@Arya_Yeshe I disagree with you here. WoW was the best mmo I have played when it comes to gear balance. I mean, have you ever played Aion or Archeage where p2w dominated? In AA a p2w player could wipeout a whole raidgroup in 5 seconds.
That's the paradox in RPG MMOs these days, the game runs around building your character but companies hide the pvp gear behind pve grinds
No, they hide the gear behind the game.
Again, if you want PvP without PvE, play a lobby game that simply doesnt have that PvE.
Your analogy of a wood cutter not being able to cut wood until they have done hundreds of hours of PvP is flawed, because the reverse is not true.
Sure, a player will need to PvE in order to get good gear and get to the level cap, but they are not prevented from PvP'ing during this period.
If that player wanted to cut wood complained that they had to PvP, I would point out to them that in playing this game, they signed up for both woodcutting AND PvP, and they shouldn't then complain about being able to do both at the same time - especially when their complaint is actually that they only want to do one of the two things they signed up to do, and so that being the case they should have signed up for a game that only had woodcutting.
What you have done here - inadvertently - is hit upon my long standing reason as to why MMO's focusing on PvP simply do not work. MMORPG's are the wrong genre for people that just want to PvP. Outright PvP, where it is purely about players skill vs each other, is far better suited to match based gameplay, not to games with a persistent world.
This is the situation Crowfall tried to remedy with it's design.
At the end of the day though, if you are signing up for an MMORPG that has a persistent world, expect to have to play in that persistent world. If you do not want that - with ALL that this entails - play a lobby game instead.
I mean, that is why lobby games exist, to give people that only want to play part of a game somewhere to play that part of the game.
Arya_Yeshe I disagree with you here. WoW was the best mmo I have played when it comes to gear balance. I mean, have you ever played Aion or Archeage where p2w dominated? In AA a p2w player could wipeout a whole raidgroup in 5 seconds.
I mean, this is an exaggeration.
If a pay to win player is beating a full raid (40 players in Archeage), then literally everyone in that raid was asleep. Even just a single group (5 people) would have been a hard fight for someone that spent a quarter million on their gear - and that is assuming those 5 players put no effort at all in to their gear.
Or, someone like me that spent years in the game, worked a lot of land (I had control of a third of all player land in Marcala for well over a year), and using a combat tracker to create a build to break the three popular builds, can come in and decimate that player that spent all that money.
Archeage absolutely was pay to win, but it's gear was balanced. It just took time to beat a big wallet.
For a good example of what PvX means, look at Black Desert and Archeage, you'll be able to PvP at any time and there will be systems specifically for PvP like arenas and such, but PvE will be a huge and larger part of the game. PvE players dont have anything to worry about, ashes WILL be a game for them, no doubt.
Recently though it seems like there's a ton of fearmongering around "always-on" pvp and AoC being a PvP game, which simply is not true, what people mean by always on pvp is really just the flagging system in BDO, but the corruption system will be much harsher in Ashes compared to karma in BDO in order to prevent griefing.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2022
PvP is not always on in BDO.
I have never been attacked by another player in BDO.
I consider ArcheAge to be PvP-centric.
For a good example of what PvX means, look at Black Desert and Archeage, you'll be able to PvP at any time and there will be systems specifically for PvP like arenas and such, but PvE will be a huge and larger part of the game. PvE players dont have anything to worry about, ashes WILL be a game for them, no doubt.
Recently though it seems like there's a ton of fearmongering around "always-on" pvp and AoC being a PvP game, which simply is not true, what people mean by always on pvp is really just the flagging system in BDO, but the corruption system will be much harsher in Ashes compared to karma in BDO in order to prevent griefing.
As an avid Not-Enjoyer of BDO:
You can't be attacked until level 50, and you must choose to level above that.
Karma does not affect most people, our server's resident perma-red Ninja just does as they like at all times.
There is nothing to protect in BDO, nothing drops, and the only loss most of the time is time if you weren't geared to the teeth in very specific ways or your Crystals break, neither of which are necessary for 'the sort of person who enjoys being Perma-Red'.
BDO is also not what most could define as a good PvE game.
Just because there IS an Environment doesn't mean there's a 'Versus'. If you don't go explicitly looking for a challenge, you can level and grind in BDO successfully without ever seeing your health drop until another player arrives.
'PvE' is just something to do to watch your bankroll tick up while you wait for an attacker, and they intend it that way.
That's the paradox in RPG MMOs these days, the game runs around building your character but companies hide the pvp gear behind pve grinds
No, they hide the gear behind the game.
Again, if you want PvP without PvE, play a lobby game that simply doesnt have that PvE.
Your analogy of a wood cutter not being able to cut wood until they have done hundreds of hours of PvP is flawed, because the reverse is not true.
Sure, a player will need to PvE in order to get good gear and get to the level cap, but they are not prevented from PvP'ing during this period.
If that player wanted to cut wood complained that they had to PvP, I would point out to them that in playing this game, they signed up for both woodcutting AND PvP, and they shouldn't then complain about being able to do both at the same time - especially when their complaint is actually that they only want to do one of the two things they signed up to do, and so that being the case they should have signed up for a game that only had woodcutting.
