Action Combat for meele classes, tab targeting for ranged classes

ItsmeToki

What do you guys prefer, cross aiming or tab targeting for ranged dps classes?
Furthermore would you like to see different approaches with different classes?
EG:
- Ranged agility based classes (like hunters) -> Action Combat (Cross aim) with basic attacks
- Ranged intelligence based classes (like mages) --> Tab Targeting with basic attacks + skill shot abilities

Since with mage classes the core gameplay is to land your abilities (where the most dmg comes from), i think tab targeting for your basic attacks should be fine. The skill with intelligence based classes shouldnt be measured by what player has the best aim in the game.
It should be measured by the tactical use of your set of abilities and by landing those. IMO

But there should be room for players, who come from fps games, as well. They should be able to show their skill and beeing rewarded in fights too e.g. by having a good aim. I dont know the exact numbers but with my knowlege from other games like New World I can imagine that those fps oriented players like are choosing classes with bows, gunpowder weappons, etc.

So why dont we do cross aiming your basic attacks for those agility based classes and tab targeting your basic attacks for intelligence based classes?

Since we are talking about two different approaches of dmg output you would have the advantage of adjusting the dmg output of the classes individually when balancing the classes overall. From my point of view this would be a better solution for the balacing overall rather than giving people the choice of swapping between action and tabtargeting with any ranged dps class.

Solvryn

It takes more to aim freely than tab. There’s just more to it.

That said I’m opposed to offensive abilities being tab, if you can’t aim get aimlabs.

Mag7spy

I know my preference as pro action combat but with he game being hybrid they can have more solutions.

1. Tab target everything auto hits
2. Soft lock action combat. (When you look in a direction it locks on to the target that is close to your cursor. It is a mix between free aim and tab target and i believe this is the best inbetween imo)
3. Free aim (Must aim your shots and predict travel time.

All 3 of those choices could have adjustments in the weapon tree so the player can pick the style they enjoy most. Tab target being the one that deals the least amount of dmg. And free aim being the one that deals the most amount of dmg. Rng would be reduced for tab target and soft lock as well for how far they can hit a target. Free aim having the highest amount of rng to hit a target.

This allows for all play styles with clear edges for people that are putting in more effort then someone that is tabbing and just attacking without worrying about aim and such. So a skilled player will 100% win fights.

ItsmeToki

I think you got me wrong. Nobody said, abilities should be tab...
I am simply talking about your basic attacks

ItsmeToki

If your dmg output depends on the kind of targetingsystem you choose, there is no real choice, cause action combat ,with the most dmg output, will be the meta every time.

I think there are a lot off MMO players who like tab targeting only. With a cross aiming combat system like
new world has to offer (I like OPR and Arenas in that game btw and dont mind cross aiming) I am just worried, you will loose a hugh playerbase for AoC if you decide going for cross aiming as the only viable choice if we are talking about competitive PvP.

I wanna measure my skill with players who come from MMOs like Wow who have mastered the tactical use of abilities.
I dont wanna measure my skill with aiming heros only.
Thats all i am saying.

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If your dmg output depends on the kind of targetingsystem you choose, there is no real choice, cause action combat ,with the most dmg output, will be the meta every time.

I think there are a lot off MMO players who like tab targeting only. With a cross aiming combat system like
new world has to offer (I like OPR and Arenas in that game btw and dont mind cross aiming) I am just worried, you will loose a hugh playerbase for AoC if you decide going for cross aiming as the only viable choice if we are talking about competitive PvP.

I wanna measure my skill with players who come from MMOs like Wow who have mastered the tactical use of abilities.
I dont wanna measure my skill with aiming heros only.
Thats all i am saying.

There is 100% choice as you have the easier system and incentive to use other systems if you are skilled enough or want to improve. If the person is better then you, there isn't anything you can do that is just how it is. Characters still have abilities and id expect abilities where you aim to deal more dmg then tab target abilities.

There is no reason why a tab target skill or auto attack should be near effective as someone that actually has to aim their ability.

Ludullu

I'd personally prefer a combination of L2's "when you press basic atk, your character turns towards your target and runs towards them until they're in range to attack" and Genshin's action aiming of "you can spam shoot if you want, but if you wait 3 secs, you're gonna do a much stronger hit".

And considering that there'll be tab targeting in the game, I'd definitely like for there to be abilities that play with targeting. Switch your tab to another target or remove your tab target completely, or hold your tab on some target (I'd mainly attribute this to tank agro skills), or have a dot-like debuff that constantly retargets you unless you dispel the debuff - all of those would add skill-based requirements to the tab target part of the game, while also allowing the skilled action players to circumvent them completely (with agro maybe pulling your crosshair towards the tank slowly).

Magic Man

Basic Attacks for ranged can be soft target I guess - like in ESO. Aiming each and every attack in ranged can be exhausting for the MMORPG audience. Action abilities tho you should be able to aim and land a hit.

Mag7spy

I can't agree with a combat system where you tab a target, your character moves and you start auto attacking. That is the game playing for you, that is 20 year old combat, we need to be moving beyond that.

