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Cosmetic Shop is P2W

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Comments

  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    P2W gear confirmed on lebron james....imagine people irl said things like this.

    3m9e310ysprw.png
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    I do not know intrepids goal or do i speak with them, but i do inderstand that a company is always out to make what money it can. Until ashes proves it can be a lasting success, it make since for the company to try and capitalize on its risks.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Like I said, their scope is to have many progression paths, and there is supposed to be a loose "intended way to play."
    And I want to play a genocidal murderer, but the game will stop me from doing so by nerfing my stats to such an extent that I can no longer kill anyone. So playing a role of a genocidal murderer is not an intended way to play the game. Of course I could just use my imagination and pretend that I'm said murderer, but at that point I'm not participating in the game's gameplay, I'm just imagining shit.

    And one could draw a parallel between that system limitation and a potential limitation of playing as a part of any given NPC group. You can always imagine that you're a part of that group (and cosmetics would have no real influence or limitation on your imagination), but gameplay-wise you might not be able to directly play the role of a member.

    There's a reason why we'll have a system-based Marriage feature. Because Intrepid directly supports people marrying each other in the game and have this event as an intended part of gameplay. I'm sure there's a ton of mmos where there is no such feature, but players still RPed as a married couple there. The system itself didn't stop them from pretending that they're married, but there were no wedding clothes in the game nor was there any feature/mechanic related to 2 people being together.

    So with that in mind I can't see how any potential cosmetic in the shop is, in any way, stopping any player in the game from partaking in RP. Would the cosmetic make it easier to RP? Yeah, probably. But, as I've said before, this would make the whole cosmetic store a p4c feature rather than a p2w one. There's no difference between 2 people saying "I'm a knight". The sheer fact of them proclaiming that would mean that they've reached their goal of "RPing as a knight". The cosmetic doesn't suddenly make one of them more of a knight, while any other "p2w feature" does have that effect.

    And as I've stated before, if you positioned your argument around cosmetics being p4c and said that you were against them, more people would be on your side, because the argument of "p4c is pretty much p2w" is a much more debated one than the "cosmetics are p2w" argument.
  • MaiWaifu wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    MaiWaifu wrote: »
    My point is that you can't achieve this look in game at all without cash shop. The cosmetic is untradable. I don't think it counts as winning over someone since that person isn't in the race for that look at all.
    Collection of appearances is a game mechanic. Being able to buy any feature of your character that otherwise could be achieved in game through content and game mechanics, is paying to “win” part of the game.
    The mechanic is in the game, various cosmetics are in the game, I am not speaking to any one specific cosmetic I am speaking to the concept of selling them as a whole. The in-game feature of character appearance also being sold for extra. I really don't know how else to explain it.

    Would you consider DLC costumes in games like Streetfighter P2W?

    I have never played that game, so I can't say for sure... but I don't generally consider expansions or DLCs in non-mmos to be p2w. Like I said, my post was about mmos. If it's an open world rpg mmo with multiple progression paths, then probably.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    This whole thread is repeating for a reaction when you were apart of another forum and you decided to be spiteful and toxic on the forum. Creating a thread calling it P2W, even with the definition of p2w not matching cosmetics in this game.

    It doesn't matter how much you try to twist it to suit your own bias you are blatantly lying and being misleading as hell on the forum. Pretty damn disrespectful if you ask me. You aren't answer peoples points you are simply ignoring or try to weasel around in a way you can accept to try to say you are right.

    Outfits in this game are not pay o win they do not give you an advantage, they do not give you money for selling on the market. Stop lying to peoples faces, you think being disrespectful to people is going to create a positive thread because you want to be mad and attack the game?

    Not being spiteful or toxic, just sharing a counter perspective. Not lying or misleading anyone, they are free to make their own conclusions. Not ignoring anyone's points that are relevant, like this post you've just made is again something I should have ignored because it's irrelevant and full of accusations and insults. Not attacking the game at all, just pointing out something I found to be misleading that there is no p2w and if you actually read any part of my perspective, you'd see why I interpret it as p2w. Excited for the game regardless and not mad at all. :D

    You don't get to redefine what p2w is to fit your narrative lmfao.

