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Is the goal truly PvX?

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Comments

  • Okeydoke wrote: »
    *years.

    Months for most other modern mmos, if not days. If even at all.

    Is that in response to my comment? I just meant like you have to pay a monthly subscription, so when people don't want to pay anymore they quit.
  • .
    worddog wrote: »
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    *years.

    Months for most other modern mmos, if not days. If even at all.

    Is that in response to my comment? I just meant like you have to pay a monthly subscription, so when people don't want to pay anymore they quit.

    nice
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Strevi wrote: »
    .
    worddog wrote: »
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    *years.

    Months for most other modern mmos, if not days. If even at all.

    Is that in response to my comment? I just meant like you have to pay a monthly subscription, so when people don't want to pay anymore they quit.

    nice

    I'm confused
  • worddog wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    .
    worddog wrote: »
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    *years.

    Months for most other modern mmos, if not days. If even at all.

    Is that in response to my comment? I just meant like you have to pay a monthly subscription, so when people don't want to pay anymore they quit.

    nice

    I'm confused
    ...
    and then if the game is good then people will continue to subscribe and that subscription provides funding and revenue for the developers to continue a significant content creation and expansion rollout for the game.[10] – Steven Sharif
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Obviously this is all some assumptions, but we don't have anything better to go on at this stage.
    And if those assumption will prove to be real, then I'll completely understand why Dygz wouldn't want to play the game.

    I mean we'll all play the game. It's just a matter of how many months.

    My time is more valuable to me than the $500 I've put on the game so far.

    If the game is not something that I am fairly sure I will play for years, I won't even play it for minutes.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    But until they tell us what's in those seas, outside of the "ohhh, there's, like, so much cool stuff there and it's, like, so valuable that you just HAVE to pvp for it", I can't say if I fully agree with your dislike for it. I understand why you dislike it, but if all the explorable content is locked behind hardcore pve (that's supposedly the stuff that you gotta pvp for) - I'd assume you wouldn't be able to explore that stuff either way, at which point there'd be nothing for you in the open seas.
    You dont have to agree with my dislke for it. I would not expect a PvPer to dislike being auto-flagged for PvP.
    I expect to PvPers to think the Open Seas is great and that people who don't want to be auto-flagged would be happy to just stay out of the Open Seas if they don't want to be auto-flagged.

    NiKr wrote: »
    if that was the case, would you still be against playing the game? Well, in the context of other non-pvp traversal across the seas and obviously the coastline being corruption-based.
    If the Open Seas included Corruption, I would have to test to see if Corruption is a sufficient deterrent for PvP - just as have to test that on land.
    Could be that Corruption would not be a sufficient deterrent and I would still consider Ashes to be too PvP-centric for me to play. Which is why I'm not advocating to change the current design for the Open Seas.
    Open Seas with Corruption does not guarantee I would play.
    It's just that Open Seas without Corruption inherently means Ashes is too PvP-centric for me. I don't have to test to determine that is a feature for a PvP-centric game.

    All content locked behind hardcore PvE is not really a thing and would not deter me from exploring.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Depraved wrote: »
    you are 100% correct. however, it doesnt matter if its bob or joe playing the game. if bob the pve guy doesnt wanna play, theres a slot for joe the pvp guy.

    this game is made for people who enjoy both. a cooperative-competitive game where you can do pvp and pve
    But... I enjoy both PvP and PvE.
    "If the PvE guy doesn't want to play, there's a slot for the PvP guy" also isn't a valid claim.
    For one thing, there are no "slots" preventing people who want to play from playing.
    For another, on MMORPGs that have PvP, PvP-Optional and PvE-Only servers... the servers with the highest populations are the PvE-Only servers.

