Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
That there is substance even with autos. Movement reduction when autoing, the shortbow looked like it had none, which is not a good thing. I'd be happier if the reduction just isn't as large as the Longbow, but it visually looked like it had no reduction whatsoever, and was a rapid fire movement DPS, which is not a good thing imo.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
A general sense of the ranger would be traps, detection survival aspects. Movement abilities for relocating and distance dps, which this portion was portrayed well in the dev update.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Yes, absolutely. I believe Tera did an excellent system in all combat elements for action. Which I was hoping to see more in this reveal, instead of the pure tab target combat system we were shown. More details in full review below. For tab systems that still worked well, Lineage 2 always be a gem, the fact that you were rooted even during autos was good, especially considering the damage numbers I was seeing with the autos. If you can deal that much damage with autos, there should be downsides in movement when you attack, more details below.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Absolutely, here are my full thoughts. What was done right, was the sound effects, the movement/repositioning skill, the look of the animations in shooting were done very well. Loved the arm shake when holding a shot to show the tensing, was very well done in the audio visual side.
The wrong, I believe this is a full tab target system while masquerading in reticule mode. I was hoping for some tera action style elements in combat. Here are key factors in bullet points.
A. There is no benefit in being in reticule mode. Judging by the angle of running and shooting, there is no point to stay in reticule mode and aiming. Considering you are slowed when moving backwards, being in action mode is actually worse to play. If you can position a mob at 90 degrees to your left or right and target locked, and just shoot away while running and changing direction sideways, this can be exploited and takes away from any root aspects of combat. For the hybrid system to work, I believe you need to have aiming elements. Otherwise it will just be a zoom all the way out, run and shoot WoW floaty combat....Which is not satisfying in the slightest.
B. Shouldn't be able to jump and shoot. Even if this is a feature to the shortbow exclusively. I'm not sure if you can just run straight away from a locked target and auto with them at your back. But if your target has to be at your 3 or 9 o'clock to be able to attack, heck, even if it ends up being yo you have to face your target, I can already see the masses running away, jumping for momentum and turn shooting, rinse and repeat. This is pure WoW floatiness in combat which is just downright the wrong direction and breaks immersion, and this will be a realization with the current mechanics in place, so hope this gets rectified. The last thing I want to see are archers running and jumping, 180 turning to shoot quickly and running away again. This is the key factor of why tab target is bad if there is no rooting. You shouldn't get a full benefit of being able to DPS at high numbers, without having any counter play. Lineage 2 did this right, and it was tab target, all bow shots would root, and charges skills would take longer, but it gave time for gaining on the target. Now if the auto attacks were reduced in damage from what was displayed, and all the skills had a root element or forced duration slow, that would make it more bearable.
C. The Snipe animation and idea of charging up your shot is good. Tera did this VERY well. The more you charged, the more damage, and higher levels of the skill had additional levels of charge which was great, had impact, great sounds, was good. But the key aspect was you had to aim. If the Snipe skill is a tab target, I don't have much faith in other skillshot related skills, if there is any planned. There HAS to be some aim skills, the one thing I despised from my previous experiences in older MMO's I've played, had to do with ranged tab target classes. I remember in Aion, being an assassin, and being perma knock backed and rooted from archers, they had no negative downsides since every skill would hit since it was tabbed base with no negative downsides. Massive damage, roots, sleep arrows, etc, yea you might resist a status effect or too, but with all the mobility, jump shooting, it was just downright bad gameplay. Or being jump kited while being applied with dots left and right by sorcs/summoners/mages, with no real means of counterplay as both myself and target, had the same run speed.
Back on topic, but yea, need some actual skill shots. I'd be ok if the auto attacks were tab, but with lower damage than what was shown, as it was pretty high for auto attacks, with some sort of slowed down movement as a result, with snipe and other skills being aim based with a high damage. From the looks of the current setup, this is me speculating, I'm expecting AOE skills, all tab target attacks/skills atm...Which is quite upsetting.
