Combat is moving in the wrong direction

Marzzo

1. Every weapon in the game is hitting way too fast. One-handed weapons and Two-handed weapons alike are just too twitchy. Basic attack hits should leave small nuancaed windows between them to weave in abilities in a natural flowing manner. Currently, it's simply way too fast. Hits should be impactful, they should have weight. Right now, it looks like the characters are swinging weightless lightsabers.

2. There are too many spell effects. Especially on basic attacks. Basic attacks should be just that, basic. Relax with the spell effects.

Other than that, amazing job keep it up.

Azherae

I believe the point is to explicitly make players commit to the third and possibly even fourth swing of their basic attacks, though, in order to get procs.

I personally don't want to see the return of That Unmentioned Implementation From Alpha-1 in order to make it possible to use abilities mid-combo to maintain your procs, but the current player movement speeds will not match up in PvP if they don't attack at the rate they're doing now. Similarly, some of that flashiness is necessary so that players can tell which thing is happening, perhaps even 'which attack of your basic attack string is about to happen' so they can react.

These things may not be highly appealing visually, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks.

(my opinion, if relevant, is that I'm neutral to it for my personal play but wouldn't want it to change, knowing the difficulty that people learning nuanced games have with recognizing visual data of this type)

Taleof2Cities

Combat is moving in the wrong direction …

… other than that amazing job keep it up!

Arya_Yeshe

It's going well by me, the sense of speed and impact are on point

The effects speed, color, design, light, timing are really nice... but they are a bit fat for me, specially those sparks

Ripteye

I agree with #2 for sure, IDK about #1 but it could be accurate would need to play to get a feel for it to give an honest response. But yes the spell effects need a MAJOR tone down in my opinion.

Solmyr

I always harp on this, but Ashes is a game with plans for Planetside-style PvP battles at an enormous scale. It absolutely needs to tone down its VFX to be even remotely playable, let alone visually appealing in those scenarios. 100% agreed on that point, it can't be emphasized enough.

As for the tempo/animations themselves, it obviously needs some work, but I don't think it's flawed at a fundamental level. A lot could be fixed by reducing the emphasis on overbloomed plasma streaks in favor of more dynamic and distinct animations - stuff like directional hit reacts, a more extensive state machine, and some tweaks/polish for both timing and animation.

Liniker

the title for this post is hilarious "combat is moving in the wrong direction" - tldr: need some VFX and attack speed tweaks everything else looks great!

lol

Ace1234

Disagree- I like the fast paced nature and visual cues, gameplay>visuals for me.

Noaani

Weapon attack speed is something best left done to combat balance passes. As such, I wouldnt really pay too much attention to it until beta (expect rudimentary balancing for alpha 2).

As for combat visuals, again it is something to be tweaked - but it is just tweaks that are needed.

That said, both things are worth pointing out and discussing. I just wouldnt say that the two of these constitute combat heading in the wrong direction.

Solvryn

Been playing a lot of Valheim lately, it’s a good pace. Ashes could do well at that pace.

Myosotys

Marzzo wrote: »

1. Every weapon in the game is hitting way too fast. One-handed weapons and Two-handed weapons alike are just too twitchy. Basic attack hits should leave small nuancaed windows between them to weave in abilities in a natural flowing manner. Currently, it's simply way too fast. Hits should be impactful, they should have weight. Right now, it looks like the characters are swinging weightless lightsabers.

2. There are too many spell effects. Especially on basic attacks. Basic attacks should be just that, basic. Relax with the spell effects.

Other than that, amazing job keep it up.

Movements are fast and Jerky like Bless Online and BDO.... I hope the devs will add a few frames per second to smooth the movements and reduce the speed on heavy weapons.

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

Been playing a lot of Valheim lately, it’s a good pace. Ashes could do well at that pace.

I've been doing the same, but imo its combat is waaaay too slow for an mmo.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Been playing a lot of Valheim lately, it’s a good pace. Ashes could do well at that pace.

I've been doing the same, but imo its combat is waaaay too slow for an mmo.

It’s combat in regards to its perfect block, block fatigue, and stats are what makes it shine.

It’s slow but you increase the complexity (Ashes) you’d have a great system with strategy and tactics required.

Garrtok

I agree to OP. The effects look awful in this intensity, especially the basic weapon swings. Also it's way way too fast. Hope they fix this, they get this feedback for month now.

Austrinaut

Lot of good discussion here, here's my two bits: I really like the way they're going with combat. It's fast paced and messy like REAL combat. The visual effects are bright and loud so you know something happened. I don't want to look up and see my health bar is empty and there's been a rogue behind me for five seconds stabbing me and I didn't notice.