    But, since there are only a couple of popular PvP-centric MMORPGs around, there's a decent chance that Ashes can attract enough players to stay alive without those players who typically play on PvE-Only servers.
    PvX isn't really about PvEers, though. It's really about PvPers being required to do some PvE.
    It's kinda like when Steven is asked about supporting RPers, he will say, "Of course Ashes supports RPers."
    But, when you grill him for details, he says weird stuff like players can RP in taverns or that Ashes will, of course, have emotes.
    What he really means is PvPers will be able to do some minimal RP.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    BiS mats and drops themselves will only come from open world bosses, so, yes, you'll have to pvp for them against anyone else trying to get them.
    You don't have to PvP to obtain BiS mats and drops.
    Someone probably does. But... that's what friends and neighbors and guild banks and bartering and selling are for.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    if that was the case, would you still be against playing the game? Well, in the context of other non-pvp traversal across the seas and obviously the coastline being corruption-based.
    If the Open Seas included Corruption, I would have to test to see if Corruption is a sufficient deterrent for PvP - just as have to test that on land.
    Could be that Corruption would not be a sufficient deterrent and I would still consider Ashes to be too PvP-centric for me to play. Which is why I'm not advocating to change the current design for the Open Seas.
    Open Seas with Corruption does not guarantee I would play.
    It's just that Open Seas without Corruption inherently means Ashes is too PvP-centric for me. I don't have to test to determine that is a feature for a PvP-centric game.

    All content locked behind hardcore PvE is not really a thing and would not deter me from exploring.

    I've seen mixed messages about corruption.
    But probably it will be balanced to make both PvP-ers and PvE-ers unhappy. There is no other way.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    For, sure, there will be some people on the extreme ends of the PvP/PvE spectrum who are unhappy, even when Corruption is as balanced as possible.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    You don't have to PvP to obtain BiS mats and drops.
    Someone probably does. But... that's what friends and neighbors and guild banks and bartering and selling are for.
    Well yeah, in the bigger picture of gear acquisition both pve and pvp most likely happened in order to get that gear. But unless you have some very good and powerful friends - ya ain't getting that gear anytime soon, because the people who did the pveing and pvping to have the right to get the gear will most likely keep doing that until they put all of their members in said gear (or at least the core power parties of the guild) and only then start redistributing that gear to other people.

    There's a small chance that these kinds of guilds would be so preoccupied with farming stuff that they, somehow, would not have any money to do other things, while other guilds did the opposite - and they'd trade one for the other, but I somehow doubt that Ashes will have that kind of design. Though who knows, I might be wrong in that assumption.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I dunno what you mean by "right".
    Just because someone obtained the mats via combat doesn't mean that same person can Craft the desired BiS gear. Similarly, the person who can Craft BiS gear may not be able to obtain BiS gear.
    And all of that assumes that the only reason to adventure in an area that has BiS mats and drops is to obtain those BiS mats and drops.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I dunno what you mean by "right".
    Just because someone obtained the mats via combat doesn't mean that same person can Craft the desired BiS gear. Similarly, the person who can Craft BiS gear may not be able to obtain BiS gear.
    Someone has to get the mats to do the craft. If the mob/boss/quest is super difficult then only the people who have the skill to overcome that difficulty will get the mats. And when we're talking about open world dungeons, there's also pvp being added to that equation, so the people with the skills to beat the pve content will have to go through pvp content as well. Be that by just pvping themselves or by paying mercs or just having guildies who do the pvp for them.

    The ones who did all of that and got the mats had "the right" (or, well, earned it rather) to get them, because they've overcome hardships to achieve their goal. Yes, they'll still have to utilize help of crafters (most likely from their guild) and gatherers and processers (probably also from their guild), but w/o mats you wouldn't be able to do the craft in the first place.
    Dygz wrote: »
    And all of that assumes that the only reason to adventure in an area that has BiS mats and drops is to obtain those BiS mats and drops.
    Well, we were talking about methods of BiS gear acquisition and not adventuring, which is why I didn't mention other reasons to be in a dungeon, let along around a world boss.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    Someone has to get the mats to do the craft. If the mob/boss/quest is super difficult then only the people who have the skill to overcome that difficulty will get the mats. And when we're talking about open world dungeons, there's also pvp being added to that equation, so the people with the skills to beat the pve content will have to go through pvp content as well. Be that by just pvping themselves or by paying mercs or just having guildies who do the pvp for them.
    Um. No.
    Some people will have to do whatever dangerous stuff is necessary to obtain the BiS related mats.
    That's not everyone.


