Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
An excellent point that I truly think is a matter of opinion in this case. However I will say store 1 isn't just hundreds of varieties, its dozens of individual types, millions of varieties, store 2 is hundreds of types.
PVP has: spells, augments, 64 classes, gear, reactive players, learning players + 1200 km^2 of battle locations.
PVE has: spells, augments, 64 classes, gear, reactive players, + only the locations that these mobs exist in.
reactive being to the content that is going on player to player or player to enemy
learning is players changing the way to play based on the other side, something an enemy will not do outside of base code.
You cannot quantify the number of variations that exist for a player to player interaction, you can for a player to enemy interaction. Your example is excellent you are right, technically the distinction between a PVE battle and a PVP battle can be larger, but they can't provide you but a few dozen truly unique special PVE raids, so yeah PVE might get 100 unique products, but PVP will get 100 unique products and infinite variations.
In this case being unique can be, caravans, guild wars, castle sieges, node sieges, freehold fights, gathering fights, ship battles, underwater fights, dozens other ones, but the point is, you can get so specific inside every single PVP scenario and it changes how it is played because its PVP. for example a siege will literally provide dozens of unique battles inside it.
The funniest thing would be if so many PvE players joined the game, that they actually ended up making the game PvE lol.
Imagine mayors investing heavily into bounty hunters and the majority of players never going purple.
You are incorrect this is a pvx game so those players are pvx players, clearly you seem to be trying to push pve in your post without realizing what ashes is doing with PvX thinking it is some tacked on title like pvp in WoW which is not the chase.
So you say you are not a troll yet you are trying to imagine weird things, funny.
[/quote]
The funniest thing would be if so many PvE players joined the game, that they actually ended up making the game PvE lol.[/quote]
You actually didn't get my point at all. It doesn't matter how many PvEers join, they won't change the design choices. Imo it also won't matter, how many PvPers will play the game and how loud they express themselfs. It won't be a PvP game either.
You didn't get my point.
I was just saying it would be funny if most of the players simply chose not to engage in PvP.
It doesn't matter how the game is designed if players actively chose to ignore PvP.
Imagine everyone just building up nodes and never actually sieging other nodes. And no one ever flagging for PvP or contesting open world content or caravans.
I'm not saying that's gonna happen I'm just pointing out it would be funny.
This is incorrect.
PvP is limited buy the classes and gear in the game.
PvE is not.
The funny thing about location, 99% of the time in PvP it doesn't matter. When it does matter, it is usually a really small consideration. Saying it is something that adds variety to PvP is disingenuous, especially when you incorrectly say that PvE is limited by classes and gear.
As to reactive play, for the most part, players are more predicable than top end encounters. Any given class usually only has one way to play it against any other given class. 95% of all players use the same basic strategy.
While PvE can only do what it is scripted to do, there is often more variety in that script than there is in what a player is likely to do.
An example of this is a mob that every 30 seconds may summon any of 5 different sets of adds (all of which require different strategies), or may fire off one of three different AoE's (each of which needs a different counter).This is a fairly low end mob, and every 30 seconds it can do one of 8 different things, and does not always do the thing that is the best for it to do at that point in time.
Players almost never have 8 options that are viable - or at least not 8 options that will require vastly different actions from their opponent.
Now, I fully accept that these things don't apply to PvE in games like BDO, or L2, or Archeage. However, those games don't really have PvE - they have mobs that exist in the game doer the express purpose of encouraging players to fight.
PvP is far more difficult than any PvE, End game PvP is far more difficult than any end game pve raid.
The exact same way players adapt to the scripted element of pve content, knowing the challenges, etc. Every time you do it things get easier. Fighting a player that is good will adapt to you and continue to improve.
Not to mention getting more gear in the game as that is also a progression that is only one sided in PvE where it is two sided in PvP.
I would say 75% PvE / 5% OWPVP / 20% organized PvP is from 3 - 9pm (currently planned)
Arguing with Noaani it's an exercise in futility, I wouldn't recommend it.
Im guessing your new, him and I prob have over 100 pages of that...i don't enjoy it tbh.
Statistically incorrect.
In end game PvP, the side with the most players is most likely to win.
As such, there is a greater than 50% chance that any one player in a top end PvP fight will be on the winning side.