    Not redefining it to fit a narrative, just offering a counter perspective. I think you are more so limiting what p2w actually is based on the way you like to play roleplaying games.

    It isn't a counter perspective, all you are doing is being ignorant. P2W has to do with power gain in a game where you have an advantage over another in gameplay and can use money to order to more effectively do content.

    You saying someone is limiting pay to win is again, you trying to redefine what pay to win is you are actually doing it within the same post it is pretty sad.


    To say that social influence in an rpg mmo isn't "power gain," then you don't understand rpg mmos. This game is literally going to have Kings and social hierarchy. Again, you are limiting things to your view of how online massively multiplayer roleplaying games should be played.
  • Dolyem wrote: »
    A gameplay advantage is not provided through cosmetics, therefore you aren't able to increase your chances of winning in gameplay when paying for cosmetics. Cosmetics are not pay to win, its pay to dress up.

    You are not directly responding to any of my claims so I assume you didn't even read anything, but the title. That's your opinion and that's fine, but I already countered it in the original post.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    This game is literally going to have Kings and social hierarchy.

    @NiKr - just make sure you're wearing your fancy cloak when you declare me an enemy of the state. ;)

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.

    I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, sorry for that inconvenience to you. Like I said, it's never been my goal to convince PenguinPaladin of this perspective XD
  • MaiWaifuMaiWaifu Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I have never played that game, so I can't say for sure... but I don't generally consider expansions or DLCs in non-mmos to be p2w. Like I said, my post was about mmos. If it's an open world rpg mmo with multiple progression paths, then probably.

    I brought up Streetfighter since they are classic 1v1 online games.

    Would you consider emotes and different text colours as p2w in legacy style, text-based MMORPGS?
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Collection of appearances is a game mechanic. Being able to buy any feature of your character that otherwise could be achieved in game through content and game mechanics, is paying to “win” part of the game.
    The mechanic is in the game, various cosmetics are in the game, I am not speaking to any one specific cosmetic I am speaking to the concept of selling them as a whole. The in-game feature of character appearance also being sold for extra. I really don't know how else to explain it.
    Ok, so then what if Intrepid has an in-game list of "collectible cosmetics" that does not include a single store cosmetic in it. Would you still consider them p2w?
    Iridianny wrote: »
    And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?
    Afaik WoW is still selling box+sub+cosmetics+tokens.

    And if you wanna say they didn't start out this way, then yeah, they started out 18 damn years ago. Times have changed and the industry has changed with them. Iirc GW2 is selling cosmetics too, and that shit's infamously known as Dressup Wars (or whatever equivalent name for "people measure their dicks in cosmetics rather than anything else). Yet I'm pretty sure that in-game super rare cosmetics are way more valued there and I don't think I've heard GW2 players ever mentioning the unfairness of buyable cosmetics. If we got any GW2 players here, please do correct me if I said smth wrong.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 5
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.

    I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, sorry for that inconvenience to you. Like I said, it's never been my goal to convince PenguinPaladin of this perspective XD

    Alright. Then i dont know why you come back to this thread.... what are you doing here if you dont want to discuss things, explain your views, and work towards an understanding or solution?

    Im literally trying to help you become constructive over toxic here... but alright. Bye.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    edited August 5
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    A gameplay advantage is not provided through cosmetics, therefore you aren't able to increase your chances of winning in gameplay when paying for cosmetics. Cosmetics are not pay to win, its pay to dress up.

    You are not directly responding to any of my claims so I assume you didn't even read anything, but the title. That's your opinion and that's fine, but I already countered it in the original post.

