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Animation canceling, Dodging, weaving

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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Quote or it didn't happen.
    :D

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    Zyvan wrote: »
    Funny you should say that considering BDO was one of the MMOs Steven claimed to be pulling inspiration from around the time Alpha 1 was running.

    If I recall correctly, the 3 games mentioned were Archeage for skill synergies and the way they worked with each other, GW2 for mobility, and BDO for its hit effects and visceral feeling of landing abilities on enemies.

    I will have to ask for a quote for both BDO and GW2 :D
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Inspiration
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Some quotes are not in the wiki - but it will be great if someone can find that.

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    ZyvanZyvan Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    Since it was said by Steven in voice chat, it's not something I can find a quote for as easily. But if you're willing to search in Discord with the keywords "gw2 mobility," you'll find a few references from others about Steven mentioning all 3 games. Not a direct quote, but something to show that I'm not pulling it straight out of my ass.

    @l3v3rag3 should be able to corroborate that.
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    SirChancelotSirChancelot Member
    edited July 2022
    falcorpix wrote: »
    to be fair, BDO's combat is great for what the game is, I dont think it is great for high-end pve content, at least not the type of content we are used to.
    However I think the "foundation" of the combat is great, its visceral, its smooth and satisfying, if it had way less AoE spam and more utlility, it would be pretty good.

    It's great... If it changes all those things?
    I never got into BDO so I don't really know
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Zyvan wrote: »
    Since it was said by Steven in voice chat, it's not something I can find a quote for as easily. But if you're willing to search in Discord with the keywords "gw2 mobility," you'll find a few references from others about Steven mentioning all 3 games. Not a direct quote, but something to show that I'm not pulling it straight out of my ass.

    @l3v3rag3 should be able to corroborate that.
    Haha
    Mmmnn hmmmn.

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    falcorpix wrote: »
    to be fair, BDO's combat is great for what the game is, I dont think it is great for high-end pve content, at least not the type of content we are used to.
    However I think the "foundation" of the combat is great, its visceral, its smooth and satisfying, if it had way less AoE spam and more utlility, it would be pretty good.

    It's great... If it changes all those things?
    I never got into BDO so I don't really know

    People are missing what is being talked about and purposely. Its like you have a whole cake and the icing is amazing but the sponge part is very dry and not good. Rather then listening to what people are saying they just say its all bad looking at the cake as a whole rather then the part people are talking about.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    We listen, understand... and dsiagree with you.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    falcorpix wrote: »
    to be fair, BDO's combat is great for what the game is, I dont think it is great for high-end pve content, at least not the type of content we are used to.
    However I think the "foundation" of the combat is great, its visceral, its smooth and satisfying, if it had way less AoE spam and more utlility, it would be pretty good.

    It's great... If it changes all those things?
    I never got into BDO so I don't really know

    If it matters to you, it isn't really about that exactly, though it does give that feeling if you play certain classes. BDO is a difficult thing to understand if you haven't approached it in a certain way.

    So whereas Dygz might see them as very different, I, who have played BDO for a while, see BDO and Ashes combat as potentially being very similar. I'm really excited to see what Intrepid does with it as a result. I hope that Dygz also feels the same once it's done.

    But if that happens, it'll probably be because 'Ashes will do the same thing as BDO but in a form Dygz can understand', rather than 'Ashes does something different than BDO does'.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    Most likely, Ashes combat is going to be significantly different than BDO combat.
    So... it will be because Ashes combat is different and is designed as an RPG, rather than a Hack & Slash.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    Most likely, Ashes combat is going to be significantly different than BDO combat.
    So... it will be because Ashes combat is different and is designed as an RPG, rather than a Hack & Slash.

    This would be true if BDO was just a Hack and Slash game, yes.

    Or if there were no 'Hack and Slash' characters in RPGs that might play like BDO characters.

    Or if every BDO character was 'flashy and overdone' and not just some.

    Or if BDO's few PvE content didn't feel exactly like what Ashes felt like and hadn't moved more toward what BDO feels like rather than away from it.

    Or if Ashes didn't have the same tricks as BDO for melee combat baked into the system since Alpha-1 and apparently doubled down on in the new Combat Update.

    I really hope you don't end up disappointed... but I at least trust that you will test it properly once we have it and not just 'look at it and decide you don't like it because it looks similar'.

    Brains do a good job of keeping up their confirmation biases though, so I'm sure you'll be fine.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    Dygz wrote: »
    We listen, understand... and dsiagree with you.