What you have done here - inadvertently - is hit upon my long standing reason as to why MMO's focusing on PvP simply do not work. MMORPG's are the wrong genre for people that just want to PvP. Outright PvP, where it is purely about players skill vs each other, is far better suited to match based gameplay, not to games with a persistent world.
This is the situation Crowfall tried to remedy with it's design.
At the end of the day though, if you are signing up for an MMORPG that has a persistent world, expect to have to play in that persistent world. If you do not want that - with ALL that this entails - play a lobby game instead.
I mean, that is why lobby games exist, to give people that only want to play part of a game somewhere to play that part of the game.
I became level 80 in Guild Wars 2 just doing PvP and it was wonderful, so what you said is just your opinion, it's not a real thing and in there I found more people who only did PvP
I am still sticking with:
-how a carebear would feel if he had to run 100 hours of arena just to get a better axe so he could cut trees?
This is the problem about soulbound stuff with no loot drops
If pvpers can buy their stuff, then it's fine... if pvp gear is all soulbound behind a wall of carebearing pve then its sad
People should be able to grind pve for pve stuff and be able to grind pvp for pvp stuff, or simply craft or buy
Hopefully the mix of PvX will bring extreme danger to the dungeons and a lot of PvP there and PvPers will actually be required to escort the soft mushy greedy drone ant behaving bot aspirant carebears in their endless hoarding
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2022
Ashes just has gear. No difference between PvP gear and PvE gear.
Almost nothing is soulbound.
According to the current design.
I became level 80 in Guild Wars 2 just doing PvP and it was wonderful, so what you said is just your opinion, it's not a real thing and in there I found more people who only did PvP
So, play GW2 then?
I am still sticking with:
-how a carebear would feel if he had to run 100 hours of arena just to get a better axe so he could cut trees?
Probably the same as a PvP player that wants to PvP but cant for a hundred hours.
Not sure what the point of this is though, since you are not talking about Ashes. In Ashes, that PvP player is able to attack players from day 1.
People should be able to grind pve for pve stuff and be able to grind pvp for pvp stuff, or simply craft or buy
This would require segregating PvP and PvE gear from each other.
Since Intrepid specifically do not want to do this, it isnt an option.
Further,since the point of Ashes is for wealth/items to be created via PvE and redistributed via PvP, if the game started seeing PvP create wealth/items, it would then need to come up with a way to redistribute that via PvE.
This is now turning Ashes in to a totally different game.
What I will say though, is that since you can and will PvP while leveling up, and since you can and will PvP in order to gain wealth and then use that wealth to buy gear, your issues are kind of moot anyway.
You are basically arguing that a game that is not Ashes, that has a design that is not what Ashes has, sucks.
This is a general question on both how players interpret Intrepid Studio's vision, as well as what players actually desire.
I seem to see a general consensus that PvP is the main focus. But I'm wondering is PvE really even a big part of the game? Sure there are NPC mobs and bosses but their importance seems to be dwarfed by the ability to PvP around them. Most people seem to only want their PvE if it also has PvP.
Rust is a PvP game, just because PvE elements exist in Rust doesn't mean people call it a PvX game.
So is this game PvX? Or is it just a PvP game?
This thread perfectly shows, what the whole PvP vs PvE drama, that is happening around AoC, is all about and why it is misleading. PvPers(know what REAL PvP is) and PvEers(know what REAL PvE is) take over and drown out everything and everyone else(including Steven/Intrepid).
I think, you will both be disappointed by the game. I think PvP/PvP combat will be designed to be enjoyable for casual PvPers in groups/large scale battles(REAL PvPers will hate it). PvE will be centered around economy/crafting and will require casual PvP and interaction with others(solo PvEers and dungeon grinders won't like it).
I think AoC will be/wants to be a true PvX game. Not a PvE game with PvP aspects and not a PvP game with opt in PvE content.
PvX is not just in the middle of a PvP-PvE scale. It is a different kind of game/play style.
The fundamental paradox about pvp in mmos is grind for gear for pvp, so you gotta relentlessly farm for gear so you can pvp in an optimal way... so the PvP guy will have to grind hundreds of hours for gear, which is sad, it's depressing someone who likes combat having to go through that
The thing is, ''grinding for gear'' in AOC will involve tons of PvP so you will be grinding by doing what you, as a pvp-er enjoy.
In AOC crafters will make the best gear, you will just need to get the resources from open world and open world dungeons/raids/open world bosses.
Well, guess what, running arounds for ores/trees/etc will mean lots of open world pvp and doing dungeons/raids/open world bosses will also mean tons of group pvp.
The fact is, there are good types of grinding and bad types of grinding in gaming.
As a pvp-er, I believe this here (what we see AOC aiming for) is good grinding.
How do you think this craft-only carebear will feel?
Do you think that's fair to him?
That is not jus a random lumberjack player, he is HIS GUILD's LUMBERJACK and his guild will likely want him to have his axe so he can get his guild good gear/ships/etc more than he personally will.
So you will have a whole gaming community boosting the dude for their own interest as much as his and trust me, there is little change the lumberjack (economy focused player in question) won't have fun playing with his guild friends and doing challenging stuff like this.
Also, even if the dude were to have difficulties... why would he be complaining when he choose such a PvP focused game?
