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Animation canceling, Dodging, weaving

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    Azherae wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance.

    I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that.

    Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design.

    In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things.

    Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY.
    Could be. But, I'm not the only one who expriences BDO the way I experience it.


    Even if they are two separate things - both of those separate things remain true.
    "Core design" is probably subjective...

    Well, that's fine, probably the best I can hope for, I guess.

    I'm probably just baselessly worrying that Ashes somehow has no one on staff able to clarify the truths of the specifics.

    If they have all the data and then choose that you're correct, so be it. But every time you say it, I'll have to respond with:

    "Button Mashing is not a core design of Fighting Games."

    Or rather, probably someone else will.

    Also, you're not usually one who argues that Core Design is subjective? Is this a change in your perspective? BDO balance patches and so forth explicitly detail 'in which ways they are changing things' relative to what I'm talking about. If the developers/patch notes say that something is being changed because of their design perspectives, should I not refer to that as Core Design?

    Button mashing may not be a "core design" of fighting games, but I would definitely say the phrase is most closely tied to fighting games...
    It is possible to win in a fighting game by mashing buttons or just spamming the same attack over and over.
    There are some games where that would never work. I'm pretty sure I would never win a round of star craft if I just went ham on a controller.

    If you are button mashing and the person actually know how play the fighting game you shouldn't win ever pretty much. Knowing the mechanics involved and their opening you can beat them really easily. If someone is button mashing and new I just use one hand to beat them.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Would you agree with this?
    I, as a non-fighting game player, would agree with this cause I see fighting games as more of "know your opponent and try to predict his next moves" thing rather than "mash and pray" one.
    Hmmmn.
    BDO combat feels like a Fighting Game combat to me.
    I had said Mortal Kombat. When I Googled BDO Hack N Slash - someone asked if BDO felt like a Hack N Slash and someone included Mortal Kombat as a representative of what it felt like to them as well.

    To me, BDO feels more like button mashing - not exactly like button mashing - but I say that because it doesn't really feel like I'm playing my class. It feels like I press sme buttons and mow shit down. As if I would mow shit down regardless of which buttons I press.
    When Mag7spy and Azhere say that BDO combat becomes more strategic during high level PvP - that again, sounds like a Fighting Game, like Mortal Kombat. You could win by button mashing, but better once you master the actual combos and know which character's combos work best against some other character's combos.
    Which is not the way an RPG should be designed.

    All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance.

    I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that.

    Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design.

    In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things.

    Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY.

    So you are going on record a mmorpg should be designed like a fighting game as far as combat in concerned with skill use and movement.

    It is only in your own mind that I would be opposed to this.

    It is only in your own mind that I disagree with you on the goal. That may be difficult to accept, but I am here arguing for more of it, yes, for at least my own capacity.

    You have a bit of a 'persecution complex', which I admit I have definitely not been successful at preventing. I am not against your concepts, I am against the way you make your arguments. Just stop misleading people. That's all I want.

    It is only in your own mind I'm misleading, I state fact that have to do with the concepts of the games dry and logical. Because it is at ends with your own thoughts rather then saying why something is wrong you say its misleading.

    Ie if every fighting game cc you with every hit, then for the combat to be better in a mmorpg it should follow closer to those lines.

    But for it to make sense for you, you need to think of a more illogical way to rationalize it so it makes sense with your narrative. I don't look at things like this is kind of similar, I look at how the exact systems work in the game as you can dress anything up in attempt to prove a point and to me that is more misleading.

    But fighting games don't 'CC you with every hit'. They have hits after which the attacker is NOT sufficiently plus for their combo to keep working.

    Most of them don't have OTG damage, meaning that as soon as the strike set ends you are invincible until you stand up again and many of them prevent there from being any ambiguity about what the defender does in that moment.

    Many change how plus you are based on whether or not your opponent hit with their move correctly, or if they counter hit.

    I am really not trying to make fun of you, but every time you say something like this, I have to correct you for the few people paying attention to all this that might need a deeper understanding.

    And for all such people... basically nothing Mag just said is true for many many reasons. Fighting games are entirely based on 'how much advantage you have after your opponent is hit' which determines what other moves you can safely use. Your opponent will either block or counter if you go for a move that takes longer to start than your last move 'CC'ed' them. Which in some cases is 'nearly any move' even if you HIT and were not blocked.

    I really don't want to have to teach fighting games to a bunch of people who only barely care just so that they're inoculated against your misleading statements, @Mag7spy , but I am definitely the sort of person that begrudgingly will.

    Seriously please just stop this.

    You are literarily trying to grasp at straws desperately trying to fight for your point when you know that isn't true. Anytime you are hit in a fighting game you get cc'd that doesn't mean you always have a hard cc it can be a mini stagger and your recovery can be just fast enough to move or block else you get hit again. That is the reason why when you are hit it stops your attack if it didn't reach your opponent. Yes there are cc limits where you are able to block or retaliate if they are reached.

