Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!

Cosmetic Shop is P2W

1568101117

Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    When a huge amount of people view P2W in a pvp setting, and you are trying to equate it to you advancing faster in any way shape or form, even against no opponents. This is an argument over 2 different definitions of p2w.

    One is p2w vs others, and the other is p2w vs personal objectives.
    I mean... cosmetics are not going to help me win PvE battles.
    Cosmetics are not going to help me become a Monarch.
    Cosmetics are not going to help me win a Mayorship. Even in a Scientific Node, I don't think cosmetics will be the deciding factor in citizen voting.
    Cosmetics are not going to help me Craft better.
    Cosmetic will not help me advance faster in Social Orgs or Religions

    So...where will cosmetics help advance faster???
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Samson wrote: »
    I think saying that the OP's thread "holds no real value" is a little disingenuous. If it truly holds no value, the thread would not have close to 200 replies in a couple days.

    If this topic has been talked about numerous times and no one actually cares about cosmetics being "P2W"... just let these type of threads/topics die. But clearly this is an important issue for some and I think is worth engaging in conversation (no matter how many times it has been brought up).
    Nah, people just like to argue pointless shit cause everyone's bored :) If people didn't like arguing we all could've just disagreed with Iridianny and moved on, but alas we're a very argumentative bunch.
    Iridianny wrote: »
    No, it’s still pay to win regardless if I like the cosmetics or not because there is surely someone who does and it’s the principle of me potentially wanting them for the reason I mention before.
    I mean, at this point you're just against the potentiality of things. And imo that's as bad of a take as saying that Ashes will definitely become a p2w game just because all the other games have become one. Is that possible? Of course. Is there a point of arguing about that before it actually happens? I'm not so sure, because I don't think you're Don Quixote.

    Just say that you hate pre-order fomo cosmetic sales and most people here would agree with you, just because it is a rather shifty practice. But when you're trying to argue that potentially the cosmetics store will stand in your (or someone else's) way of RPing as some random character - that's the kind of thing that gets all the argumentative people on a forum to gang up on you.

    And I would still like you to explain how exactly do store cosmetics prevent you from RPing as any given character. Or about whether you see store cosmetics as p2w if Intrepid explicitly states they're not.

    Those two questions address the "cosmetic collection" and the "visual desires that represent an achieved persona" parts of your argument. Because if you want the absolute full collection of all cosmetics in the game - you've already lost and it'll be impossible to achieve. Otherwise Intrepid's list would become the win-state for your preferred gameplay.

    And if it's now purely about the visual desire for some look, then we can completely divorce the RP part of the argument because I do not see how cosmetics prevent RP from happening.

    And if we have both the collection and the RP part of the argument cleared, we're just left with a purely distilled and unsubstantiated opinion of "I don't like cosmetic shops". At which point, I'm sure, we could all agree with each other and go smell flowers under rainbows, because we all would love to live in a perfect world where cash shops don't exist in mmos. But, sadly, we live in the reality.

    I mean if we are going to discuss how its rp breaking, i think the character creator itself is rather immersion breaking itself. Irl I didnt "create my features" or "chose my race"
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Noaani

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/home/leaving?allowTrusted=1&target=https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
    Winning is subjective when it’s a personal achievement of earning something.

    “Winning in Ashes if creation is not an overarching concept. You do not win the game.

    Rather, you win small portions of the game. This may be a fight with another player, a mob, or successfully crafting an item.”… or earning a cosmetic.
    I think we agree more than disagree.
    So, here's the problem with that.

    This form of the word "win" has been out of use (or generally out of use) for half a decade.

    The sample sentence given is "striving to win a living from the sterile soil", whereas for the last 50 years or so, that sentence would be written as "striving to earn a living from the sterile soil".

    At best, you are attempting to apply an outdated definition to a word that everyone else has an understanding of its current meaning.

    Even if we accept that this specific definition is current, when writing a sentence you only use one meaning of a word, not all meanings. As such, if we assume Intrepid mean the second definition of the word "win" in your link (which is the current common use or the word), then I am sure you have to agree that a cash shop is not pay to win.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    So... no... I think I don't really understand how paying for cosmetics helps a player win anything.
    Appreciate your response :)
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Iridianny wrote: »

    “Winning in Ashes if creation is not an overarching concept. You do not win the game.

    Rather, you win small portions of the game. This may be a fight with another player, a mob, or successfully crafting an item.”… or earning a cosmetic.
    I think we agree more than disagree.
    LMAO.
    No. Successfully crafting items is going to result in stats that help you win fights.
    Cosmetics won't help you win fights.
  • IridiannyIridianny Member
    edited August 2022
    @Dygz you are limiting “advancement” to your view of what is important in the game. Which seems to be “fights” XD To see the perspective I am offering you have to accept that there are multiple progression paths in a role playing game and experience, including personal achievement through visual progression.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Um. Personal progression is... personal. Not competitive.
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    edited August 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    Um. Personal progression is... personal. Not competitive.

