Animation canceling, Dodging, weaving

Krald

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Treefrog wrote: »

It's really bizarre reading some of these replies.
I'm curious, what MMO have any of you played that didn't have cancelling?
It's literally been in every mmo I've ever played.
The game where it was least impactful was probably FFXIV, but even then you could start moving before the endlag of casts was completed. And frankly, that game essentially has 0 pvp, so its w/e.

Giving players the ability to reduce endlag by weaving into their next ability or movement skill simply promotes more freedom of skill expression and unique interactions. Forcing every single animation to ride out the entirety of its endlag is a massive slog, it essentially makes it fast turn based combat.

Obviously bad examples of this are block cancelling from ESO, it was obviously a silly mechanic that was far too strong, but imo basic weaving is essential to having exciting combat in 2022. It's been staaple in mmos for near decades.

I think this is more definition drift....

Of course animations should end smoothly, and blend into your next action.

And some skills can even be cancleable. As part of the skills.


The refered to "animation canceling" that will not be in ashes is, the easiest reference i can think of is susano from smite. Where his dps without cancling animation vs with animation canceling changes by like 1.3 to 1.4 times...

Maybe that's why I'm confused, because the concept of using your next ability to reduce the endlag of your previously casted ability is as classic as games themselves.

I think people are taking a very general term but only thinking of specific interactions.

ItsmeToki

If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded by getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call spamming one button which is available at all times a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so.
Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced at all times and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns and abilitites.

Dodge rolls without iframes on the other hand I like to see. If you are able to either close the gap between you and your enemie using it to get some distance between counterparties or just to quickly changing your position on the battlefield by doing a roll or a dive is a fun thing imo.

If you just meant dodging fore canceling your animations ignore my comment

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe for healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded with getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call pressing one buttom a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so.
Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns on abilitites.

Ah and one more thing. Defensive cooldowns allways should have a decent higher cooldowntimer than burst abilitites. Especially if classes have more than one defensive cd or are able to use those on other allied players. Otherways fights will last a dacade long.

Iframe dodges don't lead to new world lol. Only thing i agree is they shouldn't have a 2-4 second cool down.5 would be fine to me. Also the latter sounds you are complaining that people out skilled you by dodging your attack. If your plan is to bust someone while they are not cc'd and that is all you have, you shouldn't be winning a fight. A fight isn't trying to blow someone up in one second, only reason to do that is to prevent a fight.

Iframe dodges belong in all forms of games as along as they are balanced. Idea of bust window at all points is lack luster and boring. Its not skill you are simply throwing all your cooldowns so you don't have to worry about how the others respond in combat.

Iframes are action game oriented and not in shooters, stop trying to compare shooting games to mmorpgs it isn't making your argument stronger you are just random nonsense to try to make people worried.

SirChancelot

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded by getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call spamming one button which is available at all times a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so.
Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced at all times and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns and abilitites.

Dodge rolls without iframes on the other hand I like to see. If you are able to either close the gap between you and your enemie using it to get some distance between counterparties or just to quickly changing your position on the battlefield by doing a roll or a dive is a fun thing imo.

What if Dodges could only be used to get out of AOE effects or range they didn't just ignore all damage the way it didn't new world. So even if your Dodge rolling you can still be hit... Because that's realistic.

ItsmeToki

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe for healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded with getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call pressing one buttom a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so.
Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns on abilitites.

Ah and one more thing. Defensive cooldowns allways should have a decent higher cooldowntimer than burst abilitites. Especially if classes have more than one defensive cd or are able to use those on other allied players. Otherways fights will last a dacade long.

Iframe dodges don't lead to new world lol. Only thing i agree is they shouldn't have a 2-4 second cool down.5 would be fine to me. Also the latter sounds you are complaining that people out skilled you by dodging your attack. If your plan is to bust someone while they are not cc'd and that is all you have, you shouldn't be winning a fight. A fight isn't trying to blow someone up in one second, only reason to do that is to prevent a fight.

Iframe dodges belong in all forms of games as along as they are balanced. Idea of bust window at all points is lack luster and boring. Its not skill you are simply throwing all your cooldowns so you don't have to worry about how the others respond in combat.

Iframes are action game oriented and not in shooters, stop trying to compare shooting games to mmorpgs it isn't making your argument stronger you are just random nonsense to try to make people worried.

Didnt say you should burst someone without having cc available. But if a person predicts a incoming cc by pressing a all time available immunityframe cc will no longer matter and the situation would be as i described it. If you can spam the iframeroll every few seconds you moreover dont even need to be good in predicting things.

ItsmeToki

SirChancelot wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded by getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call spamming one button which is available at all times a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so.
Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced at all times and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns and abilitites.

Dodge rolls without iframes on the other hand I like to see. If you are able to either close the gap between you and your enemie using it to get some distance between counterparties or just to quickly changing your position on the battlefield by doing a roll or a dive is a fun thing imo.

What if Dodges could only be used to get out of AOE effects or range they didn't just ignore all damage the way it didn't new world. So even if your Dodge rolling you can still be hit... Because that's realistic.

yeah, i like this approach

PenguinPaladin

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe for healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded with getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call pressing one buttom a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so.
Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns on abilitites.