    NiKr wrote: »
    The ones who did all of that and got the mats had "the right" (or, well, earned it rather) to get them, because they've overcome hardships to achieve their goal. Yes, they'll still have to utilize help of crafters (most likely from their guild) and gatherers and processers (probably also from their guild), but w/o mats you wouldn't be able to do the craft in the first place.
    Dygz wrote: »
    And all of that assumes that the only reason to adventure in an area that has BiS mats and drops is to obtain those BiS mats and drops.
    Well, we were talking about methods of BiS gear acquisition and not adventuring, which is why I didn't mention other reasons to be in a dungeon, let along around a world boss.
    Your concept of "earned" here is irrelevant.
    You can expect that there will be players who consider Master Crafters to have "earned" access to BiS mats by virtue of their skills at Crafting. And other people will have "earned" access based on whatever value they bring to the relationship(s) besides combat.
    Just because some - or even most - people will rely on combat to obtain BiS gear mats does not mean that everyone will.

    And I can be fairly certain this will be true in Ashes because Ombwah works as a dev on Ashes and that's the way his gaming community works.
  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Noaani wrote: »

    Even with a class system like Ashes is set to have, there is a hundred times more variety possible in PvE than there is in PvP.

    Okay technically there would be millions of encounters if you took 64 classes + augments to the probably hundreds of bosses and dozens of legendary raids, but you are absolutely wrong, no matter how many PVP encounters you have, they will never be the same, ~40ish abilities for 8 classes, add in augments, make it 8v8 what AOC is balancing the game around (therefore expecting the standard encounter to be) and you already have a greater number of potential variations, more importantly, a boss or raid, is only code, it will never truly change, it might randomize ability sets, scale based on dps or other things, but it will not change. You wanna 8vX me? You will never have the same fight twice, purely because humans can LEARN, PVE does not have the ability to match human interactions sure PVE difficulty can scale based on code, but it doesn't fluctuate when players have an off day or a good day, nor does it adapt during the middle of the fight based off the enemy, sure a boss can change if you cast a certain ability, but the boss won't strafe a different way based on skill shots cast.

    Stop saying PVE has more variety, its just short sighted.
    Wanna know why it takes a superconductor days to map a way to win in strategy games vs humans, because it has to map billions of strategies, and those test have been done with games that have 5-10 mechanics, imagine a game like AOC with hundreds of mechanics, it would take months to map out enough possibilities to match a human.

    Games with limited interactions (chess) cannot apply here as there is a finite number of possibilities, unlike a player to player interaction.

    It is why mobas have millions of players running 1000's of hours on them on the same map day in day out.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    Even with a class system like Ashes is set to have, there is a hundred times more variety possible in PvE than there is in PvP.

    Okay technically there would be millions of encounters if you took 64 classes + augments to the probably hundreds of bosses and dozens of legendary raids, but you are absolutely wrong, no matter how many PVP encounters you have, they will never be the same, ~40ish abilities for 8 classes, add in augments, make it 8v8 what AOC is balancing the game around (therefore expecting the standard encounter to be) and you already have a greater number of potential variations, more importantly, a boss or raid, is only code, it will never truly change, it might randomize ability sets, scale based on dps or other things, but it will not change. You wanna 8vX me? You will never have the same fight twice, purely because humans can LEARN, PVE does not have the ability to match human interactions sure PVE difficulty can scale based on code, but it doesn't fluctuate when players have an off day or a good day, nor does it adapt during the middle of the fight based off the enemy, sure a boss can change if you cast a certain ability, but the boss won't strafe a different way based on skill shots cast.

