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Cosmetic Shop is P2W

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Comments

  • Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 5
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Okay, i've ready every post you have made in this thread.

    Now, acknowledge my arguments that you have not acknowledged in this thread.

    1. You say earning cosmetics is important to a players progression in game, and so buying them is a form of winning. I do not believe this to be the case, because "wining" in the sense of pay to win is directly talking about how spending money gives you an upperhand against another party, making things unfair. If to you, gathering and earning cosmetics is a large part of your experience, they you may spend your time doing these things. Others being able to buy these things does not make any confrontations you have with other players disadvantagous in game. Even more so if the cosmetics in the shop, are not the exact cosmetic items you obtain in game. That makes those cosmetic earned in game still unique, and have that purpose of something to acheive.

    If you do not agree with this, thats fine, but the fact that we have differing opinions in general means if you CAN NOT convince me or other parties, then this argument is void and meaning less.

    Im still wondering why they wont address this point also, as the whole point of this thread is the "p2w" side of things........ but i mean, i guess if this whole thread was pointless it would make sense for you to avoid this

    I didn’t address this because I didn’t see it until now.
    That is the same as saying that people could buy their way to max level and it doesn’t matter. Once you are max level whether you bought it or earned it, doesn’t matter when fighting those other max level players in pvp. But no, then having the “advantage” of not having to earn it bothers you even though it doesn’t necessarily directly affect you.

    Wrong. Your level effects your stats and your cosmetics dont. I dont care if a lvl 1 has the very coolest pants on. Their pants dont effect my interactions with them
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    By definition it is not. It is an influence on appearance(graphics) not action(gameplay)
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.

    I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, sorry for that inconvenience to you. Like I said, it's never been my goal to convince PenguinPaladin of this perspective XD

    So basically your whole point of starting a public thread, on a forum, which by definition is public, was for you to have your whole platform and expected no one to take issue with what you're saying?

    And if someone counters the very basis of your premise: Cosmetics = P2W, by indicating that P2W has a concrete definition that you're altering to fit your own premise? You just dismiss it as "You haven't read my post."

    Here's a counter perspective (since you've taken a liking to the concept): they all read your post, found a fault with the very basis of your premise and called it out, tearing your whole argument apart in a single stroke.
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • MaiWaifuMaiWaifu Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mm I don’t think it’s the same. The color of letters is completely different than the appearance of armor your character is wearing. I think in that text based mmo if your character’s “described armor” could be purchased that would be a better comparison.

    Yeah that might be a better comparison if they did described armour. I don't know of any that do that though.

    I've only ever seen purchases for different coloured text / titles. Usually as a one-off payment to apply.

    Would you also consider it p2w given what little effect it has?

    I'm just trying to gauge the scope of what counts as p2w since cosmetics can be extremely minor or might be only short durations like Vindictus or other Korean MMORPGs with 7-day limited costumes.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    @NiKr - this slides into one of my favorite words in English

    Verisimilitude (noun)
    1. the appearance or semblance of truth; genuineness; authenticity: The play lacked verisimilitude
    2. something, as an assertion, having merely the appearance of truth

    I could segue into how Iridianny's counterpoint mirrors the social behaviors in something like Instagram, but that's a whole other OT thread.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    Okay, i've ready every post you have made in this thread.

    Now, acknowledge my arguments that you have not acknowledged in this thread.

    1. You say earning cosmetics is important to a players progression in game, and so buying them is a form of winning. I do not believe this to be the case, because "wining" in the sense of pay to win is directly talking about how spending money gives you an upperhand against another party, making things unfair. If to you, gathering and earning cosmetics is a large part of your experience, they you may spend your time doing these things. Others being able to buy these things does not make any confrontations you have with other players disadvantagous in game. Even more so if the cosmetics in the shop, are not the exact cosmetic items you obtain in game. That makes those cosmetic earned in game still unique, and have that purpose of something to acheive.

    If you do not agree with this, thats fine, but the fact that we have differing opinions in general means if you CAN NOT convince me or other parties, then this argument is void and meaning less.