    And it is also not a win factor by the gameplays design
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • @Noaani people use this term of win all them time… it’s not outdated. “I’m winning” is a common phrase to describe when people are achieving their personal goals all the time. The most pure form of winning has always been viewed as to beat your previous self rather than to beat someone else.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    I feel so validated when I see that Dygz disagrees with this position o:)
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    @Dygz you are limiting “advancement” to your view of what is important in the game. To see the perspective I am offering you have to accept that there are multiple progression paths in a role playing game and experience, including personal achievement through visual progression.

    Again, this is very... unreasonable. To reject someone opinion, and then state, to see things my way you must agree with my perspective...


    I would say you cant effect "personal achievment" with anything that could be considered p2w, as you cant purchase a "personal achievement."
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Um. Personal progression is... personal. Not competitive.

    Uhm yea, duh. Competition isn’t all there is to a role playing game bud. Ask Steven if his entire goal for this game was just it be a “big competition” and I’d imagine it wasn’t. It’s in a lot of ways an adventure game.
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    @Dygz you are limiting “advancement” to your view of what is important in the game. To see the perspective I am offering you have to accept that there are multiple progression paths in a role playing game and experience, including personal achievement through visual progression.

    Again, this is very... unreasonable. To reject someone opinion, and then state, to see things my way you must agree with my perspective...


    I would say you cant effect "personal achievment" with anything that could be considered p2w, as you cant purchase a "personal achievement."

    I didn’t say he had to agree with me, I said to understand he would have to accept there are multiple progression paths besides what he views as advancing, which having multiple progression paths is not my view, but a goal from the creator of the game.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Two biggest RPers on the forum disagreeing with each other :o
    q2g5l3roeipn.gif
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    @Dygz you are limiting “advancement” to your view of what is important in the game. Which seems to be “fights” XD

    Heh. Yeah... @dygz is all about kicking the crap out of others as quickly as possible. :D

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Iridianny wrote: »
    @Dygz you are limiting “advancement” to your view of what is important in the game. Which seems to be “fights” XD To see the perspective I am offering you have to accept that there are multiple progression paths in a role playing game and experience, including personal achievement through visual progression.
    I fully accept that Ashes has a wide variety of progression paths.
    Cosmetics do not help anyone advance in any of them.
    I'm not sure what visual progression means when we can purchase cosmetics.

    What you seem to mean is that you feel that purchasing cosmetics does not allow people to feel a sense of accomplishment (and superiority) through visual progression, where the only way for people to look better or more heroic or super-cool is via earning their appearance.
    You want visual progression to be competitive. And purchasing cosmetics doesn't allow us to have competitive visual progression.

    I guess that can be a thing, but...
    Seems like it's not a view that is at all popular.
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Um. Personal progression is... personal. Not competitive.

    Uhm yea, duh. Competition isn’t all there is to a role playing game bud. Ask Steven if his entire goal for this game was just it be a “big competition” and I’d imagine it wasn’t. It’s in a lot of ways an adventure game.

    My personal win objective is simply owning a character in the game, therefore it is P2W because I had to pay money to achieve this. This is what you sound like to me.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    What if things end up the opposite of what you expect? What if end game raids and such rewards such fancy cosmetic skins that everything in the shop ends up looking like a joke?
  • CROW3 wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    @Dygz you are limiting “advancement” to your view of what is important in the game. Which seems to be “fights” XD

    Heh. Yeah... @dygz is all about kicking the crap out of others as quickly as possible. :D

    I knew he would see things my way one day!!! :D
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • NiKr wrote: »
    I feel so validated when I see that Dygz disagrees with this position o:)

    So simpy XD
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2022
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Um. Personal progression is... personal. Not competitive.

    Uhm yea, duh. Competition isn’t all there is to a role playing game bud. Ask Steven if his entire goal for this game was just it be a “big competition” and I’d imagine it wasn’t. It’s in a lot of ways an adventure game.
    You are the one who is claiming that cosmetics allow us to win something.
    Personal progression with appearance is not competitive and does not allow us to win anything.
    You have personal objectives you wish to achieve. Great. A cosmetics shop does not prevent you from achieving personal visual progression goals - especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game.
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    XD & “performance” is subjective as I’ve discussed there are multiple progression paths and multiple types of players. Visual progression is a real way of playing a role playing game whether you like it or not. I understand intrepid said no p2w, that’s why I made this post to show how cosmetic shop can be interpreted as p2w for many people when, like I said, visual progression is winning when winning can be a personal achievement and not every aspect of the role playing game is competitive pvp nor is it the sole focus.

    Yep, I agree that's a perspective. ;)

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • IridiannyIridianny Member
    edited August 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Um. Personal progression is... personal. Not competitive.

