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[Feedback Request] Gathering System Update Shown in October Livestream



  • Love how you can gather everything you see, feels great.

    Idk how multiple person gathering is gonna work but im imagining it working like this:

    You CAN always gather every gatherable but its like obsidian in minecraft, it takes a LONG time.
    If you start using your pickaxe on a rock for example, other people can then tag in on that rock and the "bar" to finish mining that rock fills up faster, and even faster if even more people join in on that rock.
    Basically like fixing generators in dead by daylight.

    Should maybe only work with better tier gatherables but in that way you can gather together or solo, whatever you prefer.
  • I've read through a lots of comments and it seems like the mayority is d'accord with having some kind of mini-game when it comes to gathering. What I want to point out is that every further step into giving the game more depth by e.g. mini-games, the game moves away from a thing called accessiblity. Believe it or not, there are people out there willing to play games but they can't because devs don't put in any kind of accessibility options on basic stuff such as gathering. They cannot hold down a button for, lets say 7 seconds, or repetitive button smashing to cut a tree or hack or out of a rock.
    IMO there should be mini-games combined with and inside of gathering to make it more interesting. These mini-games should maybe differ from region to type of rock or tree or whatever plant you're cropping etc.
    BUT there has to be the option to switch to an Accessibility Mode so people in need, or those who don't want the mini-games, can just have that by clicking one Button for once or maybe twice per gather process.

    Other than that, some trees looked like they were from rubber, so some tweaking and polishing is needed. Rather than that, the whole concept is really great and inspired me already on my own projects!

    Thanks! :)
  • RintaRinta Member
    edited October 2022

    Can cut down all of the trees - this is awesome!
    Way to start the video, kept me engaged right away.

    Potential for multi-player gathering (two-handed saw, etc.) - yes, please!
    In my opinion, gathering experience would only benefit from making it require same amount of multiplayer as other areas of gameplay.

    On falling trees

    Perhaps, I've played too much Valheim, but a tree falling down and immediately dissolving into nothing feels rather awkward.

    I understand that we can't have trunks lying all over the place in an MMORPG world, but how about, for example, having a limited time to interact with it (e.g. chop it up for more lumber, peel the bark off - perhaps there's a choice to be made here) before it dissolves?

    In my view, having the fallen tree be interactable puts more value into making all this beautiful animation.

    Visual fidelity

    Pretty damn good for pre-Alpha-2.
    Trees already look very pleasant, falling animation is solid.

    Small things that I imagine are just placeholders for now, and will get better by the time of release:
    Animation for freshly mined rocks
    Pieces of rock look more like shards of glass or plastic when falling apart, there's no weight to them.

    Regrowth animation
    During transitional parts of it the tree model is being visibly stretched out, which looks incredibly unnatural.

    Unrelated to gathering

    Hearing Steven re-state intended gameplay in regards to PvP vs griefing, and what is actually considered to be griefing by the studio, is very reassuring, since it aligns well with my own interests.

    Falling snow is gorgeous.
  • The direction is feeling good and the concept should work given enough iteration. Im not gonna write essays or big analysis here but couple things i really hope you consider when you refine and iterate on the design:

    Abundance of common rarity materials vs rare materials: you need to have both, rock and treenodes, with some rare stuff sprinkled here and there. The thrill of seeing something new or recognizable from afar and rushing to that rare flower or vein or tree before anyone else!

    This caters to both the explorers and the farmer type mental hooks, e.g the guy who cuts down the whole forest on one go vs the guy who runs through it to visually search that rare tree.

    Another one is an idea to add depth to gathering:
    What about a rare hollow stone node with a rare mushroom growing inside it when the stone cracks or a crystal geode which you need higher mining to harvest, or a high up on a tree you see something rare attached to the bark but you need to cut the tree done to access the possibility to harvest it etc.

    Just couple thoughts that came to mind.
  • What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?
    - the satisfaction of the action and the gameplay. The cutting of the trees and the mining of ores was really well done so it was noticeable when the foraging and flower cutting was not as polished but that will come with time. It's important that the top tier gatherables are rare and exciting. They shouldn't be easy to obtain and when you do get that rare gatherable from an ore, that should be the highlight of your play session.

    How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?
    - Admittedly, I'm not 100% able to wrap my head around surveying just yet. I understand the concept and I think it's a really nice feature to add more depth and focus to gathering. I do however worry about potential balance of being able to directly track the certain ores or veins you want. Again, I'm not too sure I've completely grasped it so I'm waiting to see how it works in game or on a Live stream and then give a proper critique but I will say that I hope that the effort you put into finding specific ores you need, is balanced.

    What are your thoughts regarding the land management system?
    - Fantastic. no complaints at all. It eliminates hot spots for gatherers and will force players to mix it up in other areas as the land depletes over time. As long as there is a method to nurse your land back to its full potential with a reasonable amount of effort, It's perfect. I can see this playing a big part in the run up to sieges, when a node is relying on their resources to build defences but their land management might not be so good. Very happy with it.

    Are there examples of gathering systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
    - The 2 games that come to mind are New World and Albion. New World and its satisfactory gathering system is what made is a bearable experience for many. It's gathering created such a buzz, that I would happily spend hours running around the environment mining and gathering. Albion had something similar but it held much more importance in the gameplay. resources are so important to that game, its gearing and its economy so the gathering became a primary gameplay function whereas in other games, it can take a back seat in terms in terms of player experience.That downtime and semi passive gameplay is more than okay to have as long as it is still interesting and the rewards for doing the activity are fair and feel good.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?
    - Very excited to see more about surveying and to be told how it will actually work. Same with the land management which will need to be balanced so it's not too harsh. Just very excited to see how these work in game. ALSO - I am very keen to see more menus and UI relating to in-game content. Gathering is just one example but I and many more want to see more menus!