    Im still wondering why they wont address this point also, as the whole point of this thread is the "p2w" side of things........ but i mean, i guess if this whole thread was pointless it would make sense for you to avoid this

    I didn’t address this because I didn’t see it until now.
    That is the same as saying that people could buy their way to max level and it doesn’t matter. Once you are max level whether you bought it or earned it, doesn’t matter when fighting those other max level players in pvp. But no, then having the “advantage” of not having to earn it bothers you even though it doesn’t necessarily directly affect you.

    Wrong. Your level effects your stats and your cosmetics dont. I dont care if a lvl 1 has the very coolest pants on. Their pants dont effect my interactions with them

    In a social game, it does. You are projecting your perspective of only caring about numbers onto everyone else. Actually a lot of people talk to others based on their appearances irl and in game.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 5
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Okay, i've ready every post you have made in this thread.

    Now, acknowledge my arguments that you have not acknowledged in this thread.

    1. You say earning cosmetics is important to a players progression in game, and so buying them is a form of winning. I do not believe this to be the case, because "wining" in the sense of pay to win is directly talking about how spending money gives you an upperhand against another party, making things unfair. If to you, gathering and earning cosmetics is a large part of your experience, they you may spend your time doing these things. Others being able to buy these things does not make any confrontations you have with other players disadvantagous in game. Even more so if the cosmetics in the shop, are not the exact cosmetic items you obtain in game. That makes those cosmetic earned in game still unique, and have that purpose of something to acheive.

    If you do not agree with this, thats fine, but the fact that we have differing opinions in general means if you CAN NOT convince me or other parties, then this argument is void and meaning less.

    Im still wondering why they wont address this point also, as the whole point of this thread is the "p2w" side of things........ but i mean, i guess if this whole thread was pointless it would make sense for you to avoid this

    I didn’t address this because I didn’t see it until now.
    That is the same as saying that people could buy their way to max level and it doesn’t matter. Once you are max level whether you bought it or earned it, doesn’t matter when fighting those other max level players in pvp. But no, then having the “advantage” of not having to earn it bothers you even though it doesn’t necessarily directly affect you.

    Wrong. Your level effects your stats and your cosmetics dont. I dont care if a lvl 1 has the very coolest pants on. Their pants dont effect my interactions with them

    In a social game, it does. You are projecting your perspective of only caring about numbers onto everyone else. Actually a lot of people talk to others based on their appearances irl and in game.

    Name one aspect of the game where someone having cooler pants than me causes me to "lose" and them to "win"
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 5
    With all of your arguments i would assume a transmog system in it self destroys the very foundatiom of the game in your eyes
  • Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.

    I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, sorry for that inconvenience to you. Like I said, it's never been my goal to convince PenguinPaladin of this perspective XD

    So basically your whole point of starting a public thread, on a forum, which by definition is public, was for you to have your whole platform and expected no one to take issue with what you're saying?

    And if someone counters the very basis of your premise: Cosmetics = P2W, by indicating that P2W has a concrete definition that you're altering to fit your own premise? You just dismiss it as "You haven't read my post."

    Here's a counter perspective (since you've taken a liking to the concept): they all read your post, found a fault with the very basis of your premise and called it out, tearing your whole argument apart in a single stroke.

    Nope! Just was to share a counter perspective. Sorry I don’t care if I necessarily convince anyone, but I never said I didn’t expect others disagreeing. My post explains how that “very concrete” definition applies to cosmetics.
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Okay, i've ready every post you have made in this thread.

    Now, acknowledge my arguments that you have not acknowledged in this thread.

    1. You say earning cosmetics is important to a players progression in game, and so buying them is a form of winning. I do not believe this to be the case, because "wining" in the sense of pay to win is directly talking about how spending money gives you an upperhand against another party, making things unfair. If to you, gathering and earning cosmetics is a large part of your experience, they you may spend your time doing these things. Others being able to buy these things does not make any confrontations you have with other players disadvantagous in game. Even more so if the cosmetics in the shop, are not the exact cosmetic items you obtain in game. That makes those cosmetic earned in game still unique, and have that purpose of something to acheive.

