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Combat is moving in the wrong direction

2456

Comments

  • AniionAniion Member, Alpha Two
    edited April 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »
    Glad I said almost unanimous then lmao but BDO definitely has substance in its combat as that has been one of the main reasons it has been able to live this long. The substance may not be everyone's cup of tea though and that's fine. I couldn't get past the insane p2w for long personally.

    I would go as far as to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously panned as being horrible, to be honest.

    That's really weird considering almost every forum post discussing MMO Combat (that's not pure tab) either points to GW2 or BDO & GW2.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/vag6ze/what_mmorpg_has_the_best_combat_and_why_is_it/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/rh94g1/what_mmo_has_the_best_combat_system_in_your/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/z5egmo/wish_there_were_more_games_similar_to_bdos_combat/

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
  • Extensive and flashy animations are cool (when made well) but Ashes is a game where cooperation is one of THE key elements.
    When your game looks stunning but you cannot see whats going on anymore as soon as more than 5 people are fighting at a location this only results in everyone staring at their numbers and bars in the UserInterface and noone sees the world anymore. That cannot be the goal here.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.
  • BobsynsBobsyns Member
    edited April 2023
    Azherae wrote: »

    ***These things may not be highly appealing visually***, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks.

    What do you need in order to play a computer game?
    You need Eyes and a Monitor so you look at all times on your Screen.
    Effects need to be done in a way to give you the information without being annoying to look at and be visually appealing. Since you are using your Eyes to look at them at all times.
    Too flashy effects also shift the focus from the actual gameplay while blinding you and that's pretty annoying for a human's brain.
    If it's for a short video to watch - Flashy effects are great because you only get to look at them for short period of time. But if flashy effects are a part of a Game that's is probably expected to be played more than 30 minutes a session, there is some serious negatives that flashy effects bring.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Bobsyns wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »

    ***These things may not be highly appealing visually***, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks.

    What do you need in order to play a computer game?
    You need Eyes and a Monitor so you look at all times on your Screen.
    Effects need to be done in a way to give you the information without being annoying to look at and be visually appealing. Since you are using your Eyes to look at them at all times.
    Too flashy effects also shift the focus from the actual gameplay while blinding you and that's pretty annoying for a human's brain.
    If it's for a short video to watch - Flashy effects are great because you only get to look at them for short period of time. But if flashy effects are a part of a Game that's is probably expected to be played more than 30 minutes a session, there is some serious negatives that flashy effects bring.

    Sorry, I should have clarified that I trust Intrepid to give us the slider that they talked about, to lower these effects.

    The flashiness is not the main thing I was referring to, the speed and 'size' of the attacks is. The flash parts can be toned down.

    If you look at BDO or Tera or Throne and Liberty combat, they're quite fast, and they have quite a bit of flash, depending, but the speeds and sizes of the attacks are tuned to be visually accessible.

    I agree with you completely that if the flashing is making anything you need visually inaccessible, it's bad, but that doesn't have anything really to do with the 'speed' or strikes or the 'weightless' feeling that comes when a big weapon is swung in 15 frames (1/4 second).
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    was watching this gameplay showcase for the new class in BDO - supposedly the best combat in an MMO

    tp4x1anijg2s.png

    and they say AoC has flash VFX ? surely sliders won't fix it like they fix BDO lol

    This is exactly what I'm talking about. BDO has almost unanimously amazing combat. The vfx goes INSANE. The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations. The problem with Ashes combat isn't too much. If they subtracted 40% of the lights and slowed it down, the combat would still be unimpressive.

    From my perspective, they need to lean more into the fantasy aspect. We know it'll never be like any of the eastern MMOs. The Archeage 2 trailer already looks more impressive in terms of combat. What Ashes needs is better animations, better lights, and better movement. All things that can and possibly will be improved in time.

    Everyone knows what games have good/fun combat. I'm sure the Ashes devs see the same issues in their combat, from the skill light effects appearing 2D when the camera pans, not fully utilizing UE5 Lumen tech, characters appearing very static and not doing fantasy-esque animations (BDO/BnS/Guild Wars).

    The final result will surely align with Stevens vision for the game. If I see that and am still disappointed then I'll just have to live with Stevens idea of good combat not being mine. And that's fine too.

    Disagree, BDO looks like shit. It’s a gaudy light show.

    I’d like them to just actually mocap their animations with a Martial arts professionals and add simple and clean animations.

    Visual Data saturation =\= good combat

    I feel liek you are not fully reading his post

    The animations are insane. Even basic attacks have a lot of cool animations.