    I did read it. Your entire argument is "This is my definition of "winning" in a game so I can try to argue that I shouldn't have to support the game by paying for cosmetics features that aren't a factor in gameplay, and don't affect my ability to have impact on outcomes involving other players"

    Cosmetics have no affect on gameplay. Therefore they can't give you an advantage in any gameplay systems. A collection is purely personal, it doesn't affect other players, therefore it is irrelevant in terms of "winning" in an mmo. Its focus is multi-player, and in this game, there is no paid for advantage to put you ahead of other players.

    Dressing up is single player mode content.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • MaiWaifu wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I have never played that game, so I can't say for sure... but I don't generally consider expansions or DLCs in non-mmos to be p2w. Like I said, my post was about mmos. If it's an open world rpg mmo with multiple progression paths, then probably.

    I brought up Streetfighter since they are classic 1v1 online games.

    Would you consider emotes and different text colours as p2w in legacy style, text-based MMORPGS?

    Not sure, I’ve never played a text based mmorg. Initial response is that I think because it’s text based and not visually based with the visual mechanics of character creation and expression having such an impact on the experience of the game that it can’t really be compared.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    This whole thread is repeating for a reaction when you were apart of another forum and you decided to be spiteful and toxic on the forum. Creating a thread calling it P2W, even with the definition of p2w not matching cosmetics in this game.

    It doesn't matter how much you try to twist it to suit your own bias you are blatantly lying and being misleading as hell on the forum. Pretty damn disrespectful if you ask me. You aren't answer peoples points you are simply ignoring or try to weasel around in a way you can accept to try to say you are right.

    Outfits in this game are not pay o win they do not give you an advantage, they do not give you money for selling on the market. Stop lying to peoples faces, you think being disrespectful to people is going to create a positive thread because you want to be mad and attack the game?

    Not being spiteful or toxic, just sharing a counter perspective. Not lying or misleading anyone, they are free to make their own conclusions. Not ignoring anyone's points that are relevant, like this post you've just made is again something I should have ignored because it's irrelevant and full of accusations and insults. Not attacking the game at all, just pointing out something I found to be misleading that there is no p2w and if you actually read any part of my perspective, you'd see why I interpret it as p2w. Excited for the game regardless and not mad at all. :D

    You don't get to redefine what p2w is to fit your narrative lmfao.

    Not redefining it to fit a narrative, just offering a counter perspective. I think you are more so limiting what p2w actually is based on the way you like to play roleplaying games.

    It isn't a counter perspective, all you are doing is being ignorant. P2W has to do with power gain in a game where you have an advantage over another in gameplay and can use money to order to more effectively do content.

    You saying someone is limiting pay to win is again, you trying to redefine what pay to win is you are actually doing it within the same post it is pretty sad.


    To say that social influence in an rpg mmo isn't "power gain," then you don't understand rpg mmos. This game is literally going to have Kings and social hierarchy. Again, you are limiting things to your view of how online massively multiplayer roleplaying games should be played.

    @NiKr please help me understand this lmfao. Dressing up is social influence? I don't remember me being in a guild and someone checking out how my pixels looked and that having any influence of pvp or a siege akin to taking a node or territory (akin to as she says being a king).

    I'm not limiting my view I'm telling you that isn't pay to win, you are lying to my face again and making things up like social influence and how you look as if that is going to effective who is mayor. Just admit you are in the wrong and everyone would move on from the p2w.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Collection of appearances is a game mechanic. Being able to buy any feature of your character that otherwise could be achieved in game through content and game mechanics, is paying to “win” part of the game.
    The mechanic is in the game, various cosmetics are in the game, I am not speaking to any one specific cosmetic I am speaking to the concept of selling them as a whole. The in-game feature of character appearance also being sold for extra. I really don't know how else to explain it.
    Ok, so then what if Intrepid has an in-game list of "collectible cosmetics" that does not include a single store cosmetic in it. Would you still consider them p2w?
    Iridianny wrote: »
    And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?
    Afaik WoW is still selling box+sub+cosmetics+tokens.