I know I can keep going on and citing references from other games I've experienced. But summing things up. It feels like their is no action side in the archer gameplay. It's a full fledged tab target system, but with reticule mode masquerading as action, which is not good. The only way I can see to solve this. Is to ensure you can not jump and shoot, you have to face your target to shoot an auto or skill, with 100% some form of movement reduction when auto attacking, or using a skill. The addition of actual skill shots that are not just AOE rain of arrows, as I believe that is a cop out to say "We have action combat" when it truly isn't....Tera did action combat VERY well, but the game had nothing else to offer sadly...Was hoping some inspiration could be gleamed from it, as it did melee and range combat in action exceedingly well, where info can be gleaned to help strengthen the action side of ashes.
I do love the idea of locking onto a target for the the hybrid element of combat in action mode, that is smart, I Would of done that as well as I've brainstormed my ideal MMO combat system, but atm, there just is no benefit to the action side, at all, and will end up being a "Why are you not playing in tab mode?" being a reality, as there are negatives to playing in action mode. Which is the worst feeling to have, we already experience that in MMO's with "Ideal" builds, would suck to have that as an entire combat side of the game. Which at that point, game may as well be full tab, with which from prior community reactions from combat, is not what is wanted...So hopefully some compromises can be made to better blend the two...Which IMO, will require aiming skills.
Based on the dev update, the outcry at the beginning on the lack of aiming, being silenced by and shunned by people in chat brown nosing....I'm hoping this plight reaches the right ears, as there was a very large amount of people disheartened during the stream. Hoping for a good representation here on the forums from the community...Cause I really think of Ashes as my ideal game, but I believe this to be a rather large flaw.
Will edit to clean up my points as time goes on, but yea, just wanted to post this quickly, as my passionate nature towards ashes is pushing me forward to post and read the comments from others.
He should have a strong connection to nature and the wilderness. Including skills that give him camouflage/stealth, track abilities, traps, seeking and speaking with animals, using/curing poison, survivability/light healing, uncover ability, some crowd control for ranged attacks, high mobility/fast moving, light to mid armor.
I'm very surprised about the discussions of the hybrid targeting system. I like to have the choice using tab targeting or action mode. There is no reason to blame the tab targeting! Surly they may have to find a way to balance it or to allow action mode only in PvP content.
But I do not want to play a 'shooter game'. So in PvE content that's totally fine to have both!
Take the ability bound to the 3 key during the update: the AoEs placed by the attack could be vegetation in forests (as we saw in the update), quicksand in deserts, lava in volcanoes, mud in rain, swarms in swamps, ice in snow, etc. I would have it default to vegetation if no specific conditions are met, and it could even be weaker than in if used in a forest.
I would be happy if this was just a visual + damage type change. Based on previous updates, it seems the tools have already been developed to tweak the damage to CC ratio as well. (ex: lava may deal more damage and apply less CC when compared to mud)
and i don't know if it's correct to mention this here, but i've seen alpha 1 mage gameplay and they could spam basic attack like if they were shooting a machine gun, i know it was alpha 1 gameplay but i hope it changes for alpha 2 and release because spamming basic attacks and casting mage skills would make mages be too OP
Magic archer that use the elements (fire, water, etc) for basic attacks or maybe spec on one element and for non element mana arrow
Another option have the quiver select the type of arrows we want to use (ice, bleed, etc)
Crossbows slower attack speed but more damage
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
Proper balance on the movement speed allowed for ranged classes is all I ever really care about, as the game becomes frustrating and annoying in PvP and certain PvE situations without it. It will be bad enough for it to be 'possible to be sniped while fighting a mob or boss' as it is, not being able to quickly deal with the attacker is a nightmare.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I have no opinions on the Ranger archetype fantasy, they should be whatever they like. I see Rangers as just 'the ones with the bow who focus on using it well' and maybe 'trackers'. Beyond that, whatever makes them happy.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Ranged Basic attacks are by nature, basic, you point and shoot. Monster Hunter does well. Once you get into the realm of Tab Target games or Tab-Target-Adjacent games like Ashes, it doesn't really matter, I think. You just point at the enemy, hold down the button, and let the arrows fly!
