority should be fluidity in combat. If nothing else, whats the harm in having tab targeting and action combat dealing the same damage, while tab has a %hit chance and action combat relies entirely on ones own ability to hit? Satisfies provision of both playstyles and maintains the idea that if youre skilled enough, you wont miss as much as the tab targeting system, therefore dealing more damage.
Fluidity of combat I don't view as the same as balance. Between free aim, soft target and tab everything should be fluid (granted tab isn't hard to make fluid compared to action combat).
Making sure those feel fluid is good but next step comes balancing of how those systems work. I do not like the miss% chance and 100% accuracy on free aim or soft target. As hybrid stats should be a prio as its a mmorpg and there shouldn't be a way around to have 100% hit chance. That is simply a way around to reduce dmg and it create artificial frustration when something misses because of a system you are using. Its much easier to adjust using a flat form of dmg that is more consistent. People using harder options might do less dmg in some instances and more in others. They will have something they can work towards improving and better players will deal more dmg and be rewarded for their skill.
Overall I don't think its that big a deal for different choices and trade off this is just a basic attack after all we are talking about. We don't know what the ratio between basic attacks and player use of skill with how often things will be used.
Balance is obviously a priority but if it doesnt feel fluid you wont have good combat. Balance comes after everything is made, fluidity is part of the process of making the combat. That being said, how do you balance an action combat player who never misses? And how would you balance action combat ranged attacks against a raid boss? You wont miss a massive dragon so you would never use tab targeting in a raid if it does more damage, hence making tab targeting obsolete.
I'm aware of that, balance is after making sure the system feels good, but I'm not talking about fluidity I'm talking about balance.
If you are fighting a large target it will 100% be easier to aim and land your shots on it, doesn't mean adds wont be around as well. Even with it being easier for this certain mob some people still wouldn't want to do it because people don't want to put effort in or try to aim. So even having a easier target there is still some amount of effort that goes into attacking the mob.
The game has to be balanced for both pve and pvp, and balancing around some mobs are large being a much smaller amount of content that the normal player is doing, isn't good enough to have damage be the same either way. If it was that big a deal, you can just adjust values and lower the damage increase on free and soft target lock technically. Though I don't think that is really needed, as balancing content around like 1-5% over a basic attack seems a bit unnecessary. I can see action based ranger skills dealing more dmg anyway over most tab target ones but that part is more so me just guessing..