    If you understand please show me exactly what I am talking about with gameplay.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I don't even need to read what you posted to know that it's probably not going to advance this conversation...

    Do I need to make a whole BDO Combat Primer post explaining the combat just so we don't keep going back and forth about this? Cause you know me, I'm both arrogant and experienced enough to do so, if it will prevent all this 'discussion'.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    BDO lost me when I heard P2W and PvP for the same game
    Should I try it for it's combat?
    From the videos I've seen it looks so jumpy and flashy with over the top effects... I looked like it would just get tiresome to look at after a while.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    BDO lost me when I heard P2W and PvP for the same game
    Should I try it for it's combat?
    From the videos I've seen it looks so jumpy and flashy with over the top effects... I looked like it would just get tiresome to look at after a while.

    I can't say whether or not you should try it. There is no need to, really, since Ashes is proceeding as it is.

    It's quite tiresome to look at, yes.

    The only reason I would advise picking up BDO at all ever is if you wanted to increase your understanding of certain things in game design. I cannot recommend the game to anyone whose purpose is to actually enjoy a game.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    BDO lost me when I heard P2W and PvP for the same game
    Should I try it for it's combat?
    From the videos I've seen it looks so jumpy and flashy with over the top effects... I looked like it would just get tiresome to look at after a while.

    You can make a trial character and duel people but I wouldn't say its worth playing just for that. You also would have to put in a decent amount of time to understand the combat system, but then you would understand what we are talking about with BDO combat.

    Its not that flashy as you turn down the effects and they aren't nearly as noticeable (people don't really play in remastered). Flashy and jumpy isn't what we are talking about with the flow and feel of combat though. Its about when you use a move and how thing can flow together like they are the same action. If you look at other mmos I think tera might have had something similar where you use a move then it gives you access to use another move and they go together well. Where as BDO there is a mix of set skills that you can use but also options for other skills that mix well together over being forced to use the same one. Which allows you to use more skills and play a bit more organically then something that is as cookie cutter or doesn't have flow between attacks.
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    If you want to understand what people mean about it though you can't just pick it up and play it. It would take time to learn it through use of a trial character because of the learning curve. That is why its a bit annoying if someone says this is bad and i don't care how long you played it or that I only played it for a small amount of time, kind of view point if a bit ignorant. I just don't understand why argue saying something is bad if you didn't really play it. Saying you couldn't get into it and it felt clunky is fine if you respect the view point of another that played the game and understands it. Idk why this would be even a debate clearly someone that spent like a thousand hours on it knows more than someone with like 30 hours -shrugs-
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    GrilledCheeseMojitoGrilledCheeseMojito Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If you want to understand what people mean about it though you can't just pick it up and play it. It would take time to learn it through use of a trial character because of the learning curve. That is why its a bit annoying if someone says this is bad and i don't care how long you played it or that I only played it for a small amount of time, kind of view point if a bit ignorant. I just don't understand why argue saying something is bad if you didn't really play it. Saying you couldn't get into it and it felt clunky is fine if you respect the view point of another that played the game and understands it. Idk why this would be even a debate clearly someone that spent like a thousand hours on it knows more than someone with like 30 hours -shrugs-

    You can definitely tell whether the combat feels right or not without spending too much time on it. I don't expect that everyone can do this, but I read every skill on someone's character in BDO that seemed to fit the kind of playstyle I like, and within like 15 minutes I was able to play fairly effectively.

    People decide on whether a fighting game's combat feels right for them within a couple hours, what makes something like BDO different?
    Grilled cheese always tastes better when you eat it together!
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    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If you want to understand what people mean about it though you can't just pick it up and play it. It would take time to learn it through use of a trial character because of the learning curve. That is why its a bit annoying if someone says this is bad and i don't care how long you played it or that I only played it for a small amount of time, kind of view point if a bit ignorant. I just don't understand why argue saying something is bad if you didn't really play it. Saying you couldn't get into it and it felt clunky is fine if you respect the view point of another that played the game and understands it. Idk why this would be even a debate clearly someone that spent like a thousand hours on it knows more than someone with like 30 hours -shrugs-

    You can definitely tell whether the combat feels right or not without spending too much time on it. I don't expect that everyone can do this, but I read every skill on someone's character in BDO that seemed to fit the kind of playstyle I like, and within like 15 minutes I was able to play fairly effectively.

    People decide on whether a fighting game's combat feels right for them within a couple hours, what makes something like BDO different?