Ah and one more thing. Defensive cooldowns allways should have a decent higher cooldowntimer than burst abilitites. Especially if classes have more than one defensive cd or are able to use those on other allied players. Otherways fights will last a dacade long.

Iframe dodges don't lead to new world lol. Only thing i agree is they shouldn't have a 2-4 second cool down.5 would be fine to me. Also the latter sounds you are complaining that people out skilled you by dodging your attack. If your plan is to bust someone while they are not cc'd and that is all you have, you shouldn't be winning a fight. A fight isn't trying to blow someone up in one second, only reason to do that is to prevent a fight.

Iframe dodges belong in all forms of games as along as they are balanced. Idea of bust window at all points is lack luster and boring. Its not skill you are simply throwing all your cooldowns so you don't have to worry about how the others respond in combat.

Iframes are action game oriented and not in shooters, stop trying to compare shooting games to mmorpgs it isn't making your argument stronger you are just random nonsense to try to make people worried.

Didnt say you should burst someone without having cc available. But if a person predicts a incoming cc by pressing a all time available immunityframe cc will no longer matter and the situation would be as i described it. If you can spam the iframeroll every few seconds you moreover dont even need to be good in predicting things.

This is a flawed argument.... if the ability to doge is always available. You should fight knowing the opponent can dodge. Not just blindly swinging and being like "wtf he dodge?! Bullshit"

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe for healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded with getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call pressing one buttom a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so.
Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns on abilitites.

Ah and one more thing. Defensive cooldowns allways should have a decent higher cooldowntimer than burst abilitites. Especially if classes have more than one defensive cd or are able to use those on other allied players. Otherways fights will last a dacade long.

Iframe dodges don't lead to new world lol. Only thing i agree is they shouldn't have a 2-4 second cool down.5 would be fine to me. Also the latter sounds you are complaining that people out skilled you by dodging your attack. If your plan is to bust someone while they are not cc'd and that is all you have, you shouldn't be winning a fight. A fight isn't trying to blow someone up in one second, only reason to do that is to prevent a fight.

Iframe dodges belong in all forms of games as along as they are balanced. Idea of bust window at all points is lack luster and boring. Its not skill you are simply throwing all your cooldowns so you don't have to worry about how the others respond in combat.

Iframes are action game oriented and not in shooters, stop trying to compare shooting games to mmorpgs it isn't making your argument stronger you are just random nonsense to try to make people worried.

Didnt say you should burst someone without having cc available. But if a person predicts a incoming cc by pressing a all time available immunityframe cc will no longer matter and the situation would be as i described it. If you can spam the iframeroll every few seconds you moreover dont even need to be good in predicting things.

You cant dodge all the time, and if you are that predictable that is on you not them for being a better player. Im unsure why you bring up new world, you can't even dodge all the time int hat game you just get smacked. Only game you can bring up is BDO.

ItsmeToki

Mag7spy wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe for healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded with getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call pressing one buttom a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so.
Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns on abilitites.

Ah and one more thing. Defensive cooldowns allways should have a decent higher cooldowntimer than burst abilitites. Especially if classes have more than one defensive cd or are able to use those on other allied players. Otherways fights will last a dacade long.

Iframe dodges don't lead to new world lol. Only thing i agree is they shouldn't have a 2-4 second cool down.5 would be fine to me. Also the latter sounds you are complaining that people out skilled you by dodging your attack. If your plan is to bust someone while they are not cc'd and that is all you have, you shouldn't be winning a fight. A fight isn't trying to blow someone up in one second, only reason to do that is to prevent a fight.

Iframe dodges belong in all forms of games as along as they are balanced. Idea of bust window at all points is lack luster and boring. Its not skill you are simply throwing all your cooldowns so you don't have to worry about how the others respond in combat.

Iframes are action game oriented and not in shooters, stop trying to compare shooting games to mmorpgs it isn't making your argument stronger you are just random nonsense to try to make people worried.

And dont try to twist my words. You make me worried with all your cross aim, dodge roll and animation canceling talk. You said you never played games like wow in a different post so imo your opinions on good gameplay mechanics dont consider the usage of a lot of abilities or a variety of different abilitytypes...

PenguinPaladin

Lets go back to your, i waited for my opening, slowly baiting out their resources and here is my opportunity to push in... then having an action dodge, is just them having one last effort to attempt to foil your push. It makes "making the moment count" more rewarding, on success or more punishing on failure. Its just another step to combat. Not something that makes the combat itself futile

ItsmeToki

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Lets go back to your, i waited for my opening, slowly baiting out their resources and here is my opportunity to push in... then having an action dodge, is just them having one last effort to attempt to foil your push. It makes "making the moment count" more rewarding, on success or more punishing on failure. Its just another step to combat. Not something that makes the combat itself futile

One last attempt to foil a push every few seconds. Yep sounds great and balanced to me.

