Is the goal truly PvX?

This is a general question on both how players interpret Intrepid Studio's vision, as well as what players actually desire.

I seem to see a general consensus that PvP is the main focus. But I'm wondering is PvE really even a big part of the game? Sure there are NPC mobs and bosses but their importance seems to be dwarfed by the ability to PvP around them. Most people seem to only want their PvE if it also has PvP.

Rust is a PvP game, just because PvE elements exist in Rust doesn't mean people call it a PvX game.

So is this game PvX? Or is it just a PvP game?

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

That describes a game for PvPers; not PvEers.
So it's a PvP-centric game... and then PvX can mean whatever PvPers want it to mean.

Dygz, it can't be a pvx game w/o requiring both sides of the spectrum. I know that pvers hate pvp, which is why they shouldn't play games that make them do pvp. But if those pvers want to play the game either way - they'll have to put up with pvp in just the same way as pvpers put up with pve.

The same goes for pvpers. If you want to only pvp - the game's not for you.

I didn't say I wanted to only PvP. I don't hate PvP. (I don't like PvPers.) I like PvP sometimes.
But, if there is a permanent PvP zone where everyone who enters it is auto-flagged to Combatant, like the Open Seas, that is a PvP-centric game.
And I think most PvEers will not play a PvP-centric game.
Again, PvX is just hype to try to get PvEers to play Ashes. I think it does nothing to convince people who typically play on PvE-Only servers to play a PvP-centric game.

Dygz

superhero6785 wrote: »

PvE content are things like - Main Story Quests, Side Quests, Dungeons, Instanced Raids. Things where the objective during participation do not involve fighting any other players.

PvP content would be things like - Arenas, Open World Combatants, Castle Sieges, Node Sieges, Caravans. Things where the objective expressly includes fighting other players. (This is where League of Legends sits, FYI)

PvX takes those elements and mixes them - Open World Raids, World Bosses, Corruption (killing & stealing from gatherers, defending a farming spot, etc.). These are things that don't necessarily require fighting other players, but has the potential to break out into PvP.

LMAO.
Uh hunh. But...
I notice you completely left out the Open Seas.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

I didn't say I wanted to only PvP. I don't hate PvP. (I don't like PvPers.) I like PvP sometimes.
But, if there is a permanent PvP zone where everyone who enters it is auto-flagged to Combatant, like the Open Seas, that is a PvP-centric game.
And I think most PvEers will not play a PvP-centric game.
Again, PvX is just hype to try to get PvEers to play Ashes. I think it does nothing to convince people who typically play on PvE-Only servers to play a PvP-centric game.

Yeah, as we've discussed before, I agree that open seas change was definitely a push towards the pvp side of the spectrum. But until they tell us what's in those seas, outside of the "ohhh, there's, like, so much cool stuff there and it's, like, so valuable that you just HAVE to pvp for it", I can't say if I fully agree with your dislike for it. I understand why you dislike it, but if all the explorable content is locked behind hardcore pve (that's supposedly the stuff that you gotta pvp for) - I'd assume you wouldn't be able to explore that stuff either way, at which point there'd be nothing for you in the open seas.

if that was the case, would you still be against playing the game? Well, in the context of other non-pvp traversal across the seas and obviously the coastline being corruption-based.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

But until they tell us what's in those seas, outside of the "ohhh, there's, like, so much cool stuff there and it's, like, so valuable that you just HAVE to pvp for it", I can't say if I fully agree with your dislike for it.

While I agree with your general perspective of "we dont know what there is out there", take the following in to consideration.

In Ashes, each player character is an amalgamation of three different class spheres.

There is their combat class, consisting of their primary and secondary archetypes. Then we have crafting class, which includes all skills and ability the character has to make things.

Then we have the third sphere - our naval class.

Now, while we don't know what naval content will entail, it is not unreasonable based on the above to assume that naval content will be roughly the same size as crafting.

Knowing Steven, the ocean is where all of the best gear will come from (which seems odd to need to level up one sphere in order to get gear for a different sphere, but I'll put money on the best gear requiring naval action).

