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Animation canceling, Dodging, weaving

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    NiKrNiKr Member
    CROW3 wrote: »
    These two threads …

    A: “The Chili Peppers are the greatest band that ever lived or we’re not friends.”
    B: “They’re ok, but I prefer Pearl Jam.”
    A: “Oh yeah!? What about…”

    For a bazillion pages.
    I personally prefer j-rock :)
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Zyvan wrote: »
    Are you implying EQ2 required more button presses per minute than that?
    Per minute? Yes.

    Per 4 seconds? No

    My experience of BDO is that this level of activity is not sustained for a minute.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    CROW3 wrote: »
    These two threads …

    A: “The Chili Peppers are the greatest band that ever lived or we’re not friends.”
    B: “They’re ok, but I prefer Pearl Jam.”
    A: “Oh yeah!? What about…”

    For a bazillion pages.

    I mean, clearly person A is correct.
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    ZyvanZyvan Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    Noaani wrote: »
    Per minute? Yes.

    Per 4 seconds? No

    My experience of BDO is that this level of activity is not sustained for a minute.

    All I can really say to that is that we have had entirely different experiences with the game.
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    Noaani wrote: »
    Zyvan wrote: »
    Are you implying EQ2 required more button presses per minute than that?
    Per minute? Yes.

    Per 4 seconds? No

    My experience of BDO is that this level of activity is not sustained for a minute.

    Abilities cooldowns are not that long in bdo, also you have like 40 skills to use in BDO depending on your class....
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    This is why i asked you how much you played, your gear score and how often you pvped....
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Zyvan wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Per minute? Yes.

    Per 4 seconds? No

    My experience of BDO is that this level of activity is not sustained for a minute.

    All I can really say to that is that we have had entirely different experiences with the game.
    Entirely possible.

    I played it not long after release. At the time there were no mobs to farm for level capped players, so they had to farm lower level mobs, or nothing at all.

    These mobs didn't last more than a few seconds - the notion of a 16 action combo against them is laughable, as they wouldn't survive.

    The only thing more laughable than a combo like the above on the mobs in question is the statement "BDO has group content". So, there isn't any of that to have drawn out fights with.

    Then there are the games "raids". While it may well be possible that a sustained combo like was possible on these fights, the fights them self are so damn boring it isn't something to brag about. That is less actions per second than even the longer cast time classes in EQ2 on top end content, because most of the actions in that content were not in relation to the actual combat system, but were in relation to the encounter.

    Then you have PvP. My experiences of PvP in BDO was that if it was 1v1 and not over in a few seconds, one player would run.

    In mass PvP, such as it was in that game. Unless you weren't overly concerned about your target, my experience of mass PvP in BDO wouldn't be overly conductive to a sustained rate of action akin to what has been suggested.

    So, as much as anything, I am curious as to exactly what content it was you were sustaining that level of activity on for a minute or more. Each content type the game had (solo and "raid") required fewer actions than EQ2 did to participate in the same type of content.

    I mean, I can fully appreciate that what was outlined would be a combo in BDO - no doubt. It is the fact that this isn't ever sustained in that game for a prolonged period of time that is the issue.
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    I can't understand how you can have just a bias take when you haven't done high end pvp with a long enough of time to get a proper judgement or do node wars in a attempt to say EQ2 combat is faster when it really isn't and u can tell comparing both the clips.

    The most honest take would be accepting the fact that people that have played thousands of hours know more on it and it isn't worth arguing on over a pride thing. If you want to understand it install it and do some pvp, watch some pvp. Understand node wars and the OW pvp. Then make a proper judge, I can even get some people that still play to game I know to pvp you and show you it on a high level.

    Why argue when we can jump on the game right?
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    LMAO
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I can't understand how you can have just a bias take when you haven't done high end pvp with a long enough of time to get a proper judgement or do node wars in a attempt to say EQ2 combat is faster when it really isn't and u can tell comparing both the clips.
    I mean, you haven't even played EQ2, yet you are making your own assumption about it.

