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[Feedback Request] Gathering System Update Shown in October Livestream

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Comments

  • Zenny9Zenny9 Member
    edited October 29
    Impressed with the improvements from alpha one!

    Few things I noticed that could be improved:

    • Characters axe when swinging at the tree should line up with where the tree was cut when falling over.

    • Trees should collide with other trees and not just the ground and objects like rocks (1:45:50 in twitch vod)

    • When the tree hits the ground I would love to see the snow visuals (and dust) sweep left and right along the log of the tree instead of just going up in the air, for a more immersive look.

    • Would like to see different animations for the bushes, such as the character hand picking the pedals or apples without a sickle.

    • Faster swing timers on the rocks or ores.

    Keep up the work guys :)


  • Loving the update, thanks you legends!

    You are hitting the nail on the head for my gethering preferences. Ie Random spawn locations, economic relevance driving my choice re what and where I harvest, scarcity, harvest what you see (although I was eyeing off those mushrooms! Gimme! And wondering about those bigger boulders - maybe I need a friend for those puppies?), really cool idea with cracking the rock up for the surprise inside. Epic visuals with the trees falling, you can see the love at work!

    Surveying system sounds great, looking forward to having a play with it. I'm wondering if in a group we'd be able to enclose a larger 'team' surveying area.

    Land management sounds really immersive, (economically and politically) and like it can tie well into driving quests as meaningful events. I'm wondering if the mayor could implement a preservation zone to counter aggressive harvesting,... ' you dear to kill the kings dare! harvest at your peril in my pop-up pvp zone!'
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Visuals

    I'm too much of an abstractor to have an opinion that I feel should be listened to here, but here's the feedback anyway.

    Uncanny valley, is my opinion of what I saw today. Probably the video didn't showcase it well? I feel MORE immersed when I can't cut down the whole huge tree, when the big rock doesn't split open and then fade away, when I have to pick up or further process it rather than 'chopping down a 50 foot tree and getting 5 logs'.

    Surveying

    Relative to the surveying... I like the idea, but if it isn't relatively quick, OR the areas aren't quite large, I would EXPECT it to not feel like it matters. However, all this is with the 'economic chains' running in the back of my mind, and I can't 'turn them off' even if they're probably inaccurate.

    Land Management

    The Land Management thing sounds like it could be fun, but I definitely wouldn't expect it to actually play out like one, given how players are, but I'm sure this response is just 'I don't have enough information and am speculating'. I could see this working in a low population game, though, so if that's the intention, then ok.

    So, my overall response to today's stuff is 'nonplussed, but likely due to my own biases, probably ignorable'.

    Keep going! I think even if it isn't for me, it'll still be great and lots of people will really love it. I'm not a main Gatherer, so even if my feedback isn't completely discarded, it should probably be weighted as low as possible.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • With the high visual fidelity shown, the short comings tend to stand out to me. The most jarring thing I noticed right away was the tree being cut a meter higher than where the axe was impacting. An additional feature that would add to the emersion would be a wedge deepening with each axe swing. When the wedge hits about half way through the tree, the rest can snap off leaving jagged wood on both parts.
    I would also like it if once the tree is cut down, you have to cut it up, increasing the time per tree but the yield would be commensurate with the size of the tree. Cutting down a 4 meter tall tree and only getting 5 logs feels wasteful. This would also encourage working with others on chopping a giant tree to speed up the process. Plus, I think it would look cool having 5 lumberjacks all working on the same gigantic tree laying on the ground.

    For mining rocks, seeing the rocks degrade and chip with each swing would be nice, slowly revealing what is contained on the inside.
    I think gathering of plants and herbs need a little more polish. Clean up the animation, maybe add it so that the player cuts off the part being harvested and pockets it instead of just hacking at it. Taking one aspect of the plant doesn't destroy the whole thing. Unless you're harvesting roots and pulling the whole thing out.

    One of the most important aspects for gathering to me is being able to dedicate a few hours to gather a particular resource. I would like to be able to go to a location known for having iron deposits, etc. I'm okay with things being randomized to a degree, but I think it would deter from my experience having to guess if what I'm mining is what I want. Surveying should prevent that but I wouldn't want to be hunting for iron in a place that was 95% basalt and 5% iron. Locations (POIs like mountains, caves, ravines or mines) that have an increased spawn rate for better mats where I could get a party together and go prospecting would be a better experience for me, as well was less lucrative solo locations.

    I really like the idea of land management, it would have to be iterated to get right. My main reservation is that the system would be too complex or nuanced for the majority of players to work together to nurture a healthy local environment. Tragedy of the commons is a real thing. I would want to avoid a situation where a location is going through a cycle of being healthy and barren because players won't bother learning the system and will destroy an environment, migrate to a healthy area, destroy that environment, repeat and go back when the old locations recover.
    Having a mayor being able to decree a moratorium that is easily disseminated to the local player base regarding an aspect of land management should help and sounds like its planned. Setting things such as a quota on a resource or banning the gathering/hunting of a certain resource. Maybe automatic fines for breaking the moratorium and being able to set lower gathering/hunting restrictions for citizens of the nodes versus non-citizens would encourage following the moratorium and foster a sense of community.
  • AesAes Member
    I do like this as a first pass for gathering. I'd like to see there be a little more interaction to the collection of mats - not quite a mini-game, so to speak - but instead to see additional steps so that gathering is a more engaging activity to draw my attention to the task at hand. Examples - active swings to chop the tree, gathering ores that have shattered around the mining nodes, etc. The physics animations are very exciting and I'm really drawn toward your overall visual goals. Keep up the great work!
  • This already looks better than any other gatherable gameplay that I have experienced in other MMORPGs, so bravo and well done. I feel a bit nitpicky with critiques here but these are the things that can make a good system great or a great system the new gold standard for gameplay.