    Other thoughts:
    - Another really great livestream. As someone who is very in touch with the community, it was nice to see Steven addressing PVP griefing which is probably the feature that will keep AoC from reaching a wider audience. This doesn't concern me. AoC will not be for everyone and that is a given. What I'm not convinced about is the effect that griefing will have on streamers. Steven did briefly touch on it but I'm not convinced. Streamers audiences are untameable in many ways (Asmon I'm looking at you) and will not care for courtesy and will do everything they can to make it unplayable experience. If a streamer can't play the game, then the reputation takes a gigantic hit and likewise will the playerbase. I hate to focus on him specifically but Asmongold single-handedly brought population back to Lost Ark and FFXIV and I fear for the games population if it can't be enjoyed by streamers. I want it to be clear that I want complete PVP and I am against PVE servers but I just hope that the PK systems are sufficient and balanced. If i could think of a way to do this, I would offer but I can't and so I understand how much of an undertaking this will be. Again, this is only a worry and I have faith that when A2 comes around, it will be tested and altered upon and I'm sure whatever Intrepid have planned, will be sufficient. I will be actively testing griefing in A2 as it is the element that I am most concerned about. Visuals are constantly wowing me and the innovation of classic systems like gathering is so refreshing. Keep wowing us, keep up the good work and fingers crossed everything runs smoothly. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to give feedback. Can't wait to play your game
  • What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?
    The feeling of being rewarded for the time spent, at the moment the sound effect is helping that alot. I like the treefall but its something that occasionally is very satisfying but when I am farming I wont be placing much importance on.

    How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?
    I am very much looking forward to this, walking around in the world and seeing the world and not the ressources is from my perspective very immersive. And with surveying you are adding importance to gathering classes to spent time in the world and not farming routes.

    What are your thoughts regarding the land management system?
    At the moment I am a bit on the fence, in essence it is a very nice idea and with the node system as a basis it can very well succeed but I am concerned that it will incite alot more conflict escalating into PvP that maybe anticipated or have the exact opposite effect that people will simply leave a node alone because its dominated by a strong guild. I currently do not know how severe land management can have an effect on a node. Does it take all ressources into account or is it more in a sense of with complete missmanagement or overexploitation the potential use of a node is reduced by 50% so its still functioning but not dead. And if overexploitation of any kind can affect 100% of a node then I hope there will be some kind off spell a major can use that will reset the node at 35% effectivenes after a long cast time of maybe 2-3 days so the damage is done but it is recuperable.

    Are there examples of gathering systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
    Maybe not specifically other games but I always thought that gathering offered a good opportunity for mini games, if you once just clicke 'E' for gathering it takes 5 hits as in the livestream but lets say after the 2-3rd hit there may be a visual or audio que that when you click forgoes the last 1-2 hit and makes it a bit mroe interactive and efficient if done actively but retains the option of 'I had a long day at work and just want to chill for a bit'.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?
    I am excited about the difference between node construction materials and crafting. That the sound effects are very immersive and if I can request something here will be different from types of trees a 'alder' sounds much different than a 'spruce' when hit with an axe so walking through a diverse forest and having 3-5 different sounds would be absolutely amazing. Maybe depending on the rocks as well some high pitched when very dense and others duller.

    Overall I think you already did an amazing job with having expanded the gathering to almost everything visible. For me you could keep it at that and I would be happy, no doubt. Fullfilling a suggestions would simply be going beyond an extra mile to reach near perfection.
  • - What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?

    I enjoy more immersive gathering gameplay elements. Having ores somewhat hidden in their homes, everything being gatherable, and flora/fauna interacting with player action and regrowing naturally all fall in line with this desire.

    - How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?

    Hard to say for sure since we didn’t actually get to see any of the surveying mechanics in action. I was left wondering how large of an area surveying is supposed to cover, how long it takes to set up, and for how long the effect lasts. I was honestly left asking myself, “If it takes long enough to set up and process in order to be laborious, would it even be worth it in the end?” I’ll need to see it in action to give more feedback.

    - What are your thoughts regarding the land management system?

    My first thought upon hearing about this system was, “Awesome, I love this!” This was immediately followed by, “Oh no, no one else is going to care.”

    I’m concerned that we may experience something at launch when we get all the less dedicated players pouring in by the thousands that we won’t have in the alpha or beta phases - mindless droves roaming the land, far outweighing the players who actually understand and care about the land management system, stripping Vera for all it has to offer. When they realize the land can’t supply their mindless gathering, and the populated areas become void of resources, they’ll go back to their old MMO for a while, then return and do it all over again once the land heals.

    Finding a balance of meaningful limitation that encourages dynamic player driven gameplay, but doesn’t allow hordes of careless players (which we’ll inevitably attract simply by being an MMO) to ruin the environment will be a big task. One that may not be able to be fully tackled until after launch, and that’s worrisome from a first-impression standpoint.

    All that being said, I think the system sounds awesome, fun to be involved in as a player who cares about managing those variables, and I hope it works out for the best.

    - Are there examples of gathering systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?

    What you’ve all begun building here is honestly much closer to what I’ve envisioned as an ideal system than any game I’ve ever played, so I feel like I can’t really give much other experience as further inspiration.

    - Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?

    Other than my concerns about the general public fumbling the ball when it comes to land management, I hope the tree physics will be able to be updated quite a bit further. It was very impressive to see them interacting with the environment in the way that they did, but the speed at which the trees move through the world and the way in which their branches interact with the environment need a lot more work.

    Less rubber tree limbs and sliding around, more snapping of thick branches, more of a solid thud and less movement of the trunk, quicker movement of the smaller twigs and branches. The cut line on the tree should be less clean, they look like they were cut down with a circular saw. Sound design is okay so far, but should have much greater impact, especially with the larger trees.