    And if you wanna say they didn't start out this way, then yeah, they started out 18 damn years ago. Times have changed and the industry has changed with them. Iirc GW2 is selling cosmetics too, and that shit's infamously known as Dressup Wars (or whatever equivalent name for "people measure their dicks in cosmetics rather than anything else). Yet I'm pretty sure that in-game super rare cosmetics are way more valued there and I don't think I've heard GW2 players ever mentioning the unfairness of buyable cosmetics. If we got any GW2 players here, please do correct me if I said smth wrong.

    Uh what? I am a little confused. Anything that’s achievable in game is not p2w, no, if that’s what you’re asking.

    Yea they have p2w, and it makes me dislike the game and the community disliked it so much so that they released multiple versions of their classic game before any p2w was added, from yes 18 years ago. Almost all end game of mmos is appearance and gear collection. Even someone who thinks they don’t care about appearances and just care about numbers still decide what is the “best” piece of gear, care about gear, admire gear, and utilize transmog features. Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    This whole thread is repeating for a reaction when you were apart of another forum and you decided to be spiteful and toxic on the forum. Creating a thread calling it P2W, even with the definition of p2w not matching cosmetics in this game.

    It doesn't matter how much you try to twist it to suit your own bias you are blatantly lying and being misleading as hell on the forum. Pretty damn disrespectful if you ask me. You aren't answer peoples points you are simply ignoring or try to weasel around in a way you can accept to try to say you are right.

    Outfits in this game are not pay o win they do not give you an advantage, they do not give you money for selling on the market. Stop lying to peoples faces, you think being disrespectful to people is going to create a positive thread because you want to be mad and attack the game?

    Not being spiteful or toxic, just sharing a counter perspective. Not lying or misleading anyone, they are free to make their own conclusions. Not ignoring anyone's points that are relevant, like this post you've just made is again something I should have ignored because it's irrelevant and full of accusations and insults. Not attacking the game at all, just pointing out something I found to be misleading that there is no p2w and if you actually read any part of my perspective, you'd see why I interpret it as p2w. Excited for the game regardless and not mad at all. :D

    You don't get to redefine what p2w is to fit your narrative lmfao.

    Not redefining it to fit a narrative, just offering a counter perspective. I think you are more so limiting what p2w actually is based on the way you like to play roleplaying games.

    It isn't a counter perspective, all you are doing is being ignorant. P2W has to do with power gain in a game where you have an advantage over another in gameplay and can use money to order to more effectively do content.

    You saying someone is limiting pay to win is again, you trying to redefine what pay to win is you are actually doing it within the same post it is pretty sad.


    To say that social influence in an rpg mmo isn't "power gain," then you don't understand rpg mmos. This game is literally going to have Kings and social hierarchy. Again, you are limiting things to your view of how online massively multiplayer roleplaying games should be played.

    @NiKr please help me understand this lmfao. Dressing up is social influence? I don't remember me being in a guild and someone checking out how my pixels looked and that having any influence of pvp or a siege akin to taking a node or territory (akin to as she says being a king).

    I'm not limiting my view I'm telling you that isn't pay to win, you are lying to my face again and making things up like social influence and how you look as if that is going to effective who is mayor. Just admit you are in the wrong and everyone would move on from the p2w.

    Now that you mention it, there have been plenty of times in MMOs where I absolutely stomped players with much cooler looking cosmetics than me. Crazy how their look didn't factor into their stats and skill. It's like looking good doesn't matter in the aspect of actually playing a game.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • MaiWaifuMaiWaifu Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Not sure, I’ve never played a text based mmorg. Initial response is that I think because it’s text based and not visually based with the visual mechanics of character creation and expression having such an impact on the experience of the game that it can’t really be compared.

    I think they'd be equal in terms of visual impact.

    I mean, a red axe is visually different to a blue axe. They're still both just axes. It's just an appearance has been applied using a cash shop.

    Visually I might have preference for one over the other.

    But I don't think I agree that this counts as being pay to win... It's just a visual effect?