    If you do not agree with this, thats fine, but the fact that we have differing opinions in general means if you CAN NOT convince me or other parties, then this argument is void and meaning less.

    Im still wondering why they wont address this point also, as the whole point of this thread is the "p2w" side of things........ but i mean, i guess if this whole thread was pointless it would make sense for you to avoid this

    I didn’t address this because I didn’t see it until now.
    That is the same as saying that people could buy their way to max level and it doesn’t matter. Once you are max level whether you bought it or earned it, doesn’t matter when fighting those other max level players in pvp. But no, then having the “advantage” of not having to earn it bothers you even though it doesn’t necessarily directly affect you.

    Wrong. Your level effects your stats and your cosmetics dont. I dont care if a lvl 1 has the very coolest pants on. Their pants dont effect my interactions with them

    In a social game, it does. You are projecting your perspective of only caring about numbers onto everyone else. Actually a lot of people talk to others based on their appearances irl and in game.

    Name one aspect of the game where someone having cooler pants than me causes me to "lose" and them to "win"

    Uhm like I said the sense of “winning” is subjective.
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Okay, i've ready every post you have made in this thread.

    Now, acknowledge my arguments that you have not acknowledged in this thread.

    1. You say earning cosmetics is important to a players progression in game, and so buying them is a form of winning. I do not believe this to be the case, because "wining" in the sense of pay to win is directly talking about how spending money gives you an upperhand against another party, making things unfair. If to you, gathering and earning cosmetics is a large part of your experience, they you may spend your time doing these things. Others being able to buy these things does not make any confrontations you have with other players disadvantagous in game. Even more so if the cosmetics in the shop, are not the exact cosmetic items you obtain in game. That makes those cosmetic earned in game still unique, and have that purpose of something to acheive.

    If you do not agree with this, thats fine, but the fact that we have differing opinions in general means if you CAN NOT convince me or other parties, then this argument is void and meaning less.

    Im still wondering why they wont address this point also, as the whole point of this thread is the "p2w" side of things........ but i mean, i guess if this whole thread was pointless it would make sense for you to avoid this

    I didn’t address this because I didn’t see it until now.
    That is the same as saying that people could buy their way to max level and it doesn’t matter. Once you are max level whether you bought it or earned it, doesn’t matter when fighting those other max level players in pvp. But no, then having the “advantage” of not having to earn it bothers you even though it doesn’t necessarily directly affect you.

    Wrong. Your level effects your stats and your cosmetics dont. I dont care if a lvl 1 has the very coolest pants on. Their pants dont effect my interactions with them

    In a social game, it does. You are projecting your perspective of only caring about numbers onto everyone else. Actually a lot of people talk to others based on their appearances irl and in game.

    Oh hello mr. Kettle, meet mr. Pot, he says you're black.
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    Your character... not a mechanic. Trees? Not a mechanic. Pants? Not a mechanic. Water? Not a mechanic. The things those things can do????? Mechanics. So a skin... its only mechanic, is changing what you look like.
  • MaiWaifu wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Mm I don’t think it’s the same. The color of letters is completely different than the appearance of armor your character is wearing. I think in that text based mmo if your character’s “described armor” could be purchased that would be a better comparison.

    Yeah that might be a better comparison if they did described armour. I don't know of any that do that though.

    I've only ever seen purchases for different coloured text / titles. Usually as a one-off payment to apply.

    Would you also consider it p2w given what little effect it has?

    I'm just trying to gauge the scope of what counts as p2w since cosmetics can be extremely minor or might be only short durations like Vindictus or other Korean MMORPGs with 7-day limited costumes.

    I don’t know for sure. I’d have to play the game and be in the community to know what affect text color has.
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.

    I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, sorry for that inconvenience to you. Like I said, it's never been my goal to convince PenguinPaladin of this perspective XD

    So basically your whole point of starting a public thread, on a forum, which by definition is public, was for you to have your whole platform and expected no one to take issue with what you're saying?

    And if someone counters the very basis of your premise: Cosmetics = P2W, by indicating that P2W has a concrete definition that you're altering to fit your own premise? You just dismiss it as "You haven't read my post."

