PenguinPaladin wrote: » Treefrog wrote: » It's really bizarre reading some of these replies. I'm curious, what MMO have any of you played that didn't have cancelling? It's literally been in every mmo I've ever played. The game where it was least impactful was probably FFXIV, but even then you could start moving before the endlag of casts was completed. And frankly, that game essentially has 0 pvp, so its w/e. Giving players the ability to reduce endlag by weaving into their next ability or movement skill simply promotes more freedom of skill expression and unique interactions. Forcing every single animation to ride out the entirety of its endlag is a massive slog, it essentially makes it fast turn based combat. Obviously bad examples of this are block cancelling from ESO, it was obviously a silly mechanic that was far too strong, but imo basic weaving is essential to having exciting combat in 2022. It's been staaple in mmos for near decades. I think this is more definition drift.... Of course animations should end smoothly, and blend into your next action. And some skills can even be cancleable. As part of the skills. The refered to "animation canceling" that will not be in ashes is, the easiest reference i can think of is susano from smite. Where his dps without cancling animation vs with animation canceling changes by like 1.3 to 1.4 times...
Treefrog wrote: » It's really bizarre reading some of these replies. I'm curious, what MMO have any of you played that didn't have cancelling? It's literally been in every mmo I've ever played. The game where it was least impactful was probably FFXIV, but even then you could start moving before the endlag of casts was completed. And frankly, that game essentially has 0 pvp, so its w/e. Giving players the ability to reduce endlag by weaving into their next ability or movement skill simply promotes more freedom of skill expression and unique interactions. Forcing every single animation to ride out the entirety of its endlag is a massive slog, it essentially makes it fast turn based combat. Obviously bad examples of this are block cancelling from ESO, it was obviously a silly mechanic that was far too strong, but imo basic weaving is essential to having exciting combat in 2022. It's been staaple in mmos for near decades.
ItsmeToki wrote: » If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe for healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded with getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call pressing one buttom a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so. Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns on abilitites. Ah and one more thing. Defensive cooldowns allways should have a decent higher cooldowntimer than burst abilitites. Especially if classes have more than one defensive cd or are able to use those on other allied players. Otherways fights will last a dacade long.
ItsmeToki wrote: » If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded by getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call spamming one button which is available at all times a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so. Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced at all times and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns and abilitites. Dodge rolls without iframes on the other hand I like to see. If you are able to either close the gap between you and your enemie using it to get some distance between counterparties or just to quickly changing your position on the battlefield by doing a roll or a dive is a fun thing imo.
Mag7spy wrote: » ItsmeToki wrote: » If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe for healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded with getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call pressing one buttom a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so. Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns on abilitites. Ah and one more thing. Defensive cooldowns allways should have a decent higher cooldowntimer than burst abilitites. Especially if classes have more than one defensive cd or are able to use those on other allied players. Otherways fights will last a dacade long. Iframe dodges don't lead to new world lol. Only thing i agree is they shouldn't have a 2-4 second cool down.5 would be fine to me. Also the latter sounds you are complaining that people out skilled you by dodging your attack. If your plan is to bust someone while they are not cc'd and that is all you have, you shouldn't be winning a fight. A fight isn't trying to blow someone up in one second, only reason to do that is to prevent a fight. Iframe dodges belong in all forms of games as along as they are balanced. Idea of bust window at all points is lack luster and boring. Its not skill you are simply throwing all your cooldowns so you don't have to worry about how the others respond in combat. Iframes are action game oriented and not in shooters, stop trying to compare shooting games to mmorpgs it isn't making your argument stronger you are just random nonsense to try to make people worried.
SirChancelot wrote: » ItsmeToki wrote: » If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded by getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call spamming one button which is available at all times a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so. Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced at all times and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns and abilitites. Dodge rolls without iframes on the other hand I like to see. If you are able to either close the gap between you and your enemie using it to get some distance between counterparties or just to quickly changing your position on the battlefield by doing a roll or a dive is a fun thing imo. What if Dodges could only be used to get out of AOE effects or range they didn't just ignore all damage the way it didn't new world. So even if your Dodge rolling you can still be hit... Because that's realistic.