    BDO has better animations than any mmorpg out there. Trying to say vfx is the same thing as animation of models of their rigs literally doesn't make sense.

    VFX being too flashy is one thing, same way animations and how they flow together is another.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Most people that dislike BDO combat have not really played it on more than a surface level. There are reasons to dislike it, but the reason brought forth by people show they have not really played it. First red flag is them talking animation the VFX that everyone plays on potato mode and doesn't see them to begin with.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.

    You really wanna get into another loop with Noaani when your ability to convey your points (no matter how good they are) is not generally sufficient to involve that repetition?

    I would like to avoid that since this thread might actually be somewhat useful. I will literally argue with Noaani for you if you want, just to prevent this (which will turn into me arguing with you, obviously, since you don't communicate nuance terribly well).

    You're going to end up 'arguing' with one of us, because neither of us is generally willing to just let misinformation go uncorrected, and you speak in a way that misinforms other people.

    Seriously, I will literally argue with Noaani for you just because Noaani probably does not have/remember enough BDO experience to understand any underlying truth of your points or claims.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.

    You really wanna get into another loop with Noaani when your ability to convey your points (no matter how good they are) is not generally sufficient to involve that repetition?

    I would like to avoid that since this thread might actually be somewhat useful. I will literally argue with Noaani for you if you want, just to prevent this (which will turn into me arguing with you, obviously, since you don't communicate nuance terribly well).

    You're going to end up 'arguing' with one of us, because neither of us is generally willing to just let misinformation go uncorrected, and you speak in a way that misinforms other people.

    Seriously, I will literally argue with Noaani for you just because Noaani probably does not have/remember enough BDO experience to understand any underlying truth of your points or claims.

    You are free to if you want, but if he starts saying ever quest movement matters more than a game that is based on movement and the different skills putting you out of place to win or lose fights isn't positioning i have a issue with claims like that. Including saying tab target mmorpgs are more button presses than bdo in terms of combat with movement, cancels, quick skills you can use in-between others is also absurd.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.

    You really wanna get into another loop with Noaani when your ability to convey your points (no matter how good they are) is not generally sufficient to involve that repetition?

    I would like to avoid that since this thread might actually be somewhat useful. I will literally argue with Noaani for you if you want, just to prevent this (which will turn into me arguing with you, obviously, since you don't communicate nuance terribly well).

    You're going to end up 'arguing' with one of us, because neither of us is generally willing to just let misinformation go uncorrected, and you speak in a way that misinforms other people.

    Seriously, I will literally argue with Noaani for you just because Noaani probably does not have/remember enough BDO experience to understand any underlying truth of your points or claims.

    You are free to if you want, but if he starts saying ever quest movement matters more than a game that is based on movement and the different skills putting you out of place to win or lose fights isn't positioning i have a issue with claims like that. Including saying tab target mmorpgs are more button presses than bdo in terms of combat with movement, cancels, quick skills you can use in-between others is also absurd.

    Ok if that's your stance it sounds like your argument would end up being with me after all.

    But I'm not in the mood I think, so I'll just write off the thread. Have 'fun'.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.

    You really wanna get into another loop with Noaani when your ability to convey your points (no matter how good they are) is not generally sufficient to involve that repetition?

    I would like to avoid that since this thread might actually be somewhat useful. I will literally argue with Noaani for you if you want, just to prevent this (which will turn into me arguing with you, obviously, since you don't communicate nuance terribly well).

    You're going to end up 'arguing' with one of us, because neither of us is generally willing to just let misinformation go uncorrected, and you speak in a way that misinforms other people.

    Seriously, I will literally argue with Noaani for you just because Noaani probably does not have/remember enough BDO experience to understand any underlying truth of your points or claims.

    You are free to if you want, but if he starts saying ever quest movement matters more than a game that is based on movement and the different skills putting you out of place to win or lose fights isn't positioning i have a issue with claims like that. Including saying tab target mmorpgs are more button presses than bdo in terms of combat with movement, cancels, quick skills you can use in-between others is also absurd.

    Ok if that's your stance it sounds like your argument would end up being with me after all.

    But I'm not in the mood I think, so I'll just write off the thread. Have 'fun'.

    Yup that is my stance, and there is no reason to talk about it when we can show gameplay and point out exactly why. There should be little head cannon only thing that should be shown are facts backed by actual gameplay.
  • AniionAniion Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    The are sources from a popular mmo forum in the post you're quoting? Idk if you didn't catch that but it was there when you replied to me. I'm not sure what other sources you want but I have a feeling you're going to say one of the most populated MMO forums online isn't a good enough place to garner general audience feedback 🙂
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    BDO has better animations than any mmorpg out there. Trying to say vfx is the same thing as animation of models of their rigs literally doesn't make sense.

