The reveal was disappointing to me. Ranged combat is just auto aim and leaves less room for a skill cap as having to aim, you can't miss your shots with tab target and you can't dodge shots from an enemy which doesn't reward good gameplay in PvP. Please reconsider making PvP skill more rewarding.
I am really happy with the direction of the ranger mobility kit and abilities, the vault ability is amazing and I hope makes it to official launch. I am just curios if the basic SPACE BAR jump will negate melee while in the air ?
First off, cool animations for both bows in the stream, but for me as an archer there are a few things I would change.
For the longbow I would increase the item size by about 70-80%, the bow shown looks more like a recurve (rule of thumb for a longbow in rl: the bow is at least as big as the archer). I like the size of the short bow (it could be smoother though with less pointy decoration).
The second thing I think could be changed is the sound. When the arrow is drawn back the cracking sound I would reduce by 40%, if a bow does something like that in rl it is about to break apart. The other thing is the sound of the arrows, yes there are arrows that howl, but in general the arrows are rather quieter and you hear more of a soft hiss (like when you hit with a thin branch the wind noises) than a whistle/howl.
This is very petty and the sounds in the stream are also mainstream what you hear in games and flims (but mainstream doesn't have to be good/better).
As someone who's mostly played New World and also played only the bow for a couple thousand hours. I liked the fact that there was a good amount of mobility as an archer and hope u focus on that and keep it in mind, in new world the mobility that the bow has is next to none and only when paired with another weapon it gains significant amount of mobility. I also hope that there won't be abilities that stun lock you which is very inconvenient for an archer (unless it's an ability that of course has the need to charge or something like that). And I think one thing that is done well in New world with the bow is the fact that the arrows are trajectory based and not hitscan which you've gone that route as well, and I hope it stays that way since it incorporates more skill into playing the ranger, and also gives the action mode more convenience of use since you'll have to lead your shots.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
-I am glad I will seemingly not be forced into a specific camera mode in order to deal the most damage. I am not interested in playing a 3rd person shooter. This is the way to go if you actually want to have parity between the camera types and you can properly balance ranged damage output at a set baseline. It is not a choice if one is objectively better. I do not believe it is possible to give action cam an advantage and not have it followed by years of balancing issues. This is by far the best way to do it along with some more action like aimed skills.
In the end basic attacks should remain basic. Do not give yourself years of balance issues for no real benefit.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
- I am fine with having an ammo element that is replacing part of the durability repair costs. It is mostly a flavor thing but I think it would work in conjunction with how repairs work for other weapons
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
-The proc based gameplay for basic attacks sounds fun.
-The leap skill could use a short running dash start to the animation. It looks a bit odd with how it works now. Just something to give the character the appearance of forward momentum.
-The attack speed seemed a bit too fast as a baseline. It will make building attack speed feel like it barely does anything.
-I am concerned about the prospect of endlessly firing off ranged attacks during sieges with no downsides for the ranged character. If there is no ammo management or mana management involved it sounds like it will be a necessary to keep spamming no matter what. Resource management should matter for timing a charge during a siege. Blind firing might have to burn mana if it is going to be a real mechanic.
General concerns about the combat showcase.
-The time to kill for mobs seemed way too fast. Most of the time the mobs did not have time to do more than 1 or 2 attacks and 0 attacks for the melee mobs. The health regen way way too fast for this low incoming damage. The player would rarely feel any kind of danger from this combat. I want a meaningful choice between playing safe and playing recklessly in terms of keeping your health and mana high to be safe from ganks or unexpected mob pulls.
So far everything looks great. Basically When I think of rangers I think of a ranged focused class with some melee incorporated for close combat. High damage output when unchecked, and high mobility.
I enjoy that you are going to have noticeable difference between weapons types and that they won't just be "stat sticks" with slightly different animations. Fast/mobile with shortbow and slow/heavy hitting with long bow should be very fun!
I also like the way you are going with the tab/action combat system. I think a system like the way bows/rifles work in New World doesn't really fit with Ashes. The soft-lock system seems to be a good way to be able to fight against multiple targets at once without having to have absolutely perfect aim, or having to fight against the Tab button not working the way you want it to.
I'm not sure if this was just stream audio levels or what, but the bow shooting sounds effects were quite loud and almost like a whistle - i couldn't listen to that for too long. Often-played sound effects such as those standard bow shots should be much lower in the mix, IMO.
The skill animations shown in the Stream today (9/30) looked great, especially Air Strike. I'm excited to see the rest of the skillset!
Tab target, no miss ranged shots are horrible for pvp regardless of what gw2 and wow players say. I've played every pve and pvp MMO out there. The only good pvp games are ones that introduced action combat (Age of Conan, New World, etc). A ranged player with auto target and auto aim takes no skill. I'm excited for the PvE aspect of the game based on this video.. but as a hardcore PvP enjoyer as well, it will be hard to get me to stop playing New World unless the tab target, auto hit portion is re-vamped.
There's nothing wrong with making a mostly PvE centric game fighting style (I equate this to FFXIV, WoW, GW2) but claiming a game is PvP based and then making it not skill based by utilizing ranged tab target auto hitting is the worst. I truly hope this changes (specifically towards the ranger gameplay we saw and no miss / tab target).
The graphics and world looked fantastic. Keep up the good work in that regard.
