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Cosmetic Shop is P2W

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Comments

  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Look, at the end of the day.... this is the easiest place to farm likes in the forums. Just stop by, leave a reasonable post stating why you disagree with the OP, and boom. 2-5 likes right there.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.

    I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, sorry for that inconvenience to you. Like I said, it's never been my goal to convince PenguinPaladin of this perspective XD

    So basically your whole point of starting a public thread, on a forum, which by definition is public, was for you to have your whole platform and expected no one to take issue with what you're saying?

    And if someone counters the very basis of your premise: Cosmetics = P2W, by indicating that P2W has a concrete definition that you're altering to fit your own premise? You just dismiss it as "You haven't read my post."

    Here's a counter perspective (since you've taken a liking to the concept): they all read your post, found a fault with the very basis of your premise and called it out, tearing your whole argument apart in a single stroke.

    Nope! Just was to share a counter perspective. Sorry I don’t care if I necessarily convince anyone, but I never said I didn’t expect others disagreeing. My post explains how that “very concrete” definition applies to cosmetics.

    Except you're complete twisting the definition. Nobody cares for your personal definition. There a singular truth. Let us all stick to it if we want to have an actual argument.

    Singular truth doesn’t work in our day and age

    Wow
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Singular truth doesn’t work in our day and age, buddy life is full of perspectives.

    "I like what I think"
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr please help me understand this lmfao. Dressing up is social influence? I don't remember me being in a guild and someone checking out how my pixels looked and that having any influence of pvp or a siege akin to taking a node or territory (akin to as she says being a king).
    Iridianny is just combining her own gameplay style with the game's intended gameplay, then applies her view of cosmetics empowering her gameplay and produces the result of "store cosmetics can directly influence the gameplay of the game which is why they're p2w".

    Crow did a good joke about it. For Iridianny, as it seems to me, the visual presentation of her character is the most important part of the game. And any and all activities in the game are (or at least might be) directed at changing/improving said visual. Any other form of gameplay is secondary, which is why the impact of story cosmetics is the biggest on her.

    I'd assume that in her eyes being a king means having a proper attire to go along with the mechanical/gameplay side of literally being a king in Ashes. And if there was a super cool store cosmetic that looked exactly like a king should look like (there was one a few months back btw, the one with the corgi) - then a King player who has said cosmetic is now a "better king" when compared to any other king in the game.

    I'd assume Iridianny claims that you don't know how mmorpgs are played because in her social bubble her pov is highly valued and is seeing as the "right" way to play. And due to said bubble she feels justified to call store cosmetics p2w, because to her social groups they truly are that. I'd assume @Dygz could see her pov much better than any of us cause I think he's quite deep in RP too. He might not agree with her views on the matter, but I'd assume he at least understands where she's coming from.

    But as for anyone outside of said bubble, I'm not sure any of them would give a flying fuck about how the King looks if said King can just make anyone the enemy of the state (though it's the mayor who does that, but let's forget about that for now) and/or make his guild attack some dude on sight. And this was the reason for Crow's joke. The functionality of any given mechanic is in no way hampered by the visual presentation of the one who controls the mechanic, and it could be seen as humorous if you assume (as Iridianny does) that it is.

    Or, well, that's at least what I took away from this particular thread and the other messages I've seen Iridianny write. I might've completely misunderstood her (she said as much several times now sooooo).

    Like you said, it’s a matter of perspective and how you play the game. Notice not once did I ever say that my way of playing is superior or “the right way” but many people have said that to me.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Lets use this video example to explain gameplay vs graphics.

    The gameplay mechanics are the stats of each item.
    The graphics are how each one looks.

    They are not the same
    vcc0pei5dbf9.png

  • Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    Your character... not a mechanic. Trees? Not a mechanic. Pants? Not a mechanic. Water? Not a mechanic. The things those things can do????? Mechanics. So a skin... its only mechanic, is changing what you look like.
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    No I’m not?