    This is what I mean when you are being disingenuous because you feel you are to deep in your point and don't want to ever be wrong. You are full well aware you get cc'd upon hit on normal circumstances be it hard stun or stagger.

    Let me clarify. If your opponent's attacking animation for this 'CC' is longer than your animation for 'staggering from the CC', then you will act before your opponent can do anything.

    In this scenario, you can defeat the opponent that is hitting you. If someone applied this exact principle to an MMO, I would be overjoyed. A scenario in which I could 'be hit, but because my opponent's range was wrong, now they cannot attack again before I can.

    Do you count 'using your own attack' as 'CC-ing yourself'?
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    DolyemDolyem Member
    edited July 2022
    Everybody check your posture and drink some water. Surprised this discussion is still going!
    GJjUGHx.gif
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    That is how BDO is if you get hit by a stagger or a float but you use a stun or knockdown on them you will be able to react first before they hit you. Also if they overextend and miss their skill and it has more recovery time you can take advantage of their opening.

    I don't view yourself as getting cc'd by attacking no i view you are simply attacking. Part of a fighting game is to take advantage of that though of course and use your opening against you, and why I like soulcalibur with the complexity of the combat and its just a lot more fun (though this is besides the point)

    Though I don't like the idea of a mmo being over filled my stuns and such like that, not saying its not doable but it might not be fun for a lot of people as it will be considered a cc fest. I hate lost ark pvp since all moves stagger me out of my skills and its annoying, granted I prob shouldn't be pvping with gunslinger. I like it yet its play style doesn't match my own. So i get over frustrated when im getting cc'd out of all my skills even more so off screen when mi suppose to be a range class.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    That is how BDO is if you get hit by a stagger or a float but you use a stun or knockdown on them you will be able to react first before they hit you. Also if they overextend and miss their skill and it has more recovery time you can take advantage of their opening.

    I don't view yourself as getting cc'd by attacking no i view you are simply attacking. Part of a fighting game is to take advantage of that though of course and use your opening against you, and why I like soulcalibur with the complexity of the combat and its just a lot more fun (though this is besides the point)

    Though I don't like the idea of a mmo being over filled my stuns and such like that, not saying its not doable but it might not be fun for a lot of people as it will be considered a cc fest. I hate lost ark pvp since all moves stagger me out of my skills and its annoying, granted I prob shouldn't be pvping with gunslinger. I like it yet its play style doesn't match my own. So i get over frustrated when im getting cc'd out of all my skills even more so off screen when mi suppose to be a range class.

    I'm not talking about trades though.

    Either way, it is currently not guaranteed that the person I was engaging in this conversation 'for' actually cares about the details or knowing when you say something that is not necessarily true, and I now have enough data to understand how to update my model.

    You are now free to lead people to whatever conclusions you have. I suppose there is no specific benefit to me calling out either you or Dygz on your statements if there is no one who needs clarification.

    Proceed.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited July 2022
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You are literarily trying to grasp at straws

    @Azherae

    Dude, give him back his straws, he needs them to build his men!

    Either way, Mag is literarily diluted. The poor guys head cannon must be going off in all sorts of directions!

    (Edit to add; I am unsure if anyone other than myself will fully appreciate this post, kudos to you for paying attention to multiple threads if you do)
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    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You are literarily trying to grasp at straws

    @Azherae

    Dude, give him back his straws, he needs them to build his men!

    Either way, Mag is literarily diluted. The poor guys head cannon must be going off in all sorts of directions!

    (Edit to add; I am unsure if anyone other than myself will fully appreciate this post, kudos to you for paying attention to multiple threads if you do)

    As usual you bring more insults then actual evidence to a conversation.
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    Noaani wrote: »
    Either way, Mag is literarily diluted. The poor guys head cannon must be going off in all sorts of directions!

    (Edit to add; I am unsure if anyone other than myself will fully appreciate this post, kudos to you for paying attention to multiple threads if you do)
    3wswpgcyzbkl.gif
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You are literarily trying to grasp at straws

    @Azherae

    Dude, give him back his straws, he needs them to build his men!

    Either way, Mag is literarily diluted. The poor guys head cannon must be going off in all sorts of directions!

    (Edit to add; I am unsure if anyone other than myself will fully appreciate this post, kudos to you for paying attention to multiple threads if you do)

    As usual you bring more insults then actual evidence to a conversation.

    I would say it's a dig more than an insult.

    The fun this about it is - if you read it replacing the words I intentionally mis-used that you have previously mis-used for the word that you intended at the time, it is a dig.

    However, if you just read it as it is now, it has a totally different meaning.

