Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. You really wanna get into another loop with Noaani when your ability to convey your points (no matter how good they are) is not generally sufficient to involve that repetition? I would like to avoid that since this thread might actually be somewhat useful. I will literally argue with Noaani for you if you want, just to prevent this (which will turn into me arguing with you, obviously, since you don't communicate nuance terribly well). You're going to end up 'arguing' with one of us, because neither of us is generally willing to just let misinformation go uncorrected, and you speak in a way that misinforms other people. Seriously, I will literally argue with Noaani for you just because Noaani probably does not have/remember enough BDO experience to understand any underlying truth of your points or claims. You are free to if you want, but if he starts saying ever quest movement matters more than a game that is based on movement and the different skills putting you out of place to win or lose fights isn't positioning i have a issue with claims like that. Including saying tab target mmorpgs are more button presses than bdo in terms of combat with movement, cancels, quick skills you can use in-between others is also absurd.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. You really wanna get into another loop with Noaani when your ability to convey your points (no matter how good they are) is not generally sufficient to involve that repetition? I would like to avoid that since this thread might actually be somewhat useful. I will literally argue with Noaani for you if you want, just to prevent this (which will turn into me arguing with you, obviously, since you don't communicate nuance terribly well). You're going to end up 'arguing' with one of us, because neither of us is generally willing to just let misinformation go uncorrected, and you speak in a way that misinforms other people. Seriously, I will literally argue with Noaani for you just because Noaani probably does not have/remember enough BDO experience to understand any underlying truth of your points or claims.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false.
Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. You really wanna get into another loop with Noaani when your ability to convey your points (no matter how good they are) is not generally sufficient to involve that repetition? I would like to avoid that since this thread might actually be somewhat useful. I will literally argue with Noaani for you if you want, just to prevent this (which will turn into me arguing with you, obviously, since you don't communicate nuance terribly well). You're going to end up 'arguing' with one of us, because neither of us is generally willing to just let misinformation go uncorrected, and you speak in a way that misinforms other people. Seriously, I will literally argue with Noaani for you just because Noaani probably does not have/remember enough BDO experience to understand any underlying truth of your points or claims. You are free to if you want, but if he starts saying ever quest movement matters more than a game that is based on movement and the different skills putting you out of place to win or lose fights isn't positioning i have a issue with claims like that. Including saying tab target mmorpgs are more button presses than bdo in terms of combat with movement, cancels, quick skills you can use in-between others is also absurd. Ok if that's your stance it sounds like your argument would end up being with me after all. But I'm not in the mood I think, so I'll just write off the thread. Have 'fun'.
Mag7spy wrote: » BDO has better animations than any mmorpg out there. Trying to say vfx is the same thing as animation of models of their rigs literally doesn't make sense. VFX being too flashy is one thing, same way animations and how they flow together is another.
Azherae wrote: » Bobsyns wrote: » Azherae wrote: » ***These things may not be highly appealing visually***, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks. What do you need in order to play a computer game? You need Eyes and a Monitor so you look at all times on your Screen. Effects need to be done in a way to give you the information without being annoying to look at and be visually appealing. Since you are using your Eyes to look at them at all times. Too flashy effects also shift the focus from the actual gameplay while blinding you and that's pretty annoying for a human's brain. If it's for a short video to watch - Flashy effects are great because you only get to look at them for short period of time. But if flashy effects are a part of a Game that's is probably expected to be played more than 30 minutes a session, there is some serious negatives that flashy effects bring. Sorry, I should have clarified that I trust Intrepid to give us the slider that they talked about, to lower these effects. The flashiness is not the main thing I was referring to, the speed and 'size' of the attacks is. The flash parts can be toned down. If you look at BDO or Tera or Throne and Liberty combat, they're quite fast, and they have quite a bit of flash, depending, but the speeds and sizes of the attacks are tuned to be visually accessible. I agree with you completely that if the flashing is making anything you need visually inaccessible, it's bad, but that doesn't have anything really to do with the 'speed' or strikes or the 'weightless' feeling that comes when a big weapon is swung in 15 frames (1/4 second).