    Penguin, the appearance collection is literally a feature and a gameplay mechanic or they wouldn’t have written it into the code and all the gear would look the same.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Look, at the end of the day.... this is the easiest place to farm likes in the forums. Just stop by, leave a reasonable post stating why you disagree with the OP, and boom. 2-5 likes right there.
    xnx623mj1fdv.png
    I want to thank the academy this thread for bringing me to the peak of likeability o:)
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    No I’m not?

    Yes you are.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    Your character... not a mechanic. Trees? Not a mechanic. Pants? Not a mechanic. Water? Not a mechanic. The things those things can do????? Mechanics. So a skin... its only mechanic, is changing what you look like.
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    No I’m not?

    Penguin, the appearance collection is literally a feature and a gameplay mechanic or they wouldn’t have written it into the code and all the gear would look the same.

    Just google the definition of mechanic bro-man-guy. It doesnt mean "exists in game"
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    Your character... not a mechanic. Trees? Not a mechanic. Pants? Not a mechanic. Water? Not a mechanic. The things those things can do????? Mechanics. So a skin... its only mechanic, is changing what you look like.
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    No I’m not?

    Penguin, the appearance collection is literally a feature and a gameplay mechanic or they wouldn’t have written it into the code and all the gear would look the same.

    Tis a feature. Tis not a mechanic. Nothing would change mechanically if you took every cosmetic out and played with polygon models
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Like you said, it’s a matter of perspective and how you play the game. Notice not once did I ever say that my way of playing is superior or “the right way” but many people have said that to me.
    But you've tried bending multiple different commonly and widely accepted definitions of particular things to your own side in order to just even begin to support your argument. While everyone else has been trying to tell you that you can't have your own definition of things that impact other people.
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Penguin, the appearance collection is literally a feature and a gameplay mechanic or they wouldn’t have written it into the code and all the gear would look the same.
    But that's the thing, we don't know if that has been coded into the game. The "collect all things" is a feature that you yourself have imposed on yourself.

    And this was exactly why I asked whether you'd see store cosmetics as p2w if Intrepid explicitly stated that you don't need them to complete your cosmetics collection.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Tis a feature. Tis not a mechanic. Nothing would change mechanically if you took every cosmetic out and played with polygon models
    One thing would change. The game would fucking die. Cause it'd be going against pretty much all common sense conventions of game development. The closest thing to a "polygon-looking fella" of a game is probably OSRS, but I'd say it's just a unicorn in the world of horses.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Tis a feature. Tis not a mechanic. Nothing would change mechanically if you took every cosmetic out and played with polygon models
    One thing would change. The game would fucking die. Cause it'd be going against pretty much all common sense conventions of game development. The closest thing to a "polygon-looking fella" of a game is probably OSRS, but I'd say it's just a unicorn in the world of horses.

    If they took out all cosmetics and replaced everything in game to general shapes and poligons, just to end Iridianny's argument. I would life time subscribe.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Tis a feature. Tis not a mechanic. Nothing would change mechanically if you took every cosmetic out and played with polygon models
    One thing would change. The game would fucking die. Cause it'd be going against pretty much all common sense conventions of game development. The closest thing to a "polygon-looking fella" of a game is probably OSRS, but I'd say it's just a unicorn in the world of horses.

    If they took out all cosmetics and replaced everything in game to general shapes and poligons, just to end Iridianny's argument. I would life time subscribe.

    Wow, I didn’t realize I held so much significance in your life…
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Tis a feature. Tis not a mechanic. Nothing would change mechanically if you took every cosmetic out and played with polygon models
    One thing would change. The game would fucking die. Cause it'd be going against pretty much all common sense conventions of game development. The closest thing to a "polygon-looking fella" of a game is probably OSRS, but I'd say it's just a unicorn in the world of horses.