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DralayMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited October 2022
Overall it looked ok for tab target and decently smooth, one thing that was very unclear was whether or not both action mode and tab mode were projectiles or if the tab was hit scan and action was projectile. Personally, I believe both should be projectile, however, if the plan is to make tab hit-scan then the range or something for action needs to be increased if not it seems a bit unbalanced to be in tab. However this looked decent, it's definitely not my preference for combat because I fear it has a very low skill ceiling being primarily tab-based combat but it is what it is. My main concern is really longevity and how well the combat system will age but that will only be seen in time.
Committing to this type aim-lock tab targeting system for ranged abilities will ruin the integrity of PvP in Ashes. Not being able to aim and be rewarded for my aim ruins the immersion of any ranged class whilst also making me not want to play melee knowing I won't be able to effectively dodge any attacks. This also creates very shallow and unengaging PvP that points to a very high chance of the TTK being within a few seconds. I am disappointed as this essentially kills my desire to participate in PvP which was the main thing that excited me about this game.
Todays livestream showed a great direction on combat design for ranged classes. The overall MMO community enjoys the tab target combatstyle as playerpopulation statistics show. There are many reasons for this, like Narc already presented in his latest video. With this decision on combat design I am sure AoC can win over the MMO gaming market by storm.
Tab target, no miss ranged shots are horrible for pvp regardless of what gw2 and wow players say. I've played every pve and pvp MMO out there. The only good pvp games are ones that introduced action combat (Age of Conan, New World, etc). A ranged player with auto target and auto aim takes no skill. I'm excited for the PvE aspect of the game based on this video.. but as a hardcore PvP enjoyer as well, it will be hard to get me to stop playing New World unless the tab target, auto hit portion is re-vamped.
There's nothing wrong with making a mostly PvE centric game fighting style (I equate this to FFXIV, WoW, GW2) but claiming a game is PvP based and then making it not skill based by utilizing ranged tab target auto hitting is the worst. I truly hope this changes (specifically towards the ranger gameplay we saw and no miss / tab target).
The graphics and world looked fantastic. Keep up the good work in that regard.
Wrong. I doubt that you have played "every MMO" there is. Try out one of the successful MMOs. Than come back and correct your answer on tab combat.
I am not someone who planned on playing ranger or had a specific interest in bows. However, I will say that the bow combat felt compelling enough for me to keep it in mind if bows potentially provide bonuses relevant to my desired class/function (Cleric/Healer.) Which is a credit to the execution it felts both in visual and audio.
I will say the long bow v. short bow in terms of mobility didn't translate as well in the demonstration but I feel like that is something to be play tested as some things can't be as readily experienced by observation as well as personally playing.
As a gamer in general, I REALLY like the design compromise between action and tab. I feel like it is well thought out and provides the the feel/experience of action but is balanced well against an MMO design and provide a viable experience for different types of gamers too.
The speed is perfect from the showcase.
We will have to test it later to give you full response to that.
I loved the load feature to hold the button, this is really a good way that you are going.
Stay on that path.
The jumping area skill is a nice feature, but plz no too much of this kind of skills.
For me a ranger/bow class it is a kind of sneaky class like the ranger in DAoC. Maybe add an additional jump backwards to get more distance from you and the mob/player - Rangers are no "Gummi Bears"
And plz stay on the no ammo-path. It would be more roleplay accurate yes - but in every game i had that, it's a boring thing to refill on the longterm. Stay away from the arrows
But hearts from a longtime mmo player - the path you're on is really good. You all at intreped did an amazing job on the ranged attack so far - go on.
I really hoping forward to test this and other things in alpha two. Just waiting for the perfect set to buy
As a primarily mmo ranged player, I am very disappointed to see the amount of tab targeting auto lock.. I don't think tab targeting belongs in this generation of mmo.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
I really liked the weight behind the shots. I feel like that’s something important that is often done poorly in other MMORPG’s.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Something I’m wanting to see is more of an actual ranger concept and less of a pet handler. Far too often in MMORPG’s, a pet is required when wanting to play the ranger archetype. I would much prefer making campfires that offer buffs, cooking skill options or reduced downtown
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I’m concerned about the full movement speed while shooting and how that’ll balance in PvP. It seems very strong, but without having actually played it, it’s difficult to say.
Imo the ranged combat is going in a very bad direction. As an action player i want to aim my abilities, not have them fly to the target automatically if im aiming in the general direction to the target. Any form of auto aiming be that soft lock or hard lock or aim assist has no place with action combat and that needs to be removed.
The hold down attack button to beef up your shot is a good idea, but it needs to be aimed not auto honing tab target. Abilities like the Snipe also need to aimed.
At the moment there is zero risk vs reward on attacks like these auto honing on target. ''Action Mode'' is completely useless over tab with soft/hard lock and leaves no room for skill.
Air Strike ability looked good
My suggestion would be to house the hold and aim playstyle/abilities to be only available to action mode and remove any form of auto aiming/aim assist, soft or hard lock. This way there is more risk and reward with your shots doing more damage.
Ranger Skills should include buffs to your basic bow attacks, like freeze arrow or fire arrow and mobility skills. This way both tab and action players can benefit from them.