My concern was noted above. The Shortbow movement speed seemed too high, though I don't necessarily feel like I want a change to it, moreso I would prefer a loss to accuracy or damage if the ShortBow shoots while moving. I don't mind being kited, I mind being kited without my opponent having a reason to consider not doing that.
That being said I like the soft lock in action mode because well I never used tab targeting that much. I would usually click on a nameplate with my mouse to select a target, like a noob. I'm assuming some abilities will be skill shots which I have no problem with. I just really don't want a system where an aim bot could be used and it ends up being something I have to consider rather than being amazed at how good that player is.
Agreed with every word wholeheartedly 👍
The Melee system is basically this already and I strongly feel the ranged system should mirror this. Don't make the aiming so hardcore that only FPS players will be good at it, But just enough that someone with a half decent aim can actually feel the difference they make in shots.
Overall though the ability's looked amazing and the new UI looks super clean, very impressed.
First, I think that past descriptions of how tab-targeting and action combat would be integrated have mislead parts of the community like myself that prefer the strengths of action combat systems in general. Even referring to it as a "hybrid" system between tab-targeting and "action combat" styles is misleading. From the showcase today, we saw that the hybrid system is referring almost exclusively to the camera controls and not anything to do with the functionality of combat. Having the camera tied directly to the mouse and the inclusion of a reticle is nice and something I personally prefer, but to call it action "combat" is ridiculous; it is absolutely still a tab-targeting system. I'm not necessarily saying one is better than the other, only that it should have always been described as an option for an action "camera" and not action "combat". We also were told that action combat would be an option to overcome RNG factors such as missing shots, which to me heavily implies some sort of aiming system.
The only action combat element we saw in the showcase was the dodge roll that the ranger has. This seems really great, however, we never saw it used as a dodge, only as a movement mechanic. Will this dodge roll be able to mitigate damage from incoming attacks if timed correctly? I think active dodging and blocking are the two most positive features of action combat and would most likely satisfy that part of the community. The most off-putting part of tab-targeting combat for me is having to rely on the game's RNG to tell me if I dodged or blocked an attack (or my enemy dodged or blocked my attack), especially when I can see the animations make contact but a little text says it was dodged.
The only real concern I have with ranged attacks auto-hitting targeted opponents is the balance it has with melee users. The equivalent of "aiming" for a melee player is positioning. Tab-targeting or not, a melee player has to physically position his character in the world close enough to an opponent to make contact and deal damage. A ranged player, however, does not. (Of course, there is a maximum range for a bow, but for the purpose of this argument that is negligent since anything outside of that range is not in combat with you.) This is why ranged attacks generally need to be aimed. It creates a similar skill-based action for ranged users to interact with in combat; otherwise, ranged weapons would just be better and easier to use by default than melee. There are ways to balance the two without requiring ranged attacks to be aimed, but I don't think most are very fun: ranged weapons could have less DPS by default, there could be a required minimum range for bows to be fired to add a positioning element that is directly opposite to melee users, drawing a bow could be easily interrupted which would effectively add a similar positioning aspect but in a more realistic way, or there could be a percentage chance to miss. I am interested to hear of other ways to solve this problem that I haven't thought of as I think that most of these suggestions are less than ideal.
Like I said, overall the combat looks fun and engaging and definitely worth playing. I understand that not everyone can get their exact preference for combat in Ashes, but I am disappointed with the communication about the combat style. Clearly, Intrepid has a different interpretation of the phrase "action combat" than at least some of the community.
- Fluid movements.
- Possibility of combos.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
I want to see:
- I want to see something like Black Desert.
Please avoid:
- I do not want to see something too similar of WoW’s Hunter.
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
- Black Desert has fluidity
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
Excited for:
- Abilities animations are great, in my opinion. It’s a breath of fresh air compared to WoW’s Hunter.
Concerned about:
- Ranger being too OP. I can’t judge the demonstration because Steven was on God mode, but my fear is it to be too OP. In some cases, it’s too easy to kill mobs as a ranged character.