    I mean there's mine craft, but I agree. My point is distinguishing between gameplay and graphics. Cosmetics are graphics, and graphics don't make you better at the mechanics of a game. Therefore buying cosmetics is not pay to win as they don't provide an advantage mechanically
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 5
    Iridianny wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Tis a feature. Tis not a mechanic. Nothing would change mechanically if you took every cosmetic out and played with polygon models
    One thing would change. The game would fucking die. Cause it'd be going against pretty much all common sense conventions of game development. The closest thing to a "polygon-looking fella" of a game is probably OSRS, but I'd say it's just a unicorn in the world of horses.

    If they took out all cosmetics and replaced everything in game to general shapes and poligons, just to end Iridianny's argument. I would life time subscribe.

    Wow, I didn’t realize I held so much significance in your life…

    I mean, i dont have much to do, and you are quite the passionate woman
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    If you cant tell, ive just been here for the lol's since you've decided not to defend you own points. Dont take it too seriously.
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.

    I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, sorry for that inconvenience to you. Like I said, it's never been my goal to convince PenguinPaladin of this perspective XD

    So basically your whole point of starting a public thread, on a forum, which by definition is public, was for you to have your whole platform and expected no one to take issue with what you're saying?

    And if someone counters the very basis of your premise: Cosmetics = P2W, by indicating that P2W has a concrete definition that you're altering to fit your own premise? You just dismiss it as "You haven't read my post."

    Here's a counter perspective (since you've taken a liking to the concept): they all read your post, found a fault with the very basis of your premise and called it out, tearing your whole argument apart in a single stroke.

    Nope! Just was to share a counter perspective. Sorry I don’t care if I necessarily convince anyone, but I never said I didn’t expect others disagreeing. My post explains how that “very concrete” definition applies to cosmetics.

    Except you're complete twisting the definition. Nobody cares for your personal definition. There a singular truth. Let us all stick to it if we want to have an actual argument.

    Singular truth doesn’t work in our day and age, buddy life is full of perspectives. Now I looked up the definition of pay to win before I posted this and it all seems fairly subjective. Regardless, I based my post off the consensus and how it can be applied.

    Yeah but perspectives are just flawed perceptions of a singular truth. Although I get the feeling you're one of those people who would rant on twitter about "your truth" like that isn't an oxymoron (in your case, with special emphasis on the second half of the word).

    So you're saying you looked up the actual definition and said: Nah, doesn't fit with my view of things, hence it's subjective. Let me go ahead and post my own subjective definition. They'll have to accept my truth or be be told they're not reading or are idiots with nothing to contribute, once they inevitably refute it."
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • IridiannyIridianny Member
    edited August 5
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.

    I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, sorry for that inconvenience to you. Like I said, it's never been my goal to convince PenguinPaladin of this perspective XD

    So basically your whole point of starting a public thread, on a forum, which by definition is public, was for you to have your whole platform and expected no one to take issue with what you're saying?

    And if someone counters the very basis of your premise: Cosmetics = P2W, by indicating that P2W has a concrete definition that you're altering to fit your own premise? You just dismiss it as "You haven't read my post."

    Here's a counter perspective (since you've taken a liking to the concept): they all read your post, found a fault with the very basis of your premise and called it out, tearing your whole argument apart in a single stroke.

    Nope! Just was to share a counter perspective. Sorry I don’t care if I necessarily convince anyone, but I never said I didn’t expect others disagreeing. My post explains how that “very concrete” definition applies to cosmetics.

    Except you're complete twisting the definition. Nobody cares for your personal definition. There a singular truth. Let us all stick to it if we want to have an actual argument.

    Singular truth doesn’t work in our day and age, buddy life is full of perspectives. Now I looked up the definition of pay to win before I posted this and it all seems fairly subjective. Regardless, I based my post off the consensus and how it can be applied.

    Yeah but perspectives are just flawed perceptions of a singular truth. Although I get the feeling you're one of those people who would rant on twitter about "your truth" like that isn't an oxymoron (in your case, with special emphasis on the second half of the word).

    So you're saying you looked up the actual definition and said: Nah, doesn't fit with my view of things, hence it's subjective. Let me go ahead and post my own subjective definition. They'll have to accept my truth or be be told they're not reading or are idiots with nothing to contribute, once they inevitably refute it."