    Here's a counter perspective (since you've taken a liking to the concept): they all read your post, found a fault with the very basis of your premise and called it out, tearing your whole argument apart in a single stroke.

    Nope! Just was to share a counter perspective. Sorry I don’t care if I necessarily convince anyone, but I never said I didn’t expect others disagreeing. My post explains how that “very concrete” definition applies to cosmetics.

    Except you're complete twisting the definition. Nobody cares for your personal definition. There a singular truth. Let us all stick to it if we want to have an actual argument.
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Okay, i've ready every post you have made in this thread.

    Now, acknowledge my arguments that you have not acknowledged in this thread.

    1. You say earning cosmetics is important to a players progression in game, and so buying them is a form of winning. I do not believe this to be the case, because "wining" in the sense of pay to win is directly talking about how spending money gives you an upperhand against another party, making things unfair. If to you, gathering and earning cosmetics is a large part of your experience, they you may spend your time doing these things. Others being able to buy these things does not make any confrontations you have with other players disadvantagous in game. Even more so if the cosmetics in the shop, are not the exact cosmetic items you obtain in game. That makes those cosmetic earned in game still unique, and have that purpose of something to acheive.

    If you do not agree with this, thats fine, but the fact that we have differing opinions in general means if you CAN NOT convince me or other parties, then this argument is void and meaning less.

    Im still wondering why they wont address this point also, as the whole point of this thread is the "p2w" side of things........ but i mean, i guess if this whole thread was pointless it would make sense for you to avoid this

    I didn’t address this because I didn’t see it until now.
    That is the same as saying that people could buy their way to max level and it doesn’t matter. Once you are max level whether you bought it or earned it, doesn’t matter when fighting those other max level players in pvp. But no, then having the “advantage” of not having to earn it bothers you even though it doesn’t necessarily directly affect you.

    Wrong. Your level effects your stats and your cosmetics dont. I dont care if a lvl 1 has the very coolest pants on. Their pants dont effect my interactions with them

    In a social game, it does. You are projecting your perspective of only caring about numbers onto everyone else. Actually a lot of people talk to others based on their appearances irl and in game.

    Name one aspect of the game where someone having cooler pants than me causes me to "lose" and them to "win"

    Uhm like I said the sense of “winning” is subjective.

    -loses an arena match- ha. You may have bested me in battle. But those pants with that helmet? You have lost the war!
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    No I’m not?
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Uh what? I am a little confused. Anything that’s achievable in game is not p2w, no, if that’s what you’re asking.
    I meant that what if Intrepid would have a direct nomenclature of "these are the "true" cosmetics and if you collect them all through in-game means - you've won the "collect all cosmetics in the game" part of the game". Would you see store cosmetics as p2w then? Because at that point you'd be going directly against game's own definition of "winnable part of the game".
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Yea they have p2w, and it makes me dislike the game and the community disliked it so much so that they released multiple versions of their classic game before any p2w was added, from yes 18 years ago.
    I mean, they released it because they realized there was money in it. They themselves thought it'd be dumb to release that version because it was "inferior" to the current-at-the-time one. And afaik most people liked vanilla because of its overall gameplay and not just because the p2w was gone. Though, funny thing is, Blizz then went on to introduce a direct p2w (though some see it as p4c) feature in the form of level skip, and afaik quite a lot of people bought it, which again proves that the majority of players doesn't really care for p2w side of the game. They only care about the gameplay.
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Almost all end game of mmos is appearance and gear collection. Even someone who thinks they don’t care about appearances and just care about numbers still decide what is the “best” piece of gear, care about gear, admire gear, and utilize transmog features. Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.
    As that someone (who care about numbers) I can fully tell you that I never cared for how I looked. I only cared about the numbers. If a piece of gear that looked like a piece of shit gave me better stats - I'd wear that piece of shit proudly because everyone around me would know that I have the better stats.

    And I have despised and hated transmog for as long as I've known of its existence, exactly because it stands in the way of me showing my stats rather than some piece of pixelclump on my character.