In Tab mode Freeze Arrow could have movement speed reduction on the target and depending on the charge level in action mode your arrow could freeze the target it hits and is fully charged, making action and hard CC more skill based. (Very important here is to make the arrow buff ability instantly apply the effect and not reload another arrow if u use the ability while charging/charged)
Or stuff like Multi shot where your next arrow released would split into 3 and do damage in a cone formation. Maybe you could stack the abilities like freeze arrow + multishot to do a short range cone slow/freeze
Personally enjoyed playing Bow in New World and i think the action mode playstyle with bows should be similar to that where it's complete free aim projectile based.
TLDR
Current direction of ranged combat very bad
Aim Assist/Soft/Hard Lock in Action need to be removed
Free aim is the way to go
Make Hold down and charge bow shots available to action only
Example ability = Freeze Arrow, Slows in tab mode, Fully Charged Free Aim Action Mode Freezes target
I like where the development of this class is directed, but!...Archer, this is a class that is quite difficult to surprise today's player, so if look at the archers in other games- they are all of the same! and I personally would like to see more acrobatic movements in combat mode, interesting rolls and combine with, for example, Capoeira movements (it's always beautiful) and only this can already stand out and emphasize the special features of the class - agility and speed.( I understand that it was just a "demo" of archer type)
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
1. I definitely am more action oriented so being able to attack without using Tab.
2. Movement while playing within reason (should be balanced so kiting doesn't make a easy win 70% of the time)
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Definitely flare for some of the skills not just from the look but the movement those skills can give. One great one was in the showcase where you do the jump and attack below you.
My mind set is more on bow skills and their use over traps and such so it can be something i gloss over in most of the time they are made to be more generic typical ranger thing. When I think on smite they have a lot of unique concepts on skills that could be akin to traps but don't feel like it and are more fun to use.
Skill shots for me have to be a big ranger type thing, doesn't always have to be a single arrow shot or circle aoe. It can be a fan of arrows like a shot, gun, or other interesting ways to approach it.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
For me it has to be the tab auto attack regardless if action has some advantages in certain situations. It ultimately makes it extremely easy to kite while using tab lock. Which by default will make it easier to use your auto attack rather than having more skill involved with it to earn your movement speed.
In action you have to have more focused, tracking and planning for landing on your target even with soft lock. I feel speed should be turned down overall for tab target (based on the effectiveness of of kiting) and there should be more perks for action combat aiming. Slightly more speed of movement, more damage, etc. Enough to give incentive and add that skill ceiling for people that are able to do that.
Effectively this can be done though the weapon skill trees in creating preference and trade offs for ones focus on action and ones focused on tab
General concerns about the combat showcase.
1. Action combat should have more range than tab
2. Tab being overly effective and allowing people to kite at greater speeds, which if nerfed could effect action more negatively with the additional effort put in
3. I feel the soft lock target wasn't overly clear or maybe I missed it. I'm aware some games will have a added targetter on whom you are soft locked on so its really clear for you on top of your own crosshair.
Stuff I liked
1. Mobility
2. The flare of the jump skill, i could there are a lot of cool great animations that really take you into the moment of combat
3. Fight between the npcs, they seemed dangerous for solo content and more on the dangerous side being I believe easier mobs. Ones with some unique abilities might even prove to be more of a challenge. (reasoning for this is based on the damage taken, it looked like you would die after like 6-7 hits)
4. Action combat seems to be going in the right direction for the elements i saw and hearing its fun to play.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
I want them to feel impactful, I also would like for there to be more than just shooting as there is more you can do. I'd like for there to be more skill based play if that is allowable in the system and more rewards for aim if you are using the action camera.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I would love to see traps, throwing weapons, siege artillery specializations, and even ways to bypass castle defences. During the livestream we saw that aerial assault, and my hope if that you can use similar skills to scale or jump walls and the like. Augmenting them to do different things as well.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways? Monster Hunter worlds Bowguns feel really good for action combat, and I've been playing Planetside 2 for nearly a decade and their gun combat is okay for the time period the game and code came out.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I'm excited for the potential of ranged combat in the long term, however I am concerned that tab targeting may become the go to if there is no incentive to using action camera's as it may become more mechanically efficient to use tab targeting.
Yet another post calling for more enhancements to the action targeting system. Why would I opt for action targeting and take the risk of missing when tab targeting will auto aim for me? Given the risk and reward motif we have heard about in so many other systems, I would expect the same to apply here. Skill expression is a big part of engagement, and while I understand players who want to use tab targeting should be able to perform at a base level, adding some sort of incentive to be able to perform better based on our own merit is something I think would make many players feel more fulfilled with the ranged combat system.
Tab target, no miss ranged shots are horrible for pvp regardless of what gw2 and wow players say. I've played every pve and pvp MMO out there. The only good pvp games are ones that introduced action combat (Age of Conan, New World, etc). A ranged player with auto target and auto aim takes no skill. I'm excited for the PvE aspect of the game based on this video.. but as a hardcore PvP enjoyer as well, it will be hard to get me to stop playing New World unless the tab target, auto hit portion is re-vamped.
There's nothing wrong with making a mostly PvE centric game fighting style (I equate this to FFXIV, WoW, GW2) but claiming a game is PvP based and then making it not skill based by utilizing ranged tab target auto hitting is the worst. I truly hope this changes (specifically towards the ranger gameplay we saw and no miss / tab target).
