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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Action Combat for meele classes, tab targeting for ranged classes
ItsmeToki
Member, Alpha Two
What do you guys prefer, cross aiming or tab targeting for ranged dps classes?
Furthermore would you like to see different approaches with different classes?
EG:
- Ranged agility based classes (like hunters) -> Action Combat (Cross aim) with basic attacks
- Ranged intelligence based classes (like mages) --> Tab Targeting with basic attacks + skill shot abilities
Since with mage classes the core gameplay is to land your abilities (where the most dmg comes from), i think tab targeting for your basic attacks should be fine. The skill with intelligence based classes shouldnt be measured by what player has the best aim in the game.
It should be measured by the tactical use of your set of abilities and by landing those. IMO
But there should be room for players, who come from fps games, as well. They should be able to show their skill and beeing rewarded in fights too e.g. by having a good aim. I dont know the exact numbers but with my knowlege from other games like New World I can imagine that those fps oriented players like are choosing classes with bows, gunpowder weappons, etc.
So why dont we do cross aiming your basic attacks for those agility based classes and tab targeting your basic attacks for intelligence based classes?
Since we are talking about two different approaches of dmg output you would have the advantage of adjusting the dmg output of the classes individually when balancing the classes overall. From my point of view this would be a better solution for the balacing overall rather than giving people the choice of swapping between action and tabtargeting with any ranged dps class.
Furthermore would you like to see different approaches with different classes?
EG:
- Ranged agility based classes (like hunters) -> Action Combat (Cross aim) with basic attacks
- Ranged intelligence based classes (like mages) --> Tab Targeting with basic attacks + skill shot abilities
Since with mage classes the core gameplay is to land your abilities (where the most dmg comes from), i think tab targeting for your basic attacks should be fine. The skill with intelligence based classes shouldnt be measured by what player has the best aim in the game.
It should be measured by the tactical use of your set of abilities and by landing those. IMO
But there should be room for players, who come from fps games, as well. They should be able to show their skill and beeing rewarded in fights too e.g. by having a good aim. I dont know the exact numbers but with my knowlege from other games like New World I can imagine that those fps oriented players like are choosing classes with bows, gunpowder weappons, etc.
So why dont we do cross aiming your basic attacks for those agility based classes and tab targeting your basic attacks for intelligence based classes?
Since we are talking about two different approaches of dmg output you would have the advantage of adjusting the dmg output of the classes individually when balancing the classes overall. From my point of view this would be a better solution for the balacing overall rather than giving people the choice of swapping between action and tabtargeting with any ranged dps class.
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Comments
That said I’m opposed to offensive abilities being tab, if you can’t aim get aimlabs.
1. Tab target everything auto hits
2. Soft lock action combat. (When you look in a direction it locks on to the target that is close to your cursor. It is a mix between free aim and tab target and i believe this is the best inbetween imo)
3. Free aim (Must aim your shots and predict travel time.
All 3 of those choices could have adjustments in the weapon tree so the player can pick the style they enjoy most. Tab target being the one that deals the least amount of dmg. And free aim being the one that deals the most amount of dmg. Rng would be reduced for tab target and soft lock as well for how far they can hit a target. Free aim having the highest amount of rng to hit a target.
This allows for all play styles with clear edges for people that are putting in more effort then someone that is tabbing and just attacking without worrying about aim and such. So a skilled player will 100% win fights.
I am simply talking about your basic attacks
I think there are a lot off MMO players who like tab targeting only. With a cross aiming combat system like
new world has to offer (I like OPR and Arenas in that game btw and dont mind cross aiming) I am just worried, you will loose a hugh playerbase for AoC if you decide going for cross aiming as the only viable choice if we are talking about competitive PvP.
I wanna measure my skill with players who come from MMOs like Wow who have mastered the tactical use of abilities.
I dont wanna measure my skill with aiming heros only.
Thats all i am saying.
There is 100% choice as you have the easier system and incentive to use other systems if you are skilled enough or want to improve. If the person is better then you, there isn't anything you can do that is just how it is. Characters still have abilities and id expect abilities where you aim to deal more dmg then tab target abilities.
There is no reason why a tab target skill or auto attack should be near effective as someone that actually has to aim their ability.
And considering that there'll be tab targeting in the game, I'd definitely like for there to be abilities that play with targeting. Switch your tab to another target or remove your tab target completely, or hold your tab on some target (I'd mainly attribute this to tank agro skills), or have a dot-like debuff that constantly retargets you unless you dispel the debuff - all of those would add skill-based requirements to the tab target part of the game, while also allowing the skilled action players to circumvent them completely (with agro maybe pulling your crosshair towards the tank slowly).
Well I would agree but tab is a must. The current MMO market is quite used to it. To not include it in the game would be unwise. The alternative is coming up with a whole different kind of combat system that includes both targeting and aimed abilities - BUT also flows and feels natural. Very few games can achieve that and I am not entirely sure Intrepid can do it. Sooo let Intrepid do their thing the way they promised it.