    BDO has a high learning curve and you won't get a sense of it until you have put a lot of time into the game. The mechanics are different as well as class to class and knowing how moves work and such. To be decent and for ti not to be clunky it takes more time for the average player. Also when you are starting he game not leveled without all your skills you can't even play it properly until you are a high level with your awakening.

    That being said if the learning curve wasn't as high anyone could pick it up and play with it fine but this is just a case with BDO because of its more complex combat mechanics.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I am decent with BDO combat.
    It doesn't feel clunky.
    It's great for BDO... hack & slash.
    It's not good for an MMORPG.
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    SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I wouldn't worry in this case. It doesn't take hundreds of hours to understand BDO. Getting to high level, and understanding how your class both works and feels takes only a few hours. Certainly less than a weekend. The rest of those hours are perfecting your execution, timing, and reactions. Will you be able to fight everything day 1? Not a chance. But understanding your class and general gameplay is a rather achievable goal.
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    SunScriptSunScript Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    I am decent with BDO combat.
    It doesn't feel clunky.
    It's great for BDO... hack & slash.
    It's not good for an MMORPG.

    Rae please just make that post. I'd rather see a wall of text that presents actual data with some aim at being educational than see these two arguing by passing vague misinformation between each other. It's not helping them OR other readers.
    Bow before the Emperor and your lives shall be spared. Refuse to bow and your lives shall be speared.
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    Dygz wrote: »
    I am decent with BDO combat.
    It doesn't feel clunky.
    It's great for BDO... hack & slash.
    It's not good for an MMORPG.

    Decent and being good at pvp are two vastly different things. If i played bdo and only killed mobs I wouldn't ever view myself as decent as you don't need much knowledge to tthrow some aoes around on them.

    I don't view people picking up bdo and being able to be good at it over a weekend when they have never played it before. When I'm in the battle arena I'm int here for hours and and same with some of my other guiildies testing new moves and trickers they have learned.

    This is getting kind of far from the original comment though, BDO isn't mindless hack and slash combat, again anyone who played pvp would know that. Like any mmorpg you have your skill rotations you do just in bdo you have to adapt to a lot more do to the speed of the combat. If you have only done pve you can say its mindless hack and slash and not something that pushes you to be well enough with all the mechanics of that combat.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    SunScript wrote: »
    Rae please just make that post. I'd rather see a wall of text that presents actual data with some aim at being educational than see these two arguing by passing vague misinformation between each other. It's not helping them OR other readers.
    It's not really much of an argument, though.
    It's certainly a difference of perspective.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    This is getting kind of far from the original comment though, BDO isn't mindless hack and slash combat, again anyone who played pvp would know that. Like any mmorpg you have your skill rotations you do just in bdo you have to adapt to a lot more do to the speed of the combat. If you have only done pve you can say its mindless hack and slash and not something that pushes you to be well enough with all the mechanics of that combat.
    https://portforward.com/hack-and-slash/
    In a hack-and-slash style of game you spend most of the time just killing wave after wave of creatures. They are strongly emphasize combat over anything else. Hack-and-slash style games are usually also considered action games.
    B:
    Black Desert Online



    https://www.pcgamebenchmark.com/pc-games-published-by-kakao-games-europe-b-v
    Black Desert Online:
    RPG Fantasy Character Customization Female Protagonist Violent MMORPG Hack and Slash Fishing PvE Action Massively Multiplayer Simulation Strategy PvP Sandbox Co-op Adventure Third Person Multiplayer Open World


    https://www.naeu.playblackdesert.com/en-US/Forum/ForumTopic/Detail?_topicNo=7327&_opinionNo=42352
    (BDO is by far not a Sandbox MMO neither is ESO. BDO also isn't a Themepark MMO. BDO is a hack n slash MMO with open world elements.)


    https://cheapdigitaldownload.com/15-best-hack-and-slash-games-compare-prices-e-2020/
    5: BDO


    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/BlackDesertOnline
    Black Desert Online provides examples of:
    Hack and Slash: The combat system. PvE gameplay generally consists of taking on dozens of enemies at once and obliterating them with flashy, elaborate combos. Think Dynasty Warriors with a more complex moveset.


    https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/5zbo82/thesis_bdos_pve_is_hack_n_slash_not_action/
    (General consensus seems to be that BDO is an Action oriented game (separated from tab targeting), belonging to a sub genre that can be defined to hack n' slash.)


    https://steamcommunity.com/app/582660/discussions/0/1456202492174582639/
    (What's the combat like?
    Is it action/hack n slash style combat such as in games like Devil may cry or is it click and wait combat like in WOW (I call it click and wait i have no idea what it's usually called)?
    If it's hack n slash i'll probably get this game today.)