The graphics and world looked fantastic. Keep up the good work in that regard.
Wrong. I doubt that you have played "every MMO" there is. Try out one of the successful MMOs. Than come back and correct your answer on tab combat.
This is for feedback and you are arguing. Plenty of people prefer action combat.
When Steven answered the question about "Why would I choose action camera if I can miss" and talked about player comfort and target switching I was very surprised. This seems like a big departure from previous emphasis on action combat where making a choice to spec an action ability would add damage or secondary effects (to make up for the time when you miss). If the action camera is going to just be style choice with clear drawbacks, then I don't see the purpose of it.
The vaulting ability was awesome. However, I think calling moves like that 'action combat' is a bit of a misnomer since plenty of tab target games have templated abilities like that. After today's video I would probably describe Ashes combat as tab target with some action elements. I definitely wouldn't present it as a 50/50 hybrid [or 30/70]
From what I could see in the video, the action part of the ranged combat is a little weird. I like that even in action you can hard lock, as that gives it a bit of a dark souls feel. I think however you are losing a lot of interest of those who like action combat because of the soft lock system. I like many want there to be truly aimed skill shots.
The way I see being able to make the action combat style appealing to tab target users, and tab targeting appealing to action players, would be to get rid of this soft lock and make it so that aiming means something. Assuming there isn't hit scanning and we actually have projectile travel time, it would make sense to make hard locking and tab targeting simply aim at the enemies torso. Then with action aiming skill shots, you use a standard system in games where hitting different hit boxes has differing effects.
The most simple and common would be hitting the head giving some kind of crit bonus, or even a stun/dizzy debuff chance. I wouldn't think that arm and leg hit boxes would be much harder to implement, and could have a chance to give attack dmg/attack speed debuffs, and slow/trip debuffs respectively. Whereas hitting the abdomen would just be basic damage. I would also think that if there is projectile travel, the auto aim at the abdomen could easily have a chance of hitting the other hit boxes just from the movements and animation of the enemy, which would give tab target users a non zero chance of getting those debuffs and crits as well.
This design would in my opinion actually make it fun to switch between action and tab targeting on the fly and for different situations. I can imagine that if you are fighting multiple enemies and need to be mobile, locking or tab targeting would be far more appealing as a tactic, but if you are fighting a big boss from the back lines or trying to take down an assassination target then skillfully aiming at the enemies head with a powerful shot would feel great. At the same time, maybe in that first situation it will be more effective to aim at the multitple enemies feet and slow or trip them so you can keep moving and kiting them. In the second situation it might be better to lock on and keep on the move because the boss has a big AoE attack you need to keep dodging.
I think regardless the ranged combat is looking okay for a start, and my only real issue is with the soft lock and the seeming lack of aimed skill shots being worth something. Fix those things, and I think you will gain a lot of support for the system from both sides of the action/tab targeting discussion, but especially the action combat crowd that I think might be a bit disappointed with how things are currently. Which stands at ranged combat looking particularly not hybrid.
Edit: I have realized that the discontent in the action combat community can be easily summarized. As it stands there is a clear advantage to tab targeting versus aiming. It is that tab target/locking basically always hits, where aiming you are probably more likely to miss. To balance this problem Intrepid decided to add aim assist with the soft locking.
The problem is, action players don't want aim assist. They want to be rewarded for having good aim.
My suggestion above is the best way I can think of to give everyone a real choice in how they play.
Before answering the questions, here are some random pieces of feedback:
Love the sounds of the attacks both on release and impact as well as upon death of the target. I would love to perhaps add some more distinct audio cues for critical hits (if there were already, I did not differentiate between them in the video) and perhaps a different arrow whistle or impact sound depending on whether I'm using a longbow or a shortbow. If I'm swapping between the two in a frantic battle, I can see myself using the one kind of bow that I wasn't perhaps intending to use. An audio difference between the two could help in spotting this player error.
The visual effects on the skills are incredible and I love the direction. They feel special whilst remaining restrained enough so as to not impede visibility. Big props for hitting that sweet medium point.
Little details like ear slits on hoods for elves, are things that I adore, and hope to get more of for every specific race. For long ears, a section of the hood to house them, without them being exposed could also be good (especially in colder climates). For reference, look at the hoods for Elezen in FFXIV.
Lighting getting in the eyes of the players can be an incredibly interesting option for planning encounters in PvP (think Gandalf coming down the mountainside at the battle of the Hornburg in Helm's Deep). However I'd also be wary of overdoing it as it might just melt graphic cards and get in the way of satisfying gameplay.
Onto the questions:
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
For me it is important to have clear understanding of my effective range and that the attacks feel responsive and impactful.
Thus far, from the presentation shown I believe the game is doing great at the second and third option. Maybe it was the choice of area to demonstrate, but I didn't feel the range difference between the Longbow and the Shortbow.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
For me the perfect fantasy of a Ranger are the Dúnedain or the Gondorian rangers in Tolkien's works. They're basically just badass fighters at both ranged and melee combat who are experts in wilderness survival and tracking down and ambushing their enemies.