    Lumberjacking: I am not a professional, but I have cut down a large number of trees for firewood as well as to clear a field for planting.

    The physics of the tree falling looked great. As a previous poster mentioned though, the stump should look more angled than flat. The wood chips flying while chopping was a great touch. I think a more impactful sound upon landing would be beneficial, when a large tree falls IRL everyone around knows it.

    Trees have varying hardness and different tree species should be easier/harder to chop down such as pine vs. oak. Correct tools as well as the strength and skill of the user should effect felling time. I personally would rank them in the order of tool/skill/strength as most to least importance.

    Trees also have a wide range of growth times with generally soft wood growing faster than hardwood.

    Dropping the tree is actually the easy part. After felling, branches need to be removed and the trunk needs to be cut into moveable lengths. These logs would then be moved to a processing area to be turned into planks.
    Would a mule/horse be needed to drag these logs to a processing area?

    The larger trees should require groups to gather, a single person could not reasonably process a giant tree. It would be incredibly easier and more time efficient to gather many small to medium sized trees than for one person to gather a huge tree.
    If this negatively effects gameplay then possibly limit the number of mega (group gatherable) trees.

    Well, this post is already getting too long. Thanks for allowing us feedback.






  • Sigtyr wrote: »
    Falling trees look awesome! Rocks breaking apart and revealing veins look awesome! I love how this works together with the idea of surveying as well. It further encourages group play as having friends who can survey will be incredibly important.

    I do think the branch physics could use just a little bit of polish, but overall I'm very happy with how everything looks.

    The first comment says it all. It is really a strong strong foundation! it can be polished animation and even sounds wise a little, but a really really great start.

    I think sound design is very important when it comes to crafting. New World, though I ended up not playing it much, the echoing of tree chops really does wonders of bringing the world to life. So sound design is important.
  • arsnn wrote: »
    Land Management

    For the land management i got big concerns.
    I think people are incentivized to follow their current needs in mmos (i need 10 wood) and not make long term decisions, as play sessions and long term engagement with mmos are limited.

    From how i understand for every resources the player is faced with decision
    Do i grief the ZOI?
    Do i rely on the next guy to encounter the resource is not gonna grief the ZOI?
    Do i wait and come back for the tree to fully develop?
    <snip>

    These are good questions/concerns on land management. The idea makes sense and can be fun in single player or small scope games, but I don't know how it could work in an MMO. A small group of people seem like they could cut down tons of trees in a small amount of time? Depending on cut down time, resource respawn time, inventory, and all that.

    Is there a way the land management could be done in a more active way? As opposed to "don't cut down all the trees". Because out of 100's or 1000's of players, SOMEONE is going to cut down those trees.

    Examples:
    Option when gathering to only gather partial resources, but do it in a "healthy" way that promotes land health (whatever that means). It's a bit of a self sacrifice, but a group of players that care about the node could have an impact.
    Planting seeds or something active to do?
    Tie it in with events. An event has two choices, one gives more immediate rewards, the other promotes "land health". Or have the options tied to resource type. Rock monsters are fighting tree monsters. Help the rock monsters to promote ore stuff, or help the tree monsters to promote tree health.

    I like this kind of idea better than something that would involve PvP patrolling 24/7 or trying to herd 100's of cats with different priorities than you to not do something. Those seem like chores, and too likely to fail, and therefore be pointless.
  • IllyriniaIllyrinia Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    About Surveying
    - Shows Concentration of resource (i.e., Resource Gathering Video from SWG
    )
    - Survey Mini Game - resonance configuration of tool changes per zone/resource/season.
    - Rare/Legendary should NOT be detectable. should be random location each time and limited respawn.
    daily/weekly/monthly depending on type.
    - Resource Mapping for surveyors. i.e., Ultima Online you could sell in-game books you made to people
    looking for the rarest minerals. With resources constantly changing this adds a need/income for the
    surveyors.

    About Mining
    - Ability to construct a Mine. Case for multi-gatherer. Subterranean Housing system with Storage – Can use a
    backpack/horse/caravan to haul mining resources back to town/home. Variables based on GM skill level.
    (More Concealed, More Secure, Larger Mine, Mine Faster, Mine Safer, Mines Life Span)
    - Love how minerals are not shown unless mined first.
    - Random Location of Resource NEEDED and would help prevent bots and resource camping. incentivizes
    exploration.