    Well, not totally different, it is still a dig, it's just a different dig.

    And to others reading, while it may seem patronizing pointing out the digs above, I am of the opinion that if I am going to have a dig at someone, they should at least be aware of the fact.

    I do not believe Mag would have been aware of one of the above digs, so it is only fair to inform him.
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    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    You are literarily trying to grasp at straws

    @Azherae

    Dude, give him back his straws, he needs them to build his men!

    Either way, Mag is literarily diluted. The poor guys head cannon must be going off in all sorts of directions!

    (Edit to add; I am unsure if anyone other than myself will fully appreciate this post, kudos to you for paying attention to multiple threads if you do)

    As usual you bring more insults then actual evidence to a conversation.

    I would say it's a dig more than an insult.

    The fun this about it is - if you read it replacing the words I intentionally mis-used that you have previously mis-used for the word that you intended at the time, it is a dig.

    However, if you just read it as it is now, it has a totally different meaning.

    Well, not totally different, it is still a dig, it's just a different dig.

    And to others reading, while it may seem patronizing pointing out the digs above, I am of the opinion that if I am going to have a dig at someone, they should at least be aware of the fact.

    I do not believe Mag would have been aware of one of the above digs, so it is only fair to inform him.

    c5udx1ogw3g6.png

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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    NiKr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Either way, Mag is literarily diluted. The poor guys head cannon must be going off in all sorts of directions!

    (Edit to add; I am unsure if anyone other than myself will fully appreciate this post, kudos to you for paying attention to multiple threads if you do)
    3wswpgcyzbkl.gif

    Honestly, I'm just glad it wasnt only for myself...
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    OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    So his spelling hasn't quite caught up with his vocabulary. lol lay off him. Kind of normal these days. Honestly we're the fkn weirdos for knowing how to spell. Give it another 10 years watch, we'll definitely be in the minority.

    Congrats Mag, you went 10+ pages with Noaani. Lil side dish of Azherae. I've been there. You're a regular now for better or for worse haha
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    Okeydoke wrote: »
    So his spelling hasn't quite caught up with his vocabulary. lol lay off him. Kind of normal these days. Honestly we're the fkn weirdos for knowing how to spell. Give it another 10 years watch, we'll definitely be in the minority.
    We're already there. Just the damned "your/you're/there/their/ther/were/we're/where" alone give me an aneurism every time I see them used incorrectly. And that happens A LOT.
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    OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Probably are already their. Your right. Were in trouble
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    NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    So his spelling hasn't quite caught up with his vocabulary. lol lay off him. Kind of normal these days. Honestly we're the fkn weirdos for knowing how to spell. Give it another 10 years watch, we'll definitely be in the minority.

    The reason I find it amusing is because I gave him several chances to check himself with the first one I bothered doing anything about.

    I'm not one to have a dig at people for small things unless I've personally offered some assistance, and it has been turned down. That is essentially the case here, so I feel having the occasional dig is valid - and hey, it may even be the catalyst they need to learn different, similar sounding words rather tha just accepting the first recommendation for spelling that they get.

    I mean, I get things wrong too.

    Point is, I always offer the assistance first.
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    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance.

    I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that.

    Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design.

    In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things.

    Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY.
    Could be. But, I'm not the only one who expriences BDO the way I experience it.


    Even if they are two separate things - both of those separate things remain true.
    "Core design" is probably subjective...

    Well, that's fine, probably the best I can hope for, I guess.

    I'm probably just baselessly worrying that Ashes somehow has no one on staff able to clarify the truths of the specifics.

    If they have all the data and then choose that you're correct, so be it. But every time you say it, I'll have to respond with:

    "Button Mashing is not a core design of Fighting Games."

    Or rather, probably someone else will.

    Also, you're not usually one who argues that Core Design is subjective? Is this a change in your perspective? BDO balance patches and so forth explicitly detail 'in which ways they are changing things' relative to what I'm talking about. If the developers/patch notes say that something is being changed because of their design perspectives, should I not refer to that as Core Design?

    Button mashing may not be a "core design" of fighting games, but I would definitely say the phrase is most closely tied to fighting games...
    It is possible to win in a fighting game by mashing buttons or just spamming the same attack over and over.
    There are some games where that would never work. I'm pretty sure I would never win a round of star craft if I just went ham on a controller.

    But that depends on the skill of your opponent as well, which is the point being made here.

    Since you're the only person I was actually addressing to start this whole mess, if you don't care about the specifics either, I'll just stop.

    I was just commenting on the verbage with that one.
    But
    If BDO is closest to an arcade fighter among MMOs would it also track that BDO would be the most button mash friendly of the MMO? As in if people freak they're just going to click all the things to throw anything at a target?