    (I'd say it's more similar to Devil May Cry, it's very active and nothing like WoW. I hear a lot of people compare it to Mortal Kombat, but i've never played so I can't say for sure.)

    Dygz: 3D Mortal Kombat is exactly what I said before ever seeing the quote above.


    https://www.reddit.com/r/DevilMayCry/comments/jnytv3/dmc_is_the_greatest_hack_n_slash_of_all_time_what/
    (Idk about y'all, but I can't think of a single game in the hack n slash genre. That comes even close to DMC and all its glory.)


    https://www.thegamer.com/black-desert-online-mistakes-tips/
    (Hack and slash enthusiasts and fighting game fans will take comfort here. BDO isn't about committing rotations to memory or watching cooldowns tick (although those are still somewhat important), it's about combos executed in real-time.)


    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/453625/hack-and-slash-all-of-them
    (It seems hack and slash combat took front row in all mmos, no exceptions !
    I knew this, but yesterday I had a revelation of how deep easy combat has become when someone posted a combat video of Black Desert Online. I'm like holy cow !.......Is this the new standard ?.....Mowing every creature in your path is now the fun thing to do ?)



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ODveSDLSC0
    (Black Desert Online LIVE! Sorceress hack n slash run!
    Playing Black Desert Online, an MMORPG hack n slash)



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X9ePCdJOKI
    (#bdo #hacknslash #meilleur
    Black Desert Online, le meilleur hack'n'slash ? BDO the best Hack n Slash)
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    What is funny is i keep having to repeat myself, all those post talk about pve, hack and slash as in you are mindlessly killing tons of enemies. Its cleary they call it hack and slash because of the non existent pve content and how easy it is to kill mobs. And you are linking a bunch of articles from random game journalist that wouldn't even have gotten into the game to begin with more then a surface level. If you are posting game jurno reviewers as your point instead of explaining it you are being dishonest.

    I continue to tell you that is not how PvP works and its very mechanically heavy. If this is the sample you are bringing with you understand what im talking about with the game you simply don't know what im talking about, this post showing me that clearly. You continue to ignore what is actually being said because you dislike pve content when that honestly has nothing to do with the combat as it doesn't require you to have a deep understanding of it.

    Anyone can type in some keyword on the internet and have people explain things in a way they want to hear. Challenging content isn't pve if you only talk about pve with BDO you are not playing the game. Like you went out of your way to search for a few post with hardly any comments, video with no views in another language or journalist that don't even play the game really...Where are the creditable post calling it a hack and slash game at the very least.

    If you don't understand combat in relation to pvp there is nothing wrong with that but it also means you won't know the depth of the combat or understand what I'm talking about. So you shouldn't have a point saying its a hack and slash game with no rpg elements to it. I don't see customization on character build even on BDO'S level hack and slash games, or even the amount of skills you have. You don't know BDO, what even was your gear score....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjrSYuLP8X8
    https://grumpygreen.cricket/bdo-combat/
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    You can repeat yourself as many times as you wish - it's not going to convince the people who disagree with you.
    I don't care how PvP works in BDO, so you certainly aren't going to sway me by discussing PvP.
    I don't play MMORPGs for the PvP.
    I care about how the combat impacts RP and PvE.
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    Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited July 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    You can repeat yourself as many times as you wish - it's not going to convince the people who disagree with you.
    I don't care how PvP works in BDO, so you certainly aren't going to sway me by discussing PvP.
    I don't play MMORPGs for the PvP.
    I care about how the combat impacts RP and PvE.

    What you care about is fine and makes sense why you wouldn't enjoy a mmorpg where the only real content is actually the pvp as that is also how it was sold. But you can not say it is a hack and slash when you aren't doing the real content in the game which is pvp. PvE was never actual content in BDO it was just something you did for grinding, there is no difficulty in it.

    So you can't say BDO combat is trash if you didn't do the actual content in the game that uses the combat system being PvP. If you are saying PvE is trash id agree with you, and id agree it doesn't use the full of the combat system in any kind of advanced way. But if you are here to say combat is trash and won't pvp that is my issue, you only can see the actual true depth of the combat from pvp.
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2022
    Pretty sure I have never said that BDO combat is trash.
    Quite the opposite.
    You are the one who does not pay attention to what others have said - and who cannot accurately reflect back an opposing argument.
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    Dygz wrote: »
    Says you...
    That's about it.

    And, yeah, BDO is just button-mashing and face-rolling. That much is true.

    ...... If something is button mashing and face rolling that is bad.
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