I became level 80 in Guild Wars 2 just doing PvP and it was wonderful, so what you said is just your opinion, it's not a real thing and in there I found more people who only did PvP
So, play GW2 then?
I am still sticking with:
-how a carebear would feel if he had to run 100 hours of arena just to get a better axe so he could cut trees?
Probably the same as a PvP player that wants to PvP but cant for a hundred hours.
Not sure what the point of this is though, since you are not talking about Ashes. In Ashes, that PvP player is able to attack players from day 1.
People should be able to grind pve for pve stuff and be able to grind pvp for pvp stuff, or simply craft or buy
This would require segregating PvP and PvE gear from each other.
Since Intrepid specifically do not want to do this, it isnt an option.
Further,since the point of Ashes is for wealth/items to be created via PvE and redistributed via PvP, if the game started seeing PvP create wealth/items, it would then need to come up with a way to redistribute that via PvE.
This is now turning Ashes in to a totally different game.
What I will say though, is that since you can and will PvP while leveling up, and since you can and will PvP in order to gain wealth and then use that wealth to buy gear, your issues are kind of moot anyway.
You are basically arguing that a game that is not Ashes, that has a design that is not what Ashes has, sucks.
Now I understood you are just another forum troll twisting stuff, what you say is not important
/ignored
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
The fundamental paradox about pvp in mmos is grind for gear for pvp, so you gotta relentlessly farm for gear so you can pvp in an optimal way... so the PvP guy will have to grind hundreds of hours for gear, which is sad, it's depressing someone who likes combat having to go through that
The thing is, ''grinding for gear'' in AOC will involve tons of PvP so you will be grinding by doing what you, as a pvp-er enjoy.
In AOC crafters will make the best gear, you will just need to get the resources from open world and open world dungeons/raids/open world bosses.
Well, guess what, running arounds for ores/trees/etc will mean lots of open world pvp and doing dungeons/raids/open world bosses will also mean tons of group pvp.
The fact is, there are good types of grinding and bad types of grinding in gaming.
As a pvp-er, I believe this here (what we see AOC aiming for) is good grinding.
That's what I hope for, my hope is that Intrepid keeps true to it's search for a real PvX and it succeeds in this and comes a reference to be followed by many devs for many years to come
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
I became level 80 in Guild Wars 2 just doing PvP and it was wonderful, so what you said is just your opinion, it's not a real thing and in there I found more people who only did PvP
So, play GW2 then?
I am still sticking with:
-how a carebear would feel if he had to run 100 hours of arena just to get a better axe so he could cut trees?
Probably the same as a PvP player that wants to PvP but cant for a hundred hours.
Not sure what the point of this is though, since you are not talking about Ashes. In Ashes, that PvP player is able to attack players from day 1.
People should be able to grind pve for pve stuff and be able to grind pvp for pvp stuff, or simply craft or buy
This would require segregating PvP and PvE gear from each other.
Since Intrepid specifically do not want to do this, it isnt an option.
Further,since the point of Ashes is for wealth/items to be created via PvE and redistributed via PvP, if the game started seeing PvP create wealth/items, it would then need to come up with a way to redistribute that via PvE.
This is now turning Ashes in to a totally different game.
What I will say though, is that since you can and will PvP while leveling up, and since you can and will PvP in order to gain wealth and then use that wealth to buy gear, your issues are kind of moot anyway.
You are basically arguing that a game that is not Ashes, that has a design that is not what Ashes has, sucks.
Now I understood you are just another forum troll twisting stuff, what you say is not important
/ignored
In other words, I have presented some valid points you have no rebuttal to, and so would rather not.
In other words, I have presented some valid points you have no rebuttal to, and so would rather not.
What you said about redistributing items and gaining wealth through PvP is just completely wrong. No sense in arguing with you. I agree with Arya
What is "completely wrong" about it?
In Ashes, you PvE for wealth creation. This could be killing base population to gain certificates to then turn in for gold, it could be killing mobs for body parts to turn in to items, it could be harvesting raw materials, or it could be killing boss mobs for finished loot (very rarely), but more often, raw materials for crafting items.
All of these activities are generating player wealth. You are creating new money and/or items when you do these activities, not taking from other players.
Then, however, someone can come along and kill you. If they do this, they are taking a portion of the certificates or raw materials you have on you. This could be in open PvP on the ocean, it could be PvP using the corruption system (where the defender is best served by fighting back to preserve their wealth), it could be via the caravan system, it could be via the siege system, or the plundering that comes after a node siege.
Essentially, all PvP in Ashes has the potential to redistribute wealth between players and group of players, yet that wealth is generated via PvE.
The notion that - in Ashes - wealth is created in PvE and redistributed via PvP is essentially the core concept of the game.
I'm confused as to which part of it you find "so completely wrong" that there is no sense in discussing it.
This is a general question on both how players interpret Intrepid Studio's vision, as well as what players actually desire.
I seem to see a general consensus that PvP is the main focus. But I'm wondering is PvE really even a big part of the game? Sure there are NPC mobs and bosses but their importance seems to be dwarfed by the ability to PvP around them. Most people seem to only want their PvE if it also has PvP.
Rust is a PvP game, just because PvE elements exist in Rust doesn't mean people call it a PvX game.