I'd say, therefore, that a toolkit which allows for these things beyond the simple "pew-pew I'm launching arrow at you" are also important. However as this is an MMO and sombe balance is necessary: traps and planning ahead of the engagement should be important to the Ranger as I would hope they are vulnerable in close quarters. Their battle plan is then to keep the enemy at range as best they can, resorting to melee only as a desperation move.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
My personal experience with ranged weapon attacks derive mostly from FFXIV and Tera and New World. In the former, being a tab targeting only game, the basic attacks are auto-attacks don't quite matter and the rotation of pressable skills is where the damage comes from. These look great but lack any sort of impact on the enemy. They sometimes have a little stagger animation, but something like Refulgent Arrow, which looks massive and epic, doesn't feel like it lands, and rather the animation passes through and you're left with a very soft floating number to indicate that it did indeed do damage.
However the skill to skill synergy, application and refreshing of buffs and the build up of ressources towards a stronger attack feels very good and keeps a player feeling like a sort of arrow minigun.
In Tera and New World the action combat required manual aiming for all attacks and it felt good. The hits felt responsive and impactful. The animations were good, and certain skills even had the camera zoom in on the draw for more dramatic effect.
However in situations where the opponent had high mobility, it became basically impossible to hit anything. In the case of New World this was further aggravated by the fact that headshots were a thing, and it was sometimes impossible to land them if the mobs moved too fast or erratically. And don't get me started on lag.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I think the basic concern that I and most will have is: tab targeting vs action camera.
Basically it comes down to this: does an arrow loosed from a tab targeting press have the same odds of missing as one loosed from action camera?
If a tab target player can never miss, then the mentioned situation of needing to click on a nameplate to then start attacking, will matter close to zero in the choice of gameplay mode.
If a target is outside of my bow's range, can switching to action camera and aiming higher, allow the arrow to fly further than it could in tab target?
How far off of the target can my reticle be and still have my arrow hit the target? Does this change if I have a hard-lock or not?
Beyond those, this showcase really made me want to play a Ranger, for the mobility, the sounds and animations. So I'm very excited to see the more "epic" skills of higher levels.
I'm also interested in seeing how all these skills work off of the MP gauge, and how this class and others go about managing their MP ressource.
When Steven answered the question about "Why would I choose action camera if I can miss" and talked about player comfort and target switching I was very surprised. This seems like a big departure from previous emphasis on action combat where making a choice to spec an action ability would add damage or secondary effects (to make up for the time when you miss). If the action camera is going to just be style choice with clear drawbacks, then I don't see the purpose of it.
The vaulting ability was awesome. However, I think calling moves like that 'action combat' is a bit of a misnomer since plenty of tab target games have templated abilities like that. After today's video I would probably describe Ashes combat as tab target with some action elements. I definitely wouldn't present it as a 50/50 hybrid [or 30/70]
He did mention higher chance on cc and such, but unsure if that will be enough until we see the full thing.
in my opinion the archer class looks great I'm glad your leaning more into tab targeting than action combat for ranged weapons as I feel the action combat is more suited for the melee weapons than ranged when its on ranged weapons it just feels like its trying to be a third person shooter
Imo the ranged combat is going in a very bad direction. As an action player i want to aim my abilities, not have them fly to the target automatically if im aiming in the general direction to the target. Any form of auto aiming be that soft lock or hard lock or aim assist has no place with action combat and that needs to be removed.
The hold down attack button to beef up your shot is a good idea, but it needs to be aimed not auto honing tab target. Abilities like the Snipe also need to aimed.
At the moment there is zero risk vs reward on attacks like these auto honing on target. ''Action Mode'' is completely useless over tab with soft/hard lock and leaves no room for skill.
Air Strike ability looked good
My suggestion would be to house the hold and aim playstyle/abilities to be only available to action mode and remove any form of auto aiming/aim assist, soft or hard lock. This way there is more risk and reward with your shots doing more damage.
Ranger Skills should include buffs to your basic bow attacks, like freeze arrow or fire arrow and such, this way both tab and action players can benefit from them.
In Tab mode Freeze Arrow could have movement speed reduction on the target and depending on the charge level in action mode your arrow could freeze the target it hits and is fully charged, making action and hard CC more skill based.
TLDR
Current direction of ranged combat very bad
Aim Assist/Soft/Hard Lock in Action need to be removed
Free aim is the way to go
Make Hold down and charge bow shots available to action only
Example ability = Freeze Arrow, Slows in tab mode, Fully Charged Free Aim Action Mode Freezes target
Where exactly do you see the risk vs reward balance in any action combat oriented MMO on the gamingmarket right now? New Worlds bow combat e.g. was made easyer with every patch while the on hit dmg got absurdly strong. So no skill equals high dmg reward? The result: everybody is playing bow in OPR. Explain please.
Comments
For the longbow I would increase the item size by about 70-80%, the bow shown looks more like a recurve (rule of thumb for a longbow in rl: the bow is at least as big as the archer). I like the size of the short bow (it could be smoother though with less pointy decoration).
The second thing I think could be changed is the sound. When the arrow is drawn back the cracking sound I would reduce by 40%, if a bow does something like that in rl it is about to break apart. The other thing is the sound of the arrows, yes there are arrows that howl, but in general the arrows are rather quieter and you hear more of a soft hiss (like when you hit with a thin branch the wind noises) than a whistle/howl.