ItsmeToki wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » ItsmeToki wrote: » If by dodging you mean iframed dodgerolls: If there are Iframes implemented in the game, they should be designed as abilities with very long cooldowns. And especially not every class should feature those abilities (Maybe for healers as an escape ability). The core combat system should not be designed around iframe dodge rolls or such things. They lead to clunky gameplay experiences as you can see in games like New World. Furthermore imagine a PvP Situation where you coordinate and prepare a Burst phase with your arena teammates by skillfully managing to get all the defensiv cds out of the enemie team through efficient cc usage while saving your own burst cds . Now you should be rewarded with getting through a satisfying amount of damage onto the enemie. But instead of doing damage the enemie just rolls away unharmed just by pressing one single buttom which grants them immunity. So your whole work of setting up a burst window was for nothing. Do you think ppl would like such a gameplay. Do you call pressing one buttom a skillfull defensiv move. No i dont think so. Iframe dodge rolls belong to fps games where gameplay is fast paced and ppl dont need to manage cooldowns on abilitites. Ah and one more thing. Defensive cooldowns allways should have a decent higher cooldowntimer than burst abilitites. Especially if classes have more than one defensive cd or are able to use those on other allied players. Otherways fights will last a dacade long. Iframe dodges don't lead to new world lol. Only thing i agree is they shouldn't have a 2-4 second cool down.5 would be fine to me. Also the latter sounds you are complaining that people out skilled you by dodging your attack. If your plan is to bust someone while they are not cc'd and that is all you have, you shouldn't be winning a fight. A fight isn't trying to blow someone up in one second, only reason to do that is to prevent a fight. Iframe dodges belong in all forms of games as along as they are balanced. Idea of bust window at all points is lack luster and boring. Its not skill you are simply throwing all your cooldowns so you don't have to worry about how the others respond in combat. Iframes are action game oriented and not in shooters, stop trying to compare shooting games to mmorpgs it isn't making your argument stronger you are just random nonsense to try to make people worried. Didnt say you should burst someone without having cc available. But if a person predicts a incoming cc by pressing a all time available immunityframe cc will no longer matter and the situation would be as i described it. If you can spam the iframeroll every few seconds you moreover dont even need to be good in predicting things.
PenguinPaladin wrote: » Lets go back to your, i waited for my opening, slowly baiting out their resources and here is my opportunity to push in... then having an action dodge, is just them having one last effort to attempt to foil your push. It makes "making the moment count" more rewarding, on success or more punishing on failure. Its just another step to combat. Not something that makes the combat itself futile
ItsmeToki wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » Lets go back to your, i waited for my opening, slowly baiting out their resources and here is my opportunity to push in... then having an action dodge, is just them having one last effort to attempt to foil your push. It makes "making the moment count" more rewarding, on success or more punishing on failure. Its just another step to combat. Not something that makes the combat itself futile One last attempt to foil a push every few seconds. Yep sounds great and balanced.
PenguinPaladin wrote: » ItsmeToki wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » Lets go back to your, i waited for my opening, slowly baiting out their resources and here is my opportunity to push in... then having an action dodge, is just them having one last effort to attempt to foil your push. It makes "making the moment count" more rewarding, on success or more punishing on failure. Its just another step to combat. Not something that makes the combat itself futile One last attempt to foil a push every few seconds. Yep sounds great and balanced. Also know as down but not out..... always having a chance at fighting back is exciting. I really dont think someone able to do nothing but dodge is such a threat that i would lose an engagement.
ItsmeToki wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » ItsmeToki wrote: » PenguinPaladin wrote: » Lets go back to your, i waited for my opening, slowly baiting out their resources and here is my opportunity to push in... then having an action dodge, is just them having one last effort to attempt to foil your push. It makes "making the moment count" more rewarding, on success or more punishing on failure. Its just another step to combat. Not something that makes the combat itself futile One last attempt to foil a push every few seconds. Yep sounds great and balanced. Also know as down but not out..... always having a chance at fighting back is exciting. I really dont think someone able to do nothing but dodge is such a threat that i would lose an engagement. At some point you must be out of options. At least fore some period. At least if you like the checkmate system approach on combat.
ItsmeToki wrote: » Yeah super-jumps and super dodge-rolls I like it! And why dont we give everybody insane permanent invisibility as well.