    It doesn't change the nature of the item. The only thing it effects is other peoples opinion and perception of it. This is purely subjective whether they think it is better or not.
  • Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    A gameplay advantage is not provided through cosmetics, therefore you aren't able to increase your chances of winning in gameplay when paying for cosmetics. Cosmetics are not pay to win, its pay to dress up.

    You are not directly responding to any of my claims so I assume you didn't even read anything, but the title. That's your opinion and that's fine, but I already countered it in the original post.

    I did read it. Your entire argument is "This is my definition of "winning" in a game so I can try to argue that I shouldn't have to support the game by paying for cosmetics features that aren't a factor in gameplay, and don't affect my ability to have impact on outcomes involving other players"

    Cosmetics have no affect on gameplay. Therefore they can't give you an advantage in any gameplay systems. A collection is purely personal, it doesn't affect other players, therefore it is irrelevant in terms of "winning" in an mmo. Its focus is multi-player, and in this game, there is no paid for advantage to put you ahead of other players.

    Dressing up is single player mode content.

    Nope, not my definition of winning. Just a definition of winning in a role playing game that offers multiple progression routes. Cosmetics and character appearance DO have an effect on your gameplay experience or there wouldn’t be an art team working their ass off to make it look awesome. Having the gameplay mechanic of appearance collection be monetized does make it p2w. Any in-game mechanic that is part of your gameplay experience being paid for beyond of the sub fee and or box costs in an mmo is p2w.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Okay, i've ready every post you have made in this thread.

    Now, acknowledge my arguments that you have not acknowledged in this thread.

    1. You say earning cosmetics is important to a players progression in game, and so buying them is a form of winning. I do not believe this to be the case, because "wining" in the sense of pay to win is directly talking about how spending money gives you an upperhand against another party, making things unfair. If to you, gathering and earning cosmetics is a large part of your experience, they you may spend your time doing these things. Others being able to buy these things does not make any confrontations you have with other players disadvantagous in game. Even more so if the cosmetics in the shop, are not the exact cosmetic items you obtain in game. That makes those cosmetic earned in game still unique, and have that purpose of something to acheive.

    If you do not agree with this, thats fine, but the fact that we have differing opinions in general means if you CAN NOT convince me or other parties, then this argument is void and meaning less.

    Im still wondering why they wont address this point also, as the whole point of this thread is the "p2w" side of things........ but i mean, i guess if this whole thread was pointless it would make sense for you to avoid this
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    A gameplay advantage is not provided through cosmetics, therefore you aren't able to increase your chances of winning in gameplay when paying for cosmetics. Cosmetics are not pay to win, its pay to dress up.

    You are not directly responding to any of my claims so I assume you didn't even read anything, but the title. That's your opinion and that's fine, but I already countered it in the original post.

    I did read it. Your entire argument is "This is my definition of "winning" in a game so I can try to argue that I shouldn't have to support the game by paying for cosmetics features that aren't a factor in gameplay, and don't affect my ability to have impact on outcomes involving other players"

    Cosmetics have no affect on gameplay. Therefore they can't give you an advantage in any gameplay systems. A collection is purely personal, it doesn't affect other players, therefore it is irrelevant in terms of "winning" in an mmo. Its focus is multi-player, and in this game, there is no paid for advantage to put you ahead of other players.

    Dressing up is single player mode content.

    Nope, not my definition of winning. Just a definition of winning in a role playing game that offers multiple progression routes. Cosmetics and character appearance DO have an effect on your gameplay experience or there wouldn’t be an art team working their ass off to make it look awesome. Having the gameplay mechanic of appearance collection be monetized does make it p2w. Any in-game mechanic that is part of your gameplay experience being paid for beyond of the sub fee and or box costs in an mmo is p2w.

    Explain how a cosmetic skin is a gameplay mechanic.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    This whole thread is repeating for a reaction when you were apart of another forum and you decided to be spiteful and toxic on the forum. Creating a thread calling it P2W, even with the definition of p2w not matching cosmetics in this game.