    And yes of course someone who knows how to play sold do better than a button mash'er, I want claiming otherwise. I was just saying that the phrase button mashing is most closely tied to fighting games... Like almost exclusively.

    But I'm very much not a fighting game gamer, just not my thing. Probably why I have the opinion of not wanting my MMOs to have any flavoring of fighting game in it.
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    OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    so I feel having the occasional dig is valid

    I agree, nothing wrong with a lil dig here and there.

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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    All I ever ask of you is that you accept that this specific thing you 'assert' is born of ignorance.

    I don't even care if you continue to be 'the voice of the uninitiated', the one who speaks for those who do not have enough experience to see or think otherwise. Intrepid will make the decision depending on the discussions that result from that.

    Just don't keep repeating this aspect of it. It's simply not true. Not even a little bit true. It is the experience you have had, but not the core of the design.

    In this way your point is similar to Mag's type of point. It is true that an RPG should not be designed as you have just described but NOT true that an RPG should not be designed 'like a Fighting Game', because these are two separate things.

    Your perception of BDO is correct, and it is because of this that I tell you, and everyone else here, BDO is LESS like a fighting game than Ashes is ALREADY.
    Could be. But, I'm not the only one who expriences BDO the way I experience it.


    Even if they are two separate things - both of those separate things remain true.
    "Core design" is probably subjective...

    Well, that's fine, probably the best I can hope for, I guess.

    I'm probably just baselessly worrying that Ashes somehow has no one on staff able to clarify the truths of the specifics.

    If they have all the data and then choose that you're correct, so be it. But every time you say it, I'll have to respond with:

    "Button Mashing is not a core design of Fighting Games."

    Or rather, probably someone else will.

    Also, you're not usually one who argues that Core Design is subjective? Is this a change in your perspective? BDO balance patches and so forth explicitly detail 'in which ways they are changing things' relative to what I'm talking about. If the developers/patch notes say that something is being changed because of their design perspectives, should I not refer to that as Core Design?

    Button mashing may not be a "core design" of fighting games, but I would definitely say the phrase is most closely tied to fighting games...
    It is possible to win in a fighting game by mashing buttons or just spamming the same attack over and over.
    There are some games where that would never work. I'm pretty sure I would never win a round of star craft if I just went ham on a controller.

    But that depends on the skill of your opponent as well, which is the point being made here.

    Since you're the only person I was actually addressing to start this whole mess, if you don't care about the specifics either, I'll just stop.

    I was just commenting on the verbage with that one.
    But
    If BDO is closest to an arcade fighter among MMOs would it also track that BDO would be the most button mash friendly of the MMO? As in if people freak they're just going to click all the things to throw anything at a target?

    And yes of course someone who knows how to play sold do better than a button mash'er, I want claiming otherwise. I was just saying that the phrase button mashing is most closely tied to fighting games... Like almost exclusively.

    But I'm very much not a fighting game gamer, just not my thing. Probably why I have the opinion of not wanting my MMOs to have any flavoring of fighting game in it.

    No, BDO is not button mashing friendly in the basic sense.

    Rather, BDO is incredibly easy PvE, I don't know if you perceive there to be a difference, though. If you attempt to 'button-mash' your way through BDO on anything that lasts more than 3 attacks you usually just die. But perhaps that term has a different definition for you than it does for me.

    BDO is also not closest to an arcade fighter amongst MMOs, that honor goes to Age of Conan, then Onigiri (though depending on your perspective Onigiri is more of a Co-op adventure game, but it counts itself as an RPG and has an 'economy'). But again, perhaps 'Arcade Fighter' has a different definition for you than it does for me.

    I will go no further as I still don't know for certain if you actually care about this or not. "I don't want any fighting game in my MMO" is sufficient for me if you also don't wish to understand anything additional.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Yeah, I mean…
    My use of the term button-mashing for BDO is hyperbole.
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    CROW3CROW3 Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Yeah, I mean…
    My use of the term button-mashing for BDO is hyperbole.

    You really mean buttons-mashing, right? 🤗

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
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    DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I’ll smash yo’ button, Honey!
    Sure!

    ba dumm dumm
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    CROW3CROW3 Member
    Bwhahahaha!
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
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    ItsmeTokiItsmeToki Member
    edited July 2022
    Guys as annoying as someone can be, its not nice to call out a person over his spelling :) Some of us are foreigners with other mother tongues like myself. Still, i can not argue that sometimes it seems, that this guy is living in his own little world far away from reality...
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    ItsmeToki wrote: »
    Guys as annoying as someone can be, its not nice to call out a person over his spelling :) Some of us are foreigners with other mother tongues like myself. Still, i can not argue that sometimes it seems, that this guy is living in his own little world far away from reality...

    You are living in a world without reality if you think tab target should work the same as action combat where you need to aim your skills as far as dmg and accuracy is concerned :)
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