Other things I enjoyed so far:
- Mobs healing themselves when they are standing in water.
- Possibility to Soft/Hard lock.
A few months back everyone was freaking out saying the game turned BDO due to a simple basic attack demonstration and the same thing is happening now, based on Basic ranged weapon attacks... soflt lock is part of Action games like BDO, B&S, Tera and so many others... and it is Amazing that ranged combat is going on that path with the action mode!
Please, focus on giving us the Best game YOU can make, and don't listen to so much to the gamers complaints that are based on personal preference.
Everyone wants something different and you will end up with a Frankenstein of a game if you try to cater to everyone - just Move Forward and don't change the direction because your hybrid combat it's looking great!
General Feedback:
Things that I like:
- Audio is AMAZING
- Visual effects are AMAZING
- Combat direction is Perfect with the Action and Tab camera PLEASE don't try do balance them and give action mode extra incentives (No Headshots!)
- Do not rework the combat again please this is 100% the correct direction - you Won't make everyone happy so don't try to do so
- Attack speed from both ranged and melee weapons is looking good
- love the difference between weapons
Things I'd like to change
- Mobs are dying WAY to fast, decrease that for at least twice of what we saw.... TTK is absolutely Way to fast in the demonstration and now I worry that you won't deliver the 30s to 60s TTK when fighting a player - TTK is extremely important we want a longer and skilled combat and not a 5 second burst BDO combat.
- Maybe add more camera effects like shake/blur to make the combat more impactful (make it optional to lower in settings)
- Blood effects would be awesome for all the "living" mobs... if we can get blood decals on the floor or coming out the mobs - look at how Tera did blood splatter and decals... it's amazing and makes it so much more impactful this video is a good example (allow it to be turned off for the kids or people that don't like blood)
- A more visceral audio feedback when a Critical strike lands, combined with some extra blood slpatter (again, look at how Tera did it) or how Rust does the sound effect for Headshots (but please, No headshots in Ashes.. I'm just talking about the sound effect idea for Critical Strikes)
- A satisfying combat will make everyone happy, even the ones that are not big fans of the other side of the hybrid combat, that's why my suggestions above focus on that on making it Really impactful and satisfying just to kill mobs
- Don't allow people to turn off sun/lens flare/weather effect same as foliage so that positioning according to the sun is important
- I think every Mob should have some sort of CC in his kit (all should have soft CC, some should have hard CCs in every mob group pack) so you can't just run away from everything on foot or mounted
Thanks...didn't expect anyone to read that essay...much appreciated, haha.
1. What would be important to me for the basic attack is to have some sort of meaning and weight behind it and not just something used to gap between abilities on cooldown.
2. My Ranger fantasy reference has always been something closer to Aion. I played it for several thousand if not more hours and I absolutely loved how Ranger felt in that game. Being able to move and basic attack, the fluidity of the skills and the movement with the character. The direction you guys are going is exactly what I want to see.
3. No particular thoughts on this
4. I'm excited about the whole kit itself. The ability to create distance with a target, the ability to shoot and move at the same time, being rooted while attacking especially a basic attack is absolutely horrible and would hope it stays as shown here. the potential option of a short or long bow. The attack progression with the short bow being faster with lower damage seems like such a good balance between that and the long bow. I also enjoy the slight trail left behind after arrows are behind shot. Really like to see little things like that. Also: NO AMMUNITION
My only gripe, and not even around the class itself, the sounds seemed a little exaggerated with basic attacks and a little in general I think. But, that's obviously not a huge concern as that can be tuned and manipulated. The sound itself was awesome, though.
I easily have around 20,000 hours across MMOs and where I was able to use a bow, if done correctly and enjoyable, I played it. Where it sucked, I played it. I have been following Ashes for years and since day 1 I have been waiting for Ranger reveal and I am more than happy with what I saw today. Thank you!
P.S. Steven, I hope you're feeling okay. Cough was a little sus on stream.