PenguinPaladin

ItsmeToki wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Lets go back to your, i waited for my opening, slowly baiting out their resources and here is my opportunity to push in... then having an action dodge, is just them having one last effort to attempt to foil your push. It makes "making the moment count" more rewarding, on success or more punishing on failure. Its just another step to combat. Not something that makes the combat itself futile

One last attempt to foil a push every few seconds. Yep sounds great and balanced.

Also know as down but not out..... always having a chance at fighting back is exciting. I really dont think someone able to do nothing but dodge is such a threat that i would lose an engagement.

ItsmeToki

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Lets go back to your, i waited for my opening, slowly baiting out their resources and here is my opportunity to push in... then having an action dodge, is just them having one last effort to attempt to foil your push. It makes "making the moment count" more rewarding, on success or more punishing on failure. Its just another step to combat. Not something that makes the combat itself futile

One last attempt to foil a push every few seconds. Yep sounds great and balanced.

Also know as down but not out..... always having a chance at fighting back is exciting. I really dont think someone able to do nothing but dodge is such a threat that i would lose an engagement.

At some point you must be out of options. At least for some period of time. At least if you like the checkmate system approach on combat.

PenguinPaladin

ItsmeToki wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

ItsmeToki wrote: »

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

Lets go back to your, i waited for my opening, slowly baiting out their resources and here is my opportunity to push in... then having an action dodge, is just them having one last effort to attempt to foil your push. It makes "making the moment count" more rewarding, on success or more punishing on failure. Its just another step to combat. Not something that makes the combat itself futile

One last attempt to foil a push every few seconds. Yep sounds great and balanced.

Also know as down but not out..... always having a chance at fighting back is exciting. I really dont think someone able to do nothing but dodge is such a threat that i would lose an engagement.

At some point you must be out of options. At least fore some period. At least if you like the checkmate system approach on combat.

And that would be every few seconds after you dodge......... oh wait no, you can still walk in several directions or base attack then... that would be when you are hit with a hard CC....

ItsmeToki

So why exactly do you want to have iframe dodge rolls than? Why do you want to posses the power of total damage immunity at all times with unrealistic iframe rolls? Do you even want hard ccs to get through this immunity frame or do you want iframes to ignore every cc there is in game? what for would you need cc than in the first place?

Mag7spy

There isn't going to be iframe dodge every 2 seconds, why is part of the argument making things up not in the game or not well known about.

Mag7spy

Dodges will be balanced based off the cool down of skills its simple as that.

Dygz

*meh*
Just allow everyone to super-jump with no cool-downs.
That was fun in APOC.

ItsmeToki

Yeah super-jumps and super dodge-rolls I like it! And why dont we give everybody insane permanent invisibility as well.

CROW3

ItsmeToki wrote: »

Yeah super-jumps and super dodge-rolls I like it! And why dont we give everybody insane permanent invisibility as well.

Well, it would make combat both unique and challenging. 🫤

falcorpix

Dodge doesnt need cooldowns, it just needs stamina... You get 2 dodges with full stamina bar, that way people have to be smart about their dodge usage.

PenguinPaladin

falcorpix wrote: »

Dodge doesnt need cooldowns, it just needs stamina... You get 2 dodges with full stamina bar, that way people have to be smart about their dodge usage.

2 whole dodges?! Without a cooldown?!?!

@ItsmeToki may as well give up on hitting you now...

Mag7spy

PenguinPaladin wrote: »

falcorpix wrote: »

Dodge doesnt need cooldowns, it just needs stamina... You get 2 dodges with full stamina bar, that way people have to be smart about their dodge usage.

2 whole dodges?! Without a cooldown?!?!

@ItsmeToki may as well give up on hitting you now...

Isnt that god mode?

Dygz

falcorpix wrote: »

Dodge doesnt need cooldowns, it just needs stamina... You get 2 dodges with full stamina bar, that way people have to be smart about their dodge usage.

Stamina is effectively a type of cooldown.
The differences are basically just a nitpick for this discussion.

SirChancelot

falcorpix wrote: »

Dodge doesnt need cooldowns, it just needs stamina... You get 2 dodges with full stamina bar, that way people have to be smart about their dodge usage.

Sounds like someone is missing Apoc

falcorpix

Dygz wrote: »

Stamina is effectively a type of cooldown.
The differences are basically just a nitpick for this discussion.

yes, a more dynamic/less predictable type of cooldown.

ItsmeToki

2 dodge rolls, 100 stamina bar? Sounds like New World to me. Good job boys voting for a system the majority of ppl rejected in another game

Mag7spy

ItsmeToki wrote: »

2 dodge rolls, 100 stamina bar? Sounds like New World to me. Good job boys trying to implement a system the majority of ppl rejected in other games

When people try to say things will fail like new world without understanding why new world failed because a lack of combat depth, stats, and mainly content.

Dygz

*meh*
Combat depth and stats were fine.
But, New World should not be used as and inspiration for Ashes gameplay, just as BDO should not be used as an inspiration for Ashes gameplay. Nor should Overwatch or Fortnite.

ItsmeToki

Mainly cause the combat feels clunky and bad desinged as well as server issues which supported the bad game experience with the combat style overall, yes