Then again, melee have it easy too when they are in your face and just spamming autos on you.
Now, would you want a rogue throwing a dagger to be action or tab?
Personally I would prefer if ranged attacks were action oriented, but hit much harder instead as a reward for landing your shots.
Btw I'm pretty sure that you will be able to costumize your ability tiers 1-4, to make them more action combat favored for more dmg when landing your hits or more tab-target oriented, but with a reduction in dmg and cc limitations. - Steven quote, on the wiki
The system they have for AoC where the crosshair indicates a lock-on for the tracking and target is a smart choice in my opinion. It gives the option for tab targeting style to be engaging by having a tracking system implemented depending on ability type (assuming IIRC about the example used in the video)
There are action combat style abilities in tab targeting heavy games such as WoW. Believe it or not, it's a hybrid system that leans much more towards the tab target side of things. Not all the abilities in WoW require you to have a target and have directional aiming for their cast but that does not mean it's a tab target, it's their version of the hybrid system.
It always comes down to the type of ability and how it functions.
For melee, action combat makes much more sense. Not being able to perform an ability because you don't have a target to hit is just not immersive and for a new and modern game, feels out of place.
One of the things that bothers me about many games is how when the projectile is tracking towards the target, it has no clipping so you cant line of sight it which I believe AoC is worked towards to prevent that sort of ridiculousness in combat. Projectiles in a modern game should have physics, especially in an engine like UE5 which can easily handle that regardless of the server side of things and their shards.
terrain/environment interactions between characters and their abilities need to exist in modern games.
At this time stamp 2:18
Once you are locked on the target auto attacks allways hit both in tab target and action mode, this would allow for free movment as well + free aim usage of abilities while keeping target selected. unless target runs out of range or breaks line of sight.
The MMO can have both of these too. With a twist. One is soft-locked, meaning it still requires a little bit of aiming and the arrow travel will be automatic. The accuracy depends on the player stats (INT). The other one is completely free aim and is projectile. This will be significantly harder to use thus it will have higher base damage. High enough to justify the difficulty.
I'm not saying they'll bring back those two bows from Apocalypse but if they do, I don't see any reason to not test them out.
If you guys have played wow on rank one gladiator lvl tho, you woulnd argue that there is a lot of skill involved in a tab target oriented combat system. The skill is more about counter reaction. Its like a game of speed chess. So please reconsider in your answers, if in AoC the abilitykits are as complex as in a game like wow and furthermore you have to aim every single basic attack, combat can get quit challenging and would build a hugh gab in playerskills.
I played WoW, it involves data intelligence. But it doesn’t have the additional layer needed to play action combat well.
No one is talking about math evasion stats, if you click a tab skill on a person you don't need to aim it will be used on them 100%. In a action based you need to aim therefore you have a chance to miss your aim.
If we go to programming on a simply level (im not a programmer but have a basic understanding on it). Tab target uses an ability on a target as long as there is no line of site it will 100% be effected on that target.
For the game to consider evading dmg on a character it needs to connect with the target else you would never see the evasion stat.
If you really believe its the same not much else I can say.
With Tab Target, there will be more RNG and stat calculation to determine whether it's a hit or miss and resolve any damage or FX.
With Action Combat it will be based much more on player skills.
I didn't say anything about them being "the same".
for action combat? I hope not, tab targeting feature with the auto-aim tracking is already enough especially when you consider an archer classes arrow tracking lol. Just looks silly.
a bit of a tangent but it's a shame that in games like COD, BF and Destiny 2 that they coded in aim assist. In Destiny 2, it's what caused many gamers to not want to play it. Different guns have different range allowances for how the aim assist works before you get into attachments.
Anyways, as mentioned, the more true aim assist has a good chance of being the tab target lock on feature where as with AC potentially more liberal with the hit box interaction.
This is an RPG after all, not an FPS. And if ranged combat requires the skills & effort of manual crosshair aiming, then I'd argue it should also come with the perks of crosshair aiming so the whole hassle feels rewarding instead of just being a source of stress:
- All targets (mobs, bosses, players) should have weak points that can be aimed at for extra high damage, and armored / shielded spots that reduce incoming ranged damage. So I can boast my awesome aiming skills (when I finally have it) that I can headshot everything!
- Sniper crossbows with scopes / super long range sniping spells should be a thing, so I can put my hardly earned aiming skills (as demanded by all the "learn to play / practice & improve your skills" folks out there) to good use.
... Sounds broken? I'd think so too. This is going to set the bar too high for many RPG players (not everyone loves and actively plays FPS), and it's gonna cause a ton of balancing issues, and likely also put a heavier load on the servers.
So, please just let the tab targeting stick around, and let action-aimed skills remain as OPTIONs.