    I don't use social media and I actually do believe in some singular truths it was kind of a joke to the current day n age... but regardless I don't know if I agree with a singular truth being applied to the definition of "pay to win" on a roleplaying game with multiple progression paths and subjective ways to enjoy the game. Seems like because the game's experience is subjective, so would be the p2w for different types of players. I've actually never called anyone an idiot on this thread, and I haven't pushed my perspective by claiming it was the "right" one either. Those are false accusations and things people have done to me, and you seem to conveniently ignore that point. I am simply not changing my mind on the matter when I haven't heard anything that has changed my perspective and if that really bothers you, it's a personal issue.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.

    I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, sorry for that inconvenience to you. Like I said, it's never been my goal to convince PenguinPaladin of this perspective XD

    So basically your whole point of starting a public thread, on a forum, which by definition is public, was for you to have your whole platform and expected no one to take issue with what you're saying?

    And if someone counters the very basis of your premise: Cosmetics = P2W, by indicating that P2W has a concrete definition that you're altering to fit your own premise? You just dismiss it as "You haven't read my post."

    Here's a counter perspective (since you've taken a liking to the concept): they all read your post, found a fault with the very basis of your premise and called it out, tearing your whole argument apart in a single stroke.

    Nope! Just was to share a counter perspective. Sorry I don’t care if I necessarily convince anyone, but I never said I didn’t expect others disagreeing. My post explains how that “very concrete” definition applies to cosmetics.

    Except you're complete twisting the definition. Nobody cares for your personal definition. There a singular truth. Let us all stick to it if we want to have an actual argument.

    Singular truth doesn’t work in our day and age, buddy life is full of perspectives. Now I looked up the definition of pay to win before I posted this and it all seems fairly subjective. Regardless, I based my post off the consensus and how it can be applied.

    Yeah but perspectives are just flawed perceptions of a singular truth. Although I get the feeling you're one of those people who would rant on twitter about "your truth" like that isn't an oxymoron (in your case, with special emphasis on the second half of the word).

    So you're saying you looked up the actual definition and said: Nah, doesn't fit with my view of things, hence it's subjective. Let me go ahead and post my own subjective definition. They'll have to accept my truth or be be told they're not reading or are idiots with nothing to contribute, once they inevitably refute it."

    I don't use social media and I actually do believe in some singular truths it was kind of a joke to the current day n age... but regardless I don't know if I agree with a singular truth being applied to the definition of "pay to win" on a roleplaying game with multiple progression paths and subjective ways to enjoy the game. Seems like because the game's experience is subjective, so would be the p2w for different types of players. I've actually never called anyone an idiot on this thread, and I haven't pushed my perspective by claiming it was the "right" one either. Those are false accusations and things people have done to me, and you seem to conveniently ignore that point. I am simply not changing my mind on the matter when I haven't heard anything that has changed my perspective and if that really bothers you, it's a personal issue.

    Yeah man. We're all just here for the vibes.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Yeah man. We're all just here for the vibes.
    And the free food likes! Don't forget about the free likes!
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Yeah man. We're all just here for the vibes.
    And the free food likes! Don't forget about the free likes!

    Where the hell are my likes? The OP still hasn't made a valid argument against my comments on mechanics.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dolyem wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Yeah man. We're all just here for the vibes.
    And the free food likes! Don't forget about the free likes!

    Where the hell are my likes? The OP still hasn't made a valid argument against my comments on mechanics.

    What your lacking is word amount it would seem. Ive been looking through my posts in the thread, and people seem to be liking the posts that are at least a paragraph or so. You gotta put the effort in if you want those fake points
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Where the hell are my likes? The OP still hasn't made a valid argument against my comments on mechanics.
    Your life's a mechanic! Hah! Gotteeeem! B)
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    edited August 5
    Dolyem wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Yeah man. We're all just here for the vibes.
    And the free food likes! Don't forget about the free likes!

    Where the hell are my likes? The OP still hasn't made a valid argument against my comments on mechanics.