In top end PvE, that number goes down to single digits, if you want to talk about individual pulls as the resolution we are discussing rather than a full night, the winning percent for players in top end raiding g drops below 1%. Guilds will often spend months on a top end encounter, pulling it dozens of times a night, losing every time.
Then, when they finally get a kill, it is still fairly normal for any subsequent kill attempts to take a dozen or more attempts. It is not unusual to walk away unsuccessfully from a night of attempting a top end encounter that you have already killed, and in good games, they only have a few months of one per week kills before it is no longer top end content.
This means you will spend often 60 or more nights, each night with 25 or more pulls, trying to work out how to kill an encounter that you will then only kill perhaps 10 - 12 times, and will still die to it 10 or more times on subsequent kills.
To say PvP is harder is to say you dont understand top PvE - let alone that you have never participated in it.
You are incorrect you need to be doing end game pvp that requires team work and when a game has action combat / hybrid as well that ups the levels compared to previous mmorpgs. (your mention of not knowing what duel for spot on BDO shows you also didn't do end game pvp in that game.)
Knowing mechanics and what to expect takes time, that does not mean they are difficult it simply means you need to spend time figuring it out and once you do it becomes easy, as well as muscle memory knowing and seeing the exact same mechanics. You can spend months trying to win a big pvp fight and never beat certain players due to their skill and knowledge elements, having to spend many more hours to practice and improve. Lets say you are a raising guild and get some better members and maybe you finally beat them, you better bet they will improve and adapt to overcome you.
PvE content does not hold a candle to the tenacity, versatility and growth of players not to mention all the people int he world on the game. Be it small or big changes, you will see more iteration in players than any pve content. The more complex the game and the combat and it is uncountable compared to PvE content.
If you want to make a argument for older tab target mmorpgs not taking much skill that is fair to make that judgement and we can look at the types of pvp combat in those games. Only because you can attempt to say it wans't skill that mattered but gear was the defining answer.
It's because of comments like this.
Low end PvE sees you dealing with the same mechanics, and muscle memory is all it takes once you've killed a mob once and figured it our.
Top end PvE though, that doesn't work. You aren't facing the same mechanics, and muscle memory simply will not get you through.
Your comments also make me think you have never participated in top end PvP. You mentioned about about dueling in BDO - that isnt top end PvP. You also talked about learning from fighting a good player - that isnt top end PvP in an MMO either.
Top end PvP in an MMO is guild or faction based. You dont fight 1 on 1 in top end PvP. If you think you do, then not only do you not know what top end PvE is, but you also dont know what top end PvP is. All you know in regards to top end is your few days at the top end in one shit fighting game - easy to be top 10 when only 30 people are playing.
And unless the game's pvp balance is completely out of whack, there's usually at least a few parties on the server that can beat yours more often than not (this would be the "when they finally get a kill, it is still fairly normal for any subsequent kill attempts to take a dozen or more attempts" part), especially if there's RPS balancing.
And, just as you said, there's always the potential of the other side bringing in more people, so even if your side is at the very peak of power - you can still get into situations where the odds are against you, while the fight also requires you to be at your best performance.
And the "winning" is always subjective. I don't care that in pvp "a player" has won if I was the loser. To me there's no difference between "a player" winning against me a "a mob", because in both cases I am the one who lost. And until I win against whichever target I chose, there won't be "a win" state.
And it's the same for the other side if they lose. They might've gotten zerged by some huge guild or a boss rng triggered several wipe mechanics one after the other and they didn't manage to avoid them. Both instances would probably feel "unfair". And if the boss doesn't have that kind of rng, that'd mean that it's scripted and it'd be way easier than pvp.
I've had boss encounters that took over 1k attempts to kill the first time ( not many encounters fit this, but it is more than 1 encounter).
What's the most attempts at a single PvP situation you've had?
Then you have to consider that the harder it is for you, the easier it is for the other side. Top end PvP is thus - in aggregate - neutral in difficulty.
And I've seen people quit the game because they felt like fighting those guilds was useless due to them being way too strong. And even after we joined up with a few other guilds, we still couldn't beat our enemies fully, though we did get closer. Those enemies were pretty much the strongest guild on the server, so in terms of "quality" of pvp, I'd say that we were going up against the best possible pvp content on that server.