    About Resource Harvesting
    - RANDOM Resource location, density percentage, and quality (Highest Quality only show once a month then
    depleted).
    examples:
    Poor Copper avail all the time, Medium / High daily and weekly. Pure Quality would be once a month.
    Plant quality/quantity – based on weather/season
    Resource Quality affecting crafted item str/effects/quality/success rate etc.
    i.e. Star Wars Galaxies resource location and resource quality was randomized weekly/monthly.
    - Resources Located outside towns will constantly be depleted and overharvested. i.e., New world people
    would just pop outside time and harvest basic trees/stone over and over.
    - NO Multi Player Harvesting required / Maybe for increase speed of harvest only / will cause Bot issues.
    - Rare Resources in specific zones only/Needs to be randomized locations in that zone.
    i.e. Eve Online - gave reasons to take control over zones with valuable resources and made for great pvp.
    Also makes for good pvp when going after those gathering said resources. Leads to people scouting choke
    points for the people gathering, for alerts purposes, and pvpers being stealthy trying to sneak up on people
    gathering.
    - Underwater Resources ?
    - Report System like Eve Online - https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/monthly-economic-report-july-2022
    would not say needed in-game more outside API/URL system.

    About Crafting/Gathering
    -Ultima Online’s trade card system. (Bulk Order System -
    https://www.uoforum.com/wiki/index.php/Blacksmithing_BOD_Rewards#Normal_Items)
    LOVED this system in crafting and gave reason to interact and trade other players for rare orders. not directly
    relevant to gathering but the quality of resource used effected the
    quality of the reward.

    Concerns
    - ****BOT Farming / Resource Camping.****
    - LandManagement when everyone harvests the forest/stone around a town out specially in release/new zone
    areas. Maybe overharvesting lowers quality of resource instead of affecting respawn.
  • I think having the mineral resource nodes be unidentifiable prior to harvest is a neat idea, but what if high level gatherers had some sort of mineral knowledge that would allow them to estimate the chances of certain types of ore being present in the rock prior to harvesting?
  • OnyStyleOnyStyle Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I love the animations for the felling of trees!

    I am not really sold on the mining and surveying and land management.

    Mining:
    While surveying sounds interesting, I dont see it being a useful mechanic. Ultimately, surveying would only be useful if there was enough RNG to make it so players never know what areas something spawns in. I.e, today gold spawns in this area that I have surveyed, but tomorrow only iron. This seems strange as resources shouldn't be changing so suddenly without a reason. I.e, maybe a weather change etc. But then you would only need to survey once more and then you would have knowledge of that area until the next major event happens.
    With that being said, I ultimately see this as a totally useless skill because stuff like that will be figured out by the player base regardless. And if its a useless skill, then should it even really exist?

    Land Management:
    This is one of those things that SOUND really cool when you first hear about it, and then just sounds like a headache in practice. I think the idea of it applying to monsters is really cool and when certain thresholds are met say there is a giant wolf that spawns and the pack(s) need to be killed in order restore balance. Etc. But applying that to harvesting as well just sounds like a headache. I would need to test this and see how it plays out, but ultimately if this can have permanent consequences instead of temporary ones, I am not sure I would enjoy the system.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    edited October 29
    Minor Visual Feedback

    ONE - Snow Particles

    When chopping trees or mining rocks during winter - there should be particle effects.

    Trees - The vibration of the hit, rustles the leaves and bark to sprinkle down snow.

    Rocks - hitting it with the pick causes snow to burst into air upon each hit.

    TWO

    Suggestion - Is it possible for TREES to have it's own HP and DMG that counts ONLY towards other trees?

    I get, not wanting trees to do dmg n hurt players - but if you're able to design big mobs clearing out trees out of the way, it would be nice to see a VALHALLA esque system - when one tree falls down, if it falls on another tree - there might be potential for it to break.


    THREE

    Tree Physics

    While almost along the lines of #2 - It still looks a bit comical with how it rubberband itself.
    Is it possible to make the top piece break apart.
    Visually speak - when a tree lands on a large boulder - it snaps in half or whatever?
    Maybe this can effect yield results too with group gathering.
    Failure to remove the boulder, caused the tree to break in half, losing a considerable amount of yeild.