    By your own logic in this post, you can't make a single comment or have an opinion on EQ2 until you have killed every one of the 750+ raid encounters in that game.

    As such, you can't even disagree with someone that says EQ2 combat is faster than BDO, because you have no point of reference for EQ2 combat at the top end.

    So basically, either listen to what you are telling others and stop commenting on games you haven't even played (At least I have played BDO), or don't, and stop complaining when people talk about a game that they have less play time in than you.

    I don't care which of these two you opt to take, just take one.

    And no, I am not going to reinstall that piece of shit game. I mean, it isn't just the combat in the game that is objectively bad - it is an actual shit game and I am really sorry you think otherwise.

    The game isn't worth the 1's and 0's it takes up.
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    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    u can tell comparing both the clips.

    Out of context clips can be quite deceiving, i can show you L2 videos of a bad rogue in older versions of the game not properly buffed and with bad gear using slow skills with ~0,9 sec animation and can also show you a clip of a correctly buffed and correctly geared good rogue in newer versions of lineage 2 using fast asfk skills with ~0,2 sec animation in insanely quick succession.

    I can't speak for EQ2 tho, but the clip you used the guy clicks alot in the skills in his hotbar instead of using the hotkeys, and i don't know if EQ2 also has methods of speeding up skills to that extent like L2, we might have to ask @Noaani

    Edit: Here is a decent rogue video for context
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbMeW2xZNVM
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
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    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    I can't understand how you can have just a bias take when you haven't done high end pvp with a long enough of time to get a proper judgement or do node wars in a attempt to say EQ2 combat is faster when it really isn't and u can tell comparing both the clips.
    I mean, you haven't even played EQ2, yet you are making your own assumption about it.

    By your own logic in this post, you can't make a single comment or have an opinion on EQ2 until you have killed every one of the 750+ raid encounters in that game.

    As such, you can't even disagree with someone that says EQ2 combat is faster than BDO, because you have no point of reference for EQ2 combat at the top end.

    So basically, either listen to what you are telling others and stop commenting on games you haven't even played (At least I have played BDO), or don't, and stop complaining when people talk about a game that they have less play time in than you.

    I don't care which of these two you opt to take, just take one.

    And no, I am not going to reinstall that piece of shit game. I mean, it isn't just the combat in the game that is objectively bad - it is an actual shit game and I am really sorry you think otherwise.

    The game isn't worth the 1's and 0's it takes up.

    By my logic you can talk within reason and raiding as nothing to do with how combat systems work in game.

    1. Is there global cooldown or skill cast time on most skills.
    2. Do you not need to face your targets direction to attack
    3. Do you need to aim your skill or will it automatically hit your target

    Then it is fair to talk about that design as it isn't going to break and change in the game, else you can show how that isn't the case for those aspects. Also raiding as nothing to do with the combat system so bringing up a large number of raids doesn't really mean much. By your logic I could say those raids are all the same and say they are shit compared to modern mmorpgs but that is baseless and there is no point commenting on that aspect in arguing anything I would take your word for it for playing the game that they have mechanics.

    My point of reference is the core design of the game, you are pressing less buttons per second compared to bdo, also videos that show and prove that that you can not disprove and you are never able to offer a single shred of proof that shows other wise. I'm literally doing the work for you linking EQ2 combat vidoes else I would have no point of reference on what you are doing. I can only lean on other mmorpgs I have played and I know if you try to say they have more button pressed you are lying, tab target games are just slower in general compared to BDO.

    When it comes to BDO mechanics and talking about how they work you offer 0 evidence in videos, in knowledge, and make baseless assumptions without doing research on the combat. You do not talk about the design or points on how it can be limited to certain attacks you only make assumptions from lack of experience. In my contrast i show videos of EQ2 combat and point out the design limitations you are free to debunk that if you like, you simply say what you think without pointing to evidence which is a big difference in how we both show our points.