    It’s all great progress from the last update though, so nothing truly negative. I’m sure it’ll all continue to improve in the right direction given further observation and study of real world physics and sound interactions in various environments.

    Overall, awesome job! Can’t wait to see some crafting… 😉
  • VestatciusVestatcius Member
    edited October 2022
    Hi! Just wanted to start off by saying fantastic job guys, clearly a lot of thought and hard work has gone into the design. I work as a tree surgeon and can comfortably say that this is the closest iteration of tree felling and behaviour I've ever seen in an MMO, so fantastic job there. The sound of the hinge breaking and thundering boom as she hits the deck, superb.

    Although on the other hand, I really didn't like some of the mining animations, having spent a lot of time swinging pickaxes, sledgehammers and axes etc I'd say that some of the animations look powerless, impractical and unnatural (particularly the "side-swing" with the pickaxe, really ruined it for me) it's simply not how the tool is used. I think you're 100% on the right path and with a few tweaks the system really will be amazing. I'd say the sound design for the mining is nice, but perhaps take a look at some videos of a pickaxe being used properly, the animations should be more energetic, a wind up over the shoulder, hard downward swing while sliding a hand down the handle etc (New World actually got this spot-on).

    This is by all means a nitpick and by no means an overall negative post, still really loved this reveal. I hope this feedback is useful and I'd love to see some of it implemented! Great work as always.
  • RazelthethirdRazelthethird Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2022
    First of all let me say i think you all are doing a fabulous job. The graphics are amazing, what you're doing with the gathering looks wonderful, you all actually care about the game and i think some of your devs need some free keys to play lol.

    That said i am having some Lineage 2 flashbacks.... and remembering all the bad things in it related to gathering resources and pvp which i hope don't happen in Ashes. I'll try to keep this short.

    In Lineage 2 i was an alliance leader on Sieghart server of over 40 clans, we owned numerous castles, i was one of the highest lvl players and played it over 2 yrs. I played the game 12-14 hours a day as well...

    Some of the issues we had. In lineage 2 we killed mobs for crafting materials, the materials were scarce and were limited to certain level mobs (many lower level mobs) and areas depending on what you were needing. I do understand.. there is a difference .. however i still see the scarcity as being an issue.

    One of the problems was the amount of materials needed in order to craft anything. It was a ridiculous amount. (it could take a month to gather enough materials to make a set of boots for your lvl)

    The second issue was (especially at higher levels 80+) it took an incredible amount of time, say 12 hours of solid grinding mobs in order to gain 1 percent of the total xp needed for your next level.
    You had a choice, do you grind mobs for xp for your level or do you go kill low level mobs for a few materials.

    These issues cause chinese gold / mat farmers to appear everywhere. If you went into an area to grind mobs for mats they would tell you to go away. The devs implemented a few various ways to combat this but was unsuccessful. I don't want to get into all of the things they tried because i don't want this to be long.

    You could say all you have to do is kill them and take their stuff. Unfortunately there was a flagging system in Lineage 2 as well and it simply wasn't possible to do so without serious penalties as the farmers... didn't fight back which would cause you to go red and then you would have to go grind xp while red with a very high probability of losing a lot of gear if someone seen you red and decided to kill you.

    The only way i can see to combat the issues above is that whatever mat requirements to make items be kept low. Another way is to not make leveling so time consuming and.... make it to where even lower levels can compete with higher levels with player skill.... In lineage 2, if someone was a level or 2 higher than someone else you didn't stand a chance of winning against them in pvp.

    If you have to grind mobs for xp 12 hours a day just to keep up with the higher people, you simply wont have time to grind materials for items which creates an influx of gold and mat farmers which is prevalent in most games. This created conditions to where if you wanted to buy the mats just to make an item, depending on the item, it would cost you hundreds or thousands of real life cash in order to purchase them.

    I could see a farming clan in a group moving in a large circle around an area and taking everything. Once the materials respawn they would be right back where they started and do it all over again, leaving nothing for anyone else. You could say this will never happen, but i assure you IT WILL. Lineage 2 had more asian gold and mat farmers than anything else.

    There would have to be a system in place to eradicate a 'clan' from an area otherwise i don't see how you would be able to effectively gather materials without substantial issues.
    Ideally... a guild leader or officer should... be able to make a player or clan as KOS and be able to take any mats they have on them without penalties. Its really the only way i can see to combat it.

    mic drop
  • ValyoyoValyoyo Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    -Chopping trees:
    Each tree has multiple levels of growth;
    Does it require same amount of hits/time to chop a small tree as a big tree ?

    Can we have that a tree is not cut until multiple phases of gathering interaction are completed, based on the growth level of the tree (you get wood for each finished cutting interaction). This will prevent turning forested areas into plains, specially during early period of server when everybody will chop all the trees they find. Will also prevent wood shortage early on.

    Tree falling down sound is a bit lackluster imo, like it's missing the depth. Maybe a bit of echo would make it more enjoyable, something like how it sounds in New World.
    Tree falling visual is nice. Not that amazing/hyped, but nice. Love the physics when tree hits stone and redirect, makes it feel more realistic.

    -Rock mining is spot on. Sound amazing, animation amazing, it feels impactful. Bonus the different direction of hits from pickaxe.
    - Herb gathering is spot on. The sound is great, making it quite impactful.