    FOUR

    Plants - Visually - I didnt like it. Looked weird with a sickle. looked awkward.
    Maybe Plants should have a dynamic visuals. Depending on the type - it can be hand picked, sickled, proned position, crouch position - but currently what was displayed - not a fan.
    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • truenoirtruenoir Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    • What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?
      I like the amount of effort that has been put in thus far. I like that you guys are making harvesting change based on the time of season I think that's really unique. The one main stress that I always have is whether or not the things gathered are useful. A lot of times in games they go with some tier system that gatherable's become useless as you get higher levels. I'd rather see ashes keep the usefulness of all materials like even if there will be a tier system of progression that all previous materials can be used just requires more of the base tier to level up. This way the usefulness of say the redwood logs isn't overshadowed the higher level you get.
    • How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?
      I think the surveying system is a pretty cool idea especially if we don't know exactly what gatherables and area has before attempting to gather them. It would also be pretty interesting to see the surveying system be used to spot hidden chests or things that might not be visual as well.
    • What are your thoughts regarding the land management system?
      Honestly this system seems unique I don't think ive really seen a game that had a land management system where we effect the ecosystem and I think it brings a new level of realism to a mmorpg. It seems a little complicated like it would be hard to implement the system and have balance and the other implication I'm also wondering is if we get over run with bots farming resources into the ground that could hurt us cause while some players might be trying to let the resources regrow others could be hurting them. But fortunately being a PvP game having the option to kill those bots does make it harder for them as well which is good.
    • Are there examples of gathering systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
      I did like how farming could be in archeage and the idea of rare resources such as trying to get thunderstruck trees but over all when it comes to how most games handle resources and the overall experience ashes is trying to pick from all different games and really bring on the best features. I think when it comes to most games they don't even try to put effort into those systems. I played a really old mmorpg called conquer online which was a pvp everywhere type of game and when you mined in an area you had a chance to mine special gems which could be used in gear but being pvp everywhere people would look for miners in the mining cave to kill them for that resource and mining was more sit in the same spot for hours with a 0.01% chance to mine those rare resources but that wasn't really fun.
    • Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?
      Only fear like I said was effect of bots on the ecosystem and that we make sure that resources are useful and don't get outdated.
  • If there is a risk of depleting resources and affecting a whole, is there any way, for example, trees, accelerate their growth with some skill or tool? Even a type of race that is linked to nature that when cutting a tree, that race will have a buff that will decrease the growth time of the tree. Sorry if this question has already been answered.
  • What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?
    Inter-connections with the crafting professions so that all resources stay relevant as a server progress. There should always be a certain demand/need for low level resources, even when most players on the server are near max level.

    How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?
    From the little I know of the survey system, it doesn't seem to be for me. The explorer in me see it as a shortcut, a cheat. I'd rather do the surveying with my own feet. But for those who want to be efficient, sounds like a useful tool.

    What are your thoughts regarding the land management system?
    Considering we barely do it in the real world, I'll press X for doubt as far as trusting players to be responsible in a game. That being said, having ways for node mayor to promote certain actions regarding land management is interesting.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?
    I find the idea of group gathering interesting. It might be a good incentive for gatherers to team up instead of doing so only to protect each others. I wouldn't even mind if it was mandatory to extract some rare resources, so long as not the norm.

    I know the regrowth rate was sped up, but a neat thing if the normal rate was rather slow (at least for some type of resources) would be to get different resources depending of the stage of growth. The roots of a young plants can be harvested to make medicine, if you wait for it to flower you can make something else with the petals or fruits, just before winter the leaves are just ready to make some tea... Once harvested it's gone, but depending at what stage it is picked you have different results. Can be a challenge to wait for the mature status if what it yields when young is also desirable.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • EuphorrixEuphorrix Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 29
    What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?
    I love the gravity and physic effects. I love how even at this level there are risks involved and many layers to achieving an in depth aspect of gathering. Surveying, though not interested, I can see the benefit and how it can alter the normal way a person could obtain nodes, instead of a 'best farm route map' with nodes at X,Y that spawn every 12 mins.

    How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?
    I love the idea of the depth to this, though not a in depth gatherer player, I like the interest this could bring and the variety to the game play. Something I am interested in, is what is the offset to this? EG - if i spec into surveying, then what could i lose out on in the talent trees. I like how it can be evolved on based on player interaction and skill point allocations, definitely will try it, and who knows, many the lack there of needing a missing brain to farm might be joyous for me.

    What are your thoughts regarding the land management system?
    I love the idea of how player involvement can dictate respawn rates and rarities etc. So far what was pitched was amazing, keep it up!

    Are there examples of gathering systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
    As much as I am pained to say this, New World. But I like it for its free form, and the audio and visuals. When I was watching the update all I thought about was how much better this is than that. Maybe a second pass on the sounds, not the impact and use sounds, but like the environment sounds, like echos from a pick.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?
    I would like to know more about what goes into making a node 'more mature' and the rates of land management for it. I am also concerned that the end game locations will be 'over farmed 24/7' therefore making more scarceness to the needed endgame resources and such.
    Another concern was the flowers and how they just 'fell on the ground in the air' though im sure this is only a bug and will be addressed.

    Other aspects/ideas:
    I would like to see a bit more... ruggedness to the 'transformation' of the final stage of the gathering. EG - The trees harvest line seems.. too straight. I want to see some snapped tree trunk and bark and some of the branches breaking with physics when impacting in the ground, maybe like a break point on branches.
    I am also interest in the impacts that the trees have. Will it cause damage? will there be a chance that a flying arrow could be intercepted by the tree falling?
    I would also like to see some rocks shatter or be different color/shapes/sizes (im sure this will come) that indicate materials itself so that you can 'learn' what rocks and such to look for out in the opened that does not involve surveying, i feel like/ am worried this will be a meta / min/max / only way to gather, and there wont be an incentive for players out exploring or questing to stop and gather cause their procs are trash.
    I would also like to see a floral blooming effect from the flower, they kinda just 'popped' from bulb to flower, which made me sad. Like a gymnasts missing their landing, the trick was cool, but the dismount was a flop for me. I could spend the early dawn or late dusk watching these bloom.

    A bizzare WAY left field idea:
    The wandering Ogre, what if he caused a fire, or the dragons we fight in the open world, hell even lightning caused a forest fire. Could we 'employee' firefighters from players to deforest a bit to STOP the fire from spreading to the town and causing damages.