    Stop saying PVE has more variety, its just short sighted.
    Wanna know why it takes a superconductor days to map a way to win in strategy games vs humans, because it has to map billions of strategies, and those test have been done with games that have 5-10 mechanics, imagine a game like AOC with hundreds of mechanics, it would take months to map out enough possibilities to match a human.

    Games with limited interactions (chess) cannot apply here as there is a finite number of possibilities, unlike a player to player interaction.

    It is why mobas have millions of players running 1000's of hours on them on the same map day in day out.

    I've been saying this for ages lmao, there is a reason why people make guides and you have a good outline how to beat a boss as you know what it does and what to expect. PvE does not compare to how players grow, pvp is the ultimate environment of that.
  • Imagine this game was released without the sea area being accessible would you still play it? If so just pretend the sea area doesn’t exist. I’m sure the content in the sea isn’t needed to play this game.
  • Voxtrium wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    Even with a class system like Ashes is set to have, there is a hundred times more variety possible in PvE than there is in PvP.

    Okay technically there would be millions of encounters if you took 64 classes + augments to the probably hundreds of bosses and dozens of legendary raids, but you are absolutely wrong, no matter how many PVP encounters you have, they will never be the same, ~40ish abilities for 8 classes, add in augments, make it 8v8 what AOC is balancing the game around (therefore expecting the standard encounter to be) and you already have a greater number of potential variations, more importantly, a boss or raid, is only code, it will never truly change, it might randomize ability sets, scale based on dps or other things, but it will not change. You wanna 8vX me? You will never have the same fight twice, purely because humans can LEARN, PVE does not have the ability to match human interactions sure PVE difficulty can scale based on code, but it doesn't fluctuate when players have an off day or a good day, nor does it adapt during the middle of the fight based off the enemy, sure a boss can change if you cast a certain ability, but the boss won't strafe a different way based on skill shots cast.

    Stop saying PVE has more variety, its just short sighted.
    Wanna know why it takes a superconductor days to map a way to win in strategy games vs humans, because it has to map billions of strategies, and those test have been done with games that have 5-10 mechanics, imagine a game like AOC with hundreds of mechanics, it would take months to map out enough possibilities to match a human.

    Games with limited interactions (chess) cannot apply here as there is a finite number of possibilities, unlike a player to player interaction.

    It is why mobas have millions of players running 1000's of hours on them on the same map day in day out.

    Is that why you like PvP? I've never viewed PvP as the more "interested and varied" game format. Isn't the entire point of PvP competition? There really isn't that much variation between PvP fights, it always comes down to who played closer to perfection. PvP is about doing the right thing faster than the other person.

    PvE is more interesting and varied because bosses and NPC enemies don't have to be balanced to be equal to the player. They can have crazy massive abilities and stats.

    PvP is awesome, but it's literally the most repetitive game type.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    worddog wrote: »
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    Even with a class system like Ashes is set to have, there is a hundred times more variety possible in PvE than there is in PvP.

    Okay technically there would be millions of encounters if you took 64 classes + augments to the probably hundreds of bosses and dozens of legendary raids, but you are absolutely wrong, no matter how many PVP encounters you have, they will never be the same, ~40ish abilities for 8 classes, add in augments, make it 8v8 what AOC is balancing the game around (therefore expecting the standard encounter to be) and you already have a greater number of potential variations, more importantly, a boss or raid, is only code, it will never truly change, it might randomize ability sets, scale based on dps or other things, but it will not change. You wanna 8vX me? You will never have the same fight twice, purely because humans can LEARN, PVE does not have the ability to match human interactions sure PVE difficulty can scale based on code, but it doesn't fluctuate when players have an off day or a good day, nor does it adapt during the middle of the fight based off the enemy, sure a boss can change if you cast a certain ability, but the boss won't strafe a different way based on skill shots cast.

    Stop saying PVE has more variety, its just short sighted.
    Wanna know why it takes a superconductor days to map a way to win in strategy games vs humans, because it has to map billions of strategies, and those test have been done with games that have 5-10 mechanics, imagine a game like AOC with hundreds of mechanics, it would take months to map out enough possibilities to match a human.