This is very petty and the sounds in the stream are also mainstream what you hear in games and flims (but mainstream doesn't have to be good/better).
-I am glad I will seemingly not be forced into a specific camera mode in order to deal the most damage. I am not interested in playing a 3rd person shooter. This is the way to go if you actually want to have parity between the camera types and you can properly balance ranged damage output at a set baseline. It is not a choice if one is objectively better. I do not believe it is possible to give action cam an advantage and not have it followed by years of balancing issues. This is by far the best way to do it along with some more action like aimed skills.
In the end basic attacks should remain basic. Do not give yourself years of balance issues for no real benefit.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
- I am fine with having an ammo element that is replacing part of the durability repair costs. It is mostly a flavor thing but I think it would work in conjunction with how repairs work for other weapons
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
-The proc based gameplay for basic attacks sounds fun.
-The leap skill could use a short running dash start to the animation. It looks a bit odd with how it works now. Just something to give the character the appearance of forward momentum.
-The attack speed seemed a bit too fast as a baseline. It will make building attack speed feel like it barely does anything.
-I am concerned about the prospect of endlessly firing off ranged attacks during sieges with no downsides for the ranged character. If there is no ammo management or mana management involved it sounds like it will be a necessary to keep spamming no matter what. Resource management should matter for timing a charge during a siege. Blind firing might have to burn mana if it is going to be a real mechanic.
General concerns about the combat showcase.
-The time to kill for mobs seemed way too fast. Most of the time the mobs did not have time to do more than 1 or 2 attacks and 0 attacks for the melee mobs. The health regen way way too fast for this low incoming damage. The player would rarely feel any kind of danger from this combat. I want a meaningful choice between playing safe and playing recklessly in terms of keeping your health and mana high to be safe from ganks or unexpected mob pulls.
I also like the way you are going with the tab/action combat system. I think a system like the way bows/rifles work in New World doesn't really fit with Ashes. The soft-lock system seems to be a good way to be able to fight against multiple targets at once without having to have absolutely perfect aim, or having to fight against the Tab button not working the way you want it to.
I'm not sure if this was just stream audio levels or what, but the bow shooting sounds effects were quite loud and almost like a whistle - i couldn't listen to that for too long. Often-played sound effects such as those standard bow shots should be much lower in the mix, IMO.
The skill animations shown in the Stream today (9/30) looked great, especially Air Strike. I'm excited to see the rest of the skillset!
There's nothing wrong with making a mostly PvE centric game fighting style (I equate this to FFXIV, WoW, GW2) but claiming a game is PvP based and then making it not skill based by utilizing ranged tab target auto hitting is the worst. I truly hope this changes (specifically towards the ranger gameplay we saw and no miss / tab target).
The graphics and world looked fantastic. Keep up the good work in that regard.
Wrong. I doubt that you have played "every MMO" there is. Try out one of the successful MMOs. Than come back and correct your answer on tab combat.
I will say the long bow v. short bow in terms of mobility didn't translate as well in the demonstration but I feel like that is something to be play tested as some things can't be as readily experienced by observation as well as personally playing.
As a gamer in general, I REALLY like the design compromise between action and tab. I feel like it is well thought out and provides the the feel/experience of action but is balanced well against an MMO design and provide a viable experience for different types of gamers too.
We will have to test it later to give you full response to that.
I loved the load feature to hold the button, this is really a good way that you are going.
Stay on that path.
The jumping area skill is a nice feature, but plz no too much of this kind of skills.
For me a ranger/bow class it is a kind of sneaky class like the ranger in DAoC. Maybe add an additional jump backwards to get more distance from you and the mob/player - Rangers are no "Gummi Bears"
And plz stay on the no ammo-path. It would be more roleplay accurate yes - but in every game i had that, it's a boring thing to refill on the longterm. Stay away from the arrows
But hearts from a longtime mmo player - the path you're on is really good. You all at intreped did an amazing job on the ranged attack so far - go on.
I really hoping forward to test this and other things in alpha two. Just waiting for the perfect set to buy
I really liked the weight behind the shots. I feel like that’s something important that is often done poorly in other MMORPG’s.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Something I’m wanting to see is more of an actual ranger concept and less of a pet handler. Far too often in MMORPG’s, a pet is required when wanting to play the ranger archetype. I would much prefer making campfires that offer buffs, cooking skill options or reduced downtown
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I’m concerned about the full movement speed while shooting and how that’ll balance in PvP. It seems very strong, but without having actually played it, it’s difficult to say.
I'm not sure how much it was touched on, but rewarding people for landing pure action style shots seems important to a lot of loud people.
The hold down attack button to beef up your shot is a good idea, but it needs to be aimed not auto honing tab target. Abilities like the Snipe also need to aimed.
At the moment there is zero risk vs reward on attacks like these auto honing on target. ''Action Mode'' is completely useless over tab with soft/hard lock and leaves no room for skill.
Air Strike ability looked good
My suggestion would be to house the hold and aim playstyle/abilities to be only available to action mode and remove any form of auto aiming/aim assist, soft or hard lock. This way there is more risk and reward with your shots doing more damage.
Ranger Skills should include buffs to your basic bow attacks, like freeze arrow or fire arrow and mobility skills. This way both tab and action players can benefit from them.