    I've seen a suggestion to add some kind of minigame (like hold click to chop, or press click at certain timing or spot to break rock) and I think that it would make the process of gathering too bothersome, specially when you go on a gathering spree and having to do minigames at every node.
    Maybe give the option to opt-in and out of doing minigames from the settings menu, and if you opted-in to do minigames to receive a bit more extra resources than opted out.
  • verlisifyverlisify Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?
    The ability to go out and collect resources of higher level materials should feel fair and respect my time. I don't like it when something takes a minute to harvest to get 1/50th of what I need or there are the resources are too sparse and long respawning arbitrarily. I like feeling rewarded for skill mastery. Especially with the land management system there should be great rewards to proper resource gathering management. It shouldn't feel tedious after doing everything correctly.

    How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?
    Really unique. I like it

    What are your thoughts regarding the land management system?
    I also really like this. Consequences to mindless resource taking and opportunities to improve gathering rares and rates.

    Are there examples of gathering systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
    Tree of Life had "rare" versions of items that added bonuses when used for crafting and processing.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system? I'm excited to test it for full feedback
  • Ace1234Ace1234 Member
    edited November 2022
    What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?

    To me, there are many components to a good gathering system.

    1) each type of gathering option should offer a gameplay loop that creates a cohesive and unique gameplay experience that gives it a reason to be chosen over other types of gameplay. It should invoke a specific feeling through the entire process. For example, if the goal is to be engaging, then the entire process that is required within that style of play should cohesively be engaging. it should't have required aspects to it that are mindless and boring. On the contrary, if the goal relaxing, then it should be a cohesively relaxing experience throughout all the required aspects of that style of play.
    It would seem counterintuitive to be attempting to provide an adrenaline rush within one type of gathering, but have certain required aspects within that loop that are relaxing and mindless, because those are two very different feelings, and generally players will be looking to experience a specific one, and if not then they could always just choose to bounce back and forth between the different experiences to mix things up. Each gathering style (or any game sysyem) should instead focus on being its best at providing a specific feeling and experience, in order to appeal to those types of players in the best possible way.

    2) The way in which it accomplishes providing that type of experience should also be dynamic and unique.

    A) So, if the aim is to "give a feeling of intelligence and a cerebral experience", then it should be a dynamic experience that has variation in it, so the player is doing the same thing but in different ways, so that it avoids becoming stale and predictable. This offers replayability and longevity to those types players. For example, having the same mechanics, (such as having surveying be the main gameplay mechanic), but frequently changing the factors that influence how the player surveys, to keep things fresh.

    B)Two types of gameplay could provide the same type of experience but be slightly different in how it delivers it, to gives that style of player a similar option to mix things up. For example,
    if its meant to provide an experience of "an adrenaline rush", then how it accomplishes that can either require a specialization in a specific skill that is unique to that style of play, or requires a unique combination of skills that only exists within that gameplay loop, compared to other styles of play, in order to provide a uniquely fun experience.
    This may mean the one style of gathering is more dexterity based throughout its gameplay loop, vs another style that may require both dexterity and management aspects in order to excel. These should work with each other and not against each other in providing the desired feeling and experience that gameplay loop is aiming to provide. This would give players looking for that type of experience some alternative options to mix things up by experimenting with that style of play to further keep things fresh and fun for them.

    The styles of gathering gameplay are another means of providing these types of experiences, and this also applies to any other system in the game, so its important to consider the purpose of each system and how it fits into the big picture in delivering the best experiences possible for each type of player.

    3. Gathering specifically, has a unique type of experience it can provide, that I think would be a good opportunity and should be leveraged. Gatherers can be on the frontlines traveling around the world to gather resources, so I think that the gathering style of play should provide a fun exploration experience. A major aspect of this is a sense of discovery. This could be done in many ways. First you have to consider that fun is the goal, but you also have to encourage players to do fun things, because they are going to always try to min/max and optimize their results. You want fun to be optimal. This could be a great opportunity to reward those who explore, in order to make it a viable way of playing. I think possibly having tiered resources with different rarities could be used to reward those who explore. And of course, with higher reward comes higher risk to add that meaningful element. Maybe certain trees types of trees are really well hidden that have wood that is in some way objectively better than other wood. Applying this philosophy could make for some epic and fun discoveries when traveling around to gather resources.

    Taking the examples from earlier about providing different ways of providing a certain type of experience; if one type of gathering profession offers a great amount of exploration and discovery, then an alrernative option for that same type of experience could be questing. This could be used as a way of providing a more unique experience in exploring the world than that of a certain profession, of which maybe requires diffetent things from the player to accomplish their goals. You could also have experiences that blend both the profession and the questing together, for a unique combination experience. I always loved when games have a quest that involves finding a specific hidden or hard to reach NPC from town to town, to give that sense of discovery, and then they give you a quest that involves gathering hard to reach or hidden gatherables out in the world. Thats an example of how you can seek to provide that sense of discovery, by combining two different systems that deliver that experience in a unique way, to make for a new unique "combination" experience.

    How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?

    Not enough info on this yet, so its hard to say. I am also not sure the style of play that the logging is going for. If its supposed to be relaxing, then as long as the surveying isrelaxing then that would be great. If its supposed to be engaging, then as long as the surveying has some complexity to it so you can progressively learn and improve as a player, progress as a character, and the experience doesn't get stale over time- then that would be great. If its supposed to be an engaging experience then that would beg the question, why doesn't the act of wood cutting have a mini-game to prevent its monotnous and tedious nature?

    What are your thoughts regarding the land management system?

    Love the idea, I just hope that the land management is not too reliant on other people, so that way each individual player can have a sense of agency and impact without feeling like their efforts are pointless and can too easily be undermined by others.

    Are there examples of gathering systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?

