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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Also, i got mentally exhausted with all this and took a break. Thats why i was "here for the vibes" but im still bored at work, so if there is a talk to be had im all for it.
The main problem, and probably the why people are being so unreasonable with you, is because you are being unreasonable back.
When a huge amount of people view P2W in a pvp setting, and you are trying to equate it to you advancing faster in any way shape or form, even against no opponents. This is an argument over 2 different definitions of p2w.
One is p2w vs others, and the other is p2w vs personal objectives.
Can we agree on that? Or is this still disputable?
If they don't add it to the game than it would never be achievable, so your point on it being achievable otherwise is pointless. They could easily just have less content in the game and wrap it up. Instead they are having incentive to add more stuff for people that want it, funds that go to paying people, supporting the company, the game and ensuring the game life span.
You have already gone on record saying you will quit once you get max level and some gear since you are casual. So your subjective opinion cares about short term and not the longevity of the game.
To recognize they are arguing a different definition and still try and argue with your own definition is beyond pointless. You need to be focusing on agreeing on a definition, unless you just want to continue to argue in circles for no reason.
I get what you are trying to do, but they are still going to call it p2w, moving the guidepost isn't going to work on them there won't be a understanding. I'd love to be proven wrong but I feel they are that stubborn and will use p2w even if the context is completely wrong.
This thread would have been dead in one page if they said pay for convenience and tried to push it as that narrative. Which would be fair convenience for getting a outfit you don't need to earn but even than that would be sus.
Based on what they have said you need to earn the right item to be able to use it as a skin, though maybe that applies more to mounts than armor.
And as I said before, not a single cosmetic or even gear piece prevents you from reaching your goal of RPing as someone or participating in the community. And only when you start caring about competitive side of the game, do you start comparing yourself to others on some arbitrary scale of "I'm losing and he's winning". So here's a question to you, why do you deem cosmetics p2w (where a person pays instead of playing to "win" whatever it is you'd deem winnable), while you say that reaching max level or doing smth else by Paying To Win (achieve the goal of max lvl or anything else) shouldn't affect others. Why do cosmetics affect you then? How exactly do other people stop you from reaching your own self-imposed goal?
I'm not an RPer so do please explain how exactly do cosmetics determine who/what/where/when/why I can RP. Cause to me that doesn't make any sense.
Its not just to "move the goal post"
The base of this argument is the terminology. If you dont confront the terminology then there is no argument to be had.
Where we are now it is just yelling opinions at eachother, and ignoring the other person because they arent yelling about what im yelling about.
Yes but for their point of veiw, looking good is something they spend time and effort on, so for you to just buy it isnt fair.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)
So in the case of literally no shop cosmetics ever appealing to your (or your social circle's) RP preferences - would you considering cosmetic store to not be a p2w feature? Cause at that point there'd be no win-state in there for you.
And as we've all shown in these past 7 pages, ain't nobody else cares about that shit.
You not being able to earn a cosmetic does not mean it is pay to win that is now how the term is defined. The cosmetic has no relation into being earned there is no reward or challenge to show you gain it by winning / overcoming a obstacle. It was simply bought not won, hence that can not be pay 2 win even by your own definition.
If you want to argue there can be more things in the game if they don't have a cosmetic shop that can be earned that is a different discussion all together. A think unless you are in the industry and know all the numbers people are mostly just speaking from bias at that point on what they think is the best vrs reality.
I think saying that the OP's thread "holds no real value" is a little disingenuous. If it truly holds no value, the thread would not have close to 200 replies in a couple days.
Visual progression is very important for many people that delve into MMOs. For others, visual progression isn't as important... and that's okay as well! We all have our opinions. If this topic has been talked about numerous times and no one actually cares about cosmetics being "P2W"... just let these type of threads/topics die. But clearly this is an important issue for some and I think is worth engaging in conversation (no matter how many times it has been brought up).
No, it’s still pay to win regardless if I like the cosmetics or not because there is surely someone who does and it’s the principle of me potentially wanting them for the reason I mention before.
Yes, I understand the perspective that if it's in the shop, it's not achievable in game… but that is the issue when there are other cosmetics to earn in game. If a potion to give you a super buff is in the shop and not in the game, but there's other different potions in the game, doesn't change the fact that that potion is in there is pay to win.