    Games with limited interactions (chess) cannot apply here as there is a finite number of possibilities, unlike a player to player interaction.

    It is why mobas have millions of players running 1000's of hours on them on the same map day in day out.

    Is that why you like PvP? I've never viewed PvP as the more "interested and varied" game format. Isn't the entire point of PvP competition? There really isn't that much variation between PvP fights, it always comes down to who played closer to perfection. PvP is about doing the right thing faster than the other person.

    PvE is more interesting and varied because bosses and NPC enemies don't have to be balanced to be equal to the player. They can have crazy massive abilities and stats.

    PvP is awesome, but it's literally the most repetitive game type.

    You are mixing up pvp with PvE. Nothing is more repetitive than PvE. Players adapt and change meaning PvP is the least kind of repetitive content and shown in games for decades being so.

    If you haven't done high tier player vrs player you are to young in the genre to seen the full depth of how things go. Meaning you have plenty more pvp content to experience if you can get there.
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    Even with a class system like Ashes is set to have, there is a hundred times more variety possible in PvE than there is in PvP.

    Okay technically there would be millions of encounters if you took 64 classes + augments to the probably hundreds of bosses and dozens of legendary raids, but you are absolutely wrong, no matter how many PVP encounters you have, they will never be the same, ~40ish abilities for 8 classes, add in augments, make it 8v8 what AOC is balancing the game around (therefore expecting the standard encounter to be) and you already have a greater number of potential variations, more importantly, a boss or raid, is only code, it will never truly change, it might randomize ability sets, scale based on dps or other things, but it will not change. You wanna 8vX me? You will never have the same fight twice, purely because humans can LEARN, PVE does not have the ability to match human interactions sure PVE difficulty can scale based on code, but it doesn't fluctuate when players have an off day or a good day, nor does it adapt during the middle of the fight based off the enemy, sure a boss can change if you cast a certain ability, but the boss won't strafe a different way based on skill shots cast.

    Stop saying PVE has more variety, its just short sighted.
    Wanna know why it takes a superconductor days to map a way to win in strategy games vs humans, because it has to map billions of strategies, and those test have been done with games that have 5-10 mechanics, imagine a game like AOC with hundreds of mechanics, it would take months to map out enough possibilities to match a human.

    Games with limited interactions (chess) cannot apply here as there is a finite number of possibilities, unlike a player to player interaction.

    It is why mobas have millions of players running 1000's of hours on them on the same map day in day out.

    Is that why you like PvP? I've never viewed PvP as the more "interested and varied" game format. Isn't the entire point of PvP competition? There really isn't that much variation between PvP fights, it always comes down to who played closer to perfection. PvP is about doing the right thing faster than the other person.

    PvE is more interesting and varied because bosses and NPC enemies don't have to be balanced to be equal to the player. They can have crazy massive abilities and stats.

    PvP is awesome, but it's literally the most repetitive game type.

    You are mixing up pvp with PvE. Nothing is more repetitive than PvE. Players adapt and change meaning PvP is the least kind of repetitive content and shown in games for decades being so.

    If you haven't done high tier player vrs player you are to young in the genre to seen the full depth of how things go. Meaning you have plenty more pvp content to experience if you can get there.

    I've played at the highest ranks in PvP games. I was LE and played with Global Elites in CS:GO, I was Masters in SC2, and in Lost Ark I was top 500 and I would've been at least top 200 if I didn't quit the game.

    Sure there are obviously better players than me, but when they beat me it wasn't some kind of crazy new mechanic or interesting strategy. They were literally just faster. The most important thing in high level PvP is reaction time and apm. The game is actually more interesting in low level PvP because that's where people actually try new things. At high level everyone is doing the same few things that are proven to work better than everything else. It's repetitive but fun because you can compete to see who is the best.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    worddog wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    worddog wrote: »
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    Even with a class system like Ashes is set to have, there is a hundred times more variety possible in PvE than there is in PvP.