    Follow Up Idea:
    I know before there was talks of the volcanoes errupting, what other disasters can we expect to see? Tsunami / Flood? Torandos? could these cause damages that need repairs to towns/player housing?

    I have a view in my head of a caravan moving through, and a forest fire is about and the trees fall over needing to be dodges and moved around to prevent damages and fires from spreading to the caravan causing additional damage and status effects.
  • PiriPiriPiriPiri Member
    edited October 29
    Trees: Have a variety of trees that grow in certain times, seasons, and locations. Make some trees shakable to drop fruit/coconuts. Plantable trees on your land. Having branches snap off upon landing would be a cherry on top.

    Rocks: Keep the resources inside the rocks randomized from node to node. Having the same rock always spawn iron will just lead people to staring at an online resource map and following a gathering path guide. I like the idea of Rock slot machines, I would actually prefer that over designated nodes. Having really rare nodes where the material you will mine is already visible is good to sprinkle in. Mining a juicy node full of gold or diamonds feels good. Have giant nodes or rocks that can be mined and broken apart multiple times.

    Herbs: Have really rare herbs that only spawn 1 at a time.

    Bugs?: Make bugs gatherable maybe? Catching stuff that runs away in Animal Crossing was satisfying. Could be used in alchemy or cooking.

    Surveying: I love the idea. Some sort of global surveying for top tier cities would be awesome. You could even add a metal detector game that beeps more frequently when you get to a resource to search for specific gatherables.

    Sound: New World had an AMAZING sound design where cutting trees and mining rocks would sometimes create an echo in areas like mountains. That was the most satisfying thing to listen to when gathering. Adding echo to the game in general would be fantastic.

    Market: Make all resources required for even higher end crafting to ensure they retain value past the "leveling crafting" phase. Be careful, New World had a serious issue where crafting required one degree more of the lowest material the higher the material you upgraded to, leading to the lowest tier material being the highest in demand and the middle tier material being entirely worthless.

    Farms: PLEASE add a farming system. Farms could be either on your land or in an instanced area. Setting a good chunk of land to housing only, like in Archeage, would be ideal so that everyone could farm, not just the bourgeois.
  • dropbear1974dropbear1974 Member
    edited October 29
    I have no issues with the current iteration and agree it’s way better than the vast majority of games.

    I personally would love to see this system expanded to be more realistic in terms not just chopping down a tree etc.
    If a tree is chopped down it should then need to be cut up, you could have crafting ability for gathering create say a portable lumber station and require a cart or the like in order to get materials back to town etc. Mining may have a mobile crushing plant and a cart to transport stone or ore to really make this an immersive skill and gameplay.

    This would allow you to really feel like you were actually doing this as a job/role etc and make gathering truely fun and immersive and not just chop and fill your bag until your encumbered, rinse and repeat. It would take time and effort which gives it worth, instead of every person playing being a gatherer, crafter etc only people who truly devoted time into this would do it which will make the valuable to the communities.

    Essentially you don't want everyone to be a gather/crafter like other MMO's lately. Supply and demand, risk and reward, market pricing and accessibility etc you want people who want to gather or craft doing this to make them an integral part of the world and community.
  • YinKirbyYinKirby Member
    edited October 29
    My main concern about this is centered around the mining of the rocks and the random potential of getting different items. I do like the feature being in the game, but I am worried about finding exactly what I want when it comes to mining specific resources. If we want some resources to be rare and hard to find, it would be painful to get a large amount based on mining different rocks and occasionally surveying the one you want. If basalt is to common, iron to be uncommon, silver to be rare etc., I would like to see pockets of rocks either in caves, mountains, unknown areas to be generalized areas where those resources are more common. Having specific areas where these rare resources can be found can be a bottle neck (people camping the resources/ being protected by pvp players to keep a potential monopoly) and you have already made a number of solutions. I would just like to see pockets of the resources spread throughout the nodes and have the frequency of them showcase the rarity of them on top of the rng mining. I wanted to point out the emphasis of variety and ease of access to resources while potentially keeping the rarity of them between each node (the more variety of accessing the different resources while keeping the rarity in order to keep economy and diverse and healthy).
  • Definitely loved that the gathering professions were close to valheim/new world. In New world, you could hear other trees chopping/falling nearby and the sound engineers did a great job to ensure sound travelled from the direction of the felled tree and it was super immersive! is that planned?

    When surveying, if there are no minerals worth mining in the rocks, will they just be left there and never mined? Seems like a wasted opportunity? Perhaps over time those rocks could produce hidden veins inside so the asset will always be used.

    Are we able to have Co-op lumbering and bring out a 2 person saw? Have you seen how Lost Ark does this? Makes farming timber resources faster and worth it if you want to bring a fellow lumberjack.

    When trees are cut down in real life, they usually have whats known as a hinge cut to allow them to fall in the correct direction, are you able to modify the stumps to appear they have broken off at the hinge? Example below.