Bobsyns wrote: » Azherae wrote: » ***These things may not be highly appealing visually***, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks. What do you need in order to play a computer game? You need Eyes and a Monitor so you look at all times on your Screen. Effects need to be done in a way to give you the information without being annoying to look at and be visually appealing. Since you are using your Eyes to look at them at all times. Too flashy effects also shift the focus from the actual gameplay while blinding you and that's pretty annoying for a human's brain. If it's for a short video to watch - Flashy effects are great because you only get to look at them for short period of time. But if flashy effects are a part of a Game that's is probably expected to be played more than 30 minutes a session, there is some serious negatives that flashy effects bring.
Azherae wrote: » ***These things may not be highly appealing visually***, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks.
Aniion wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Bobsyns wrote: » Azherae wrote: » ***These things may not be highly appealing visually***, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks. What do you need in order to play a computer game? You need Eyes and a Monitor so you look at all times on your Screen. Effects need to be done in a way to give you the information without being annoying to look at and be visually appealing. Since you are using your Eyes to look at them at all times. Too flashy effects also shift the focus from the actual gameplay while blinding you and that's pretty annoying for a human's brain. If it's for a short video to watch - Flashy effects are great because you only get to look at them for short period of time. But if flashy effects are a part of a Game that's is probably expected to be played more than 30 minutes a session, there is some serious negatives that flashy effects bring. Sorry, I should have clarified that I trust Intrepid to give us the slider that they talked about, to lower these effects. The flashiness is not the main thing I was referring to, the speed and 'size' of the attacks is. The flash parts can be toned down. If you look at BDO or Tera or Throne and Liberty combat, they're quite fast, and they have quite a bit of flash, depending, but the speeds and sizes of the attacks are tuned to be visually accessible. I agree with you completely that if the flashing is making anything you need visually inaccessible, it's bad, but that doesn't have anything really to do with the 'speed' or strikes or the 'weightless' feeling that comes when a big weapon is swung in 15 frames (1/4 second). I also agree that it feels like the hits have little weight. Even watching Rohan combat and noticing when a person crit, it feels heavy. There should be more of a momentary pause when an attack hits, with accompanies sound and VFX that actually make it impactful. This is another thing I think BDO does really well. Every hit feels impactful. Whether you're a fast attacker or slow attacker, whether you're killing a lowlevel mob in one shot or taking 10 minutes to kill a mini-boss, all hits should feel more impactful. That's a combination of sound, visual hit-reg, character animation, etc. Right now it feels more like the character is attacking, and the mob is getting hit, and those two are a bit too independent. But I can definitely notice the improvement in Cleric basic attacks now compared to the first showcase. Just need it to be a lot more impactful.
Dygz wrote: » BDO combat is way too fast for an MMORPG. Feels more like a Fighter than an RPG.
Aniion wrote: » The are sources from a popular mmo forum in the post you're quoting? Idk if you didn't catch that but it was there when you replied to me. I'm not sure what other sources you want but I have a feeling you're going to say one of the most populated MMO forums online isn't a good enough place to garner general audience feedback
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.
Marzzo wrote: » Austrinaut wrote: » Lot of good discussion here, here's my two bits: I really like the way they're going with combat. It's fast paced and messy like REAL combat. The visual effects are bright and loud so you know something happened. I don't want to look up and see my health bar is empty and there's been a rogue behind me for five seconds stabbing me and I didn't notice. It does make sense that they'd get toned down for sieges though. I'm sure they'll have an optimization algorithm to cut down lag for that. The problem is that Two-Handed Greatswords literally hit faster than any man could swing a long sword. It simply looks jerky, wonky and messy. 1 hit per second is good enough when swinging a massive sword. Currently we are at 3-4 swings per seconds or something crazy.
Austrinaut wrote: » Lot of good discussion here, here's my two bits: I really like the way they're going with combat. It's fast paced and messy like REAL combat. The visual effects are bright and loud so you know something happened. I don't want to look up and see my health bar is empty and there's been a rogue behind me for five seconds stabbing me and I didn't notice. It does make sense that they'd get toned down for sieges though. I'm sure they'll have an optimization algorithm to cut down lag for that.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Aniion wrote: » Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao. If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources. Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources. Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks. This is false. Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about. I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about. As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter. Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof. Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay. The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed. Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular. Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games. Why would we? Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved. You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played. You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference. ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning. You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.
Azherae wrote: » But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