    Mechanic wise, I love when games reward fun activities or your proficiency in the other systems with with better gatherables. Such as having really fun parkour/jumping puzzles, hidden areas, or having risky maneuvers/decisions lead to areas with really rare gatherables. Or, having really rare gatherables gated behind your ability to master of game systems, such as defeating a raid boss, winning a cooking competition, becoming an elected official, placing well in pvp matches, etc. This shouldnt be required to gather, as that would contradict what I was saying about earlier about being forced into different types of experiences, but it is nice to have that option as a gameplay loop, to encourage those who want that varied type of experience that rewards mastery over the game as a whole. Its important to provide all types a players with a fun gameplay loop focused on what they can excel in, with some more demanding styles of play that encourages players to become more versatile or specialized in their skillset, along with some more niche game loop options for those who can't excel in the more demanding styles of play.

    This idea wouldn't have to only work for tieing gatherables to other areas of the game, it could be the other way around or even involve tieing together other systems as well. The combat players who want to join in on some gathering could be satisfied by having a boss that can only spawn when you gather a specific gatherable that is associated with them. For example, if you have a secret area with really rare rocks, if you mine them all then it can spawn a rock-boss. This could reward those who try to master various systems (in this case mining and combat) or reward those who team up with other players to overcome these kinds of challenges.

    Like I mentioned earlier as well, because discovery is a big appeal of gathering, I also Ioved when rare gatherables are found or tied to things that are found, in really obscure hard to reach places. Things like having an NPC trader that shows up every so often, who can sell really rare items or give quests that give you rare gatherables that you can only access if you accepted his quest, but you have to find him first to be able to accept the quest. This was always cool, because there may have been a really tough to reach spot in the world that ends up looking reqlly important but having nothing there, until you realize you need to have a special item from someone like this wandering trader in order to reveal something in that secret area- which maybe ends up having some really rare gatherables in that secret area that you can then access.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?

    yes, I am very slightly concerned about the implementation of rng in the gathering. Generally I feel that anytime rng impedes the players' sense of control, then it could have been designed better. RNG can be good at creating dynamic gameplay as long as the player has control in managing the random factors. I see that this is the direction they were going with having the surveying allow for the management of rng aspects, but I am curious as to why that would be limited to only gatherers, instead of having gatherers have some other benefits instead, of which doesn't involve non-gatherers be subject to rng gathering. This is only a minor concern seeing as how it seems to be small doses of rng, where it was out of your control but you would only waste a tiny amount of time you spent gathering if you don't get what you wanted. This could potentially accumulate over time though to eventually mean a big waste of time. I normally would rather the failure be a result of player mistake, and that element of surpise being a reward more organically through rewarding player decisions and skill.

    Overall I loved the direction and enjoyed the stream, thanks for reading!
  • KalTaraKalTara Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Okay so i'm just curious, will anyone be able to collect any resource regardless of your profession level or do you have to meet a certain profession level to collect certain higher quality/rarity resources? If you do have to meet a level requirement then how would that work with the mineral veins being unknown until mined?
  • Question:
    Will there be teamwork when it comes to gathering outside of what was explained already? What I mean is...

    Scenario #1:
    There is a rare or special resource in a cave; however, in that cave hides a dangerous beast. The gatherers/surveyors need to work with cobat-focused players to acheive the greater goal for their node/guild which is: Aquire some rare resources to progress or improve their node/guild while also progressing their own profession of gather, combat, surveying, etc.

    Scenario #2:
    There is a rare, mostly unknown resource you've learned about that sounds exactly like what you were looking for; the only issue is... None of the other [insert race/class here]s have ever seen it before. You learn that there is a mage that can summon a beast which holds this resource. He can only be summoned at a frozen mountain top. You find this Mage and he informs you that you need 3 Mages to be able to summon this creature. You bring 3 Mages, some warriors to fight the beast, and gatherers who have the skill to gather this resource.

    Scenario #3:
    There is a very dark forest that is highly dangerous to traverse. There is trecherous terrain, wild beasts, and unwelcoming inhbitants (intelligent NPCs to an lesser extent). You have the choice as the gatherer to find a Wood Elf who is willing to escort you through this terrain as they are friendly with the locals and can vouch for you. Another option you have is to fight your way through the locals and wild animals to the resources within. Perhaps you are sneaky enough to be effective as a solo gatherer, slipping in and out of the forest unnoticed.

    The resources could be specific to the ways you get them. This would mean that relationships would matter between races/classes. Being friendly with the Gnomes might be beneficial in a different way than being friendly with Orcs. This would make some very dynamic gameplay IMO.

    - This would help players feel like their race/class choice has some inherent benefits and unique interactions in the world.
    - It could help professions actually work together at the same time while progressing thier own skills.
    - It would help with role playing, immersion, and build social relations with players in game that is cooperative rather than simply combat interactions.

    Might be too much to achieve, maybe I'm missing some holes in this plan. I think that this could be a really cool aspect of gathering/surveying and I'm curious how other people feel about this idea.
  • HOMEHOME Member
    edited October 2022
    Id really hope at the very least if I devote myself to surveying and become good at it I could gain from that somehow, if that ties into archeology/map making if that's in the game then I could sell those maps that somewhat act as keys to access the nodes that were surveyed. would this make it more of a scribe thing yes no ??
  • Idea for co-op gathering: maybe make a player's gathering proficiency influence the material's drop rate, then make that a stackable area-of-effect around the player in the world (tapering off with distance-from-player, of course). For example, if one player with 50 mining mines a rock, he'll get a 5% chance for extra ore/stone but if two players (same mining proficiency) in a party, within close enough proximity of each other are mining, they get a 5% + x chance for an extra drop where x = (5% * (1/distance)).
    I think this should organically incentivise players to team up for gathering.
  • Gathering stuff looks very neat. There are however a few major improvements that come to mind for me. First up I think that tree branches should break off once they deform too much (although that could be quite a pain to implement).
    I love the idea of overpopulated areas having lower harvesting yields and forcing people to venture into other places and making caravans important.
    In terms of harvesting animations it feels like inverse kinematics are super necessary to implement (at least for the character of the current client) as the tools clipping into resource nodes feel plain awful, espetially compared to the physics based destruction.
    I believe that you went a bit too far in terms of not knowing what we'll get from a rock. It would be nice to have at least some hints based on art (such as orange tint meaning possibility of getting iron or copper). That way there's all the uncertaintity you wish to have, but we as players would have a bit more power over it.
  • Great work, team!