    0y1fkme8toqi.jpg

  • Harvesting the winter plant looked really bad as it shouldnt explode into the air like it did.
    apples shouldnt be on the ground after being harvested.
    Make surveying a profession so not everyone can do it. A survey should give you a map for the area that can be sold to another player, and only with that map can the hidden / best resources be found.
  • I think the plan of not being able to tell which gatherable can be collected on a stone cluster/node is a little bit too limiting. Gathering takes time, and if you spend time mining and you can't get the specific resource that you wanted, I can imagine it being too frustrating for gatherers. I can see that this will increase the value of the Surveying skill, but I think without the ability to gauge what kind of gatherable it would be at a glance will make mining too reliant to Surveying if the miners would want to be as efficient as possible. So how about we narrow down the RNG a little bit by grouping certain gatherables to a certain kind of cluster/node, just like what Subnautica has (sorry, cant think of any better example)

    For example:
    Stone Node A might have stone, iron, basalt, coal, etc.
    Stone Node B have silver, platinum, gold, etc.
    and of course, they would have different appearance so that the players can tell them apart at a glance.
  • I enjoy the physics of the tree and the thud sound upon impact with the ground. I would like to see chunks of the tree missing as it gets closer to falling over instead of the load bar but I dont know how doable that is. Their a little rubbery, but I have cofidence you can tweak it just fine.

    I also love that the gathering nodes have individual stages based on when they were removed. Being able to see them grow in real time is gonna be lit. The flower physics feel like they explode instead of just fall apart maybe add more weight to the individual pieces so it looks like its wilting.

    I like the idea that the rocks have hidden objects because it means people will either blindly gather them and reduce the amount in the area or they can get the survey skill and use it to find what they actually want.
    Survey skill should definetly be tied to the gathering proffession level or made its own thing so you would have to choose mining and surveyor instead of mining and blacksmith. However there should be a pattern so that players can still find a general area of where to find resources so they arent totally locked from leveling their proffessions because copper takes 20 minutes to find vs every rock has salt.

    I forsee on launch most of the starting zones going barren very early and that sets up serious monster attacks on towns(monster coin event?). I also see Druid npc monsters possibly having a skill that could effect growth speed of trees and bushes while walking through the forest. Players killing the druids not knowing what they do and making the area barren faster. These npc could be a monster faction that if you grow things the rep improves or if you destroy things the rep falls till they aggro you.

    Or give players a way to help grow back resources like items or node quest maybe?

    Allow resources to grow back faster if there are no players nearby or even add faster resource growth to special node types like Divine or Science nodes. Call them acts of *god/gods* or scientific breakthroughs. Military and Economic nodes would have slower resource growth, but would benefit in other things.

    I think I would like co-op gathering if the only thing it does is make gathering certain resources faster. If its required for certain resources it will feel unnatural and forced. For the resources being increased in the environment I beleive its a very good change because it will have an impact on players choices and how they shape the world.

    Players in the begging will strip mine all the available resources on launch and that will push them out further from their nodes so the world will be explored more, but it will also cause players to become more defensive of the nature around them as time passes because it will make their pretty game a wasteland if they dont curb the greed of their fellow players.

    New PVP option opens up:

    These new *wasteland* circles could become small pop-up pvp zones upon a certain resource depletion percentage where players can stop gatherers without going red. All players start green when going in the zone -> go purple if they gather in this wasteland zone -> get Pvped by environmentalist protecting resource growth numbers. This will preserve the environment ingame and give a meaningful reason to pvp.

    Without a way to curb fellow players behavior beyond going red a living world with resources will be drained quickly by hoarding and greedy psychopaths who wont care about the worth of animals or trees, but simply enjoys destroying those things because they can. Building a nice breathing world and then dropping invasive species like human players into it will break whatever balance you are expecting. Resource speed and events would be needed to curb the murder hobos mentality.

    Allow animal husbandry to gather animal materials from animals caught in the wild by raising them like cattle, sheep, rabbits, ect. example: I find 2 rabbits and capture them with a net. I have a farm freehold to place them in or a dedicated room in an apartment. They drop rabbit hide that can be crafted into pieces of full leather passively, but they breed to quickly and become *unhappy*. Their space is too small so they stop producing hide. I take the old rabbits who are ageing out and release them in a heavy predator zone. This gives a small percentage boost to herbavore spawn growth. Too many players are releasing rabbits. Predators spawn is increased and level/stat boosted. Even high level players are pushed out of the location. Spawn rates are set back to default 3-5 hours later. Resources have recovered during this time.

    These are all ideas thrown at the wall and definetly have flaws but hopefully some of these have merit.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    JustVine wrote: »
    I wanted good economy play, PvP and immersive farming. This farming has potato trees. As someone who spent decades of their life gardening I cannot tell you just how unhinged and immersion breaking that is. Hope the rest of you have fun. I'm out.

    Can you explain what you mean by the potato trees comment please?
  • What aspects of the gathering system are important to you?
    Being able to interact with as much of the world as possible. It's the direction being taken so I'm very happy.

    I also really appreciated the minimal AI and the little animated pulse that it did when chopping/mining/harvesting.

    How do you feel about the interaction between the surveying and gathering system?
    Interesting but will come down to implementation. Will this information be available through menus and UI or will it utilise more dynamic gameplay layers like an animated "pulse/radar" your character emits that shows the location of a particular type of resource? Or some kind of filtered vision mode which allows you to see hidden resources, or will these be shown on the map? Lot's of questions, really need to see more.