    You continue to show 0 desire to even fact check yourself, which you could use as proof to show your point. This again is a contrast when I brought up a point about ever quest 2 and i installed that "Shit game" that is 20 years old, feels clunky and has terrible combat. You don't need to level up a character in bdo or even spend that much time on it, but even a little will help with perspective and fighting someone that knows the pvp in the game and can help explain and show some things.

    To sum it up this is the difference between you and I. I will show evidence you will only say what you believe and will always refuse to use any form of proof. I am happy to accept and believe your experience on the 750 raids they they all feel unique and extremely challenging, but you can't consider what people say about high end pvp and its your way or no way even if you didn't even paly any elements of those games. You won't do any kind of research on the game or try it even given the opportunity to try to understand someone view point and maybe come a bit closer to the center. As much as im open to understanding and happy to hear with evidence shown and have a fair discussion you are a lot more hostile because you think it is "shit" even if you didn't play it to understand the systems and have no desire to do so as well.
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    Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    u can tell comparing both the clips.

    Out of context clips can be quite deceiving, i can show you L2 videos of a bad rogue in older versions of the game not properly buffed and with bad gear using slow skills with ~0,9 sec animation and can also show you a clip of a correctly buffed and correctly geared good rogue in newer versions of lineage 2 using fast asfk skills with ~0,2 sec animation in insanely quick succession.

    I can't speak for EQ2 tho, but the clip you used the guy clicks alot in the skills in his hotbar instead of using the hotkeys, and i don't know if EQ2 also has methods of speeding up skills to that extent like L2, we might have to ask @Noaani

    We are talking about EQ2 not L2, unless you want to speak for EQ2 in this discussion as the points are between EQ2 and BDO.
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    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    We are talking about EQ2 not L2, unless you want to speak for EQ2 in this discussion as the points are between EQ2 and BDO.

    "Out of context clips can be quite deceiving"
    i think this point is relevant for the "EQ2 vs BDO"discussion, don't you think so?
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    Aren't we all sinners?
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    Mag7spy wrote: »
    We are talking about EQ2 not L2, unless you want to speak for EQ2 in this discussion as the points are between EQ2 and BDO.

    "Out of context clips can be quite deceiving"
    i think this point is relevant for the "EQ2 vs BDO"discussion, don't you think so?

    How is a full pvp clip on EQ2 out of context?
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    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    We are talking about EQ2 not L2, unless you want to speak for EQ2 in this discussion as the points are between EQ2 and BDO.

    "Out of context clips can be quite deceiving"
    i think this point is relevant for the "EQ2 vs BDO"discussion, don't you think so?

    How is a full pvp clip on EQ2 out of context?

    Are you knowledgeable enough about the class presented, are you knowledgeable enough about the skills used, are you knowledgeable enough about the stats, buffs and gear, are you knowledgeable enough about the players skill level, are you knowledgeable enough about the game version presented?

    Depending on the answers to those question, i can instantly drop the possibility of lack of contextual knowledge about the ciip from your part.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
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    NiKrNiKr Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    How is a full pvp clip on EQ2 out of context?
    It's a clip of a dude who clicks his skills with a fucking mouse. And Noaani has said before that he never even needed to look at his bar in combat (nor did he really had the time). And I trust Noaani when he says that because I was the same. I saw multiple videos with people clicking skills in L2, when I was trying to find gameplay that would represent my lvl of skill.