    It doesn't matter how much you try to twist it to suit your own bias you are blatantly lying and being misleading as hell on the forum. Pretty damn disrespectful if you ask me. You aren't answer peoples points you are simply ignoring or try to weasel around in a way you can accept to try to say you are right.

    Outfits in this game are not pay o win they do not give you an advantage, they do not give you money for selling on the market. Stop lying to peoples faces, you think being disrespectful to people is going to create a positive thread because you want to be mad and attack the game?

    Not being spiteful or toxic, just sharing a counter perspective. Not lying or misleading anyone, they are free to make their own conclusions. Not ignoring anyone's points that are relevant, like this post you've just made is again something I should have ignored because it's irrelevant and full of accusations and insults. Not attacking the game at all, just pointing out something I found to be misleading that there is no p2w and if you actually read any part of my perspective, you'd see why I interpret it as p2w. Excited for the game regardless and not mad at all. :D

    You don't get to redefine what p2w is to fit your narrative lmfao.

    Not redefining it to fit a narrative, just offering a counter perspective. I think you are more so limiting what p2w actually is based on the way you like to play roleplaying games.

    It isn't a counter perspective, all you are doing is being ignorant. P2W has to do with power gain in a game where you have an advantage over another in gameplay and can use money to order to more effectively do content.

    You saying someone is limiting pay to win is again, you trying to redefine what pay to win is you are actually doing it within the same post it is pretty sad.


    To say that social influence in an rpg mmo isn't "power gain," then you don't understand rpg mmos. This game is literally going to have Kings and social hierarchy. Again, you are limiting things to your view of how online massively multiplayer roleplaying games should be played.

    @NiKr please help me understand this lmfao. Dressing up is social influence? I don't remember me being in a guild and someone checking out how my pixels looked and that having any influence of pvp or a siege akin to taking a node or territory (akin to as she says being a king).

    I'm not limiting my view I'm telling you that isn't pay to win, you are lying to my face again and making things up like social influence and how you look as if that is going to effective who is mayor. Just admit you are in the wrong and everyone would move on from the p2w.

    Dude who lied to you? It’s not me. “admit I’m wrong” haha, or what? I don’t think I’m wrong and just because you are limiting your perspective of what effects player experience in game doesn’t mean that it’s true.
  • Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    A gameplay advantage is not provided through cosmetics, therefore you aren't able to increase your chances of winning in gameplay when paying for cosmetics. Cosmetics are not pay to win, its pay to dress up.

    You are not directly responding to any of my claims so I assume you didn't even read anything, but the title. That's your opinion and that's fine, but I already countered it in the original post.

    I did read it. Your entire argument is "This is my definition of "winning" in a game so I can try to argue that I shouldn't have to support the game by paying for cosmetics features that aren't a factor in gameplay, and don't affect my ability to have impact on outcomes involving other players"

    Cosmetics have no affect on gameplay. Therefore they can't give you an advantage in any gameplay systems. A collection is purely personal, it doesn't affect other players, therefore it is irrelevant in terms of "winning" in an mmo. Its focus is multi-player, and in this game, there is no paid for advantage to put you ahead of other players.

    Dressing up is single player mode content.

    Nope, not my definition of winning. Just a definition of winning in a role playing game that offers multiple progression routes. Cosmetics and character appearance DO have an effect on your gameplay experience or there wouldn’t be an art team working their ass off to make it look awesome. Having the gameplay mechanic of appearance collection be monetized does make it p2w. Any in-game mechanic that is part of your gameplay experience being paid for beyond of the sub fee and or box costs in an mmo is p2w.

    Explain how a cosmetic skin is a gameplay mechanic.

    No no, you've got the wrong idea. She isnt here to explain herself or have any agreeable views. She just wants to complain everyone keeps repeating themselves for clearification that she wont give.
  • MaiWaifu wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Not sure, I’ve never played a text based mmorg. Initial response is that I think because it’s text based and not visually based with the visual mechanics of character creation and expression having such an impact on the experience of the game that it can’t really be compared.

    I think they'd be equal in terms of visual impact.