Have there been cases where people stopped playing the game, or at least attempting the boss, during those 1k tries? I'd assume there must've been at least someone who had lost all hope. Cause if not, I'd say we were going up against worse odds
Going to debunk your post hard right now pretty easily
PVE
You are getting into the weeds pointlessly about terms used which does not make a lot of sense if you read my post. If you are doing PvE and you have seen mechs and understand them, have a good idea of the flow of the gameplay you are going to know what to do on command it is a skill thing.
IE Boss is doing this, that means you know to use whatever set of skills, or movements to solve the mech as you get use to it. Hense increasing your muscle memory on the boss you are fighting.
TOP End PvE bosses don't suddenly get new skills, when you have seen the mechs, understand the skills you know how to approach them and what to do as you are being affected under it based on the content. If you did not gain muscle memory, you are effectively not improving during the content.
IF you are assuming I'm saying all bosses do the exact same thing in the exact same pattern you are LITERRIALY putting words in my mouth. That is a bad faith argument to assume I'm saying something I'm not to fit your agenda.
That being said bosses have different stages and new things get introduced, and those things you under and again gain muscle memory for as you learn how to approach the new things the boss does and tackle the challenge making it much easier over time.
~~~~~ PVP ~~~~~
If you think thre isn't top end PvP from dueling you are mistaken, BDO literarily has tournaments for pvp 1v1. So right there you do not know what you are talking about, and that isn't even waht i was meaning to bring up....
What i mean when i know you haven't done top end BDO pvp is because you do not know what duel for spot means, which further goes towards you were not at any significant spot in BDO to make money and be competitive gear wise. If you are not at those spots, it means you are not doing node wars or siege or not competitive in the least in it with a lack of gear.
Long story short meaning you did not do any significant real large battles on BDO over the duration of the game. As it is impossible to not see duel for spot in BDO do to the karma system and mechanics in valencia, as it is again one of the most common things in the game. People even leave the dungeon to fight in BA and duel there away from mobs.
Dying 1000 times does not mean all those deaths were hard, the question is AFTER how many times you died to mechanics you had a full understanding on how they worked and a strong method for dealing with those mechanics.
Not understanding a mechanic can lead to many deaths as you try to figure out how it works and how to approach it. No one is going to argue against there being more unique encounters in a PvE experience in figuring things out. But arguing something being difficult because it is new is not a big thing to me, it is about the challenge after you understand it if its difficulty holds up. It's like fighting a new class you don't understand that is added, it has the same level of difficult as you don't know what to expect (unless you researched it already).
The unique challenges is what makes the PvE content fun and worthwhile though, eventually it becomes stale as I've said before.
https://reddit.com/r/classicwowtbc/comments/uhojgz/is_tbc_pve_harder_than_pvp/
Well, things changed from Debate of Concepts to Debate of Opponents, so the variety would tend to go down.
I mean, this is kind of my point.
And when you then apply the zerg potential to the equation, you have yourself a never-ending fight for dominance. And in PvE you don't really have that kind of fight. Well, you do, but it's just a "fight" against rng and more about your ability to react/adapt to sudden changes in the encounter rather than a more wholistic skillset of controlling your enemy, knowing their reactions, triggering those reactions at correct times rather than just reacting yourself, and changing your party/raid composition to properly address your enemy's changes in composition (be it an increase in numbers or a changeup in classes).
Btw, were there any EQ2 bosses that changed their mechanics between fights so completely that they required a different set of classes or gear? That is, not while you were trying to figure out how to beat the boss, but after that.
There are many assumptions in this response that don't apply. It would take long to detail them all and derail yet another thread into 'You haven't actually fought hard PvE yet'.
But I can tell you that FFXI has multiple bosses where 'Which party composition you need to take to it depends on the weather, time of day, and which day of the week it is in game'.
Some depend on 'has anyone else killed this other boss recently'.
Very few, but some, are 'what phase of the Moon is it?'
Sometimes these things are entirely emergent, in ways I can barely even begin to describe. But things like:
"Ok it's Darksday so we have to bring a different Tank, but we can bring a different healer and we don't need the Bard for it on Darksday." are a thing.
And those don't always even depend on the BOSS changing. If the boss also changes (which they do), you have to factor it. To the point of 'KILL IT BEFORE SUNRISE, WE DON'T HAVE THE PERSON WE NEED TO BEAT IT IN THE DAYTIME'. And then realizing you can't kill it before sunrise because the weather just changed and your Black Mage's best spells all got 10% damage reduction.
RIP.