So is this game PvX? Or is it just a PvP game?
OK, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, I think due to the genre, and companies putting a huuuuuge line through PvP/PvE was a mistake. The two never should've been separated. Ashes is a true PvX game, Player vs Everything. Too many games now days get associated wrongfully with "PvP MMO" when in reality they are a PvX. EvE Online is considered by many a PvP MMO, its not. It's PvX. New World was said to be a "PvP" game before launch, also wrong, it too was PvX before and after launch when they messed it up. Any game where you can fight mobs & players is PvX. I've never seen an MMO or heard of one that is strictly PvP as all MMOs need an element of PvE for level progression and content.
From what we know, Steven and the Team want to make Ashes of Creation a true PvX MMO, or what id like to call, what Massively Multiplayer Online Games should be and never should have diverted from. There are other MMOs that are true PvX but they are dated, so its nice to see Steven stay true to his word of keeping Ashes a PvX MMORPG. While Ashes will have heavy PvP elements, it is not a strictly PvP MMO. Again my point of, the two terms never should've been separated. There will be content for all I believe, just be wary when you travel alone, or travel in groups of friends, join a guild. Be apart of the MMO experience and have fun!
This is a general question on both how players interpret Intrepid Studio's vision, as well as what players actually desire.
I seem to see a general consensus that PvP is the main focus. But I'm wondering is PvE really even a big part of the game? Sure there are NPC mobs and bosses but their importance seems to be dwarfed by the ability to PvP around them. Most people seem to only want their PvE if it also has PvP.
Rust is a PvP game, just because PvE elements exist in Rust doesn't mean people call it a PvX game.
So is this game PvX? Or is it just a PvP game?
OK, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, I think due to the genre, and companies putting a huuuuuge line through PvP/PvE was a mistake. The two never should've been separated. Ashes is a true PvX game, Player vs Everything. Too many games now days get associated wrongfully with "PvP MMO" when in reality they are a PvX. EvE Online is considered by many a PvP MMO, its not. It's PvX. New World was said to be a "PvP" game before launch, also wrong, it too was PvX before and after launch when they messed it up. Any game where you can fight mobs & players is PvX. I've never seen an MMO or heard of one that is strictly PvP as all MMOs need an element of PvE for level progression and content.
From what we know, Steven and the Team want to make Ashes of Creation a true PvX MMO, or what id like to call, what Massively Multiplayer Online Games should be and never should have diverted from. There are other MMOs that are true PvX but they are dated, so its nice to see Steven stay true to his word of keeping Ashes a PvX MMORPG. While Ashes will have heavy PvP elements, it is not a strictly PvP MMO. Again my point of, the two terms never should've been separated. There will be content for all I believe, just be wary when you travel alone, or travel in groups of friends, join a guild. Be apart of the MMO experience and have fun!
Your premise here is basing terms on gaming as a whole, rather than using terms within a given game genre.
Terms like PvE and PvP should be used within the scope of the game genre being talked about.
By your own logic, no MMO has ever been PvE either, as you are always having to compete against other players for content - something that you don't need to do in a single player game. While it is easy to say that this is a pathetic excuse for player competition, EVE's PvE is a pathetic excuse for PvE - so if you can use EVE, I can use this.
The logical thing to then do is to take these known terms - PvE and PvP - and apply them within the scope of the genre in question. In this case, a game like EQ that is as PvE as an MMO can get can be considered an outright PvE MMO, despite the need to compete with other players. On the other end of the scale, a game like EVE can be considered a PvP MMO.
Within the scope of MMORPG's, a game that wants to be considered PvX should be attempting to fall somewhere between these two.
Arguments like the one you are making here are just arguments for Ashes to be another PvP MMO.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Also, even if the dude were to have difficulties... why would he be complaining when he choose such a PvP focused game?
I doubt this type of player will choose to play Ashes.
We shall see.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
L2 had harsh pk and pvp consequences and yet there were PvE only players and guilds that lived harmoniously within the pvx and pvp community; unscathed and independent of the pvp drama.
And with those harsh consequences it did little to tame inter-clan wars and pvp.
And for those that were pve only, this was achieved by remaining neutral and making friends!
My pvx clan happily played with pve only guilds and when the pvp occured it was very very rare they were targetted.
Considering AoC pk consequences have significantly harsher penalties, I cannot many issues happening at all once the community gets past its honeymoon period and players find their community.
I doubt this type of player will choose to play Ashes.
We shall see.
I wish you were right but the sad reality is that such players will flood Ashes of Creation when it launches.
The game is insanely hyped, and lots of people love it for the graphics, world and lore, gathering and general economy, adaptive dungeons and raids, etc without understanding it's profound PvP orientated nature.
Most of these people are corrupt the marrow having been educated by/used only to the trash-philosophy, modern mmo where leveling is trash and something you want to skip, not having your hand held like you're mentally disabled is inacceptable, dungeons and raids are the real focus and pvp a side-dish at best, seeing the world and being immersed into it is inferior to fast travel and content skipping, etc
While I am convinced many of the carebear andies who will try ashes will see the light and appreciate its healthy, solid philosophy, the fact is, a lot won't.
They won't and after having joined in the hundreds of thousands (hell, maybe millions) they will then leave en mass.