    VFX being too flashy is one thing, same way animations and how they flow together is another.

    Yeah what this guy said. I pretty much understand now how so many people are obsessed with calling AoC combat bad because it's "too flashy". Something that can be turned down with a slider and you can disable other people's spell effects. And when I point out how good BDOs animations are and say that's where I feel like AoC is lacking, I get responses that complain about BDO being "too flashy". There's more to animation than flash lmao. People just don't understand the different parts of combat or just so stuck on the flash (something that can be literally turned down in minutes) that they are incapable of giving any other feedback.
  • AniionAniion Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Bobsyns wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »

    ***These things may not be highly appealing visually***, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks.

    What do you need in order to play a computer game?
    You need Eyes and a Monitor so you look at all times on your Screen.
    Effects need to be done in a way to give you the information without being annoying to look at and be visually appealing. Since you are using your Eyes to look at them at all times.
    Too flashy effects also shift the focus from the actual gameplay while blinding you and that's pretty annoying for a human's brain.
    If it's for a short video to watch - Flashy effects are great because you only get to look at them for short period of time. But if flashy effects are a part of a Game that's is probably expected to be played more than 30 minutes a session, there is some serious negatives that flashy effects bring.

    Sorry, I should have clarified that I trust Intrepid to give us the slider that they talked about, to lower these effects.

    The flashiness is not the main thing I was referring to, the speed and 'size' of the attacks is. The flash parts can be toned down.

    If you look at BDO or Tera or Throne and Liberty combat, they're quite fast, and they have quite a bit of flash, depending, but the speeds and sizes of the attacks are tuned to be visually accessible.

    I agree with you completely that if the flashing is making anything you need visually inaccessible, it's bad, but that doesn't have anything really to do with the 'speed' or strikes or the 'weightless' feeling that comes when a big weapon is swung in 15 frames (1/4 second).

    I also agree that it feels like the hits have little weight. Even watching Rohan combat and noticing when a person crit, it feels heavy. There should be more of a momentary pause when an attack hits, with accompanies sound and VFX that actually make it impactful. This is another thing I think BDO does really well. Every hit feels impactful. Whether you're a fast attacker or slow attacker, whether you're killing a lowlevel mob in one shot or taking 10 minutes to kill a mini-boss, all hits should feel more impactful. That's a combination of sound, visual hit-reg, character animation, etc. Right now it feels more like the character is attacking, and the mob is getting hit, and those two are a bit too independent.

    But I can definitely notice the improvement in Cleric basic attacks now compared to the first showcase. Just need it to be a lot more impactful.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Aniion wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Bobsyns wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »

    ***These things may not be highly appealing visually***, but they're probably required for the current design, so probably should also note if you don't have any interest in those things either and would give them up in order to get more weighty and nuanced attacks.

    What do you need in order to play a computer game?
    You need Eyes and a Monitor so you look at all times on your Screen.
    Effects need to be done in a way to give you the information without being annoying to look at and be visually appealing. Since you are using your Eyes to look at them at all times.
    Too flashy effects also shift the focus from the actual gameplay while blinding you and that's pretty annoying for a human's brain.
    If it's for a short video to watch - Flashy effects are great because you only get to look at them for short period of time. But if flashy effects are a part of a Game that's is probably expected to be played more than 30 minutes a session, there is some serious negatives that flashy effects bring.

    Sorry, I should have clarified that I trust Intrepid to give us the slider that they talked about, to lower these effects.

    The flashiness is not the main thing I was referring to, the speed and 'size' of the attacks is. The flash parts can be toned down.

    If you look at BDO or Tera or Throne and Liberty combat, they're quite fast, and they have quite a bit of flash, depending, but the speeds and sizes of the attacks are tuned to be visually accessible.

    I agree with you completely that if the flashing is making anything you need visually inaccessible, it's bad, but that doesn't have anything really to do with the 'speed' or strikes or the 'weightless' feeling that comes when a big weapon is swung in 15 frames (1/4 second).

    I also agree that it feels like the hits have little weight. Even watching Rohan combat and noticing when a person crit, it feels heavy. There should be more of a momentary pause when an attack hits, with accompanies sound and VFX that actually make it impactful. This is another thing I think BDO does really well. Every hit feels impactful. Whether you're a fast attacker or slow attacker, whether you're killing a lowlevel mob in one shot or taking 10 minutes to kill a mini-boss, all hits should feel more impactful. That's a combination of sound, visual hit-reg, character animation, etc. Right now it feels more like the character is attacking, and the mob is getting hit, and those two are a bit too independent.