    What are your thoughts regarding the land management system?
    I think it is important to have actions that players can do to negate negative impacts on the land. If the map is broken up into Node's ZOI and you can see a breakdown of the resources in that area. If/When a resource "health bar" decreases, you should be able to do something that helps increase it again. (Like planting trees if the region is being too heavily chopped)

    Are there examples of gathering systems in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
    Albion Online has a decent interdependence when it comes to gathering, which means that all tiers (there are 8 in the game) are in demand. Like having refined versions of a lower Tier wood needed in the refinement of a higher-tier wood. Having enchantments of different tiers (visually denoted by glowing magical butterflies) adds a nice little visual flare and makes certain trees really stand out.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the gathering system?
    I think that the character animations could use another pass. They are fine, but I feel like both the axe and pickaxe swing could have more weight. The Sickle could do with an additional step, like placing into a side satchel (Or where one would be)

    Not seeing Hunting/Fishing. I wonder if gathering hide will be straightforward- see an animal>kill animal>stabbing animation at corpse>corpse disappears>hide in inventory? or will there be more to it?

    Perhaps you skin it once and it leaves a sinewy red meat version and then you can "skin" it again to get meat which leaves a skeleton and "skin" it again to get the bones. There would be 3 "layers" to the animals. The hides used in crafting leather gear, the meat in crafting foods and the bones in crafting potions.

    You guys have the system pretty much down. It's now about making sure there's plenty of substance and depth. Unlocking the ability to be able to use high-end tools which allow you to cut down high-end resources should be a significant investment in time and effort. There should also be a significant amount of variation in the different "types" of wood. Different tiers, enchantments, rare magical trees and super rare localized types. All used in refining and crafting.
  • ManueljfManueljf Member
    edited October 29
    .
  • ManueljfManueljf Member
    edited October 29
    HOW TO REDUCE CHAOS IN LAND MANAGEMENT

    Some ideas on reducing this chaos and making resources feel more meaningful.

    Make each unit of gatherable resources take a little more effort to acquire. This could be introduced in various levels or layers according to how much we want to reduce player overexploitation and related chaos.

    1. Soft layer: Increase time and duration of animations for each gathering action of each rock/tree/bush/etc. This could include adding more steps for gathering like in the case of lumberjacking having the tree's wood be chopped off for a few more seconds after the tree has already fallen, making it a two step lumberjacking action. Similar things could be added for other materials.

    2. Medium layer: In addition to first layer, add limits to the inventory capacity. Maybe based on number of items or based on weight. Not too realistic or inmersive to have a player carry 500kg of iron ore or a ton of wood in their bags while at same time carrying all the gear and other items.This also increases relevancy of caravans and enriches the game. Could also have player speed be reduced when carrying too much weight.

    3. Heavy layer (future expansions): In addition to first two layers, add a small resource wagon/cargo animal gameplay. It would require player to own a specialized, slow moving animal, for carrying heavy loads. This would improve and enrich animal husbandry system. It would be different type of animals than the ones used for mounts, move more slowly than caravans and have much less item space so it doesn't steal caravans job. In case we want to further prevent these animals from overtaking caravan job we could introduce a feeding system for them so they have to be fed from time to time to be able to continue doing their job.

    4. Super heavy layer (future expansion): In addition to the first three layers, create node ecological crisis events and various problems for whenever player start overexploiting certain resources in an area. Devs already mentioned something like this but the new idea would be to add disturbing events like plague, droughts, land erosion affecting farming, hostile creatures showing up with increased aggresiveness, etc.


    The first two layers can be done without scope creep. The third and fourth layer could be implemented in future expansion for more immersion and realism.

    I will leave one video of what happens when player overexploitation is not controlled.

  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 29
    1. Visuals/Physics

    Please be careful you don't put yourself in a "visual realism" trap here. You just got out of that trap with character design by changing to a more stylized/cartoony look for the races.

    You showcased a direction for the game you want feedback on, and that is awesome. Clearly the physics aren't there yet, and it was very "uncanny valley" what we saw on the stream with the rubber branches and the tree trunk clipping through another tree. And that's the danger. Unless you can absolutely NAIL the physics of this (notice the lack of bounce?) within a reasonable amount of time, I would very much prefer you come up with a stylized/cartoony version of a tree falling or rock splitting than a realistic look.

    Part of what worries me here is how Alex himself said it was hard to tame the physics, and it seems like a very non-trivial task to get it to look and feel good once you've gone down the path of realism.

    This is honestly the first part of the game changes I have seen over the years where I am thinking "scope creep", because this won't look right unless you really nail the physics, and I think that will take a lot of time and effort that is better spent elsewhere for much more impact. In my opinion, adding this level of realism and visual fidelity is something better suited for an expansion, once you have a whole team of experienced programmers who can dedicate all their time to getting it near perfect. The Uncanny Valley is not a good place to be in.

    2. UI

    I really loved the minimalist UI when gathering. Great job there. Like others have said, an easy way to turn off the white dot would be nice though, or it would quickly be annoying and immersion-breaking.

    3. Land management

    Depending on the implementation, we are going to experience a LOT of tragedy of the commons in Ashes with the proposed system. From a social experiment point of view, this could be interesting. Extra Credits did a great video on this from a gaming perspective a few years back:


    I fear we are going to see the player base descend on the land like locusts and ravage the land and completely kill the beautiful world of Verra. A hundred players alone can empty out a large area in no time, and "panic" gathering and hoarding will become the norm, like we see in RL when people perceive a potential shortage. It's going to be very visual in Ashes with the new change.

