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Comments
Dodging and weaving can refer only to being able to move while casting or swinging, which is what we were shown. It does not imply any animation canceling is possible. I say this just to offer the other perspective. As MOBA/Fighting Game player, I have no reason to interpret those terms to mean 'using evasion abilities' far less animation cancels.
I don't care either way, but at the moment we can't claim it is contradictory.
Title as dodging and weaving as well, kept it together since someone mentioned it in another threat. And you are still technically cancelling a animation, the point is if you don't do systems properly you can get damage off if what people are worried about.
Bad ability design does not mean you should use another bad form of gameplay to remedy it. Ability animation locks should only be reserved for particularly powerful abilities, and in their own way they are a channel. As stated by another in this thread, ability canceling is stopping animations to gain lost time by utilizing the affect of an ability but shortening it by canceling the animation. That being said, some abilities will make complete sense to be able to roll out of/dodge while in the middle of an action, others should have more of a commitment so people are wary of using them at the wrong moment even though they may be a powerful option, risk vs reward. Animation locking is neither good nor bad, it simply needs to be utilized properly. True animation canceling in its own right is exploiting the combats design. The dodge/roll mid-action you want is entirely plausible, but there should be exceptions based on ability designs, and a focus on making sure the abilities dodged out of performing don't have the intended effect once canceled. And to maintain fluidity I would maybe require a sort of manual cancel of an ability prior to the roll. that way you aren't seeing people doing a blurred whirlwind one second and then instantly they fly off the screen in a roll lmao.
If you are manually cancelling a skill before a roll that is when you get janky broken animation cancelling and clunky gameplay. You are purposely making it more confusing then it needs to be when it should be simple. If you roll it cancels your animation if you haven't hit it stops and you can evade an attack.
Risk vrs reward is not taken away because you can dodge roll in a animation or parry if they added that with a skill. If you can only roll for a i frame every 7 seconds or so then its on CD. Its not making you dodge anymore then you already are.
Nothing wrong rolling out of WW that holds you in place and using your dodge putting it on cd.
How does a game look bad because you can roll and stop in your skill or parry that makes no sense to me. Explain what looks bad exactly, felt like this is being made up or misunderstood.
When I'm talking about high and low I'm talking about the feel and flow of combat. There should be high points where you have your movement and lower points where you have reduced movement. Its helps to balance and great a good feel and flow of combat. Ie you shouldn't be able to spam a dodge every 2 seconds that is a iframe else you would just be locked in a more high aspect moment of speed. The same way it shouldn't be a iframe dodge every 30 seconds. You balance out high points of mobility so they feel impactful but you have to be careful not to have that happening every second else it becomes a mess.
I don't believe in locking down without being able to use your dodge, there should always be an escape option. Because people would just be like ok play careful and wait for him to use this skill and then teleport and blow him up the best you can. You need to be able to allow people to react and cancel animations. Imagine you used a tab skill and you had to stand still, it feel clunky. That is not saying all action combat active abilities will hold you still but we have seen two that does and you should be able to roll out of it. The spin one at any more before uppercut, and the hammer one at any point before the hammer does dmg.
There is no reason again to say you can't use dodge to get out of a animation. If you are trying to look at it as good then i can deal damage to them and take advantage of it that is the wrong mind set as you will have access tot these skills as well. If you are like I'm tab target so i won't have to worry and I'm fine, then you are trying to have action combat be clunky because you don't want it in the game. During testing depending on how we see more of these skills and when people see and start to play if there is a lot of animation lock without really good movement people will comment on it. And I'm confident it will be looked at like we need to give people some way so they don't feel stuck using these animations and unable to react for ones that hold you in place.
If what I am proposing is clunky, yours would be an extremely floaty proposal. My manual cancel suggestion would just make it look better, sure its not the fastest possible gameplay, but that doesn't mean it will be clunky, its meant to be a fluid transition instead of something instantaneous. It looks better than every person on the screen flailing and rolling around mid-attack and just not looking in any way organic. Go outside and swing a sledgehammer like you're trying to cause some real damage and then try to either stop it mid swing or roll away mid swing. I am thinking you're going to hurt yourself or at the very least, you'll have to over correct in an inefficient way.
As far as keeping the gameplay fun while remaining fluid, this is honestly where making basic attacks tab targeting helps a lot. Leaving the big action abilities to being able to be canceled or not, purely based on how each ability works. Not all should be locked in, but not all should be able to be instantly rolled out of on a whim. Your choice to use the ability knowing there is a lock on the animation is a calculation and can even be argued as a skill cap when knowing how and when to use that ability or go against it. And if an ability is designed in a way that would require someone to over-exert themselves or go off-balance to attain more power, that should sacrifice ones mobility.
We can't start using real world examples that isn't what decides if something is floaty or not. You aren't rolling with a giant sword either so it doesn't really change anything on what is floaty. If you are mid swing and in the air no you shouldn't be able to dodge by that point int he animation. I think you are misunderstanding what makes something floaty, as long as they have good animation / transition and make sure it feels fluid it would be fine.