    And as for "everyone playing dress up", yes, everyone does because that's how the games have been for the past forever. Not a single game dared to go completely against the industry standard of "the best gameplay gear should also look the best" (well outside of the sleezy games that want to suck you dry of your irl money).

    And you know which parallel one could draw from that? The parallel of Intrepid not wanting to go against the entire industry that has decided to sell cosmetics. Now they obviously have to stick true to their promise of "in-game best gear will look better than any store cosmetic", but we can only know if they did on release, so arguing about that particular point would be useless rn.
  • With all of your arguments i would assume a transmog system in it self destroys the very foundatiom of the game in your eyes

    Nah not if they are all achievable through the in game mechanic of appearance collection not purchasable. Though I don’t like transmog, that’s for different reasons.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Okay, i've ready every post you have made in this thread.

    Now, acknowledge my arguments that you have not acknowledged in this thread.

    1. You say earning cosmetics is important to a players progression in game, and so buying them is a form of winning. I do not believe this to be the case, because "wining" in the sense of pay to win is directly talking about how spending money gives you an upperhand against another party, making things unfair. If to you, gathering and earning cosmetics is a large part of your experience, they you may spend your time doing these things. Others being able to buy these things does not make any confrontations you have with other players disadvantagous in game. Even more so if the cosmetics in the shop, are not the exact cosmetic items you obtain in game. That makes those cosmetic earned in game still unique, and have that purpose of something to acheive.

    If you do not agree with this, thats fine, but the fact that we have differing opinions in general means if you CAN NOT convince me or other parties, then this argument is void and meaning less.

    Im still wondering why they wont address this point also, as the whole point of this thread is the "p2w" side of things........ but i mean, i guess if this whole thread was pointless it would make sense for you to avoid this

    I didn’t address this because I didn’t see it until now.
    That is the same as saying that people could buy their way to max level and it doesn’t matter. Once you are max level whether you bought it or earned it, doesn’t matter when fighting those other max level players in pvp. But no, then having the “advantage” of not having to earn it bothers you even though it doesn’t necessarily directly affect you.

    Wrong. Your level effects your stats and your cosmetics dont. I dont care if a lvl 1 has the very coolest pants on. Their pants dont effect my interactions with them

    In a social game, it does. You are projecting your perspective of only caring about numbers onto everyone else. Actually a lot of people talk to others based on their appearances irl and in game.

    Name one aspect of the game where someone having cooler pants than me causes me to "lose" and them to "win"

    Uhm like I said the sense of “winning” is subjective.

    P2w has nothing to do with the "*****"*"*"*"**"sense"**"***"*"**"*" of wining. Its about one player haveing an upperhand on another player. And the look of ones gear, does not cause that.... unless you have situations you can share woth me that i dont know about.... i know in a game like club penguin cosmetics were everything... but i think those types of situations would be silly to bring up here.
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    Your character... not a mechanic. Trees? Not a mechanic. Pants? Not a mechanic. Water? Not a mechanic. The things those things can do????? Mechanics. So a skin... its only mechanic, is changing what you look like.

    Your character is the game. See the original post for the explanation of this.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    Your character... not a mechanic. Trees? Not a mechanic. Pants? Not a mechanic. Water? Not a mechanic. The things those things can do????? Mechanics. So a skin... its only mechanic, is changing what you look like.
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    No I’m not?

  • MaiWaifuMaiWaifu Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    NiKr wrote: »
    As that someone (who care about numbers) I can fully tell you that I never cared for how I looked. I only cared about the numbers. If a piece of gear that looked like a piece of shit gave me better stats - I'd wear that piece of shit proudly because everyone around me would know that I have the better stats.

    Pretty sure 99% of people play RPGs like this.



  • DolyemDolyem Member
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    By definition it is not. It is an influence on appearance(graphics) not action(gameplay)

    Ganna quote this again because I think you passed over it.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 5
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Everyone is playing the dress up game when they play a mmo role playing game whether they like it or not.

    Sure, but it doesn't provide any gameplay advantage.
    What don’t you understand about any part of the playing game is gameplay?