    My question is: What will stop players, with keyboard or mouse macros, to stay afk and mine same rock or chop same tree over and over again?
  • Vaknar wrote: »
    Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!

    Hello there, another update, another portion of my pov.

    requested feedback:

    visual fidelity:
    you've chosen to go 'hidden' visual resource with random drops of rare stuff inside, but I think at a certain point of the game it won't feel that good when you trying to hunt down only some specific material not the common stuff, so I'd love to see (alongside the random drop) if a truly rare resource spawn is even visually spottable and it would drop a lot more of particular stuff.... this rare spawn could be random to prevent farming, but it should be there, I can't imagine farming something endgame only by chance of random drop from common ones.

    looks good to me, trees look a bit like they are from rubber but nothing too terrible.

    resource availability:

    I like each resource is harvestable it makes a good immersion layer however this makes that particular resource very common and removes the good feeling from gathering it completely, would be nice if there will be a way to gather this really common resource by mass... perhaps with another profession or in science node with some heavy machinery and stuff, that would be cool af.


    I kinda imagine how this is done like in WoW, what they did with the archeology profession and that has NOT felt good for a long term, so if there will be something like that, pls make it only for valuable resources and special to use, perhaps to sell a map of "rare" spawns points for next 24hrs to other people, etc. it should NOT be an extra step to gather basics.

    land management:
    with this, I imagine weather, active node, and other dynamic stuff. According to sessions, there should be an equivalent for each basic resource during each session. + Some really rare ones that are also tight to a specific season should exist, but those should be required for really rare things to make later on in crafting. i.e: a plant that grows only during winter while it's totally rare and only occurs on top of mountains etc. stuff like that... very rare but not needed a lot

    sessions matter speaking, I'd love to see them following reality, so each session would have only one iteration during the year. I definitely do not like the idea of a weekly reset... if you really considering more iterations during the year I say a month is a minimum for each.

    my personal feedback:

    how to prevent abuse resource area:

    to prevent people from gathering a lot in one area, resources might start spawning elites and if those are killed they drop a lot of that common stuff but increase its power the next time they spawn so in a way... we could farm common resources at one place by combat... i.e: need an XY of wood for building a ship fleet, so we can decide to fight the forest itself by provoking it to spawn those creatures by gathering a lot at one place (remember what ents did to Nan Curunír in lord of the rings when Saruman make orcs harvest a lot?)
    at some point it could spawn a boss or something really tough to defeat that drops a sh*tload of basic materials...

    gathering specials:
    I like how 'enchanting' works in WoW, where you need an updated enchanting rod to craft better stuff, this would be awesome for gathering as well, having special crafting tools that actually allow me to gather faster and more basic stuff + gather the rare ones would be nice as well.

    gathering time:

    I personally would like to see some options to adjust my gathering tool, perhaps to gather from the mount, gather faster... some even instantly... or just get more stuff etc. choices like this I like.

    gathering pvp and griefing in general:

    rare resource spawn should definitely flag people PVP while gathering it, make us fight for the best ones.

    To griefing in general... I think you are overthinking it, it exists in every game.. there is no point to fight it and I as a rogue main can tell you one thing... take it away from me and I will find a way anyways if I want to bully someone.... so to prevent this, I think a simple "reskill" in certain time period should just make people involved in this situation rather buffed or debuffed against each other so i.e: a victim of let's say the third reskill would receive a buff against the aggressor that increase damage to him by x% and reduce damage taken by y%... I think that way you solve it simply and forever because at some point people would just stop because they can't continue or get mad because they will be killed in a few attacks even from a person who can't pvp... I'd call that buff simply a "revenge" :smile:

    as always keep the good stuff coming, hope this helps.. have a nice weekend.
  • mobtekmobtek Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    edited October 2022
    Lashing wrote: »
    I would like trees and other gatherables to combust into fire and ash when despawning simply because it fits the theme of the game.

    I'd rather they decay over a set time but that might be a bit of a big stretch systems wise. Could be cool visually being able to track 'poachers' in your node by following the downed trees :)

    Trees: Definitely going in the right direction. Bigger trees need smashing and breaking branches on impact with the ground. Stumps need to look like an axe has been at them unless you've used a saw with another player. I also would've liked to then harvest the downed timber, not just have it vanish, as if you then maximise your take.
    idea: mules with timber sledges load up your sledge as you go along and then drag it back to town :)

    Mining: Love the idea of using surveying and your mining skills to find the better ore bearing nodes, I like the not revealing the ore until the end. Animations wise this seemed a bit janky and the ore pick looked too small, smaller picks are great in tighter spaces underground but not in the open.
    Can the artisan skills for mining include chasing veins into mountains when your skill level is high enough?

    Gathering: Sickle looked okay but the side to side swish back and forth didn't do it for me and looked unsatisfying, when using a sickle you tend to go in one direction, back towards yourself
    Harvesting Wheat
    All in all good stuff :)
  • Loved the stream.

    Regarding land management, I am concerned that a depleted area could cycle based on the time of day [i.e. at 9pm it is always depleted due to the prime time players]
  • TylthulTylthul Member
    edited October 2022
    Overall the gathering system changes seem like a step forward and I'm looking forward to trying them. Love how it affects the overall land health and mob density. Love how seasons affect some fauna. A few questions came to mind as I watched...