    So the "context" here is that EQ2 might be way faster than what was shown in the clip, but it was not shown - hence "out of context".
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    Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited July 2022
    I'm not stuck on any one clip nor am I saying any certain part im allowing the entire one to be viewed. Id be happy to post any pvp clips on the game though im not limited to just one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJnLxPDH10I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPJo6o5ZMNw&t=53s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGeUFj_vRdU&t=99s
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    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    How is a full pvp clip on EQ2 out of context?
    It's a clip of a dude who clicks his skills with a fucking mouse. And Noaani has said before that he never even needed to look at his bar in combat (nor did he really had the time). And I trust Noaani when he says that because I was the same. I saw multiple videos with people clicking skills in L2, when I was trying to find gameplay that would represent my lvl of skill.

    So the "context" here is that EQ2 might be way faster than what was shown in the clip, but it was not shown - hence "out of context".

    So what he clicks it with a mouse that is most people, you can be an exception as the 5%. How does clicking your skills as fast as they come up stop you from using them? If you are trying to say his combat can be .1 seconds faster that doesn't change anything.

    You not needing to look at your bar doesn't really make combat magically work different im sorry. You can believe not looking at your bar changes how fast abilities can be used suddenly but that isn't the case. How do you know the person playing isn't using hot keys, clicking and moving at the same time? If he is or isn't doesn't really change anything though, you don't look at keys when you are playing BDO as well.
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    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    We are talking about EQ2 not L2, unless you want to speak for EQ2 in this discussion as the points are between EQ2 and BDO.

    "Out of context clips can be quite deceiving"
    i think this point is relevant for the "EQ2 vs BDO"discussion, don't you think so?

    How is a full pvp clip on EQ2 out of context?

    Are you knowledgeable enough about the class presented, are you knowledgeable enough about the skills used, are you knowledgeable enough about the stats, buffs and gear, are you knowledgeable enough about the players skill level, are you knowledgeable enough about the game version presented?

    Depending on the answers to those question, i can instantly drop the possibility of lack of contextual knowledge about the ciip from your part.

    I have the clip and how often they attack, it seems pretty set across the board on all pvp videos'. He is free to debunk things if he wishes and say what is different or wrong, he is also free to share other videos and explain with them as well over ones i fine. But he never shares anything and not really my fault if he chooses not to.
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I can't speak for EQ2 tho, but the clip you used the guy clicks alot in the skills in his hotbar instead of using the hotkeys, and i don't know if EQ2 also has methods of speeding up skills to that extent like L2, we might have to ask Noaani
    Yeah, the video in question is an old clip of someone in old content (even for the time), that isn't being challenged, nor even paying attention.
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    OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I would like to propose the compromise between all parties that both those games, EQ2 and Black Desert blow GIGA ASS LOL GET REKT.

    Going back to Divinity 2 dont @ me bro
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    Old content and old clip doesn't mean he isn't trying to kill the person in PvP, what reasons do you have that he is not paying attention during that fight? What reasons is he not being challenged in the fight? How based on those reasons does your combat become faster with more inputs during the skill bar times?
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    So what he clicks it with a mouse that is most people
    People that activate abilities by clicking them with their mouse are literally a meme.

    Being called a mouse clicker in EQ2 was the same as being called a neckbeard, or a mouth breather.

    In my many years of playing EQ2, I never once saw anyone kicked out of a group based on a combat tracker, but I did see many people kicked out of groups because they were clicking rather than using hotkeys.

    In a game like EQ2, it is VERY obvious if you are clicking, it shows in your performance on both the combat parse, but also in regards to encounter mechanics (you simply will not be able to complete content if you click - as it means you are focusing your attention on the hot bar rather than the content).

    If you think that most people click with a mouse, this leads me to believe that YOU click with a mouse. As such, the above all applies to you.

    I mean, we already established weeks ago that you are bad at tab target games - I just had no idea you were a mouse clicker.
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    edited July 2022
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    I would like to propose the compromise between all parties that both those games, EQ2 and Black Desert blow GIGA ASS LOL GET REKT.

