Combat is moving in the wrong direction

1. Every weapon in the game is hitting way too fast. One-handed weapons and Two-handed weapons alike are just too twitchy. Basic attack hits should leave small nuancaed windows between them to weave in abilities in a natural flowing manner. Currently, it's simply way too fast. Hits should be impactful, they should have weight. Right now, it looks like the characters are swinging weightless lightsabers.

2. There are too many spell effects. Especially on basic attacks. Basic attacks should be just that, basic. Relax with the spell effects.

Other than that, amazing job keep it up.

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Aniion

Liniker wrote: »

was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO

and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

This is exactly what I'm talking about. BDO has almost unanimously amazing combat. The vfx goes INSANE. The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations. The problem with Ashes combat isn't too much. If they subtracted 40% of the lights and slowed it down, the combat would still be unimpressive.

From my perspective, they need to lean more into the fantasy aspect. We know it'll never be like any of the eastern MMOs. The Archeage 2 trailer already looks more impressive in terms of combat. What Ashes needs is better animations, better lights, and better movement. All things that can and possibly will be improved in time.

Everyone knows what games have good/fun combat. I'm sure the Ashes devs see the same issues in their combat, from the skill light effects appearing 2D when the camera pans, not fully utilizing UE5 Lumen tech, characters appearing very static and not doing fantasy-esque animations (BDO/BnS/Guild Wars).

The final result will surely align with Stevens vision for the game. If I see that and am still disappointed then I'll just have to live with Stevens idea of good combat not being mine. And that's fine too.

Solvryn

Aniion wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO

and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

This is exactly what I'm talking about. BDO has almost unanimously amazing combat. The vfx goes INSANE. The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations. The problem with Ashes combat isn't too much. If they subtracted 40% of the lights and slowed it down, the combat would still be unimpressive.

From my perspective, they need to lean more into the fantasy aspect. We know it'll never be like any of the eastern MMOs. The Archeage 2 trailer already looks more impressive in terms of combat. What Ashes needs is better animations, better lights, and better movement. All things that can and possibly will be improved in time.

Everyone knows what games have good/fun combat. I'm sure the Ashes devs see the same issues in their combat, from the skill light effects appearing 2D when the camera pans, not fully utilizing UE5 Lumen tech, characters appearing very static and not doing fantasy-esque animations (BDO/BnS/Guild Wars).

The final result will surely align with Stevens vision for the game. If I see that and am still disappointed then I'll just have to live with Stevens idea of good combat not being mine. And that's fine too.

Disagree, BDO looks like shit. It’s a gaudy light show.

I’d like them to just actually mocap their animations with a Martial arts professionals and add simple and clean animations.

Visual Data saturation =\= good combat

Noaani

Solvryn wrote: »

Aniion wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO

and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

This is exactly what I'm talking about. BDO has almost unanimously amazing combat. The vfx goes INSANE. The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations. The problem with Ashes combat isn't too much. If they subtracted 40% of the lights and slowed it down, the combat would still be unimpressive.

From my perspective, they need to lean more into the fantasy aspect. We know it'll never be like any of the eastern MMOs. The Archeage 2 trailer already looks more impressive in terms of combat. What Ashes needs is better animations, better lights, and better movement. All things that can and possibly will be improved in time.

Everyone knows what games have good/fun combat. I'm sure the Ashes devs see the same issues in their combat, from the skill light effects appearing 2D when the camera pans, not fully utilizing UE5 Lumen tech, characters appearing very static and not doing fantasy-esque animations (BDO/BnS/Guild Wars).

The final result will surely align with Stevens vision for the game. If I see that and am still disappointed then I'll just have to live with Stevens idea of good combat not being mine. And that's fine too.

Disagree, BDO looks like shit. It’s a gaudy light show.

I’d like them to just actually mocap their animations with a Martial arts professionals and add simple and clean animations.

Visual Data saturation =\= good combat

100% agree.

Some people are all about the flash, some people are all about the substance.

I'm all about substance.

Myosotys

Aniion wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO

and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

This is exactly what I'm talking about. BDO has almost unanimously amazing combat. The vfx goes INSANE. The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations. The problem with Ashes combat isn't too much. If they subtracted 40% of the lights and slowed it down, the combat would still be unimpressive.

From my perspective, they need to lean more into the fantasy aspect. We know it'll never be like any of the eastern MMOs. The Archeage 2 trailer already looks more impressive in terms of combat. What Ashes needs is better animations, better lights, and better movement. All things that can and possibly will be improved in time.