It's not about it being like New World, personally, I despised New World.
The main problem is, the current ranger system is complete tab, with downsides in being in action mode. For a game to have a hybrid system, it has to be that, hybrid.
From everything currently shown, you could lock a target, run away, jump and 180 degree shoot, rinse and repeat, with high damage. Everyone always says they want mobility, but mobility needs to have a purpose, otherwise you get your typical floaty combat. The one thing that excels in action orientated mmo's, is you have to make your hits count, and your relocation and positioning matters. You'd see skill shots used, and smart execution of movement/relocation skills to create distance from your target. Where as tab target mmo's with the current system that was shown are just run, jump, and spam a button, on top of having relocation skills which end up pushing them over the top as you can no brain your way to victory, and just makes a class over powered.
As is now, you just run, jump, and pew pew away. Tab players have advantages, while action users who aim, and are slowed by moving backwards are and being aware of the scene before them are disadvantaged, in a system that is suppose to cater to both. You can't have a system that benefits one group while hurting the other, that is bad design, and leads to a game that "has to be played this way", which is a belief Steven personally himself has said he does not want as it's common in mmo's to have "Ideal Mix Maxed Builds".
There are only two solutions that I can see, either heavily nerf movement when shooting any auto or skill, shortbow being less so, which literally had no reduction this demo....As well as no jump shooting, and forcing you to look at your target.
Or B, add aiming elements to force a person to focus on a target and put effort into it, which solves the running pew pew aspect and forces a user to tactically think about using their skills, while also giving action users an element that they want in a Hybrid system...which is the entire point of having a hybrid system, action combat elements added...Where as right now, it's entire tab from what was shown, while masquerading as action with a "reticule" mode.
I'm a veteran gamer here, was brought up on traditional tab target MMO's, in the very early 2000's, but times are changing, there is a reason why Ashes had a poor rep on combat before, and the community wanted more, the current iteration is just trying to cater to the old ways of tab target, without bending in a notable way. They are asking for advice for a reason, so better not to blast on anyone and let the forum be for thoughts/discussions/debates....That's what they are asking for, we just have to provide....Just to state, we are not in a small minority here with these thoughts.
I hope there are at least a few rewarding skillshot mechanics for bows/ranged weapons.
Snipe should 100% be a skillshot.
I would also love to see the action combat auto attack being a skillshot, but I also understand the complexity and difficulty in balancing it. New world has a massive aimbot problem as the upper tiers of rifles can just 1v10 with headshots. I also know in a ZvZ calculating bodyhit scans and dmg calcs would add to the stress of the fights. BUT I personally would like the ability to outplay players by having a higher skill ceiling than them. If I remember Steven wanted a headshot multiplier ect with ranged weapons, and If that stays despite no free-aim autos, the %chance just becomes crit chance ect. Though again, I feel that would be a missed mechanic.
I love the idea of projectiles being blockable. Big win there.
I also didn't see any projectile drop mechanics. Hopefully, at the very least ,on the more skillshot style of the class we have the ability to fire OVER the front line, especially if the arrows are intercept-able.
I heavily lean more to the side of high mobility archers like Primeval in Archeage. But I also dont mind the turret playstyle of just hunker down and pump out damage. So having those options would be nice.
The things I would love to see added is possibly the quiver to add specific type of effects to the projectiles. I think this would make for an interesting dynamic.
I hope they add on to the acrobatic side of rangers. The acrobatics we saw where mind blowing.
Lastly, the ability to be hidden. Not full stealth but somewhat camouflaged with the environment, maybe unable to move without losing camouflage. Could be helpful for long bows.
Otherwise I’m very happy with what I have seen this far. Great work!
With that said, some ways to make action targeting more beneficial could be allowing headshots for guaranteed crits, and removing the range restriction that tab-target will have. This will allow for skilled, long-distance gameplay that makes ranged weapons enticing for many players.
Also the longbow should be twice as long
Edit: After reading more feedback, I agree that there should not be any benefit to action combat users because it would essentially force everyone to use it.