So, essentially, to someone like Dygz, they have just had a very important chunk of the game equal in size to crafting ripped away from them.

This is why I fully understand Dygz' position here, and consider such announcements so deep in to development to be unacceptable from Intrpid.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

So, essentially, to someone like Dygz, they have just had a very important chunk of the game equal in size to crafting ripped away from them.

This is why I fully understand Dygz' position here, and consider such announcements so deep in to development to be unacceptable from Intrpid.

While your assumption is a logical one, considering AA being one of the inspirations, Dygz is still a mostly explorative pve player. And he said in the past that hardcore content is not really his forte. So if exploration (outside of literally empty open waters) is blocked by huge bosses or super strong mobs that can hunt you throughout the open seas (I'd personally love those) - I'd assume Dygz wouldn't be able to explore the stuff that's locked behind those mobs/bosses.

But right now we got no details about any of that. Which is why I'm gonna wait for more details to really see what the design gonna be. I already have enough assumptions about different systems of the game that will most likely not fit the reality of the game. Don't wanna add yet another assumption onto that.

CROW3

NiKr wrote: »

But right now we got no details about any of that. Which is why I'm gonna wait for more details to really see what the design gonna be. I already have enough assumptions about different systems of the game that will most likely not fit the reality of the game. Don't wanna add yet another assumption onto that.

This is pretty much my 2 cents on the last 4 days of phrenetic tizzy over one 'influencer's' video. Just chill and wait until we have something to see and test. There's no forcing function for a decision on anything yet. Especially for those of us where it's a sunk cost.

Savic Prosperity

for what we have seen it does come across as largely a pvp game; but i think its just easier to talk about those systems than say a boss design cause thats more of seeing it in action. If someone asked me to try to describe an end game raid boss design from ffxiv it's hard to make it make sense with just words so those systems are probably to be fleshed out during or post alpha 2

for me we are currently still too early to say if it is going to be largely pvp with a side dish of pve or more of the pvx feeling
...although I personally would be disgruntled if the only option for BIS gear is in open pvp zones . Currently, my expectation is having several different paths to best armor/weapon mats for crafting so its just personal preference on approach. (i feel like this is likely since steven at some point mentioned making sure the best stuff is crafted so mats are easy to place around)

Ludullu

Savic wrote: »

...although I personally would be disgruntled if the only option for BIS gear is in open pvp zones . Although my expectation is having several different paths to best armor/weapon mats for crafting so its just personal preference on approach. (i feel like this is likely since steven at some point mentioned making sure the best stuff is crafted so mats are easy to place around)

BiS mats and drops themselves will only come from open world bosses, so, yes, you'll have to pvp for them against anyone else trying to get them.

Savic Prosperity

NiKr wrote: »

Savic wrote: »

...although I personally would be disgruntled if the only option for BIS gear is in open pvp zones . Although my expectation is having several different paths to best armor/weapon mats for crafting so its just personal preference on approach. (i feel like this is likely since steven at some point mentioned making sure the best stuff is crafted so mats are easy to place around)

BiS mats and drops themselves will only come from open world bosses, so, yes, you'll have to pvp for them against anyone else trying to get them.

i cant remember the name but i mean like how the sea is just open pvp vs the land is more choice pvp
the words are escaping me lol

Ludullu

Savic wrote: »

i cant remember the name but i mean like how the sea is just open pvp vs the land is more choice pvp the words are escaping me lol

The chances are, you'll need a strong guild to even have a chance at the boss itself. And with a strong guild come strong war enemies. At which point you'll have ffa pvp even outside of the open seas.

Savic Prosperity

NiKr wrote: »

Savic wrote: »

i cant remember the name but i mean like how the sea is just open pvp vs the land is more choice pvp the words are escaping me lol

The chances are, you'll need a strong guild to even have a chance at the boss itself. And with a strong guild come strong war enemies. At which point you'll have ffa pvp even outside of the open seas.

that is what it currently looks like being so pvp heavy on information we have gotten, but we will see if anything changes over time. I wouldnt be surprised, just disappointed, if the end game material aquiring is just the same thing with a different background. It feels like we could get more complex alternatives than just big slow boss + guild war. Although that is just Hopium lol

Ludullu

Savic wrote: »

It feels like we could get more complex alternatives than just big slow boss + guild war. Although that is just Hopium lol

Which is exactly why some of us have been asking for more PvE talk. There are ways of having "instanced" bosses that still have pvp linked to their farm.