It does make sense that they'd get toned down for sieges though. I'm sure they'll have an optimization algorithm to cut down lag for that.

Hjalmberi

Totally agree with op. Especially about the skill effects. Wrote about that after the first look on the current melee class appearing. Last videos with just group of four shows that combat is "super nova" type. What will we see in gvg? Or the siege? Or raid? Just rainbow on the screen? Also asian mmo type of effects looks strange with the generally european visual style of the game.
About the attack speed. The game looks like a clicker right now. Just press lmb as fast as possible and everything will be ok?

RazThemun

The only real beef I have about your characters combat: I wish 3/4 of your abilities did not do big lighting effects. I believe major abilities should have some pop! A big heal coming in , a majorly important shield mechanic, a kill shot, a form of rapid fire, etc. Just flinging arrows and swinging your sword should not be as flashy.... now with that being said... they might have it very flashy now so it is obvious visually that those skills are in fact working. If everything is over exaggerated now there is no chance in missing that an ability did not go off.

Marzzo

Austrinaut wrote: »

Lot of good discussion here, here's my two bits: I really like the way they're going with combat. It's fast paced and messy like REAL combat. The visual effects are bright and loud so you know something happened. I don't want to look up and see my health bar is empty and there's been a rogue behind me for five seconds stabbing me and I didn't notice.

It does make sense that they'd get toned down for sieges though. I'm sure they'll have an optimization algorithm to cut down lag for that.

The problem is that Two-Handed Greatswords literally hit faster than any man could swing a long sword. It simply looks jerky, wonky and messy. 1 hit per second is good enough when swinging a massive sword. Currently we are at 3-4 swings per seconds or something crazy.

novercalis

agree on visuals - I dont like it. it shouldnt be the default or base or even part of it. the excuse that we can turn it off isnt a valid reason. Look at how SMITE does their combat and spell fx - you can understand every ability used in a chaotic 5v5 team fight.

Yulivee

I really love this project... but Iam so scared about the excessive use of flashy effects.
In the streams when 4 or 5 characters (with very limited abilities) are fighting together there are times when you cannot see a single pixel of a mob anymore.
Yes, it looks cool and everything but thats not helping... a game that looks good in "cool 1vs1 pvp video on youtube" and "another super cool trailer" is not what should be aimed for here.
I cannot even imagine what a fight with 10, 20, 50! people would look like. Gameplay should come first. Then nothing for a long time. Then good looks.

Liniker

was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO



and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

Aniion

Liniker wrote: »

was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO



and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

This is exactly what I'm talking about. BDO has almost unanimously amazing combat. The vfx goes INSANE. The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations. The problem with Ashes combat isn't too much. If they subtracted 40% of the lights and slowed it down, the combat would still be unimpressive.

From my perspective, they need to lean more into the fantasy aspect. We know it'll never be like any of the eastern MMOs. The Archeage 2 trailer already looks more impressive in terms of combat. What Ashes needs is better animations, better lights, and better movement. All things that can and possibly will be improved in time.

Everyone knows what games have good/fun combat. I'm sure the Ashes devs see the same issues in their combat, from the skill light effects appearing 2D when the camera pans, not fully utilizing UE5 Lumen tech, characters appearing very static and not doing fantasy-esque animations (BDO/BnS/Guild Wars).

The final result will surely align with Stevens vision for the game. If I see that and am still disappointed then I'll just have to live with Stevens idea of good combat not being mine. And that's fine too.

Solvryn

Aniion wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO



and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

This is exactly what I'm talking about. BDO has almost unanimously amazing combat. The vfx goes INSANE. The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations. The problem with Ashes combat isn't too much. If they subtracted 40% of the lights and slowed it down, the combat would still be unimpressive.

From my perspective, they need to lean more into the fantasy aspect. We know it'll never be like any of the eastern MMOs. The Archeage 2 trailer already looks more impressive in terms of combat. What Ashes needs is better animations, better lights, and better movement. All things that can and possibly will be improved in time.

Everyone knows what games have good/fun combat. I'm sure the Ashes devs see the same issues in their combat, from the skill light effects appearing 2D when the camera pans, not fully utilizing UE5 Lumen tech, characters appearing very static and not doing fantasy-esque animations (BDO/BnS/Guild Wars).

The final result will surely align with Stevens vision for the game. If I see that and am still disappointed then I'll just have to live with Stevens idea of good combat not being mine. And that's fine too.

Disagree, BDO looks like shit. It’s a gaudy light show.

I’d like them to just actually mocap their animations with a Martial arts professionals and add simple and clean animations.