    Uhm yea, duh. Competition isn’t all there is to a role playing game bud. Ask Steven if his entire goal for this game was just it be a “big competition” and I’d imagine it wasn’t. It’s in a lot of ways an adventure game.
    You are the one who is claiming that cosmetics allow us to win something.
    Personal progression is not competitive and does not allows us to win anything.
    You have personal objectives you wish to achieve. A cosmetics shop does not prevent you from achieving personal visual progression goals - especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game.

    win verb
    \ ˈwin \
    won\ ˈwən \; winning
    Definition of win (Entry 1 of 2)
    transitive verb
    1a: to get possession of by effort or fortune
    b: to obtain by work : EARN

    Winning is not always competitive with other people, sometimes its a personal competition or achievement.

    "especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game" - I mean this helps if it follows this path, but they aren't exactly the same item if they have a different appearance.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Iridianny wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    I feel so validated when I see that Dygz disagrees with this position o:)

    So simpy XD

    Dygz is the "father" of the forums. The longer im here the more i see it
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited August 2022
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Um. Personal progression is... personal. Not competitive.

    Uhm yea, duh. Competition isn’t all there is to a role playing game bud. Ask Steven if his entire goal for this game was just it be a “big competition” and I’d imagine it wasn’t. It’s in a lot of ways an adventure game.
    You are the one who is claiming that cosmetics allow us to win something.
    Personal progression is not competitive and does not allows us to win anything.
    You have personal objectives you wish to achieve. A cosmetics shop does not prevent you from achieving personal visual progression goals - especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game.

    win verb
    \ ˈwin \
    won\ ˈwən \; winning
    Definition of win (Entry 1 of 2)
    transitive verb
    1a: to get possession of by effort or fortune
    b: to obtain by work : EARN

    Winning is not always competitive with other people, sometimes its a personal competition or achievement.

    "especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game" - I mean this helps if it follows this path, but they aren't exactly the same item if they have a different appearance.

    With this definition... you can win a cosmetic... but a cosmetic does not make you win......

    "Now, thanks to this pants skin, i have won".... no. No you havnt. Having that skin has not obtained anything further for you. It has not "gained possession of" something more for you. Winning may gain you a cosmetic. Having a cosmetic is not wining.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Iridianny wrote: »
    So simpy XD
    Nah, it's just about Dygz' pov on this topic being so damn close to yours (him being another huge RPer and whatnot), but him still disagreeing with you, just feels me with joy and happiness. It just tells me that I wasn't crazy to completely not understand your point. I tried so hard and got so far to do it, but ultimately failed. And obviously most others barely even tried. But the fact that Dygz is also disagreeing just shows to me that the point itself was so damn far out there that it's completely fine to no understand it or disagree with it.
  • Iridianny wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    I feel so validated when I see that Dygz disagrees with this position o:)

    So simpy XD

    Dygz is the "father" of the forums. The longer im here the more i see it

    That's just because his profile pic is an old dude and he has a bunch of titles that shows he's spent a lot of money on this game already. Of course he's invested in his literal investment.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited August 2022
    What if things end up the opposite of what you expect? What if end game raids and such rewards such fancy cosmetic skins that everything in the shop ends up looking like a joke?

    24px0czfyc51.png


    cdu39tu5pnt9.png
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    So simpy XD
    Nah, it's just about Dygz' pov on this topic being so damn close to yours (him being another huge RPer and whatnot), but him still disagreeing with you, just feels me with joy and happiness. It just tells me that I wasn't crazy to completely not understand your point. I tried so hard and got so far to do it, but ultimately failed. And obviously most others barely even tried. But the fact that Dygz is also disagreeing just shows to me that the point itself was so damn far out there that it's completely fine to no understand it or disagree with it.

    Just because he's another rper doesn't mean we should have the same perspective on this... do you think that about all groups of people. It's very stereotype-y.
  • IridiannyIridianny Member
    edited August 2022
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Iridianny wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Um. Personal progression is... personal. Not competitive.

    Uhm yea, duh. Competition isn’t all there is to a role playing game bud. Ask Steven if his entire goal for this game was just it be a “big competition” and I’d imagine it wasn’t. It’s in a lot of ways an adventure game.
    You are the one who is claiming that cosmetics allow us to win something.
    Personal progression is not competitive and does not allows us to win anything.
    You have personal objectives you wish to achieve. A cosmetics shop does not prevent you from achieving personal visual progression goals - especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game.

    win verb
    \ ˈwin \
    won\ ˈwən \; winning
    Definition of win (Entry 1 of 2)
    transitive verb
    1a: to get possession of by effort or fortune
    b: to obtain by work : EARN

    Winning is not always competitive with other people, sometimes its a personal competition or achievement.

    "especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game" - I mean this helps if it follows this path, but they aren't exactly the same item if they have a different appearance.

    With this definition... you can win a cosmetic... but a cosmetic does not make you win......

    Winning something is literally "winning"...
Sign In or Register to comment.