    Going back to Divinity 2 dont @ me bro

    Imma @Okeydoke you bro, you forgot L2 :D
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    Aren't we all sinners?
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    NiKrNiKr Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You not needing to look at your bar doesn't really make combat magically work different im sorry. You can believe not looking at your bar changes how fast abilities can be used suddenly but that isn't the case. How do you know the person playing isn't using hot keys, clicking and moving at the same time? If he is or isn't doesn't really change anything though, you don't look at keys when you are playing BDO as well.
    Yeah, I wouldn't know how exactly not looking at the bar or clicking it influences the flow of your combat because I haven't played EQ2 extensively. But Noaani has and says that the combat is fast and requires a ton of actions.

    And I can draw a parallel between that information and my own experience of "I know for sure that the videos that I could post do not represent the gameplay that I experienced", so why couldn't it be the same for EQ2.

    And I can even look at BDO videos and see just a few dodges here and there with way more "just standing and unloading skills onto a target until it dies (usually a few seconds at most)", which in comparison to other presented "gameplay difficulty" doesn't quite match. So my assumption would be "the videos don't represent how the game plays, because I see 2 people saying that BDO's combat requires a ton of inputs, while videos don't really show that to me".

    And at this point you'd say "just trust the people who have played the game way more than you", except you'd be megahypocritical in saying that because you never trust Noaani's word and just like to say "I can see all that I need to see in the videos".
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    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    So what he clicks it with a mouse that is most people
    People that activate abilities by clicking them with their mouse are literally a meme.

    Being called a mouse clicker in EQ2 was the same as being called a neckbeard, or a mouth breather.

    In my many years of playing EQ2, I never once saw anyone kicked out of a group based on a combat tracker, but I did see many people kicked out of groups because they were clicking rather than using hotkeys.

    In a game like EQ2, it is VERY obvious if you are clicking, it shows in your performance on both the combat parse, but also in regards to encounter mechanics (you simply will not be able to complete content if you click - as it means you are focusing your attention on the hot bar rather than the content).

    If you think that most people click with a mouse, this leads me to believe that YOU click with a mouse. As such, the above all applies to you.

    I mean, we already established weeks ago that you are bad at tab target games - I just had no idea you were a mouse clicker.

    Id rather you answer my questions above, most people click with their mouse (that does not mean they don't use a set amount of hot keys as well). It is 100% possible though not as efficient to click if you are fast in tab target.

    You can continue to talk "shit" though but the difference between you and I is I don't think as an elitist (those are the types i pk though because they are always toxic). I think what is the main player base doing that plays a game, not the 10%. Do they click yes, do they use hot keys yes. Is there is a mix of both that can lean more in one direction than the other yes.

    If you can see there was a clear difference and that was brought up, it would seen even in the 1% that they exist as well even if it is a smaller amount of them. Assuming normal people play like you if you are actually doing the top 1% of content (and not being carried that is) would be foolish.
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    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You not needing to look at your bar doesn't really make combat magically work different im sorry. You can believe not looking at your bar changes how fast abilities can be used suddenly but that isn't the case. How do you know the person playing isn't using hot keys, clicking and moving at the same time? If he is or isn't doesn't really change anything though, you don't look at keys when you are playing BDO as well.
    Yeah, I wouldn't know how exactly not looking at the bar or clicking it influences the flow of your combat because I haven't played EQ2 extensively. But Noaani has and says that the combat is fast and requires a ton of actions.

    And I can draw a parallel between that information and my own experience of "I know for sure that the videos that I could post do not represent the gameplay that I experienced", so why couldn't it be the same for EQ2.

    And I can even look at BDO videos and see just a few dodges here and there with way more "just standing and unloading skills onto a target until it dies (usually a few seconds at most)", which in comparison to other presented "gameplay difficulty" doesn't quite match. So my assumption would be "the videos don't represent how the game plays, because I see 2 people saying that BDO's combat requires a ton of inputs, while videos don't really show that to me".

    And at this point you'd say "just trust the people who have played the game way more than you", except you'd be megahypocritical in saying that because you never trust Noaani's word and just like to say "I can see all that I need to see in the videos".