But having pvp linked to the boss farm is an integral part of the PvX equation of Ashes. So if you dislike having pvp around your pve, the game might not be a good fit for you.

Depraved

Dygz wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

That describes a game for PvPers; not PvEers.
So it's a PvP-centric game... and then PvX can mean whatever PvPers want it to mean.

Dygz, it can't be a pvx game w/o requiring both sides of the spectrum. I know that pvers hate pvp, which is why they shouldn't play games that make them do pvp. But if those pvers want to play the game either way - they'll have to put up with pvp in just the same way as pvpers put up with pve.

The same goes for pvpers. If you want to only pvp - the game's not for you.

I didn't say I wanted to only PvP. I don't hate PvP. (I don't like PvPers.) I like PvP sometimes.
But, if there is a permanent PvP zone where everyone who enters it is auto-flagged to Combatant, like the Open Seas, that is a PvP-centric game.
And I think most PvEers will not play a PvP-centric game.
Again, PvX is just hype to try to get PvEers to play Ashes. I think it does nothing to convince people who typically play on PvE-Only servers to play a PvP-centric game.

you are 100% correct. however, it doesnt matter if its bob or joe playing the game. if bob the pve guy doesnt wanna play, theres a slot for joe the pvp guy.

this game is made for people who enjoy both. a cooperative-competitive game where you can do pvp and pve

Savic Prosperity

NiKr wrote: »

Savic wrote: »

It feels like we could get more complex alternatives than just big slow boss + guild war. Although that is just Hopium lol

Which is exactly why some of us have been asking for more PvE talk. There are ways of having "instanced" bosses that still have pvp linked to their farm.

But having pvp linked to the boss farm is an integral part of the PvX equation of Ashes. So if you dislike having pvp around your pve, the game might not be a good fit for you.

my personal biggest issue is going to be i like to be by myself in an mmo world (curse being anti social even online) more so than the pvp since the game will be very group oriented but in group settings i dont mind pvp for the most part

I think the core of it for me is I dont want all forms of end game materials to feel exactly the same; big ocean boss + pvp or big land boss + pvp would feel very similar but i dont have an answer to what other format they could do to shake it up; i just hope they can have more dynamic options beyond big boss + pvp. If it happens to only be that it would just be unfortunate

Ludullu

Savic wrote: »

I think the core of it for me is I dont want all forms of end game materials to feel exactly the same; big ocean boss + pvp or big land boss + pvp would feel very similar but i dont have an answer to what other format they could do to shake it up; i just hope they can have more dynamic options beyond big boss + pvp. If it happens to only be that it would just be unfortunate

But that's the only type of content where you can push your players to their gameplay limits. Doing some cute quest by running around and maaaybe solving puzzle is not really pushing anyone who has above room temp IQ (Fahrenheit-wise). But having a boss that has several different mechanics all stacked up onto each other, and all those mechanics require players to do different actions in synergy and at correct timings - all of that pushes people to do their best. And when you add the factor of "if you want to farm the boss - you gotta go through other people who want the same thing", you now added additional difficulty to the equation, and it's also a different kind of difficulty.

Both of those things are considered to be peak gameplay by most people (well, that is if it's properly balanced and designed of course). And Intrepid wants legendary gear to be the best and most prestigious thing in the game, which is why the only way to get it is through boss fights and pvp.

And if you were talking purely about the design of the boss - yes, I also hope that it's not just a stationary big boi who you unload all of your abilities into.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

So, essentially, to someone like Dygz, they have just had a very important chunk of the game equal in size to crafting ripped away from them.

This is why I fully understand Dygz' position here, and consider such announcements so deep in to development to be unacceptable from Intrpid.