Yourself is someone, but if you only accept the competitive definition you do you. I accept both.
Except that if that potion has any performance-related modifiers it is explicitly not in the shop because of the generally agreed upon definition of P2W is being honored by Intrepid. If that potion made you appear like Keith Richards for an hour, it does not meet the generally agreed upon definition of P2W (even if it's your dream to have that costume for a short period of time), and therefore isn't P2W.
That is because regulars will reply to anything when there is time. Also there is visual progression in the game we have said this multiple times. A title saying cosmetic shop is pay to win is click bait as we all know what actual pay to win is and is disingenuous as it gives new people the wrong understanding of the game that might not know that much. Its value is to use the most toxic mmo thing they can use to try to force their way into something they want people to believe. So id agree it doesn't have value unless you are counting being toxic as being value.
Cosmetic Shop is P2W
vrs
Cosmetic shop hampers visual progression and is akin to pay for convenience
One title meant to be more toxic for clicks, another that is a much more fair title akin to the discussion.
Winning is not subjective at all, it is objective by definition.
If you want to claim you are addressing all points being bought up, address this point please.
I'll quote the post in question so you dont have to go looking for it (note: this is what you do if you have addressed something that is then asked again by another poster).
So yeah, since you have claimed that you are addressing all points made, and since this is a point made to address your actual base complaint, I look forward to your reply.
I don't really see much difference between paying for cosmetics and P2W and P4 Convenience.
All of those will have me paying extra for stuff I want, but...
I don't know how people are winning anything with cosmetics.
Cosmetics help me look the way I want my characters to look. I'm not losing if I don't look the way I wish to look. I'm not really winning anything to look the way I wish to look.
There is no appearance competition that I'm aware of. Cosmetics do not provide any advantage that I'm aware of.
So... no... I think I don't really understand how paying for cosmetics helps a player win anything.
You have things in a game to earn you are correct, things on the shop are not earnable by playing the game and is clear you spent money on it and so again its not something you won but something you bought. You should be happy there is stuff to earn in game that is done for people like you to enjoy playing and have your visual progression without spending more than just your sub. A buff and a cosmetic don't relate one allows you to more effectively do content, the other does not change content at all.
Effectively by saying this is pay to win you are active making people disagree with you than understanding your view point since you decided to use a buzzword. If you want to make a difference you need to do it honestly, if you feel you can't because not enough people will agree with you there is not much you can do about it. But going about in a way yelling p2w won't have a proper discussion which means less people will hear it, which means less impact.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/home/leaving?allowTrusted=1&target=https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
Winning is subjective when it’s a personal achievement of earning something.
“Winning in Ashes if creation is not an overarching concept. You do not win the game.
Rather, you win small portions of the game. This may be a fight with another player, a mob, or successfully crafting an item.”… or earning a cosmetic.
I think we agree more than disagree.
I always knew i liked dygz. There were times i struggled with the thought sure..... but i always knew.
Just say that you hate pre-order fomo cosmetic sales and most people here would agree with you, just because it is a rather shifty practice. But when you're trying to argue that potentially the cosmetics store will stand in your (or someone else's) way of RPing as some random character - that's the kind of thing that gets all the argumentative people on a forum to gang up on you.
And I would still like you to explain how exactly do store cosmetics prevent you from RPing as any given character. Or about whether you see store cosmetics as p2w if Intrepid explicitly states they're not.
Those two questions address the "cosmetic collection" and the "visual desires that represent an achieved persona" parts of your argument. Because if you want the absolute full collection of all cosmetics in the game - you've already lost and it'll be impossible to achieve. Otherwise Intrepid's list would become the win-state for your preferred gameplay.
And if it's now purely about the visual desire for some look, then we can completely divorce the RP part of the argument because I do not see how cosmetics prevent RP from happening.
And if we have both the collection and the RP part of the argument cleared, we're just left with a purely distilled and unsubstantiated opinion of "I don't like cosmetic shops". At which point, I'm sure, we could all agree with each other and go smell flowers under rainbows, because we all would love to live in a perfect world where cash shops don't exist in mmos. But, sadly, we live in the reality.