Agreed, but theres nothing fluid about dodging mid-attack no matter how much your argue it. Dodging after it is finished? Yea you can make that fluid.
But proposing this....its not great
Why not dodge mid attack? The attack animation should be cancelled as well as the damage output. Otherwise you dont dodge. You get hit in the face.
In the case of your image the static lightning should NOT be there. The dodge is fine.
Because it looks stupid. Now if you make the transition from the attack to the cancel to the dodge fluid, that'd be fine. But just having it be instantaneous breaks the fluidity.
One more transition would be nice. A quick one. But they wont spend the time and money for it 100%.
It's an mmo combat, not a singleplayer game. So it should be acceptable not to be the best looking.
The other thing about eso is that, besides the cost increase, you can spam dodge and block as often as you want, making the combat look stupid.
But dodge and block needed be as accessible in AoC. But they must cancel the attack animation and output quickly and reliably, otherwise they are no use.
That way the combat will still look good, unlike esos.
I'll agree to all of that. I only hope that they are able to add that small extra transition, even if it is quick. Otherwise it just looks like teleporting in place you know? And if the dodges are limited it will definitely help.
That being said yes you can add more transitions between skill use and dodge and make the dodge a bit slower during parts of animation.
Also i feel like i keep repeating myself again you shouldn't be able to dodge out of every skill and at any point in a skill. Example hammer skill you need to dodge at points before the hammer hits the ground, artist can take care of other issues with making it fade or not seeing effects.
We are talking about design here, if you have a issue with art that should be brought up at that point, it shouldn't be a reason to not include designs that bring more to the combat. Art including effects and animations.
Goddamn mages reached so high wisdom they wouldn't even needed to cast the spell and manifested it through their willpower.
Aren't we all sinners?
A keybind for canceling attacks to prevent yourself from hitting counters or blocks is good.
Exactly what I'm saying.
This is pretty much what I understand it to be as well.
I would hope that nobody would want the "broken" system. It's essentially abusing a bug in the combat.
Cancelling an animation, which is usually associated with cast timers. Is a must dare I say 'must'
If I cast a 2 second cast. Let's say fireball. And during the cast something happens, or the target is tagged by another player, whatever reason. I can just move, and cancel the cast (and animation) dealing no damage. This is my favourite.
Instant cast spells should have very short animations, as long as the global cooldown or shorter.
There are games that have no such cancelling. Ragnarok Online for example. If I am a Wizard and cast a long spell. I can only cancel it by getting damage or using what's known as a fly wing (an item that teleports you to a random cell on the map) There is a class that has a specific skill that allows them to move whilst casting, and a spell that allows them to cancel at any time (without taking damage)
Then there are games which allow you to cancel the animation, but still cast the spell, which results in more damage, a lot more in many cases. Which is based on timing. And becomes increasingly more difficult the further away from the server you are. A mechanic that's not intended. I hate this one in particular.
Why are people always intentionally trying to miss interpret quotes... its like saying, i do my research, but only give credibility to what agrees with me.
"Animation canceling will not be a combat mechanic" it is stated clear as day.
"Evasion moves such as dodging and weaving will be present" - there is an action dodge.... there may be stances which raise evasion... blah blah blah.
But "dodging and weaving" does not mean animation canceling.... as can be seen directly with the quote above... that there will be no animation canceling....
The weaving in the quote, is not the skill weaving in the title of the thread
I'm curious, what MMO have any of you played that didn't have cancelling?
It's literally been in every mmo I've ever played.
The game where it was least impactful was probably FFXIV, but even then you could start moving before the endlag of casts was completed. And frankly, that game essentially has 0 pvp, so its w/e.
Giving players the ability to reduce endlag by weaving into their next ability or movement skill simply promotes more freedom of skill expression and unique interactions. Forcing every single animation to ride out the entirety of its endlag is a massive slog, it essentially makes it fast turn based combat.
Obviously bad examples of this are block cancelling from ESO, it was obviously a silly mechanic that was far too strong, but imo basic weaving is essential to having exciting combat in 2022. It's been staple in mmos for near decades.
I think this is more definition drift....
Of course animations should end smoothly, and blend into your next action.
And some skills can even be cancleable. As part of the skills.
The refered to "animation canceling" that will not be in ashes is, the easiest reference i can think of is susano from smite. Where his dps without cancling animation vs with animation canceling changes by like 1.3 to 1.4 times...
Ie Can only animation cancel at a certain time before hammer fully swinging, ie only being able to animation cancel in spin.
*if you can put something that lets you knock back or up a target from upper cut on spin some moves should flow well into it so you can do a combo. If they have things like that Aoc will have very high tier combat.
With this concept of wanting combos you dont need animation canceling. You need low end lag on your combo starter, quick startup lag on your follow up attacks.
This i wouldnt mind, being able to cancel a skill at certain times all dependent on the skill itself. However, i would want this to still put that skill on cooldown
Skill should still be on cooldown as you used it, you are simply trying to hard cancel it to avoid something or you deem its going to miss and want to follow up with something else.