This post-early-phase, post-launch server de-population is, in my opinion, the nr.1 threath AOC will face in it's early existence at least.
The ''AOC is dead (because carebear andies, who only joined because of the hype despite being blatantly incompatible with the game's fundamentals, left en mass)" will flow in this period, sadly intimidating and de-moralizing many good-faith, compatible players.
The notion that - in Ashes - wealth is created in PvE and redistributed via PvP is essentially the core concept of the game.The notion that - in Ashes - wealth is created in PvE and redistributed via PvP is essentially the core concept of the game.
I'm confused as to which part of it you find "so completely wrong" that there is no sense in discussing it.
I'll bite, but won't go into details. It is completely wrong that this is THE core concept. Not even essentially.
PvP is always a money sink(consumables/gear degredation) and will be in AoC too. The concept to redistribute wealth/items is through trade.
Yes, there is a chance, that it will happen through PvP, but you have no idea if or how that will affect anything. Saying it is a core idea is just wrong.
I'm sure you'll have alot to say about this, but it's senseless discussing with you, because all you do is trying to proove others wrong( or trigger them to get a reaction) by throwing in some random arguments, stating stuff as facts and claiming you know how something will turn out to be,
The concept to redistribute wealth/items is through trade.
This is blatantly, totally false.
Trade does not redistribute wealth. Items sure, wealth no.
If I have a fish that you want, and it is worth 10g and I trade it to you for 10g, we each end that trade with the exact same amount of wealth.
If you kill me and take that fish, there has been a redistribution of wealth. I no longer have that 10g fish, you still have your 10g, but you also have that 10g fish. We started this interaction with 10g of wealth each, now you have 20g and I have 0g.
That is a redistribution of wealth - a trade for that fish is not.
As to how I know this is how the game will turn out to be, redistribution of wealth via PvP is from Steven, not from me. They are his words, not mine.
The notion that - in Ashes - wealth is created in PvE and redistributed via PvP is essentially the core concept of the game.The notion that - in Ashes - wealth is created in PvE and redistributed via PvP is essentially the core concept of the game.
I'm confused as to which part of it you find "so completely wrong" that there is no sense in discussing it.
I'll bite, but won't go into details. It is completely wrong that this is THE core concept. Not even essentially.
PvP is always a money sink(consumables/gear degredation) and will be in AoC too. The concept to redistribute wealth/items is through trade.
Yes, there is a chance, that it will happen through PvP, but you have no idea if or how that will affect anything. Saying it is a core idea is just wrong.
I'm sure you'll have alot to say about this, but it's senseless discussing with you, because all you do is trying to proove others wrong( or trigger them to get a reaction) by throwing in some random arguments, stating stuff as facts and claiming you know how something will turn out to be,
People making assumptions is the first way to be let down on a game. It is easier if people just accepted, they don't know how things will turn out until they are shown. One can guess but someone trying to say things as if it is fact is pretty silly. We are all learning more every month, this is something a lot of pve crowd are going to make worse for themselves by assuming things rather than waiting to see how things play out and what their intentions are in design apporach.
I doubt this type of player will choose to play Ashes.
We shall see.
I wish you were right but the sad reality is that such players will flood Ashes of Creation when it launches.
Launch is irrelevant. Tons of people try new MMORPGs and quickly stop playing.
But...PvEers are more likely to continue playing Throne and Liberty than Ashes of Creation.
Based on the current game designs.
Interesting that the creators of L2 have chosen to make their sequel more PvE-based than L2.
I doubt this type of player will choose to play Ashes.
We shall see.
I wish you were right but the sad reality is that such players will flood Ashes of Creation when it launches.
Launch is irrelevant. Tons of people try new MMORPGs and quickly stop playing.
But...PvEers are more likely to continue playing Throne and Liberty than Ashes of Creation.
Based on the current game designs.
Interesting that the creators of L2 have chosen to make their sequel more PvE-based than L2.
Doesn't specifically surprise me. L2 was 20 years ago and just looking at the two most popular mmos today and their themepark/PvE focus and the very vocal population jumping ship from Retail WoW in the past year or two. They might just be looking to take over market share if their game does pan out. Also their recent sucess (or lack thereof) in the MMO space might have seen them try a different angle from what games they put out in the early 2000s.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Interesting that the creators of L2 have chosen to make their sequel more PvE-based than L2.
If L2 PvE / PvP was measured in time played.. L2 was a PvE game.
60min PvE grind to make up a 2min PvP round death..
If L2 PvE / PvP was measured by in-game wealth.. L2 was a PvE game. No wealth from PvP but needed to work damn hard to gear up.
6 months of grinding / playing market to gear up to lose in 30 sec of PK rampage!
If L2 PvE / PvP was measured in time in combat.. L2 was a PvE game.
PvE for 10-30 hrs and may not even have a PvP round unless seeking out pvp.
I doubt this type of player will choose to play Ashes.
We shall see.
I wish you were right but the sad reality is that such players will flood Ashes of Creation when it launches.
Launch is irrelevant. Tons of people try new MMORPGs and quickly stop playing.
But...PvEers are more likely to continue playing Throne and Liberty than Ashes of Creation.
Based on the current game designs.