Everyone knows what games have good/fun combat. I'm sure the Ashes devs see the same issues in their combat, from the skill light effects appearing 2D when the camera pans, not fully utilizing UE5 Lumen tech, characters appearing very static and not doing fantasy-esque animations (BDO/BnS/Guild Wars).

The final result will surely align with Stevens vision for the game. If I see that and am still disappointed then I'll just have to live with Stevens idea of good combat not being mine. And that's fine too.

BDO combats look like Street Fighter on Super Nintendo...

Aniion

Glad I said almost unanimous then lmao but BDO definitely has substance in its combat as that has been one of the main reasons it has been able to live this long. The substance may not be everyone's cup of tea though and that's fine. I couldn't get past the insane p2w for long personally.

Noaani

Aniion wrote: »

Glad I said almost unanimous then lmao but BDO definitely has substance in its combat as that has been one of the main reasons it has been able to live this long. The substance may not be everyone's cup of tea though and that's fine. I couldn't get past the insane p2w for long personally.

I would go as far as to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously panned as being horrible, to be honest.

Zeitlos

I agree with the combat being too flashy, not just the light show, but also some character animations as well. The mage fireball jump spin is a good example of the excessive character animation in my opinion.

Solvryn

Noaani wrote: »

Aniion wrote: »

Glad I said almost unanimous then lmao but BDO definitely has substance in its combat as that has been one of the main reasons it has been able to live this long. The substance may not be everyone's cup of tea though and that's fine. I couldn't get past the insane p2w for long personally.

I would go as far as to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously panned as being horrible, to be honest.

BDO looks like bad anime.

Dezemi

Hmm... It is almost as if people have different ideas of what good combat looks like. c:

I personally also loved BDO, but was driven away by the P2W aspects and Guild monopoly.

Vindictus is another Korean game that I enjoyed a lot.

Flashy, unreal and fast animations is really awesome, imo, because it makes the game feel like a high-fantasy game. I let my players enjoy the rule of cool when i play D&D, and I enjoy the rule of cool in games.

In my personal opinion, the animations are more important than the spell effects. I love detailed, mobile and almost movie effect-like animations and subtle effects with that, only having the real flashy stuff coming up when the most powerful stuff is being used. A game that balances this well is GW2 (imo). BDO has superior animations, but I agree the effects are a bit too flashy. WoW has gotten better over the years, but it still feels... Stiff and boring to me.

Imo, Ashes is doing pretty well, but I am holding my judgement until we get to see more! c:

apparat

Way too flashy for me. If I can tone it down for myself, then I don't care, but this way it is both physically disturbing for my eyes and I do not like this goofy anime style at all. It is inconsistent with the realistic UE5 aesthetics. Kinda feels like Gandalf shining a Hello Kitty rainbow flashlight at the nazguls.

Aniion

Noaani wrote: »

Aniion wrote: »

Glad I said almost unanimous then lmao but BDO definitely has substance in its combat as that has been one of the main reasons it has been able to live this long. The substance may not be everyone's cup of tea though and that's fine. I couldn't get past the insane p2w for long personally.

I would go as far as to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously panned as being horrible, to be honest.

That's really weird considering almost every forum post discussing MMO Combat (that's not pure tab) either points to GW2 or BDO & GW2.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/vag6ze/what_mmorpg_has_the_best_combat_and_why_is_it/

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/rh94g1/what_mmo_has_the_best_combat_system_in_your/

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/z5egmo/wish_there_were_more_games_similar_to_bdos_combat/

Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.

Yulivee

Extensive and flashy animations are cool (when made well) but Ashes is a game where cooperation is one of THE key elements.
When your game looks stunning but you cannot see whats going on anymore as soon as more than 5 people are fighting at a location this only results in everyone staring at their numbers and bars in the UserInterface and noone sees the world anymore. That cannot be the goal here.

Noaani

Aniion wrote: »

Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.

If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

Bobsyns

Azherae wrote: »

***These things may not be highly appealing visually***, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks.

What do you need in order to play a computer game?
You need Eyes and a Monitor so you look at all times on your Screen.
Effects need to be done in a way to give you the information without being annoying to look at and be visually appealing. Since you are using your Eyes to look at them at all times.
Too flashy effects also shift the focus from the actual gameplay while blinding you and that's pretty annoying for a human's brain.
If it's for a short video to watch - Flashy effects are great because you only get to look at them for short period of time. But if flashy effects are a part of a Game that's is probably expected to be played more than 30 minutes a session, there is some serious negatives that flashy effects bring.