    1) (Edit: I see this was answered in the post video QA. Seems like a lost opportunity for strategic gameplay behind the "pretty" if done right, but I understand the reasoning) Since falling trees have collision, do they do damage? i.e. If a tree falls onto a player or mob will it do damage? If it falls on a house, will it do damage? Or will they just clip through it? Related: Can you control the direction a tree falls to target a group of nearby mobs?

    2) There was a big emphasis on "any tree", which is great, but what about any rock? You seem to be only able to mine these rock eggs littered around the environment. Meanwhile the character is passing massive cliffs and hills. Can they mine those? I'm assuming we can't tunnel but even just mining the outside of a nearby cliffside would help.

    Speaking of which - Not sure how I feel about the rock eggs. You can often see mineral deposits in rock formations. Hiding them feels more gimmick than immersive. That said it may be a gimmick I like...I'd have to try it. I did like how the inside of the rock eggs change depending on what you find.
  • What if when you cut down a tree, you could spend some time chopping up the logs?
    I wanted to drop a line to say that the animation for felling a tree is awesome, but I don't really like how the tree simply disappears quickly once gathered, I think it would add a lot more immersion to the experience if once chopped down, the tree stays in that present state until the gatherer performs a secondary action of cutting the tree into pieces, it could be something simple and not an action of chopping all of the tree into pieces but just a simple secondary action to gather the wood once the tree has been chopped down.
    Doing something such as this with each harvesting skill would be really cool to add some key differences to different harvesting skills, perhaps when harvesting stone, you could pick axe the rock to expose the gems inside and then perform a secondary animation for more delicately removing the rare minerals from inside,
    Perhaps with gathering herbs it would be a simpler action of picking the leaves or flowers.
    etc. etc.
    I would love to see a secondary action with harvesting the wood from the fallen tree.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?

    I am concerned that there isn't enough demand for all the available resources in the world, and this will make these basic items be worthless. I hope you give all your attention to the Economy - it's all fun to be able to gather all the trees and rocks, but this might cause a lot of issues.

    I also hope that the land management system is meaningful enough to Actually cause scarcity and make players want to worry about it and protect their lands or invade others - if this is just a minor cooldown players won't really care about it. This should be robust enough to cause all the starting are nodes to kind of stop in their progression due to everyone gathering there and hurting the land, balancing those starting area nodes and making people want to move away.

    I also hope that the surveying system continues, I LOVE this feature from Star Wars Galaxies it was amazing! and I love to see you are using it, please make it meaningful and keep working on it!

    Also... I need to say, Please... be careful with SCOPE CREEP this is something that RUIN projects, and I feel like this changes and all the minigames are starting to cross the scope creep line. Make it simple, deliver the game, and add the details later on, that's my feedback.

    Also, it's all fun to show us stuff on the live stream, but the Real feedback comes from Testing, and with testing... I mean Actually having Tons of Data - we need to start spot testing soon, with NDA so we can actually help with good feedback.

    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • Overall, I love the direction the team is going with gathering. It’s clear the team has thought deeply through the system and been intentional in the design approach. Gasp often gathering feels like a bolt-on activity, and that’s definitely not the case with Ashes.

    The visuals, physics, and animations are striking. I’m glad you’re pushing the expectations on how immersive gathering will feel - particularly for those of us that spend a great deal of time gathering. I like that some resources are unknown before gathering, it’s a nice way to keep a player engaged in the process.

    I'm interested to learn more about how the world manager will work to throttle the availability and overall amount of resource in the regional economies at any given time. The regrowth mechanic is sweet, and I’m curious how that will evolve over A2 in conjunction with seasonal changes and the world manager.

    Really well done, Intrepid. Excited to test this more in A2.

  • First of all, the sounds of gathering are superb. The sounds of the axe and pickaxe strikes are fantastic. The physics are a great addition, but in their current state they are a little off. As someone who has cut down trees IRL before, they do have a bounce to them when they hit the ground and the branches do bounce in response to the impact, but as it stands the physics in-game are too bouncy. Also, trees fall down quite fast as they pick up momentum (Hence cutting down trees is a dangerous activity). The trees in game felt floaty and slow motion when they fell. Another thing to add is that it looks quite strange when the branches don't meet any air resistance as they fall. Branches on a tree that is falling are bent back a little by the air they are falling through. It seems like there is a trunk with large branches are affected by the physics, but not the smaller branches. I think the physics could be greatly improved by making the tree seem heavier and more rigid (but still a little flexible), and having the smaller branches react to the tree being felled.

    There was mention of having rocks that concealed what was inside of them, and rocks that were very clearly a precious metal or stone. For me, this is really a balancing act because I really don't want to feel like I'm playing a rock loot-box simulator. I do like a random element to add a little spice, but too much of it can really overpower the experience. Opening up a seemingly mundane rock to reveal a small deposit of something rarer is a nice bonus that gives the good brain chemical. But if it feels like in order to get the rarer materials or a bunch of certain material, you need to be bashing open every mundane rock in sight and pray to RNJesus, then that isn't a very compelling gameplay loop. In my mind, the joy of gathering is riding around and scanning the environment, and then spotting and identifying what you need. In the moments where you spot something rarer, there is moment of almost panic as this beautiful rock of gold or silver is on display for everyone to see, and so you need to quickly go get it because you know other miners are about. For me, the rocks need to predominantly display what they are with an added benefit of potentially having something extra on the inside. I would personally find it quite unengaging if most of the rocks looked the same and I had to bash them open to find out what they even are. It quite literally is subtracting an element of engagement with the world because you no longer need to differentiate between rocks, you just hit whatever without care.