    What your lacking is word amount it would seem. Ive been looking through my posts in the thread, and people seem to be liking the posts that are at least a paragraph or so. You gotta put the effort in if you want those fake points

    But this argument doesn't need that much effort to show it is wrong. ☹️

    Hell even if we played devils advocate and pretended it was correct, it would still be irrelevant due to cosmetics being purchasable for the last couple years.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Singular truth doesn’t work in our day and age

    Translated : I can change any definition to what I want so I'm right since it is more important to be ignorant than say they are right.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Where the hell are my likes? The OP still hasn't made a valid argument against my comments on mechanics.
    Your life's a mechanic! Hah! Gotteeeem! B)

    Gahd damn, ya got meh
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 5
    So to try and be reasonable and a bit more on actual topic.

    I dont mind you opinion, that the shops bad. I share that thought.

    I understand your stance against transmog, i share it.

    I dont see cosmetic skins as p2w under any circumstances. And other than them being a part of the game you find important, you havnt explained to me how they give someone an upperhand over you.

    I find it hard to talk with you with how standoffish you seem to be, and your unwillingness to actually discuss your points, or clearify things. Your saying, ive said it before go find it, in a forum with countless threads is in no means friendly or helpful. And after being ran in circles for a while by your arguments, reason is easily lost. But looking at your other posts in general, the forums are very hostile to you.

    Im not going to say you do or do not deserve hostility, because i just glimpsed through a few posts... but the way most people here seem to phrase their thoughts under some circumstances is pretty gross. So im going to apologize on my part, but im also going to empathize, you are very standoffish, and unreasonable now, to the point its very hard to discuss things.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    What a actual p2w cosmetic is.....
  • IridiannyIridianny Member
    edited August 5
    So to try and be reasonable and a bit more on actual topic.

    I dont mind you opinion, that the shops bad. I share that thought.

    I understand your stance against transmog, i share it.

    I dont see cosmetic skins as p2w under any circumstances. And other than them being a part of the game you find important, you havnt explained to me how they give someone an upperhand over you.

    I find it hard to talk with you with how standoffish you seem to be, and your unwillingness to actually discuss your points, or clearify things. Your saying, ive said it before go find it, in a forum with countless threads is in no means friendly or helpful. And after being ran in circles for a while by your arguments, reason is easily lost. But looking at your other posts in general, the forums are very hostile to you.

    Im not going to say you do or do not deserve hostility, because i just glimpsed through a few posts... but the way most people here seem to phrase their thoughts under some circumstances is pretty gross. So im going to apologize on my part, but im also going to empathize, you are very standoffish, and unreasonable now, to the point its very hard to discuss things.

    I thought you weren't even here for discussion just "the vibes"? I am glad we have some mutual ground, many people have agreed that selling cosmetics is "evil" even though they concede them to be a "necessary evil."
    As for upperhand, I am not even sure what that means given there are multiple progression paths and ways to play a roleplaying game. A point that has been consistently ignored. I am not a super competitive person, so this idea of the upperhand doesn't really affect me nor was it my point. As I said, paying for part of the gameplay that otherwise could be achievable in game is p2w. Again, a matter of perspective that competition is what fuels you in an rpg where as for some it's roleplaying in a community, and for others it's adventuring in a fantasy world, etc.
    Honestly, if people pay for max level it doesn't really affect how other individuals play the game themselves, there will always be max levels ahead of you unless you are the first... and by that point it wont matter how those who are also max level alongside you got there...
    So, I think most people are bothered by that idea simply because it is paying extra to not play the game. However, really those people just play the game differently than others. They don't see questing as the game, but rather end game content. (not that I agree with pay for max level just to clarify)
    & I have discussed and clarified so much, I really don't see my "unwillingness." Unless you are referring to me saying that I don't care to convince you, because that's still true. And yes, I am perhaps standoffish for the reason that I don't cower down when, as you can see, many people have been very hostile, aggressive, and sometimes just verbally abusive for me simply sharing opinions and ideas. I appreciate your apology.
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