Azherae

Bobsyns wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

***These things may not be highly appealing visually***, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks.

What do you need in order to play a computer game?
You need Eyes and a Monitor so you look at all times on your Screen.
Effects need to be done in a way to give you the information without being annoying to look at and be visually appealing. Since you are using your Eyes to look at them at all times.
Too flashy effects also shift the focus from the actual gameplay while blinding you and that's pretty annoying for a human's brain.
If it's for a short video to watch - Flashy effects are great because you only get to look at them for short period of time. But if flashy effects are a part of a Game that's is probably expected to be played more than 30 minutes a session, there is some serious negatives that flashy effects bring.

Sorry, I should have clarified that I trust Intrepid to give us the slider that they talked about, to lower these effects.

The flashiness is not the main thing I was referring to, the speed and 'size' of the attacks is. The flash parts can be toned down.

If you look at BDO or Tera or Throne and Liberty combat, they're quite fast, and they have quite a bit of flash, depending, but the speeds and sizes of the attacks are tuned to be visually accessible.

I agree with you completely that if the flashing is making anything you need visually inaccessible, it's bad, but that doesn't have anything really to do with the 'speed' or strikes or the 'weightless' feeling that comes when a big weapon is swung in 15 frames (1/4 second).

Mag7spy

Solvryn wrote: »

Aniion wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO

and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

This is exactly what I'm talking about. BDO has almost unanimously amazing combat. The vfx goes INSANE. The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations. The problem with Ashes combat isn't too much. If they subtracted 40% of the lights and slowed it down, the combat would still be unimpressive.

From my perspective, they need to lean more into the fantasy aspect. We know it'll never be like any of the eastern MMOs. The Archeage 2 trailer already looks more impressive in terms of combat. What Ashes needs is better animations, better lights, and better movement. All things that can and possibly will be improved in time.

Everyone knows what games have good/fun combat. I'm sure the Ashes devs see the same issues in their combat, from the skill light effects appearing 2D when the camera pans, not fully utilizing UE5 Lumen tech, characters appearing very static and not doing fantasy-esque animations (BDO/BnS/Guild Wars).

The final result will surely align with Stevens vision for the game. If I see that and am still disappointed then I'll just have to live with Stevens idea of good combat not being mine. And that's fine too.

Disagree, BDO looks like shit. It’s a gaudy light show.

I’d like them to just actually mocap their animations with a Martial arts professionals and add simple and clean animations.

Visual Data saturation =\= good combat

I feel liek you are not fully reading his post

The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations.

BDO has better animations than any mmorpg out there. Trying to say vfx is the same thing as animation of models of their rigs literally doesn't make sense.

VFX being too flashy is one thing, same way animations and how they flow together is another.

Mag7spy

Most people that dislike BDO combat have not really played it on more than a surface level. There are reasons to dislike it, but the reason brought forth by people show they have not really played it. First red flag is them talking animation the VFX that everyone plays on potato mode and doesn't see them to begin with.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Aniion wrote: »

Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.

If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

This is false.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Aniion wrote: »

Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.

If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

This is false.

You really wanna get into another loop with Noaani when your ability to convey your points (no matter how good they are) is not generally sufficient to involve that repetition?

I would like to avoid that since this thread might actually be somewhat useful. I will literally argue with Noaani for you if you want, just to prevent this (which will turn into me arguing with you, obviously, since you don't communicate nuance terribly well).

You're going to end up 'arguing' with one of us, because neither of us is generally willing to just let misinformation go uncorrected, and you speak in a way that misinforms other people.

Seriously, I will literally argue with Noaani for you just because Noaani probably does not have/remember enough BDO experience to understand any underlying truth of your points or claims.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Aniion wrote: »

Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.

If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

This is false.

You really wanna get into another loop with Noaani when your ability to convey your points (no matter how good they are) is not generally sufficient to involve that repetition?

I would like to avoid that since this thread might actually be somewhat useful. I will literally argue with Noaani for you if you want, just to prevent this (which will turn into me arguing with you, obviously, since you don't communicate nuance terribly well).

You're going to end up 'arguing' with one of us, because neither of us is generally willing to just let misinformation go uncorrected, and you speak in a way that misinforms other people.

Seriously, I will literally argue with Noaani for you just because Noaani probably does not have/remember enough BDO experience to understand any underlying truth of your points or claims.

You are free to if you want, but if he starts saying ever quest movement matters more than a game that is based on movement and the different skills putting you out of place to win or lose fights isn't positioning i have a issue with claims like that. Including saying tab target mmorpgs are more button presses than bdo in terms of combat with movement, cancels, quick skills you can use in-between others is also absurd.

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