    But I can definitely notice the improvement in Cleric basic attacks now compared to the first showcase. Just need it to be a lot more impactful.

    I don't know what version of BDO or class you play, but I can assure you that as a Kunoichi my hits do not 'feel impactful'. Corsair maybe a LITTLE bit, but usually nah.

    I am a flighty blitz of blades and since nearly every hit is cancelable frame 3, if my hits feel like they have weight, I'm doing it wrong.

    I mow down hordes of enemies without even paying attention to anything other than where they are positioned, PvE or PvP, and there are no minibosses I am aware of in BDO that respond to your hits in any way. 'Trash Mobs' at least can be staggered and you can feel it. Katzvariak just ignores me.

    BDO has a lot of useful illusions to make certain classes feel like you're landing impactful hits, but the faster/complex ones, and sometimes the optimal play for the mid-speed ones, ditches all that.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    BDO combat is way too fast for an MMORPG.
    Feels more like a Fighter than an RPG.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    BDO combat is way too fast for an MMORPG.
    Feels more like a Fighter than an RPG.

    I agree it is too fast and sporadic. Sometimes too much speed makes you lose more tactical elements of combat.
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I find BDO fun when I am in the mood for action combat. Another one I find fun is Neverwinter Online.
    q1nu38cjgq3j.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Aniion wrote: »
    The are sources from a popular mmo forum in the post you're quoting? Idk if you didn't catch that but it was there when you replied to me. I'm not sure what other sources you want but I have a feeling you're going to say one of the most populated MMO forums online isn't a good enough place to garner general audience feedback
    I mean, Reddit is less reliable than Wikipedia.

    At the very least, this thread is proof that there is a good amount of general disdain towards BDO's combat. I see no reason at all to need any more proof than that to point out to you that BDO does not have widely (nor even generally, imo) well regarded combat, let alone almost unanimously.

    Now, you are free to argue the same with my point as to the game having almost unanimously panned combat - but I was obviously being facetious.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited April 2023
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.

    Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.

    I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.

    As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.
  • RymRym Member, Alpha Two
    I think combat is moving in a great direction. Whenever I see WoW combat or FFXIV combat I want to puke and I feel like I'm dying of boredom.

    Nothing comes to the golden standard of Aion combat, and I have the feeling Ashes is going for a very similar combat style.

    Their combat direction is absolutely good.
    787m8dm96z5g.gif
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.

    Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.

    I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.

    As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.

    Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.

    Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited April 2023
    I wish there were polls here, I could make a poll giving examples of games and ask which combat speed is better, from the slowest game to the fastes

    UO: slowest
    WoW: average
    BDO: fastest

    I like something between WoW and BDO, which would be Guild Wars 2
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.

    Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.

    I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.

    As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.

    Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.

    Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
    The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed.

    Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular.

    Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games.

    Why would we?

    Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved.

    You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.

    Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.

    I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.

    As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.

    Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.

    Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.

    You're not even talking about the same damn thing at this point. Make up your mind.

    You say BDO is too fast, most of us can agree that it is 'too fast', but then you say that the games Noaani plays can't be faster as if that's somehow good.

    Anyone who would like BDO combat to be considerably slower or thinks that the game's animations and interactions with mobs have 'weight' wants it to be slower than EQ or FFXI.

    So you're basically arguing with yourself at that point.

    Either BDO is too fast and isn't as good, so the 'old tab target games' are correct speed and tactics, or BDO is fine and you want combat to be faster than them.

    It takes me the same amount of time to get behind an enemy and set up a 'Sneak Attack' on Kunoichi and on Thief in both games, and the same thing happens in both of them, the only difference is how fast BDO starts the animation.

    BDO looks faster because it uses animation tricks to look faster. That appeals to some people, me included, but don't go acting like just because it looks faster that it is. That just tells everyone you're falling for the trick or refusing to listen.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.

    Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.

    I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.

    As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.

    Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.

    Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
    The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed.

    Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular.

    Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games.

    Why would we?

    Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved.

    You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.

    You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference.

    ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning.

    You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.

    Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO

    EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Marzzo wrote: »
    Austrinaut wrote: »
    Lot of good discussion here, here's my two bits: I really like the way they're going with combat. It's fast paced and messy like REAL combat. The visual effects are bright and loud so you know something happened. I don't want to look up and see my health bar is empty and there's been a rogue behind me for five seconds stabbing me and I didn't notice.