    Okay technically there would be millions of encounters if you took 64 classes + augments to the probably hundreds of bosses and dozens of legendary raids, but you are absolutely wrong, no matter how many PVP encounters you have, they will never be the same, ~40ish abilities for 8 classes, add in augments, make it 8v8 what AOC is balancing the game around (therefore expecting the standard encounter to be) and you already have a greater number of potential variations, more importantly, a boss or raid, is only code, it will never truly change, it might randomize ability sets, scale based on dps or other things, but it will not change. You wanna 8vX me? You will never have the same fight twice, purely because humans can LEARN, PVE does not have the ability to match human interactions sure PVE difficulty can scale based on code, but it doesn't fluctuate when players have an off day or a good day, nor does it adapt during the middle of the fight based off the enemy, sure a boss can change if you cast a certain ability, but the boss won't strafe a different way based on skill shots cast.

    Stop saying PVE has more variety, its just short sighted.
    Wanna know why it takes a superconductor days to map a way to win in strategy games vs humans, because it has to map billions of strategies, and those test have been done with games that have 5-10 mechanics, imagine a game like AOC with hundreds of mechanics, it would take months to map out enough possibilities to match a human.

    Games with limited interactions (chess) cannot apply here as there is a finite number of possibilities, unlike a player to player interaction.

    It is why mobas have millions of players running 1000's of hours on them on the same map day in day out.

    Is that why you like PvP? I've never viewed PvP as the more "interested and varied" game format. Isn't the entire point of PvP competition? There really isn't that much variation between PvP fights, it always comes down to who played closer to perfection. PvP is about doing the right thing faster than the other person.

    PvE is more interesting and varied because bosses and NPC enemies don't have to be balanced to be equal to the player. They can have crazy massive abilities and stats.

    PvP is awesome, but it's literally the most repetitive game type.

    You are mixing up pvp with PvE. Nothing is more repetitive than PvE. Players adapt and change meaning PvP is the least kind of repetitive content and shown in games for decades being so.

    If you haven't done high tier player vrs player you are to young in the genre to seen the full depth of how things go. Meaning you have plenty more pvp content to experience if you can get there.

    I've played at the highest ranks in PvP games. I was LE and played with Global Elites in CS:GO, I was Masters in SC2, and in Lost Ark I was top 500 and I would've been at least top 200 if I didn't quit the game.

    Sure there are obviously better players than me, but when they beat me it wasn't some kind of crazy new mechanic or interesting strategy. They were literally just faster. The most important thing in high level PvP is reaction time and apm. The game is actually more interesting in low level PvP because that's where people actually try new things. At high level everyone is doing the same few things that are proven to work better than everything else. It's repetitive but fun because you can compete to see who is the best.

    Lost ark had some of the worst pvp in a mmorpg ive ever seen... There is more to just reaction time else you are just talking about basic level and not high end pvp as far as any game. If the game is designed around a meta working in any game then I'd say you haven't played a high end competition.

    Low end is not interesting and not really a challenge unless you are also low end and it is more of a even fight. As with any game the further you progress and understand you will need to fight people of equal level else you will be able to beat people not as good pretty clearly as you know what they will do.

    Winning is not repetitive and the steps you are taking to win should not be repetitive if you are fighting someone of equal skill. Soul calibur as an example, if you are doing the same thing against someone of high end skill, they are going to be able to see your motions and predict to punish you...This applies to mmorpgs depending how deep the combat is, if they see or know of you always doing the same rotation they will be about to counter you with their skills. The reason why pvp is good and fun is the unpredictable element and avenues that allowed for more unpredictable elements. When you get into group fights 8v8 with depth of combat and skill you are going to have an even bigger amount of things that aren't as easy to predict and clearly not be the same. Those people will refine their skills, refine their knowledge of you, and refine their kits ever growing until one is ontop.

    This does not happen with PvE nor should it imo as things should be a set challenge and difficult you can overcome and have fun. Then eventually moving onto the next challenge, but when you know the challenge, what the boss doesn't going to adapt like a person or has that drive to improve and win.