Visual Data saturation =\= good combat

Noaani

Solvryn wrote: »

Aniion wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO



and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

This is exactly what I'm talking about. BDO has almost unanimously amazing combat. The vfx goes INSANE. The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations. The problem with Ashes combat isn't too much. If they subtracted 40% of the lights and slowed it down, the combat would still be unimpressive.

From my perspective, they need to lean more into the fantasy aspect. We know it'll never be like any of the eastern MMOs. The Archeage 2 trailer already looks more impressive in terms of combat. What Ashes needs is better animations, better lights, and better movement. All things that can and possibly will be improved in time.

Everyone knows what games have good/fun combat. I'm sure the Ashes devs see the same issues in their combat, from the skill light effects appearing 2D when the camera pans, not fully utilizing UE5 Lumen tech, characters appearing very static and not doing fantasy-esque animations (BDO/BnS/Guild Wars).

The final result will surely align with Stevens vision for the game. If I see that and am still disappointed then I'll just have to live with Stevens idea of good combat not being mine. And that's fine too.

Disagree, BDO looks like shit. It’s a gaudy light show.

I’d like them to just actually mocap their animations with a Martial arts professionals and add simple and clean animations.

Visual Data saturation =\= good combat

100% agree.

Some people are all about the flash, some people are all about the substance.

I'm all about substance.

Myosotys

Aniion wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO



and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

This is exactly what I'm talking about. BDO has almost unanimously amazing combat. The vfx goes INSANE. The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations. The problem with Ashes combat isn't too much. If they subtracted 40% of the lights and slowed it down, the combat would still be unimpressive.

From my perspective, they need to lean more into the fantasy aspect. We know it'll never be like any of the eastern MMOs. The Archeage 2 trailer already looks more impressive in terms of combat. What Ashes needs is better animations, better lights, and better movement. All things that can and possibly will be improved in time.

Everyone knows what games have good/fun combat. I'm sure the Ashes devs see the same issues in their combat, from the skill light effects appearing 2D when the camera pans, not fully utilizing UE5 Lumen tech, characters appearing very static and not doing fantasy-esque animations (BDO/BnS/Guild Wars).

The final result will surely align with Stevens vision for the game. If I see that and am still disappointed then I'll just have to live with Stevens idea of good combat not being mine. And that's fine too.

BDO combats look like Street Fighter on Super Nintendo...

Aniion

Glad I said almost unanimous then lmao but BDO definitely has substance in its combat as that has been one of the main reasons it has been able to live this long. The substance may not be everyone's cup of tea though and that's fine. I couldn't get past the insane p2w for long personally.

Noaani

Aniion wrote: »

Glad I said almost unanimous then lmao but BDO definitely has substance in its combat as that has been one of the main reasons it has been able to live this long. The substance may not be everyone's cup of tea though and that's fine. I couldn't get past the insane p2w for long personally.

I would go as far as to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously panned as being horrible, to be honest.

Zeitlos

I agree with the combat being too flashy, not just the light show, but also some character animations as well. The mage fireball jump spin is a good example of the excessive character animation in my opinion.

Solvryn

Noaani wrote: »

Aniion wrote: »

Glad I said almost unanimous then lmao but BDO definitely has substance in its combat as that has been one of the main reasons it has been able to live this long. The substance may not be everyone's cup of tea though and that's fine. I couldn't get past the insane p2w for long personally.

I would go as far as to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously panned as being horrible, to be honest.

BDO looks like bad anime.

Dezmerizing

Hmm... It is almost as if people have different ideas of what good combat looks like. c:

I personally also loved BDO, but was driven away by the P2W aspects and Guild monopoly.

Vindictus is another Korean game that I enjoyed a lot.

Flashy, unreal and fast animations is really awesome, imo, because it makes the game feel like a high-fantasy game. I let my players enjoy the rule of cool when i play D&D, and I enjoy the rule of cool in games.

In my personal opinion, the animations are more important than the spell effects. I love detailed, mobile and almost movie effect-like animations and subtle effects with that, only having the real flashy stuff coming up when the most powerful stuff is being used. A game that balances this well is GW2 (imo). BDO has superior animations, but I agree the effects are a bit too flashy. WoW has gotten better over the years, but it still feels... Stiff and boring to me.

Imo, Ashes is doing pretty well, but I am holding my judgement until we get to see more! c:

apparat

Way too flashy for me. If I can tone it down for myself, then I don't care, but this way it is both physically disturbing for my eyes and I do not like this goofy anime style at all. It is inconsistent with the realistic UE5 aesthetics. Kinda feels like Gandalf shining a Hello Kitty rainbow flashlight at the nazguls.