While your assumption is a logical one, considering AA being one of the inspirations, Dygz is still a mostly explorative pve player. And he said in the past that hardcore content is not really his forte. So if exploration (outside of literally empty open waters) is blocked by huge bosses or super strong mobs that can hunt you throughout the open seas (I'd personally love those) - I'd assume Dygz wouldn't be able to explore the stuff that's locked behind those mobs/bosses.

But right now we got no details about any of that. Which is why I'm gonna wait for more details to really see what the design gonna be. I already have enough assumptions about different systems of the game that will most likely not fit the reality of the game. Don't wanna add yet another assumption onto that.

I find it unlikely that ocean bosses would be gate keeping content.

Since the primary purpose of the ocean is likely to be trade, they are not likely to put in mobs like you are talking about.'

To relate it to how Archeage did it, there was some solo content between the two continents, there were exactly three spawns of what could be considered sub-par group content (they were rarely ever killed), then there were exactly two raid mobs on set spawn timers in set locations (one of which had a set path, the other was stationary). Both of these mobs were in locations where it was easy to avoid if you wanted to.

From there, the ocean had randomly spawning deep sea fishing location, an underwater area that was about on par with the games dungeons (again, sub-par) and contained an instance, and there were also several locations in the ocean (and on random small islands) that made fairly devcent out of the way farming spots.

On top of all of that, there were treasure chests - probably the content type that would most appeal to someone like Dygz.

Since Ashes so far seems to basically just be taking things directly from other games with only one or two new ideas thrown in, the above is basically what I expect Ashes ocean content to be.

Of all actual content in Ashes, I would have expected treasure chests to be the thing that most appealed to someone like Dygz.

Obviously this is all some assumptions, but we don't have anything better to go on at this stage.

worddog2

NiKr wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

Doesn't leveling kind of count as Open World PvP though because you're always under threat and you can always threaten others? I understand it's not direct PvP but from a PvE perspective just the possibility of PvP is a pretty big difference.

Which is exactly why the game is called pvx. You have both pve and pvp at the same time. And in most cases you need both to progress.

superhero6785 wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

Doesn't that definition just make most PvP games PvX? Like is League of Legends a PvX game because there is a jungle with neutral NPC enemies?

Is Fortnite PvX because they have enemy NPCs?

When I say PvX I'm not asking does PvE content exist, I'm just asking about the focus of the game. Sure you can technically call Fortnite a PvX game but I'm asking in terms of reality, like what should people actually expect.

If you're comparing a typical MMO's PvE content to the League of Legends jungle objectives, then you're down a rabbit hole we cannot pull you out of.

PvE content are things like - Main Story Quests, Side Quests, Dungeons, Instanced Raids. Things where the objective during participation do not involve fighting any other players.

PvP content would be things like - Arenas, Open World Combatants, Castle Sieges, Node Sieges, Caravans. Things where the objective expressly includes fighting other players. (This is where League of Legends sits, FYI)

PvX takes those elements and mixes them - Open World Raids, World Bosses, Corruption (killing & stealing from gatherers, defending a farming spot, etc.). These are things that don't necessarily require fighting other players, but has the potential to break out into PvP.

If anyone says you don't have to engage in PvP, they mean you don't have to participate in specified PvP activities. You can be a PvE focused player, however you will always live within the PvX world with the potential to come across someone who wants to kill you. Even if it's only during your short travel between town and an instanced dungeon.

In league of legends I literally kill jungle monsters for 20 minutes without PvPing and kill the jungle objectives without PvPing and then only start PvPing when either my team is losing really hard or I have my core items. If that doesn't count as PvE idk what does.

And obviously I could be attacked at any time but that would make it PvX no?

Also there are those challenges where people win games with 0 damage dealt to enemies lol.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Obviously this is all some assumptions, but we don't have anything better to go on at this stage.

And if those assumption will prove to be real, then I'll completely understand why Dygz wouldn't want to play the game.

worddog2

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Obviously this is all some assumptions, but we don't have anything better to go on at this stage.

And if those assumption will prove to be real, then I'll completely understand why Dygz wouldn't want to play the game.

I mean we'll all play the game. It's just a matter of how many months.

Okeydoke

*years.

Months for most other modern mmos, if not days. If even at all.

Child Item