Interesting that the creators of L2 have chosen to make their sequel more PvE-based than L2.
I honestly think PvE players would player play AoC than TL. Western audiences prefer wester games even more so one that doesn't have p2w.
Them focusing on some pve is nothing new in their messaging as they admited to not having good pve content before and want to do it in this case. It doesn't change the fact there is unpunished PK flagging during the night, game is going to be more on the pvp side than AoC.
Pvers don't understand how strong the corruption is for AoC, you need to actually see how the rest of their pvp works before you can any any statements like this. Cause again effectively during night it is like the ocean from AoC but everywhere. Which to me sounds good btw lol.
Comments
its all so tiresome...
@Arya_Yeshe I disagree with you here. WoW was the best mmo I have played when it comes to gear balance. I mean, have you ever played Aion or Archeage where p2w dominated? In AA a p2w player could wipeout a whole raidgroup in 5 seconds.
No, they hide the gear behind the game.
Again, if you want PvP without PvE, play a lobby game that simply doesnt have that PvE.
Your analogy of a wood cutter not being able to cut wood until they have done hundreds of hours of PvP is flawed, because the reverse is not true.
Sure, a player will need to PvE in order to get good gear and get to the level cap, but they are not prevented from PvP'ing during this period.
If that player wanted to cut wood complained that they had to PvP, I would point out to them that in playing this game, they signed up for both woodcutting AND PvP, and they shouldn't then complain about being able to do both at the same time - especially when their complaint is actually that they only want to do one of the two things they signed up to do, and so that being the case they should have signed up for a game that only had woodcutting.
What you have done here - inadvertently - is hit upon my long standing reason as to why MMO's focusing on PvP simply do not work. MMORPG's are the wrong genre for people that just want to PvP. Outright PvP, where it is purely about players skill vs each other, is far better suited to match based gameplay, not to games with a persistent world.
This is the situation Crowfall tried to remedy with it's design.
At the end of the day though, if you are signing up for an MMORPG that has a persistent world, expect to have to play in that persistent world. If you do not want that - with ALL that this entails - play a lobby game instead.
I mean, that is why lobby games exist, to give people that only want to play part of a game somewhere to play that part of the game.
I mean, this is an exaggeration.
If a pay to win player is beating a full raid (40 players in Archeage), then literally everyone in that raid was asleep. Even just a single group (5 people) would have been a hard fight for someone that spent a quarter million on their gear - and that is assuming those 5 players put no effort at all in to their gear.
Or, someone like me that spent years in the game, worked a lot of land (I had control of a third of all player land in Marcala for well over a year), and using a combat tracker to create a build to break the three popular builds, can come in and decimate that player that spent all that money.
Archeage absolutely was pay to win, but it's gear was balanced. It just took time to beat a big wallet.
Recently though it seems like there's a ton of fearmongering around "always-on" pvp and AoC being a PvP game, which simply is not true, what people mean by always on pvp is really just the flagging system in BDO, but the corruption system will be much harsher in Ashes compared to karma in BDO in order to prevent griefing.
I have never been attacked by another player in BDO.
I consider ArcheAge to be PvP-centric.
As an avid Not-Enjoyer of BDO:
You can't be attacked until level 50, and you must choose to level above that.
Karma does not affect most people, our server's resident perma-red Ninja just does as they like at all times.
There is nothing to protect in BDO, nothing drops, and the only loss most of the time is time if you weren't geared to the teeth in very specific ways or your Crystals break, neither of which are necessary for 'the sort of person who enjoys being Perma-Red'.
BDO is also not what most could define as a good PvE game.
Just because there IS an Environment doesn't mean there's a 'Versus'. If you don't go explicitly looking for a challenge, you can level and grind in BDO successfully without ever seeing your health drop until another player arrives.
'PvE' is just something to do to watch your bankroll tick up while you wait for an attacker, and they intend it that way.
I became level 80 in Guild Wars 2 just doing PvP and it was wonderful, so what you said is just your opinion, it's not a real thing and in there I found more people who only did PvP
I am still sticking with:
-how a carebear would feel if he had to run 100 hours of arena just to get a better axe so he could cut trees?
This is the problem about soulbound stuff with no loot drops
If pvpers can buy their stuff, then it's fine... if pvp gear is all soulbound behind a wall of carebearing pve then its sad
People should be able to grind pve for pve stuff and be able to grind pvp for pvp stuff, or simply craft or buy
Hopefully the mix of PvX will bring extreme danger to the dungeons and a lot of PvP there and PvPers will actually be required to escort the soft mushy greedy drone ant behaving bot aspirant carebears in their endless hoarding
Almost nothing is soulbound.
According to the current design.
Probably the same as a PvP player that wants to PvP but cant for a hundred hours.
Not sure what the point of this is though, since you are not talking about Ashes. In Ashes, that PvP player is able to attack players from day 1.
This would require segregating PvP and PvE gear from each other.
Since Intrepid specifically do not want to do this, it isnt an option.
Further,since the point of Ashes is for wealth/items to be created via PvE and redistributed via PvP, if the game started seeing PvP create wealth/items, it would then need to come up with a way to redistribute that via PvE.
This is now turning Ashes in to a totally different game.