In Tab mode Freeze Arrow could have movement speed reduction on the target and depending on the charge level in action mode your arrow could freeze the target it hits and is fully charged, making action and hard CC more skill based. (Very important here is to make the arrow buff ability instantly apply the effect and not reload another arrow if u use the ability while charging/charged)
Or stuff like Multi shot where your next arrow released would split into 3 and do damage in a cone formation. Maybe you could stack the abilities like freeze arrow + multishot to do a short range cone slow/freeze
Personally enjoyed playing Bow in New World and i think the action mode playstyle with bows should be similar to that where it's complete free aim projectile based.
TLDR
Current direction of ranged combat very bad
Aim Assist/Soft/Hard Lock in Action need to be removed
Free aim is the way to go
Make Hold down and charge bow shots available to action only
Example ability = Freeze Arrow, Slows in tab mode, Fully Charged Free Aim Action Mode Freezes target
1. I definitely am more action oriented so being able to attack without using Tab.
2. Movement while playing within reason (should be balanced so kiting doesn't make a easy win 70% of the time)
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
Definitely flare for some of the skills not just from the look but the movement those skills can give. One great one was in the showcase where you do the jump and attack below you.
My mind set is more on bow skills and their use over traps and such so it can be something i gloss over in most of the time they are made to be more generic typical ranger thing. When I think on smite they have a lot of unique concepts on skills that could be akin to traps but don't feel like it and are more fun to use.
Skill shots for me have to be a big ranger type thing, doesn't always have to be a single arrow shot or circle aoe. It can be a fan of arrows like a shot, gun, or other interesting ways to approach it.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
For me it has to be the tab auto attack regardless if action has some advantages in certain situations. It ultimately makes it extremely easy to kite while using tab lock. Which by default will make it easier to use your auto attack rather than having more skill involved with it to earn your movement speed.
In action you have to have more focused, tracking and planning for landing on your target even with soft lock. I feel speed should be turned down overall for tab target (based on the effectiveness of of kiting) and there should be more perks for action combat aiming. Slightly more speed of movement, more damage, etc. Enough to give incentive and add that skill ceiling for people that are able to do that.
Effectively this can be done though the weapon skill trees in creating preference and trade offs for ones focus on action and ones focused on tab
General concerns about the combat showcase.
1. Action combat should have more range than tab
2. Tab being overly effective and allowing people to kite at greater speeds, which if nerfed could effect action more negatively with the additional effort put in
3. I feel the soft lock target wasn't overly clear or maybe I missed it. I'm aware some games will have a added targetter on whom you are soft locked on so its really clear for you on top of your own crosshair.
Stuff I liked
1. Mobility
2. The flare of the jump skill, i could there are a lot of cool great animations that really take you into the moment of combat
3. Fight between the npcs, they seemed dangerous for solo content and more on the dangerous side being I believe easier mobs. Ones with some unique abilities might even prove to be more of a challenge. (reasoning for this is based on the damage taken, it looked like you would die after like 6-7 hits)
4. Action combat seems to be going in the right direction for the elements i saw and hearing its fun to play.
I want them to feel impactful, I also would like for there to be more than just shooting as there is more you can do. I'd like for there to be more skill based play if that is allowable in the system and more rewards for aim if you are using the action camera.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I would love to see traps, throwing weapons, siege artillery specializations, and even ways to bypass castle defences. During the livestream we saw that aerial assault, and my hope if that you can use similar skills to scale or jump walls and the like. Augmenting them to do different things as well.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways? Monster Hunter worlds Bowguns feel really good for action combat, and I've been playing Planetside 2 for nearly a decade and their gun combat is okay for the time period the game and code came out.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I'm excited for the potential of ranged combat in the long term, however I am concerned that tab targeting may become the go to if there is no incentive to using action camera's as it may become more mechanically efficient to use tab targeting.
This is for feedback and you are arguing. Plenty of people prefer action combat.
The vaulting ability was awesome. However, I think calling moves like that 'action combat' is a bit of a misnomer since plenty of tab target games have templated abilities like that. After today's video I would probably describe Ashes combat as tab target with some action elements. I definitely wouldn't present it as a 50/50 hybrid [or 30/70]
The way I see being able to make the action combat style appealing to tab target users, and tab targeting appealing to action players, would be to get rid of this soft lock and make it so that aiming means something. Assuming there isn't hit scanning and we actually have projectile travel time, it would make sense to make hard locking and tab targeting simply aim at the enemies torso. Then with action aiming skill shots, you use a standard system in games where hitting different hit boxes has differing effects.
The most simple and common would be hitting the head giving some kind of crit bonus, or even a stun/dizzy debuff chance. I wouldn't think that arm and leg hit boxes would be much harder to implement, and could have a chance to give attack dmg/attack speed debuffs, and slow/trip debuffs respectively. Whereas hitting the abdomen would just be basic damage. I would also think that if there is projectile travel, the auto aim at the abdomen could easily have a chance of hitting the other hit boxes just from the movements and animation of the enemy, which would give tab target users a non zero chance of getting those debuffs and crits as well.