    What video are you watching that is showing it doesn't look that intensive or that you might not understand. I have no desire to be hostile on a take or beat around the bush I'd happily hear points in the video and see waht you are talking about and explain. My issue with Noaani is there is no transparency he doesn't actually explain in detail on what could be missed, and then fairly answer a question that might question that element. For example in the pvp videos as I've said before they pretty much have akin to a global cooldown as every skill has a bar on it, (some longer then others) before the skill is used. If that bar is .5-1 second and you can't do actions in-between it. How are you saying you are doing more button inputs then BDO?

    Instead i just hear your game is shit, I won't try it, and won't have a sit down on the combat and maybe explain some things I might not have known. Never said whatever i say is 100% true im just saying what i see on all combat videos ive seen on the game.
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    NiKrNiKr Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You can continue to talk "shit" though but the difference between you and I is I don't think as an elitist (those are the types i pk though because they are always toxic). I think what is the main player base doing that plays a game, not the 10%. Do they click yes, do they use hot keys yes. Is there is a mix of both that can lean more in one direction than the other yes.

    If you can see there was a clear difference and that was brought up, it would seen even in the 1% that they exist as well even if it is a smaller amount of them. Assuming normal people play like you if you are actually doing the top 1% of content (and not being carried that is) would be foolish.
    Do people click abilities in BDO? Can they even? And if they can/could, would you consider them being good at pvp if they did? Could they even be good at pvp if they had the time to take their eyes off of their opponents?

    Cause in L2 you didn't really have time to take your eyes off of your enemy. The ttk was usually too quick for you to do that. And from all the things you've said about BDO, I'd assume it's the same there. And you like to ask people "how good were you in pvp? what's your gear score?", which would imply to me that you do care about the percentile of skill of other people in these threads. We've usually talked in the context of top lvl content, be it pvp or pve. Now you've shifted to "everyday person, rather than top 1%er". But according to that logic, both Noaani and Dygz are "everyday players of BDO" whose opinion should be considered completely valid when talking about combat in that game.
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    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You can continue to talk "shit" though but the difference between you and I is I don't think as an elitist (those are the types i pk though because they are always toxic). I think what is the main player base doing that plays a game, not the 10%. Do they click yes, do they use hot keys yes. Is there is a mix of both that can lean more in one direction than the other yes.

    If you can see there was a clear difference and that was brought up, it would seen even in the 1% that they exist as well even if it is a smaller amount of them. Assuming normal people play like you if you are actually doing the top 1% of content (and not being carried that is) would be foolish.
    Do people click abilities in BDO? Can they even? And if they can/could, would you consider them being good at pvp if they did? Could they even be good at pvp if they had the time to take their eyes off of their opponents?

    Cause in L2 you didn't really have time to take your eyes off of your enemy. The ttk was usually too quick for you to do that. And from all the things you've said about BDO, I'd assume it's the same there. And you like to ask people "how good were you in pvp? what's your gear score?", which would imply to me that you do care about the percentile of skill of other people in these threads. We've usually talked in the context of top lvl content, be it pvp or pve. Now you've shifted to "everyday person, rather than top 1%er". But according to that logic, both Noaani and Dygz are "everyday players of BDO" whose opinion should be considered completely valid when talking about combat in that game.

    You need to track and aim in BDO so there is no time to look at skills. Again I can't speak for L2 I haven't seen enough of that and it be a mess to mix a bunch of mmorpgs together for arguing points atm. But in EQ2 you don't need to track your target if you have line of sight and you are in range your skills will work.

    The difference in how it effects gameplay is a lot more devastating in action combat. In tab if they can be hit and you are moving with your WASD clicking your skill is fine, its not going to stop you from hitting the target. Even more so if you have like .5 seconds between each skill use and they are qued so you won't lose on reaction time of your skills being used.
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