What I will say though, is that since you can and will PvP while leveling up, and since you can and will PvP in order to gain wealth and then use that wealth to buy gear, your issues are kind of moot anyway.
You are basically arguing that a game that is not Ashes, that has a design that is not what Ashes has, sucks.
This thread perfectly shows, what the whole PvP vs PvE drama, that is happening around AoC, is all about and why it is misleading. PvPers(know what REAL PvP is) and PvEers(know what REAL PvE is) take over and drown out everything and everyone else(including Steven/Intrepid).
I think, you will both be disappointed by the game. I think PvP/PvP combat will be designed to be enjoyable for casual PvPers in groups/large scale battles(REAL PvPers will hate it). PvE will be centered around economy/crafting and will require casual PvP and interaction with others(solo PvEers and dungeon grinders won't like it).
I think AoC will be/wants to be a true PvX game. Not a PvE game with PvP aspects and not a PvP game with opt in PvE content.
PvX is not just in the middle of a PvP-PvE scale. It is a different kind of game/play style.
The thing is, ''grinding for gear'' in AOC will involve tons of PvP so you will be grinding by doing what you, as a pvp-er enjoy.
In AOC crafters will make the best gear, you will just need to get the resources from open world and open world dungeons/raids/open world bosses.
Well, guess what, running arounds for ores/trees/etc will mean lots of open world pvp and doing dungeons/raids/open world bosses will also mean tons of group pvp.
The fact is, there are good types of grinding and bad types of grinding in gaming.
As a pvp-er, I believe this here (what we see AOC aiming for) is good grinding.
That is not jus a random lumberjack player, he is HIS GUILD's LUMBERJACK and his guild will likely want him to have his axe so he can get his guild good gear/ships/etc more than he personally will.
So you will have a whole gaming community boosting the dude for their own interest as much as his and trust me, there is little change the lumberjack (economy focused player in question) won't have fun playing with his guild friends and doing challenging stuff like this.
Also, even if the dude were to have difficulties... why would he be complaining when he choose such a PvP focused game?
Now I understood you are just another forum troll twisting stuff, what you say is not important
/ignored
That's what I hope for, my hope is that Intrepid keeps true to it's search for a real PvX and it succeeds in this and comes a reference to be followed by many devs for many years to come
In other words, I have presented some valid points you have no rebuttal to, and so would rather not.
Fair enough.
What you said about redistributing items and gaining wealth through PvP is just completely wrong. No sense in arguing with you. I agree with Arya
What is "completely wrong" about it?
In Ashes, you PvE for wealth creation. This could be killing base population to gain certificates to then turn in for gold, it could be killing mobs for body parts to turn in to items, it could be harvesting raw materials, or it could be killing boss mobs for finished loot (very rarely), but more often, raw materials for crafting items.
All of these activities are generating player wealth. You are creating new money and/or items when you do these activities, not taking from other players.
Then, however, someone can come along and kill you. If they do this, they are taking a portion of the certificates or raw materials you have on you. This could be in open PvP on the ocean, it could be PvP using the corruption system (where the defender is best served by fighting back to preserve their wealth), it could be via the caravan system, it could be via the siege system, or the plundering that comes after a node siege.
Essentially, all PvP in Ashes has the potential to redistribute wealth between players and group of players, yet that wealth is generated via PvE.
The notion that - in Ashes - wealth is created in PvE and redistributed via PvP is essentially the core concept of the game.
I'm confused as to which part of it you find "so completely wrong" that there is no sense in discussing it.
OK, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, I think due to the genre, and companies putting a huuuuuge line through PvP/PvE was a mistake. The two never should've been separated. Ashes is a true PvX game, Player vs Everything. Too many games now days get associated wrongfully with "PvP MMO" when in reality they are a PvX. EvE Online is considered by many a PvP MMO, its not. It's PvX. New World was said to be a "PvP" game before launch, also wrong, it too was PvX before and after launch when they messed it up. Any game where you can fight mobs & players is PvX. I've never seen an MMO or heard of one that is strictly PvP as all MMOs need an element of PvE for level progression and content.
From what we know, Steven and the Team want to make Ashes of Creation a true PvX MMO, or what id like to call, what Massively Multiplayer Online Games should be and never should have diverted from. There are other MMOs that are true PvX but they are dated, so its nice to see Steven stay true to his word of keeping Ashes a PvX MMORPG. While Ashes will have heavy PvP elements, it is not a strictly PvP MMO. Again my point of, the two terms never should've been separated. There will be content for all I believe, just be wary when you travel alone, or travel in groups of friends, join a guild. Be apart of the MMO experience and have fun!
Your premise here is basing terms on gaming as a whole, rather than using terms within a given game genre.
Terms like PvE and PvP should be used within the scope of the game genre being talked about.
By your own logic, no MMO has ever been PvE either, as you are always having to compete against other players for content - something that you don't need to do in a single player game. While it is easy to say that this is a pathetic excuse for player competition, EVE's PvE is a pathetic excuse for PvE - so if you can use EVE, I can use this.
The logical thing to then do is to take these known terms - PvE and PvP - and apply them within the scope of the genre in question. In this case, a game like EQ that is as PvE as an MMO can get can be considered an outright PvE MMO, despite the need to compete with other players. On the other end of the scale, a game like EVE can be considered a PvP MMO.