    You could attempt to argue the gains of variation could be smaller at the top do to less competition based on the game, but it was far exceed anything pve related if that was even the case you wanted to argue. The important thing is yes the end game, but having the mid game for people to be able to fight and improve, ensuring more people are working towards tot he top and continuing to have that challenge and reason to grow than becoming stagnate because you are simply at the top.


    Long story short, players grow, improve, change PvE does not and is more a series of unique challenges.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    worddog wrote: »



    I mean we'll all play the game. It's just a matter of how many months.

    except dygz.

    I just dont think the PVE only crowd will accept it as PvX until they can 100% control when they want to PVP.

    The PvX in my opinion is that they are intertwined.. you will have to deal with pve mobs while pvping and you will have to deal with hostile players sometimes while pveing.

    That, to me, is the PVX. Not... i will pvp for one hour then go pve for six hours... That is not this game and, I for one, hope it never is.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Noaani wrote: »



    Since the primary purpose of the ocean is likely to be trade, they are not likely to put in mobs like you are talking about.'


    450px-SSLivestream-2022-03-31-1%3A10%3A38.96.png

    You may have the most forum posts, but i think you pretty regularly just make things up.
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Lust69 wrote: »
    Imagine this game was released without the sea area being accessible would you still play it? If so just pretend the sea area doesn’t exist. I’m sure the content in the sea isn’t needed to play this game.

    Not good enough... because other people will have access to it. that is unbearable to them.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    Even with a class system like Ashes is set to have, there is a hundred times more variety possible in PvE than there is in PvP.

    Okay technically there would be millions of encounters if you took 64 classes + augments to the probably hundreds of bosses and dozens of legendary raids, but you are absolutely wrong, no matter how many PVP encounters you have, they will never be the same, ~40ish abilities for 8 classes, add in augments, make it 8v8 what AOC is balancing the game around (therefore expecting the standard encounter to be) and you already have a greater number of potential variations, more importantly, a boss or raid, is only code, it will never truly change, it might randomize ability sets, scale based on dps or other things, but it will not change. You wanna 8vX me? You will never have the same fight twice, purely because humans can LEARN, PVE does not have the ability to match human interactions sure PVE difficulty can scale based on code, but it doesn't fluctuate when players have an off day or a good day, nor does it adapt during the middle of the fight based off the enemy, sure a boss can change if you cast a certain ability, but the boss won't strafe a different way based on skill shots cast.

    Stop saying PVE has more variety, its just short sighted.
    Wanna know why it takes a superconductor days to map a way to win in strategy games vs humans, because it has to map billions of strategies, and those test have been done with games that have 5-10 mechanics, imagine a game like AOC with hundreds of mechanics, it would take months to map out enough possibilities to match a human.

    Games with limited interactions (chess) cannot apply here as there is a finite number of possibilities, unlike a player to player interaction.

    It is why mobas have millions of players running 1000's of hours on them on the same map day in day out.

    I mean, this isnt how it works.

    If you have a player attack you, get killed, respec and change one spell and then attack you again, that isnt really variety of enemies.

    Also, players aren't really going to use a variety of tactics - they are always going to try to use the best tactic for their build, and they are likely to try to use the best build for their class. For the most part, people that deviate from this will simply get trodden all over.

    In practice, the variety you get in PvP is minimal - even if you can calculate it to be fairly high by mislabeling some things as variety.

    In practice, every PvE encounter (at the top end, in a game that cares about top end PvE) is different. They use different ability sets from what players use, and employ different tactics to what players employ. Additionally, they have access to every ability that players have, plus any the developers wish to create for them.

    So, in both theory and practice, there is more variety in PvE than in PvP.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Abarat wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »



    Since the primary purpose of the ocean is likely to be trade, they are not likely to put in mobs like you are talking about.'


    450px-SSLivestream-2022-03-31-1%3A10%3A38.96.png

    You may have the most forum posts, but i think you pretty regularly just make things up.

    While I may have the most posts here, it seems I also have the most replies to posts where people haven't read said post.