This design would in my opinion actually make it fun to switch between action and tab targeting on the fly and for different situations. I can imagine that if you are fighting multiple enemies and need to be mobile, locking or tab targeting would be far more appealing as a tactic, but if you are fighting a big boss from the back lines or trying to take down an assassination target then skillfully aiming at the enemies head with a powerful shot would feel great. At the same time, maybe in that first situation it will be more effective to aim at the multitple enemies feet and slow or trip them so you can keep moving and kiting them. In the second situation it might be better to lock on and keep on the move because the boss has a big AoE attack you need to keep dodging.
I think regardless the ranged combat is looking okay for a start, and my only real issue is with the soft lock and the seeming lack of aimed skill shots being worth something. Fix those things, and I think you will gain a lot of support for the system from both sides of the action/tab targeting discussion, but especially the action combat crowd that I think might be a bit disappointed with how things are currently. Which stands at ranged combat looking particularly not hybrid.
Edit: I have realized that the discontent in the action combat community can be easily summarized. As it stands there is a clear advantage to tab targeting versus aiming. It is that tab target/locking basically always hits, where aiming you are probably more likely to miss. To balance this problem Intrepid decided to add aim assist with the soft locking.
The problem is, action players don't want aim assist. They want to be rewarded for having good aim.
My suggestion above is the best way I can think of to give everyone a real choice in how they play.
Love the sounds of the attacks both on release and impact as well as upon death of the target. I would love to perhaps add some more distinct audio cues for critical hits (if there were already, I did not differentiate between them in the video) and perhaps a different arrow whistle or impact sound depending on whether I'm using a longbow or a shortbow. If I'm swapping between the two in a frantic battle, I can see myself using the one kind of bow that I wasn't perhaps intending to use. An audio difference between the two could help in spotting this player error.
The visual effects on the skills are incredible and I love the direction. They feel special whilst remaining restrained enough so as to not impede visibility. Big props for hitting that sweet medium point.
Little details like ear slits on hoods for elves, are things that I adore, and hope to get more of for every specific race. For long ears, a section of the hood to house them, without them being exposed could also be good (especially in colder climates). For reference, look at the hoods for Elezen in FFXIV.
Lighting getting in the eyes of the players can be an incredibly interesting option for planning encounters in PvP (think Gandalf coming down the mountainside at the battle of the Hornburg in Helm's Deep). However I'd also be wary of overdoing it as it might just melt graphic cards and get in the way of satisfying gameplay.
Onto the questions:
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
For me it is important to have clear understanding of my effective range and that the attacks feel responsive and impactful.
Thus far, from the presentation shown I believe the game is doing great at the second and third option. Maybe it was the choice of area to demonstrate, but I didn't feel the range difference between the Longbow and the Shortbow.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
For me the perfect fantasy of a Ranger are the Dúnedain or the Gondorian rangers in Tolkien's works. They're basically just badass fighters at both ranged and melee combat who are experts in wilderness survival and tracking down and ambushing their enemies.
I'd say, therefore, that a toolkit which allows for these things beyond the simple "pew-pew I'm launching arrow at you" are also important. However as this is an MMO and sombe balance is necessary: traps and planning ahead of the engagement should be important to the Ranger as I would hope they are vulnerable in close quarters. Their battle plan is then to keep the enemy at range as best they can, resorting to melee only as a desperation move.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
My personal experience with ranged weapon attacks derive mostly from FFXIV and Tera and New World. In the former, being a tab targeting only game, the basic attacks are auto-attacks don't quite matter and the rotation of pressable skills is where the damage comes from. These look great but lack any sort of impact on the enemy. They sometimes have a little stagger animation, but something like Refulgent Arrow, which looks massive and epic, doesn't feel like it lands, and rather the animation passes through and you're left with a very soft floating number to indicate that it did indeed do damage.
However the skill to skill synergy, application and refreshing of buffs and the build up of ressources towards a stronger attack feels very good and keeps a player feeling like a sort of arrow minigun.
In Tera and New World the action combat required manual aiming for all attacks and it felt good. The hits felt responsive and impactful. The animations were good, and certain skills even had the camera zoom in on the draw for more dramatic effect.
However in situations where the opponent had high mobility, it became basically impossible to hit anything. In the case of New World this was further aggravated by the fact that headshots were a thing, and it was sometimes impossible to land them if the mobs moved too fast or erratically. And don't get me started on lag.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
I think the basic concern that I and most will have is: tab targeting vs action camera.
Basically it comes down to this: does an arrow loosed from a tab targeting press have the same odds of missing as one loosed from action camera?
If a tab target player can never miss, then the mentioned situation of needing to click on a nameplate to then start attacking, will matter close to zero in the choice of gameplay mode.
If a target is outside of my bow's range, can switching to action camera and aiming higher, allow the arrow to fly further than it could in tab target?
How far off of the target can my reticle be and still have my arrow hit the target? Does this change if I have a hard-lock or not?
Beyond those, this showcase really made me want to play a Ranger, for the mobility, the sounds and animations. So I'm very excited to see the more "epic" skills of higher levels.
I'm also interested in seeing how all these skills work off of the MP gauge, and how this class and others go about managing their MP ressource.
He did mention higher chance on cc and such, but unsure if that will be enough until we see the full thing.
Where exactly do you see the risk vs reward balance in any action combat oriented MMO on the gamingmarket right now? New Worlds bow combat e.g. was made easyer with every patch while the on hit dmg got absurdly strong. So no skill equals high dmg reward? The result: everybody is playing bow in OPR. Explain please.