    Your definition is not the definition of gameplay. Here you go. Now explain how cosmetics"graphics" are relative to gameplay.

    game·play
    /ˈɡāmplā/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    the tactical aspects of a video game, such as its plot and the way it is played, as distinct from the graphics and sound effects.

    Appearance collection and character expression or “dress up” is not just graphics it is an actual gameplay mechanic.

    It is something to do, its not a mechanic. The mechanic would be how you equip or use said items.

    … I disagree. If it wasn’t a mechanic why would they bother make so many variants of skins and potentially a transmog system to apply said skins? Collection is a game mechanic they are profiting off of.

    You are now disregarding the DEFINITION of mechanic............

    Your character... not a mechanic. Trees? Not a mechanic. Pants? Not a mechanic. Water? Not a mechanic. The things those things can do????? Mechanics. So a skin... its only mechanic, is changing what you look like.

    Your character is the game. See the original post for the explanation of this.

    Man.... Im starting to realize im the stupid one for even trying to reason with you.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    MaiWaifu wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    As that someone (who care about numbers) I can fully tell you that I never cared for how I looked. I only cared about the numbers. If a piece of gear that looked like a piece of shit gave me better stats - I'd wear that piece of shit proudly because everyone around me would know that I have the better stats.

    Pretty sure 99% of people play RPGs like this.



    Lets use this video example to explain gameplay vs graphics.

    The gameplay mechanics are the stats of each item.
    The graphics are how each one looks.

    They are not the same
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    I accept and understand how, seeing other people in game with bought cosmetics "effects you in game" however, i dont see this argument having much weight.

    That's your opinion and that's fine, I am not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.
    I also accept there are other methods, like higher sub fees or other such ideas. But i also beleive a cosmetic shop would simply blow that potential revenue out of the water ..

    I understand that the revenue might be higher, but I believe it's more important to long term success how it will negatively affect gameplay experience and there are more reasons that you can read in other posts I've made. For this discussion, I just think it's p2w.

    Your response to both of these points....

    "Im not saying it "has much weight" just offering a counter perspective.

    You've become submissive here, not trying to defend your point or further explain your point. I can not respond, leaving things here you have pretty much agreed or at least stopped arguing, that cosmetics hold higher impact in game feel.

    And "i understand it may be higher, but long term..."

    no games last "long term" any more. Most games lose nearly 90% of their peak in less than a year. Immediate great success, if more advantageous to ashes while it has its peak of players. Than gradual Success. To design around gradual success in todays market it throwing away over 70% of your profit overall.

    I have defended my point to the furthest extend I can. If you have any specific questions about it, I can answer them, but it's not my goal to convince you. And alright, I guess the most popular mmo ever, WoW isn't still releasing expansions? I said it would be more beneficial for the long term, but I don't know for sure if that's Intrepid's goals or not. Do you?

    The, ive said it elsewhere defence doesnt matter unfortunately. You started this thread. Argue your point on this thread, or conceed. Im not reading every word on the internet as a whole to try and get your side of the story.

    I don't have to do anything you tell me to do, sorry for that inconvenience to you. Like I said, it's never been my goal to convince PenguinPaladin of this perspective XD

    So basically your whole point of starting a public thread, on a forum, which by definition is public, was for you to have your whole platform and expected no one to take issue with what you're saying?

    And if someone counters the very basis of your premise: Cosmetics = P2W, by indicating that P2W has a concrete definition that you're altering to fit your own premise? You just dismiss it as "You haven't read my post."

    Here's a counter perspective (since you've taken a liking to the concept): they all read your post, found a fault with the very basis of your premise and called it out, tearing your whole argument apart in a single stroke.

    Nope! Just was to share a counter perspective. Sorry I don’t care if I necessarily convince anyone, but I never said I didn’t expect others disagreeing. My post explains how that “very concrete” definition applies to cosmetics.

    Except you're complete twisting the definition. Nobody cares for your personal definition. There a singular truth. Let us all stick to it if we want to have an actual argument.

    Singular truth doesn’t work in our day and age, buddy life is full of perspectives. Now I looked up the definition of pay to win before I posted this and it all seems fairly subjective. Regardless, I based my post off the consensus and how it can be applied.
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