    Before the change from A1 with gathering nodes spread out, to now where everything can be harvested, this was much less of an issue from a visual point of view, and to some degree also from the "panic" gathering and hoarding point of view, because resource depletion wasn't visually obvious, so there were fewer triggers.

    It will likely attract a lot more botting to the game, because that's also how tragedy of the commons works. People want to at least get some before it's all gone, and screw the consequences. With the way advanced botting has progressed to a point where even other players and live GMs have a hard time discerning which is which, the effects of this system will be exacerbated. In other words, this land management system will end up requiring even more resources allocated to combating botting, and the importance of it will increase.

    It's not all doom and gloom. With the right implementation and the right tools and incentive systems to stop the tragedy of the commons effect, this system could be amazing.

    It's not enough to simply get negative node reputation if you gather in a ZOI where you are not a citizen. There has to be an active way to stop the eco-terrorism and resource "theft" by unguilded non-citizens that doesn't involve corruption or similar heavy penalties placed on those who try to protect the land and resources.

    Eve Online comes to mind, but Eve had a built in advantage with how most of the valuable resources were in null-sec where PvP was completely open and only controlled by players. We only have that in the ocean in Ashes, not in the ZOIs on land.

    I am very much looking forward to hearing more about this, and about the policies that Steven mentioned that could be put in place to mitigate/stop players laying waste to the land.

    4. Surveying

    On paper it sounds ok I think, but I need a ton more info to really have an informed opinion.
  • IronhopeIronhope Member
    edited October 29
    I like the visuals but that's about it.

    I would like if there was a minigame which you have to do correctly to maximize the results.

    This would fit well with the PvP nature of the game (you can't look around for foes while focusing on the minigame, you need a friend to guard your back... or you just take a risk).

    I also feel like the thing should take longer and make more sound (the same way sound works in New World).

    Finally, I believe cutting down the tree should be only the first step.
    After that, you would have to process the fallen tree right there, which again, would take more time and potentially multiple trips from the fallen tree to a Lumer Mill.

    I also really love the idea of co-op gathering (beyond simply having someone to guard your back as you do it)
    I actually wrote a whole topic on it

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/51600/super-resource-events#latest

  • AidanKDAidanKD Member
    edited October 29
    I first want to actually reference @arsnn 's post with the attached video about Ultima Online and their experience with an ecology system! Great video and I think it's really relevant from what we have heard in this livestream. I think I agree that if you are going to have people absolutely tearing down the landscape of all its gatherables - does that mean that in the biggest nodes, gatherables are going to be scarce? If people are actively farming, then of course there will be more scarcity - but I am curious if it's going to be as simple as balancing out respawn numbers.

    Another point - how will the progression work when it comes to gathering things and how developed we are in a particular life skill - will it actually prevent us from gathering certain nodes? At the moment rocks essentially don't give away what they are, will a low-level miner essentially have access to ALL nodes, but just the chances of successfully harvesting rarer items are low? Or is it the case that there will be an inability to harvest certain nodes until we achieve a certain skill level?

    I think my one ask is don't go TOO CRAZY - with the ecology system. And i am really following on from this Ultima Online video as it does seem in the hands of players, concepts can really be blown out of proportion and i do think that players as a whole would massacre Verra. I think that there is a limit to what we can ask of players to reasonably do in terms of "preserving" the node ecology and I think I would like most of that taken out of player power.

    On a plus though - everything looks great. I think the sounds are very nearly there - the Axe chopping i think is a bit too short/quiet. I would want it to be a bit deeper, the sound drags a bit longer on each strike with that echo. New World really nailed it I think their sound on the mining/chopping was better personally, however I like the way the rocks break apart.

    The trees I agree overall good! It does seem a bit odd how the branches react when it hits the floor. I feel like it would kind of thrust the branches down into the ground, breaking some like some others have suggested.

    If we are harvesting a flower carefully, should we be absolutely destroying it? Haha. Maybe we could turn down the "harvest" animations for Flora harvesting.

    --

    Other things not quite related we saw on the video:

    - The Fauna overall is just amazing. I also noticed that going close to some trees actually made the birds sound louder. The ambient sound is amazing.

    - The snow and environment moving with the wind all look really good.

    - Sandal memes never get old.

    - The mounting/demounting and the rotation while riding mounts, still seems a little off to me. I think when you summon a mount, we need some sort of "materialising" when we're summoning it. At the moment it just appears there and is quite sudden! Maybe the phoenix "ashes" could be used as if it's being reborn.

    I think when stationary and turning, rather than allow the player to move very quickly, it might look a little smoother to allow the turning to go SLIGHTLY slower, to allow the animation to actually show the turn, i.e. if you do a 180-degree turn. I don't know how other people feel about this but the general running and strafing look good and I feel this is a small change which could help.

    I am nitpicking here, however I feel that despite the caveat of "it's alpha" - you bring up these things to give you time to work on it; but overall great job really the game looks stunning and we're eager to see more of the gameplay elements come alive and you are definitely showing what we have to look forward to.
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