Magic Man

Mag7spy wrote: »

I can't agree with a combat system where you tab a target, your character moves and you start auto attacking. That is the game playing for you, that is 20 year old combat, we need to be moving beyond that.

Well I would agree but tab is a must. The current MMO market is quite used to it. To not include it in the game would be unwise. The alternative is coming up with a whole different kind of combat system that includes both targeting and aimed abilities - BUT also flows and feels natural. Very few games can achieve that and I am not entirely sure Intrepid can do it. Sooo let Intrepid do their thing the way they promised it.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

I can't agree with a combat system where you tab a target, your character moves and you start auto attacking. That is the game playing for you, that is 20 year old combat, we need to be moving beyond that.

I shoulda specified. Considering that there won't be any autoattacks in Ashes, you'd still need to do attacks yourself. The game would only bring you into range, if you were outside of it. And you'd still have to properly move and position yourself within that range, and you'd have to control/switch between tab/action because your target might reposition and instead of doing some attack your character might try to move within range. I've had quite a few times where that movement would prevent me from doing a skill that I wanted to, so I'd have to learn how to control my character properly, which is part of the skill requirement of the game imo.

Mag7spy

Tab is 100% in the game but we don't need gameplay looking like everquest. They know that won't sell as well so I'm confident they will come up with something good and interesting. Based on their current direction with their last video as well it shows they want mobility and things to have some flash and not feel static.

Cutie

I have usually always disliked tab target ranged combat, due to how easy the casters will have it. There is no challenge to it and casters dont have to worry about mob or player collision when attacking from a distance.
Then again, melee have it easy too when they are in your face and just spamming autos on you.

Now, would you want a rogue throwing a dagger to be action or tab?

Personally I would prefer if ranged attacks were action oriented, but hit much harder instead as a reward for landing your shots.

Btw I'm pretty sure that you will be able to costumize your ability tiers 1-4, to make them more action combat favored for more dmg when landing your hits or more tab-target oriented, but with a reduction in dmg and cc limitations. - Steven quote, on the wiki

ItsmeToki

Thank you guys for your opinions

CROW3

Some of us ‘older’ guys love action too. 🤨🤗

Dygz

(Depending on how you define "Action", yeah.)

Enigmatic Sage

I've played plenty of tab targeting and action combat games. I have enjoyed both but I would say that tab targeting range does not feel as engaging and immersive as action combat.

The system they have for AoC where the crosshair indicates a lock-on for the tracking and target is a smart choice in my opinion. It gives the option for tab targeting style to be engaging by having a tracking system implemented depending on ability type (assuming IIRC about the example used in the video)

There are action combat style abilities in tab targeting heavy games such as WoW. Believe it or not, it's a hybrid system that leans much more towards the tab target side of things. Not all the abilities in WoW require you to have a target and have directional aiming for their cast but that does not mean it's a tab target, it's their version of the hybrid system.

It always comes down to the type of ability and how it functions.

For melee, action combat makes much more sense. Not being able to perform an ability because you don't have a target to hit is just not immersive and for a new and modern game, feels out of place.

One of the things that bothers me about many games is how when the projectile is tracking towards the target, it has no clipping so you cant line of sight it which I believe AoC is worked towards to prevent that sort of ridiculousness in combat. Projectiles in a modern game should have physics, especially in an engine like UE5 which can easily handle that regardless of the server side of things and their shards.

terrain/environment interactions between characters and their abilities need to exist in modern games.

Navv

I would love for even the action based combat for archer to be "Tab target" Something like you lock on the target such as some skills do in TERA.
At this time stamp 2:18 https://youtu.be/Jcg4o8IVwlw?t=138 the person in the video is using a skill called "Arrow Voley" that locks on to the target. Sorry for not any better example but I'd love something like this.
Once you are locked on the target auto attacks allways hit both in tab target and action mode, this would allow for free movment as well + free aim usage of abilities while keeping target selected. unless target runs out of range or breaks line of sight.

palabana

In Apocalypse, there were two kinds of bows. One projectile and one hitscan. This only account for their basic attacks which OP is talking about.

The MMO can have both of these too. With a twist. One is soft-locked, meaning it still requires a little bit of aiming and the arrow travel will be automatic. The accuracy depends on the player stats (INT). The other one is completely free aim and is projectile. This will be significantly harder to use thus it will have higher base damage. High enough to justify the difficulty.

I'm not saying they'll bring back those two bows from Apocalypse but if they do, I don't see any reason to not test them out.

Dralay

Honestly, I think having ranged combat be tabbed just makes that class have no skill involved. I mean I think some single target tabbed abilities are fine but if you have 100% accuracy on all autos they are going to have to greatly reduce auto damage for archers. Honestly to me the best solution here is to have a soft lock or aim assist-like system where at the very least you have to aim near them and then it will lock your autos.

Dygz

It's not 100% accuracy due to character stats and RNG - especially for Tab Target.