However, unrelated to the Ranger showcase, I'm not a fan of what Steven said around the 2:52:00 mark on the Twitch VOD: "you are able to hot swap between weapons in your hotbar during combat but not your armor and gear". I like the fact that you cannot hot swap armor and gear during combat and I wish you also couldn't hot swap to unequipped weapons during combat for probably the same reasons you can't hot swap armor and gear. What's the thought process behind allowing players to hot swap from a two handed longsword to a one handed sword + shield (two weapons that share the same melee slot) during combat?
I believe that allowing players to hot swap between unequipped weapons adds more possibilities and uncertainties to combat but it allows players to quickly change their playstyle on a whim during combat, which I'm not sure it's a positive aspect for a game in which decisions should matter. In other words, if you get jumped with the "wrong" equipped weapons and gear in a specific situation, I'd hope that you'd be forced to deal with it instead of being able to swap out your dual daggers during combat for a 2 handed shield to try to tank the damage for longer.
What aspects of the basic range weapon attacks are important to you?
- The most important thing about archery in games is feeling. What you showed today is great. You can feel the weight of every each attacks, skills, in addition, the sounds are at a very high level which is also very important.
When it comes to Ranger archetype fantasy, what are you wanting to see and not wanting to see?
- In my opinion, it will be very important to balance the ratio of auto attack to the use of skils. Question for players:
- Would you prefer a ratio of 70/30 (70% use skills and make up the gap between CD on AA ?)
- Would you prefer a ratio of 30/70 ( 30 % skills / 70 % AA).
Are there types of basic range weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
-Archer has to rely on his mobility, it would be good to add some sytsem which properly used increases mobility. For example, in LOL Lucian with each autoattack reduces the CD for using the dash. It feels great.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the basic range weapon attacks and the Ranger archetype?
1.Basic attacks and skills that were shown today look brilliant. The attacks have the right weight and look like ultra fun. If the game came out tomorrow, I'm already fully satisfied with the ranger class (my class!).
2. From what we could see, you really need to learn to fight with the ranger class. You need a lot of in-game experience to master the gameplay and it requires strategy/preparation. (Unless Steven has never played games before). I like the fact that it's not enough to just press buttons randomly. Surviving in dangerous areas looks like a real challenge.
3. You should reconsider whether a player should physically have arrows in his inventory. It is a small thing that adds a lot of cool immersion. I think any ranger will understand what I mean.
Few things that I picked up and consider as a true masterpiece
1. The minotaurs look brilliant. They look more like a real player than an NPC. MASTERPIECE
2. I don't know if I saw it right, but it seemed to me that the hood had torn holes for the ears. MASTERPIECE
3. Sound of arrows. MASTERPIECE (Sound of pulling the string could be better)
One thing I'm not entirely convinced about
- Lighting in the game is way too bright imo. It looks like a pernament flashbang on your face.
Moment when we look directly at the light looks great and has the basis to blind us. This can also be successfully used as a strategy, when attacking or fleeing. But the moment we don't look directly into sun, we are blinded even by the shiny cloak. The environment is also overexposed, so that we can't even see exactly the wonderful animations and monster designs you've created. Even though we are playing with a third-person view, I would like to feel like I am looking through my character's eyes. So I would like to be more aware of my surroundings instead of being blinded by it.
I am glad that I will live to see such a game. Great job and looking forward to the next stream!
This auto hit system feels a bit disappointing.
A way for incentivization is to make the action combat better, but harder to learn. Similar to free aim in GTA, while most players use the assisted aim it is buggy and sometimes messes you up. So in my honest opinion it just needs to have more of a higher skill ceiling in order to have more usage of it. Maybe a way of doing this is the assisted target includes a .2 sec extra channeling for the ability and action does not, but action is harder while tab is easier ya know.
Please DO NOT make action stronger in ANY way, it would force people to abandon tab even if they prefer it.
I absolutely hate action and I'm so happy you have a propre tab target system.
MISSING: Enemy health bars above their heads - nameplates.
It's just like in every MMO including daoc and warhammer online.