    The surveying profession could reduce some of the issue of 'hitting whatever rock in sight without care' by recording information about where certain types of metals or stone are common. However, this isn't really going to address my main problem of engagement. In my opinion, gathering is at it's best when you are looking at the world and identifying things and differentiating between what you need and don't need. I'm not trying to say that this is a difficult or super entertaining task, but it's something that keeps the mind active and away from Netflix on the second monitor. It is also more conducive to emergent gameplay if players can all see what resources are there in the wild. There is a great deal of morality in whether you let someone finish killing the mob beside the rare node of metal, or do you take it for yourself while they are preoccupied? There are then social consequences for stealing nodes because it lays the seeds of revenge. It could be the small insignificant action that could lead to coordinated attacks on an opposing guilds caravans to get those resources back to their rightful owners. If most of what a mining node represents is a plain rock, and you and another miner mine two identical rocks beside one another, and one gets a common stone and the other diamonds, it becomes just a case of bad luck. But if you could both see that one is rare, then you would have both rushed to it creating a potential conflict.

  • SorcresSorcres Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?

    If i will focus for harvesting, i want to see that feeling i am better that someone who just started with it. I like if you are harvesting some type of materials and there is always chance to drop same material but with better rarity. For me is also really important to explore the world for specific materials. "Examle - If i need Snow flower, i need to move to snow biome. If i need cactus, i need to move to the desert. I dont like if every material is in every region.

    How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?

    It sounds interesting, but I don't like that I don't know what's hidden inside the Rock. I'd rather know exactly what material is inside.

    Are there examples of gathering systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
    I liked the Aion Gathering system, maybe it was simple but i really enjoy it. I was gathering for example Barries, but there was small chance to drop rare material from berries as "Color" for your cloths. And i exactly knowed what i am looking for and where i can found it. But every material was spawned in same time interval on same place and this part i did not enjoy it.

    New World has nice visual and sounds for gathering but i didnt like the direction you are able find most of materials in every part of the world. As i mentioned above, i like if you need to travel through world if you are looking for "snow Flower" which is only in Snow biome.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?

    I am not fan of hidden materials in Rocks, i would rather know what is inside before i start mining.
    1) Its looks much better if you see another type of rock, and not just rock.
    2) If i need something and i am travelling for it, i wont to bother with materials i dont need.
    3) Also if i will found rock with Iron, and for some time rock is spawned on same place, its will be again Iron or not? If yes, nothing was changed and this way i do not like it.

    And top of that, i am afraid of FAN WEB SITE, which tells you exactly where you can find specific materials.
    If you found way how to not support this sites, i would be really happy!

    Graphics and Sounds are amazings and you did great job!
    But the trunk should not be so straight.

    I am also afraid, if you are able to cut every tree, its can create server lags (if multiple people will be cutting in same area) and also UGLY environment in that are which could have bad visual feeling for me if trees will be growing long time.

    In New World, it was really fun from the beginning but later I stopped enjoying it, and felling trees was not fun.

    I've always been used to having the character kneel down when picking bushes or flowers, I'd like to see it in Ashes of Creation as well. I find it better than hunching while standing.
  • Sigtyr wrote: »
    Falling trees look awesome! Rocks breaking apart and revealing veins look awesome! I love how this works together with the idea of surveying as well. It further encourages group play as having friends who can survey will be incredibly important.

    I do think the branch physics could use just a little bit of polish, but overall I'm very happy with how everything looks.

    Agree, id like to see SOME of the wood stem / branches explode in a manner that it does irl when it falls over under immense preassure, they appeared to have a bit of a rubber property when some branches collided with objects
  • What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?
    - A sense of gathering skill progression and putting in the effort enables benefits like
    detecting more gather-able resources in the environment, more yields from gathering. The
    new visuals and physics are on point and is already awesome.

    How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?
    - Surveying is fine, but I feel I don't want it to become an additional layer of non-essential complexity.
    Maybe there can be a base level for players who want it to be enabled on their character to detect
    basic resources. Those who want to to pursue a higher-level "niche" Surveyor specialization can put
    in the effort to do quests/tasks and grind to upgrade it for rare/legendary items.

    What are your thoughts regarding the land management system?
    - I like the idea that seasons, special events (good or bad) in the world and
    player(s) activity influence the area.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?
    - I'm excited about the idea that mining rocks/nodes have a chance to get crystals/gold or other materials.
    - Maybe if you mine on cursed lands or unholy places, you get a high reward and high risk events, like your get
    a weapon or gold if lucky and then a curse (temp. de-buff) or damage if unlucky.
  • BotagarBotagar Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I love that all resources are harvest-able. Big Plus!
    Tree falling animation is great! I think having some of the branches sheer off would make the effect even better.
    I did feel like there was missing low frequencies in the thump of the tree fall. Maybe this was stream compression of audio? Quick spot test for A1,A2 key holders on this perhaps? :wink:
    Having birds fly off and squirrels jump off would be cute, but highly unnecessary.

    Looking at the big rocks... I wanna mine those too! Let us mine those!
    I like the aspect of mystery on hitting rocks. I think it would be good though with the increase of harvesting skills for say the texture on the outside of the rock starts to display hints of what is inside the rock.

    I like the idea of land management, but devil is always in the details and would like to comment on it further when its actually revealed.

    For surveying, i though EVE Online a very effective set of systems for detecting resources.
    For short range detection, a simple radius search works well (maybe something like activating a single pylon whilst its still in hand).
    For larger range detection and pinpointing of resources, the probe scanning system sounds close to what AoC might be aiming for with multiple pylons.

    Overall, very excited about the direction of harvesting! Keep up the good work :smile:

    and... LET US INNNNN~!
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