Mag7spy

When people say 100% accuracy they only mean that there is 0 effort involved and you just hold a button and every singe arrow hits. They are not talking about added rng of a dodge proc happening in stats.

ItsmeToki

I understand your opinions on that dmg output takes more effort if you are using an action based combatsystem than it would take with a tab targeting system. So aimed attacks with action combat should be rewarded with higher dmg per hit.

If you guys have played wow on rank one gladiator lvl tho, you woulnd argue that there is a lot of skill involved in a tab target oriented combat system. The skill is more about counter reaction. Its like a game of speed chess. So please reconsider in your answers, if in AoC the abilitykits are as complex as in a game like wow and furthermore you have to aim every single basic attack, combat can get quit challenging and would build a hugh gab in playerskills.

Solvryn

ItsmeToki wrote: »

I understand your opinions on that dmg output takes more effort if you are using an action based combatsystem than it would take with a tab targeting system. So aimed attacks with action combat should be rewarded with higher dmg per hit.

If you guys have played wow on rank one gladiator lvl tho, you woulnd argue that there is a lot of skill involved in a tab target oriented combat system. The skill is more about counter reaction. Its like a game of speed chess. So please reconsider in your answers, if in AoC the abilitykits are as complex as in a game like wow and furthermore you have to aim every single basic attack, combat can get quit challenging and would build a hugh gab in playerskills.

I played WoW, it involves data intelligence. But it doesn’t have the additional layer needed to play action combat well.

Dygz

Mag7spy wrote: »

When people say 100% accuracy they only mean that there is 0 effort involved and you just hold a button and every singe arrow hits. They are not talking about added rng of a dodge proc happening in stats.

Which is pointless because it doesn't really matter that it appears to be a hit if the stats and RNG count it as a miss. A miss is not 100% accuracy.

Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

When people say 100% accuracy they only mean that there is 0 effort involved and you just hold a button and every singe arrow hits. They are not talking about added rng of a dodge proc happening in stats.

Which is pointless because it doesn't really matter that it appears to be a hit if the stats and RNG count it as a miss. A miss is not 100% accuracy.

No one is talking about math evasion stats, if you click a tab skill on a person you don't need to aim it will be used on them 100%. In a action based you need to aim therefore you have a chance to miss your aim.

If we go to programming on a simply level (im not a programmer but have a basic understanding on it). Tab target uses an ability on a target as long as there is no line of site it will 100% be effected on that target.

For the game to consider evading dmg on a character it needs to connect with the target else you would never see the evasion stat.

If you really believe its the same not much else I can say.

Dygz

In both Tab Target and Action Combat there is a chance to miss your target.
With Tab Target, there will be more RNG and stat calculation to determine whether it's a hit or miss and resolve any damage or FX.
With Action Combat it will be based much more on player skills.

I didn't say anything about them being "the same".

falcorpix

ranged action combat but with a bit of aim assistance

Enigmatic Sage

falcorpix wrote: »

ranged action combat but with a bit of aim assistance

for action combat? I hope not, tab targeting feature with the auto-aim tracking is already enough especially when you consider an archer classes arrow tracking lol. Just looks silly.

a bit of a tangent but it's a shame that in games like COD, BF and Destiny 2 that they coded in aim assist. In Destiny 2, it's what caused many gamers to not want to play it. Different guns have different range allowances for how the aim assist works before you get into attachments.

Anyways, as mentioned, the more true aim assist has a good chance of being the tab target lock on feature where as with AC potentially more liberal with the hit box interaction.

Voidwalkers

I'd prefer mostly tab targeting for ranged, mixed in with a few skillshots that requires directional aiming (not crosshair). Basically just as the devs have said, a choice (by the player) somewhere between 75% tab 25% action ~ 25% tab 75% action.

This is an RPG after all, not an FPS. And if ranged combat requires the skills & effort of manual crosshair aiming, then I'd argue it should also come with the perks of crosshair aiming so the whole hassle feels rewarding instead of just being a source of stress:

- All targets (mobs, bosses, players) should have weak points that can be aimed at for extra high damage, and armored / shielded spots that reduce incoming ranged damage. So I can boast my awesome aiming skills (when I finally have it) that I can headshot everything!
- Sniper crossbows with scopes / super long range sniping spells should be a thing, so I can put my hardly earned aiming skills (as demanded by all the "learn to play / practice & improve your skills" folks out there) to good use.

... Sounds broken? I'd think so too. This is going to set the bar too high for many RPG players (not everyone loves and actively plays FPS), and it's gonna cause a ton of balancing issues, and likely also put a heavier load on the servers.

So, please just let the tab targeting stick around, and let action-aimed skills remain as OPTIONs.

falcorpix

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

falcorpix wrote: »

ranged action combat but with a bit of aim assistance

for action combat? I hope not, tab targeting feature with the auto-aim tracking is already enough especially when you consider an archer classes arrow tracking lol. Just looks silly.

If tab target is really gonna be in the game than the action target part of the game needs aim assistance, otherwise is like playing FPS against aimbotters