    It does make sense that they'd get toned down for sieges though. I'm sure they'll have an optimization algorithm to cut down lag for that.

    The problem is that Two-Handed Greatswords literally hit faster than any man could swing a long sword. It simply looks jerky, wonky and messy. 1 hit per second is good enough when swinging a massive sword. Currently we are at 3-4 swings per seconds or something crazy.

    there's also people shooting lighting bolts from their fingers, summoning meteors, jumping in heavy armor, rolling maybe? falling off heights that would end a regular human, etc etc etc

    games don't have to be realistic...
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Aniion wrote: »

    Now none of this means BDO combat is objectively great or even good, but saying it's almost unanimously panned at being horrible is gonna need a few sources before I start believing that lmao.
    If you are going to say BDO's combat is almost unanimously amazing combat with no sources, I can say that it has almost universally panned combat with no sources.

    Basically, don't demand sources when you make rubbish claims without citing sources.

    Fact is, BDO combat is all flash and no real substance. 20 year old tab target games see players need to make more decisions, press more buttons and consider positioning more than BDO does. All BDO has is it's looks.

    This is false.

    Right, so, you haven't played the game I am talking about.

    I have played both BDO (even if for a short amount of time), and the game I am talking about.

    As such, since I was making a direct comparison between two games (even if one of them was not named), you are in quite literally no position to have an opinion on this matter.

    Your comment does not express experience wise anything of the nature of BDO. But you are free to share gameplay clips on multiple tab target mmorpgs and say their combat is faster and requires better positioning with proof.

    Saying bad takes is really pointless, games are out there show gameplay.
    The problem with gameplay clips is that they don't actually show how many decisions are being made, and often also don't show how many buttons are being pressed.

    Also, as I have said to you many, many times, the game I am talking about - in the time period I am talking about - does not have clips posted to YouTube. For a start, we are talking about a time before YouTube even existed, and LONG before it was even remotely popular.

    Further, people that play games for reasons other than "oh look at all the pretty lights" don't tend to be as vain as those that do play for such reasons, and so don't tend to record themselves playing games.

    Why would we?

    Fact is, if you don't/haven't play such games, you have no idea at all as to what is involved.

    You are absolutely free to espouse the better aspects of BDO all you want, have at it as far as I am concerned. However, you are in no position to compare it to a game you have never played.

    You can show gameplay clips on games it that in truth they are much slower, it is simply easier for you not to show them. You don't need all decision making to be clear in a clip it s about showing some element of the gameplay you can use to point out as reference.

    ie * if you are talking about amount of skills used you do not need decision making explained you need to show and say a few things on what is going on and how it is faster. The same thing can be said for positioning.

    You talk about people have not played these order games, those older games are dated and the combat is just as dated and slower with the only one you bring up being EQ2 since I've played EQ1. And jumping in EQ2 for a bit I can tell its no where near BDO.

    Fact is I've played a ton of tab target mmorpgs since everquest and that is exactly why I know the seen of those games do not equal BDO

    EVEN if the mmorpg is dated and old you can show clips for any of those games they all exist. If it is faster you don't need a perfect clip either any type of content should do so it is "better" on a general scale with what you are saying. Which is false because all those older games are slower.

    You know what, I'll take this bet.

    I got time.

    I expect that the only think you will say is 'slower' is the fact that in old Tab Target games the character doesn't have to move, but this is true in BDO too, depending on what class you're playing. I don't move on Nova to fight Kutum, I don't need to move to fight Dim Tree on Kuno, the movements happen because the animation moves you (and sometimes puts you right back where you started) so that it feels dynamic. I move against Dim Tree because it's more fun, not because it's necessary.

    So looking past the fact that you have the option to move, they're the same and I DO have videos.

    But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ah, how unfortunate, Mag must have needed to do something else at the exact moment that I offered to bring the videos for comparison. Perhaps went to work.

    But don't worry, I've made sure to collect them all and a few extras in case the conditions for some don't suit the discussion. The 'Nova vs Kutum' video will take a little longer to get since World Bosses are on a schedule, but rest assured I will get that too.

    So, whenever you are ready, the requested data can be provided with the explanations you asked for and we can have a proper discussion. Just a shame you had to go right then. So it goes sometimes on forums.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    But I wanna confirm one thing first. You do understand that we're talking about PvE, right? Can I at least get you to promise you won't try to 'counter' this by going 'well in PvP it would be more movement!' because no one is talking about that when comparing BDO to 'old Tab Target MMOs'.
    I'd still argue that L2 had at the very least as much apm as BDO in pvp, but we've been through this discussion a few times already iirc, so it'd be pointless :)
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