    I didnt say the ocean wont have raid encounters - in fact if you actually bothered to read the post before replying to it (or bothered reading the post I was replying to), you would see that I specifically said what kind of raid encounters I expect to see in the ocean.

    The bosses I do not expect to see in the ocean are ones that will hunt after players (it's literally right in the quote I was replying to).

    So, after saying I dont expect raid bosses in the ocean to hunt players, and then saying what i do expect from raid bosses in the ocean, what is the point of you "calling me out" by showing a picture of an ocean boss that would fit the bill perfectly of one of the encounters I said I expect to see?

    Or did you only get two sentences through the post, not understand the context, get all excited that you thought you had some means of catching me out and rushed to post it without actually understanding what I had said?

    I mean, either way, you literally just quoted a post where I said what raid encounters I expect to see in the ocean, said I have no idea what I am talking about, and posted a picture of one of the raid encounters I just said I expect to see as proof (for those paying attention, the above mob is what I expect to be a roaming ocean boss akin to Archeages Leviathan).
  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Abarat wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »



    Since the primary purpose of the ocean is likely to be trade, they are not likely to put in mobs like you are talking about.'


    450px-SSLivestream-2022-03-31-1%3A10%3A38.96.png

    You may have the most forum posts, but i think you pretty regularly just make things up.

    While I may have the most posts here, it seems I also have the most replies to posts where people haven't read said post.

    I didnt say the ocean wont have raid encounters - in fact if you actually bothered to read the post before replying to it (or bothered reading the post I was replying to), you would see that I specifically said what kind of raid encounters I expect to see in the ocean.

    The bosses I do not expect to see in the ocean are ones that will hunt after players (it's literally right in the quote I was replying to).

    So, after saying I dont expect raid bosses in the ocean to hunt players, and then saying what i do expect from raid bosses in the ocean, what is the point of you "calling me out" by showing a picture of an ocean boss that would fit the bill perfectly of one of the encounters I said I expect to see?

    Or did you only get two sentences through the post, not understand the context, get all excited that you thought you had some means of catching me out and rushed to post it without actually understanding what I had said?

    I mean, either way, you literally just quoted a post where I said what raid encounters I expect to see in the ocean, said I have no idea what I am talking about, and posted a picture of one of the raid encounters I just said I expect to see as proof (for those paying attention, the above mob is what I expect to be a roaming ocean boss akin to Archeages Leviathan).

    That is clearly also made up.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Its PvX. You mainly focus on progressing through PVE content through dungeons, raids, professions, exploration, leveling, nodes, etc. You fight for the ability to attain that PVE content through PVP, while also providing a sort of cycle to make sure things are destroyed so other things can progress and repeat the process in different ways.

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  • SpifSpif Member, Alpha Two
    World bosses as a driver of PvP needs to have relatively quick spawns or set/announced spawn times considering that travel times are going to mean something in this game. A character only getting rewards for a specific boss once a day can make this not worth camping.

    IMO the main problem with world bosses is that they get zerged down (no challenge), or the zergy-est side wins (we'll see how zergbusting is in this game). And if the zerg doesn't win, it just comes back bigger next time or gives up.

    This doesn't include world bosses or events that take you to instanced combat areas of course with limited people per side. I can see there being some of those too.

    I don't think that world bosses will be the only source of BiS crafting mats. PvE raids (the time gates ones) will likely have a chance for them too, and there should be other sources (PvP arena ranking giving weekly rewards maybe) But killing world boss will give you another chance at them, gearing you up faster.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Spif wrote: »
    I don't think that world bosses will be the only source of BiS crafting mats. PvE raids (the time gates ones) will likely have a chance for them too, and there should be other sources (PvP arena ranking giving weekly rewards maybe) But killing world boss will give you another chance at them, gearing you up faster.
    BiS will be craftable and legendary stuff will only come from world bosses.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Best-in-slot_items

    There's currently no plans on rewarding gear for arena battles
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas#Arena_ladder
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