ItsmeToki wrote: » Arrows, or bullets, doesnt make a difference to me if they both create the same problems for PvP Gamemodes. You can see the acceptance to action combat systems with those kinds of problems in games like new world if you just look at the playernumbers. They are close to not existing... And all you want to do the whole time is forcing that kind of playstyle onto other players only cause u know nothing else than action games. Instead of excepting that there could be both, cross aim based classes and tab target based classes. There would be no restrictions on and no degrading of any combat system choices...
Mag7spy wrote: » ItsmeToki wrote: » Arrows, or bullets, doesnt make a difference to me if they both create the same problems for PvP Gamemodes. You can see the acceptance to action combat systems with those kinds of problems in games like new world if you just look at the playernumbers. They are close to not existing... And all you want to do the whole time is forcing that kind of playstyle onto other players only cause u know nothing else than action games. Instead of excepting that there could be both, cross aim based classes and tab target based classes. There would be no restrictions on and no degrading of any combat system choices... The difference between hit scan and projectile is huge and I see 0 issue with pvp a range class is a range class. Stop comparing new world and Ashes as their gameplay and systems work completely differently, you are purposely being disingenuous. If I look at tab target mmorpgs I see them dying and not growing, same player base that doesn't reach a new audience. Your point of new world numbers makes no sense when that game had other issues so stop using points that make no sense. My point was having all play styles and having incentive for the effort you need to put in, nothing is being forced. If you want to do top dmg you need to have a good build and land shots, else you can do the more easy play style. 101 if something takes more effort, there needs to be a reason for the effort else it won't be used. Where I bring actual design ideas your point is to make everything the same so its pointless to soft targeting or free aim because you don't want people to use it against you like you are weirdly going to die in one shot or something. Again stop using new world as a reference, this is AoC not new world. If you are playing tab target where you don't need to look at your screen to shit a enemy you shouldn't do the same damage as someone that might be missing 50% of their shots. That also doesn't mean free aim gets 100% dmg bonus, designers balance out the game that makes sense for the effort and to keep things fair. I doubt in a siege everyone will be a archer but if that is their meta having archers with free aim to snipe people all the power to them, they will be weaker in other points. New world has 3 weapons with skills trees and you swap between them in combat, AoC has your one class and skill tree. Arrows should be flying over the place, as they are rangers and it helps to add a epic feeling to the fight and players able to use their skill to win in pvp that will be their strong and fun point. Once melee gets in range they will have a clear disadvantage without the walls and high ground.
ItsmeToki wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » ItsmeToki wrote: » Arrows, or bullets, doesnt make a difference to me if they both create the same problems for PvP Gamemodes. You can see the acceptance to action combat systems with those kinds of problems in games like new world if you just look at the playernumbers. They are close to not existing... And all you want to do the whole time is forcing that kind of playstyle onto other players only cause u know nothing else than action games. Instead of excepting that there could be both, cross aim based classes and tab target based classes. There would be no restrictions on and no degrading of any combat system choices... The difference between hit scan and projectile is huge and I see 0 issue with pvp a range class is a range class. Stop comparing new world and Ashes as their gameplay and systems work completely differently, you are purposely being disingenuous. If I look at tab target mmorpgs I see them dying and not growing, same player base that doesn't reach a new audience. Your point of new world numbers makes no sense when that game had other issues so stop using points that make no sense. My point was having all play styles and having incentive for the effort you need to put in, nothing is being forced. If you want to do top dmg you need to have a good build and land shots, else you can do the more easy play style. 101 if something takes more effort, there needs to be a reason for the effort else it won't be used. Where I bring actual design ideas your point is to make everything the same so its pointless to soft targeting or free aim because you don't want people to use it against you like you are weirdly going to die in one shot or something. Again stop using new world as a reference, this is AoC not new world. If you are playing tab target where you don't need to look at your screen to shit a enemy you shouldn't do the same damage as someone that might be missing 50% of their shots. That also doesn't mean free aim gets 100% dmg bonus, designers balance out the game that makes sense for the effort and to keep things fair. I doubt in a siege everyone will be a archer but if that is their meta having archers with free aim to snipe people all the power to them, they will be weaker in other points. New world has 3 weapons with skills trees and you swap between them in combat, AoC has your one class and skill tree. Arrows should be flying over the place, as they are rangers and it helps to add a epic feeling to the fight and players able to use their skill to win in pvp that will be their strong and fun point. Once melee gets in range they will have a clear disadvantage without the walls and high ground. That game had some good patches and good additions and bugfixing over the last month and still no players are coming back... All in all I agree with your statement that more effort equals more reward. But the fact is, that we are playing a MMO not a FPS game so ppl shouldnt make the effort to train their aim since the majority of ppl decline that system in the first place. The focus of core dmgoutput should come from other sources not from your basic hits. So there is no need to degrade different player choices when it comes to combat style...
Mag7spy wrote: » WE don't know the balancing or direction, if your main source of your dmg was basic attacks and those basic attacks were tab target, think about that for a second......
ItsmeToki wrote: » I myself dont wanna play a game, where the outcome of a fight is decided by some degenerated headshotparty. Start using your brains to solve challenging situations instead of your eyes only... A perfect example of how a MMO Combat System should never look like is in New World. The strategic approach to a fight is a joke. Everybody is sitting in the back shooting with their muskets accross the whole map killing a person from time to time via head shot and call that skill and good gameplay... I play New World every day. I like OPR and Arenas to an extend (and am able to aim btw) but as I can compare the game to other MMOs I can see how bad of an influence its fighting system is to this kind of gamemodes.
TheDarkSorcerer wrote: » Just copy ESO combat and call it a day. It's Hybrid enough. You will hit your target in whatever direction your crosshair is, or whatever direction you're looking. Same with healing, you heal in a cone shape in front of you. So as long as your friends are in front of you, they are healed.
Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre.
Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one.
Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized.
Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized. The one that should deal the most dmg is soft target and free aim. And the one that takes the most skill should be prioritized. Though how much the player can make use of their skill will add a learning curve and desire to improve as no one is going to have 100% accuracy all the time. And for people that want the easier option where they don't need to try for basic attacks it is there for them. Balance will be part of the job for design so it makes sense for normal player accuracy and dmg done, which will vary based on how much mobility is in the game and pve content.
Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized. The one that should deal the most dmg is soft target and free aim. And the one that takes the most skill should be prioritized. Though how much the player can make use of their skill will add a learning curve and desire to improve as no one is going to have 100% accuracy all the time. And for people that want the easier option where they don't need to try for basic attacks it is there for them. Balance will be part of the job for design so it makes sense for normal player accuracy and dmg done, which will vary based on how much mobility is in the game and pve content. Ah, but your current argument is directly "harder=priority" which in essence is incorrect. The priority should be fluidity in combat. If nothing else, whats the harm in having tab targeting and action combat dealing the same damage, while tab has a %hit chance and action combat relies entirely on ones own ability to hit? Satisfies provision of both playstyles and maintains the idea that if youre skilled enough, you wont miss as much as the tab targeting system, therefore dealing more damage.
Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized. The one that should deal the most dmg is soft target and free aim. And the one that takes the most skill should be prioritized. Though how much the player can make use of their skill will add a learning curve and desire to improve as no one is going to have 100% accuracy all the time. And for people that want the easier option where they don't need to try for basic attacks it is there for them. Balance will be part of the job for design so it makes sense for normal player accuracy and dmg done, which will vary based on how much mobility is in the game and pve content. Ah, but your current argument is directly "harder=priority" which in essence is incorrect. The priority should be fluidity in combat. If nothing else, whats the harm in having tab targeting and action combat dealing the same damage, while tab has a %hit chance and action combat relies entirely on ones own ability to hit? Satisfies provision of both playstyles and maintains the idea that if youre skilled enough, you wont miss as much as the tab targeting system, therefore dealing more damage. Fluidity of combat I don't view as the same as balance. Between free aim, soft target and tab everything should be fluid (granted tab isn't hard to make fluid compared to action combat). Making sure those feel fluid is good but next step comes balancing of how those systems work. I do not like the miss% chance and 100% accuracy on free aim or soft target. As hybrid stats should be a prio as its a mmorpg and there shouldn't be a way around to have 100% hit chance. That is simply a way around to reduce dmg and it create artificial frustration when something misses because of a system you are using. Its much easier to adjust using a flat form of dmg that is more consistent. People using harder options might do less dmg in some instances and more in others. They will have something they can work towards improving and better players will deal more dmg and be rewarded for their skill. Overall I don't think its that big a deal for different choices and trade off this is just a basic attack after all we are talking about. We don't know what the ratio between basic attacks and player use of skill with how often things will be used.
Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » I will point out that for those of you stating that ranged combat should be entirely skill based action combat aren't considering the massive population of MMO players who will either never play ranged classes or just won't play the game in general due to the skill learning curve or just the playstyle in general of action combat ranged attacks. Most MMO players dont want the FPS vibe that comes with action combat. And while I dont have a problem with it, it will likely hurt the games population considering its genre. That is why in my posted I had a option for every type. So it considers all play styles with benefits for each one. I saw, but that is a tall order to give intrepid by making them create several combat systems for each class. It also is going to be an illusion of choice if one system or the other gives a significant advantage over the other, whether it be tab targeting making it into easy mode consistent damage or if its action combat skillshots doing superior damage if youre skilled enough to land the hits. There is no real choice, whichever is more efficient at killing in the game is the one that will be prioritized. The one that should deal the most dmg is soft target and free aim. And the one that takes the most skill should be prioritized. Though how much the player can make use of their skill will add a learning curve and desire to improve as no one is going to have 100% accuracy all the time. And for people that want the easier option where they don't need to try for basic attacks it is there for them. Balance will be part of the job for design so it makes sense for normal player accuracy and dmg done, which will vary based on how much mobility is in the game and pve content. Ah, but your current argument is directly "harder=priority" which in essence is incorrect. The priority should be fluidity in combat. If nothing else, whats the harm in having tab targeting and action combat dealing the same damage, while tab has a %hit chance and action combat relies entirely on ones own ability to hit? Satisfies provision of both playstyles and maintains the idea that if youre skilled enough, you wont miss as much as the tab targeting system, therefore dealing more damage. Fluidity of combat I don't view as the same as balance. Between free aim, soft target and tab everything should be fluid (granted tab isn't hard to make fluid compared to action combat). Making sure those feel fluid is good but next step comes balancing of how those systems work. I do not like the miss% chance and 100% accuracy on free aim or soft target. As hybrid stats should be a prio as its a mmorpg and there shouldn't be a way around to have 100% hit chance. That is simply a way around to reduce dmg and it create artificial frustration when something misses because of a system you are using. Its much easier to adjust using a flat form of dmg that is more consistent. People using harder options might do less dmg in some instances and more in others. They will have something they can work towards improving and better players will deal more dmg and be rewarded for their skill. Overall I don't think its that big a deal for different choices and trade off this is just a basic attack after all we are talking about. We don't know what the ratio between basic attacks and player use of skill with how often things will be used. Balance is obviously a priority but if it doesnt feel fluid you wont have good combat. Balance comes after everything is made, fluidity is part of the process of making the combat. That being said, how do you balance a player who never misses? And how would you balance action combat ranged attacks against a raid boss? You wont miss a massive dragon so you would never use tab targeting in a raid if it does more damage, hence making tab targeting obsolete.