Within the scope of MMORPG's, a game that wants to be considered PvX should be attempting to fall somewhere between these two.
Arguments like the one you are making here are just arguments for Ashes to be another PvP MMO.
We shall see.
And with those harsh consequences it did little to tame inter-clan wars and pvp.
And for those that were pve only, this was achieved by remaining neutral and making friends!
My pvx clan happily played with pve only guilds and when the pvp occured it was very very rare they were targetted.
Considering AoC pk consequences have significantly harsher penalties, I cannot many issues happening at all once the community gets past its honeymoon period and players find their community.
I wish you were right but the sad reality is that such players will flood Ashes of Creation when it launches.
The game is insanely hyped, and lots of people love it for the graphics, world and lore, gathering and general economy, adaptive dungeons and raids, etc without understanding it's profound PvP orientated nature.
Most of these people are corrupt the marrow having been educated by/used only to the trash-philosophy, modern mmo where leveling is trash and something you want to skip, not having your hand held like you're mentally disabled is inacceptable, dungeons and raids are the real focus and pvp a side-dish at best, seeing the world and being immersed into it is inferior to fast travel and content skipping, etc
While I am convinced many of the carebear andies who will try ashes will see the light and appreciate its healthy, solid philosophy, the fact is, a lot won't.
They won't and after having joined in the hundreds of thousands (hell, maybe millions) they will then leave en mass.
This post-early-phase, post-launch server de-population is, in my opinion, the nr.1 threath AOC will face in it's early existence at least.
The ''AOC is dead (because carebear andies, who only joined because of the hype despite being blatantly incompatible with the game's fundamentals, left en mass)" will flow in this period, sadly intimidating and de-moralizing many good-faith, compatible players.
I'll bite, but won't go into details. It is completely wrong that this is THE core concept. Not even essentially.
PvP is always a money sink(consumables/gear degredation) and will be in AoC too. The concept to redistribute wealth/items is through trade.
Yes, there is a chance, that it will happen through PvP, but you have no idea if or how that will affect anything. Saying it is a core idea is just wrong.
I'm sure you'll have alot to say about this, but it's senseless discussing with you, because all you do is trying to proove others wrong( or trigger them to get a reaction) by throwing in some random arguments, stating stuff as facts and claiming you know how something will turn out to be,
Trade does not redistribute wealth. Items sure, wealth no.
If I have a fish that you want, and it is worth 10g and I trade it to you for 10g, we each end that trade with the exact same amount of wealth.
If you kill me and take that fish, there has been a redistribution of wealth. I no longer have that 10g fish, you still have your 10g, but you also have that 10g fish. We started this interaction with 10g of wealth each, now you have 20g and I have 0g.
That is a redistribution of wealth - a trade for that fish is not.
As to how I know this is how the game will turn out to be, redistribution of wealth via PvP is from Steven, not from me. They are his words, not mine.
Argue that I am wrong all you like.
People making assumptions is the first way to be let down on a game. It is easier if people just accepted, they don't know how things will turn out until they are shown. One can guess but someone trying to say things as if it is fact is pretty silly. We are all learning more every month, this is something a lot of pve crowd are going to make worse for themselves by assuming things rather than waiting to see how things play out and what their intentions are in design apporach.
But...PvEers are more likely to continue playing Throne and Liberty than Ashes of Creation.
Based on the current game designs.
Interesting that the creators of L2 have chosen to make their sequel more PvE-based than L2.
"Great PvP experiences are always welcome but it looks like NCSoft will be putting most of its eggs in the PvE basket. The developers revealed that the vast majority of players prefer PvE content and the game will focus on creating challenging content that hardcore players enjoy in the endgame."
https://www.mmorpg.com/editorials/throne-and-liberty-could-be-2023s-big-next-gen-mmo-launch-2000126568
Doesn't specifically surprise me. L2 was 20 years ago and just looking at the two most popular mmos today and their themepark/PvE focus and the very vocal population jumping ship from Retail WoW in the past year or two. They might just be looking to take over market share if their game does pan out. Also their recent sucess (or lack thereof) in the MMO space might have seen them try a different angle from what games they put out in the early 2000s.
If L2 PvE / PvP was measured in time played.. L2 was a PvE game.
60min PvE grind to make up a 2min PvP round death..
If L2 PvE / PvP was measured by in-game wealth.. L2 was a PvE game. No wealth from PvP but needed to work damn hard to gear up.
6 months of grinding / playing market to gear up to lose in 30 sec of PK rampage!
If L2 PvE / PvP was measured in time in combat.. L2 was a PvE game.
PvE for 10-30 hrs and may not even have a PvP round unless seeking out pvp.
I honestly think PvE players would player play AoC than TL. Western audiences prefer wester games even more so one that doesn't have p2w.
Them focusing on some pve is nothing new in their messaging as they admited to not having good pve content before and want to do it in this case. It doesn't change the fact there is unpunished PK flagging during the night, game is going to be more on the pvp side than AoC.
Pvers don't understand how strong the corruption is for AoC, you need to actually see how the rest of their pvp works before you can any any statements like this. Cause again effectively during night it is like the ocean from AoC but everywhere. Which to me sounds good btw lol.