    I mean, a red axe is visually different to a blue axe. They're still both just axes. It's just an appearance has been applied using a cash shop.

    Visually I might have preference for one over the other.

    But I don't think I agree that this counts as being pay to win... It's just a visual effect?

    It doesn't change the nature of the item. The only thing it effects is other peoples opinion and perception of it. This is purely subjective whether they think it is better or not.

    Mm I don’t think it’s the same. The color of letters is completely different than the appearance of armor your character is wearing. I think in that text based mmo if your character’s “described armor” could be purchased that would be a better comparison.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr please help me understand this lmfao. Dressing up is social influence? I don't remember me being in a guild and someone checking out how my pixels looked and that having any influence of pvp or a siege akin to taking a node or territory (akin to as she says being a king).
    Iridianny is just combining her own gameplay style with the game's intended gameplay, then applies her view of cosmetics empowering her gameplay and produces the result of "store cosmetics can directly influence the gameplay of the game which is why they're p2w".

    Crow did a good joke about it. For Iridianny, as it seems to me, the visual presentation of her character is the most important part of the game. And any and all activities in the game are (or at least might be) directed at changing/improving said visual. Any other form of gameplay is secondary, which is why the impact of story cosmetics is the biggest on her.

    I'd assume that in her eyes being a king means having a proper attire to go along with the mechanical/gameplay side of literally being a king in Ashes. And if there was a super cool store cosmetic that looked exactly like a king should look like (there was one a few months back btw, the one with the corgi) - then a King player who has said cosmetic is now a "better king" when compared to any other king in the game.

    I'd assume Iridianny claims that you don't know how mmorpgs are played because in her social bubble her pov is highly valued and is seeing as the "right" way to play. And due to said bubble she feels justified to call store cosmetics p2w, because to her social groups they truly are that. I'd assume @Dygz could see her pov much better than any of us cause I think he's quite deep in RP too. He might not agree with her views on the matter, but I'd assume he at least understands where she's coming from.

    But as for anyone outside of said bubble, I'm not sure any of them would give a flying fuck about how the King looks if said King can just make anyone the enemy of the state (though it's the mayor who does that, but let's forget about that for now) and/or make his guild attack some dude on sight. And this was the reason for Crow's joke. The functionality of any given mechanic is in no way hampered by the visual presentation of the one who controls the mechanic, and it could be seen as humorous if you assume (as Iridianny does) that it is.

    Or, well, that's at least what I took away from this particular thread and the other messages I've seen Iridianny write. I might've completely misunderstood her (she said as much several times now sooooo).
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 5
    Nah, dygz is a smart man. There is a reason he hasnt been in this thread.
  • Okay, i've ready every post you have made in this thread.

    Now, acknowledge my arguments that you have not acknowledged in this thread.

    1. You say earning cosmetics is important to a players progression in game, and so buying them is a form of winning. I do not believe this to be the case, because "wining" in the sense of pay to win is directly talking about how spending money gives you an upperhand against another party, making things unfair. If to you, gathering and earning cosmetics is a large part of your experience, they you may spend your time doing these things. Others being able to buy these things does not make any confrontations you have with other players disadvantagous in game. Even more so if the cosmetics in the shop, are not the exact cosmetic items you obtain in game. That makes those cosmetic earned in game still unique, and have that purpose of something to acheive.

    If you do not agree with this, thats fine, but the fact that we have differing opinions in general means if you CAN NOT convince me or other parties, then this argument is void and meaning less.

    Im still wondering why they wont address this point also, as the whole point of this thread is the "p2w" side of things........ but i mean, i guess if this whole thread was pointless it would make sense for you to avoid this

    I didn’t address this because I didn’t see it until now.
    That is the same as saying that people could buy their way to max level and it doesn’t matter. Once you are max level whether you bought it or earned it, doesn’t matter when fighting those other max level players in pvp. But no, then having the “advantage” of not having to earn it bothers you even though it doesn’t necessarily directly affect you.
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