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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I don't view simply just hitting the back of an opponent over it being over complicated that is in most mmorpgs where you get bonus damage. There becomes a difference when you have a lot more mobility tools with your dashes / teleport and the way your attacks effect your movement. If you are simply clicking and using your skills it isn't that difficult to get on the back of one it is pretty straight forward between than and trying to keep them off your back.
Feints for this game I can only assume if based on spacing which lets you dodge some attacks. You are free to explain further if you like. But a game that has more mobility like bdo it is going to add a lot more complexity to the game that is natural if you have like 20 different skills that have different forms of movement or lack of to do different forms of dmg. Including the rotation of iframes, and SA.
I'd have to see these different versions of L2 to be able to judge and understand the gameplay loop. Eventually in tab target things start to feel the same skill wise with a lack of unique feeling per attack. IE if you are using 7 skills but they pretty much hit the same, compare d to another game where those skills might not be hitting the same.
That doesn't hold up for me, you don't need to understand everything about the game when being shown gameplay. It gives you an idea of the pace even if you don't understand everything. For example you showing you can your skills really quickly in your attacks and a bit of the movement to keep people off your back and their positioning on that player to also try to get towards the back.
But again what I'm talking about the feeling of overall speed with everything together not just in the element of how quickly one uses skills. If i could use 20 skills per second i wouldn't see it as a fast game depending how it played. Though it be a really high chance id see it as fast pace if it was an action game.
Having played tab games for to long I know a lot of the issues and patterns and it does not feel the same has having action elements. It is just easier when it is purely tab base since you don't need to worry about as many issues.
btw Im not saying more speed is a good thing, it isn't really a competition for what is the fastest game, nor does it make a game better. Its about the right balance.
One thing I have noticed about PvP focused games, all classes tend to hover much closer to each other in terms of speed of play - though so far this is just a casual observation as opposed to something I am willing to state as a fact, or even a tendency.
EQ2 had a much wider gap between its faster classes (0.5 second cast time ability base, able to be bought down to 0.25 seconds - and needing to be timed with auto attack for maximum effect as well as having positioning be key) and it's slower classes (2.5 second average base cast time, bought down to 1.25, no real need to time for auto attack, positioning still being key, but decisions made are significantly more impactful).
At the base, this is a 500% increase in average cast time from the fastest class to the slowest class. To me, this is a good thing, as different classes actually feel and play incredibly different (ie, decision making being key on one class, to rhythm being key on another etc).
Perhaps I am missing something, but I have yet to see a PvP focused game with that much variety between the speed of its classes.
And again, all of this is based on your mouse clicks, which you needed to use as targeting, so the overall pace of actions was higher and you had to keep track of more stuff and act precisely on that tracking.
Feints usually came down to the knowledge of the opponents skillset and the general order of its use. And some classes depended on the spacing, but it was more about "if he enters this radius, will he use this ability or another one" and that enemy bating a wrong move by stopping for fraction of a second to make the other dude think he was about to use a certain ability. But this usually only worked at the very top lvl of pvp, so was somewhat rare.
Like I said, there's a big lack of videos for L2. Especially considering that a ton of people disliked the newer versions so they only played on old private servers, so there was even fewer videos for the new stuff.
Yes, it's all about the amount of stuff you gotta consider and how quickly you gotta do that. And videos don't tell you any of that, because you don't know what the player is considering or what he's reading in his enemy's actions. The pace of combat just implies all that stuff, but as Azherae said, BDO fools people into thinking there's more stuff to consider, while in reality there isn't much. Though I know you disagree with that, but that's a thing you two can argue on your own, cause I don't know enough about BDO to do that. I'm just saying that if L2 can have a high pace of combat and I know that it requires a ton of consideration during fights, I'm willing to believe that there are other tab games that can have the same design.
I can't really speak for other games, but L2's speed variety gets sanded down by the dependence of its animation on the atk/cast speed. Late game has really high cast/atk speed, so the overall speed of everything is high too, which makes you feel that everyone is at the same lvl.
On one hand that's bad, because everyone feels almost the same, but on the other hand it's good because people are more equal in pvp, so even melee classes have a chance to beat ranged ones because they're fast enough with their attacks.
But lower lvls have a ton of speed variety. A few phys classes have very long casts, but do a good chunk of dmg. Daggers have really fast animations. Mages vary depending on their race. The difference is probably not as big as EQ's, but it's present.
This here is my theory.
I cant really imagine how to create a viable PvP class that is based on slow casting, with multiple 3 or 4 second cast spells.
Even 2 seconds in PvP is an eternity.
Still just a theory though. Happy for people with experience in PvP games other than L2 and Archeage (the two games NiKr and I have ample PvP experience in between us, for those reading along at home) to weigh in.
I would imagine the same holds true for fighting games as well, perhaps Azherae may have some insight on that point.
It would be a ward/bubble class with dummy thick defensives and support and not a whole lot of people would play it.
Video required as prerequisite for explanation, but is not in itself explanation.
Fighting Games solve this differently than BDO and certain PvP games by having lower mobility and a somewhat limited 'optimal movement range'. 2D ones limit you in the way seen above. 3D ones are a different matter that I can explain by grabbing Mag7's Siegfried play that I have somewhere from before on these forums.
Basically it takes 2-3 seconds to close the distance safely so long cast times are ok when applied in one of three ways.
1. The cast itself must finish, and has a duration over which it does damage and probably lowers the mobility of the opponent, MMO equiv: Mage's Black Hole or Prismatic Beam.
2. The charge time is not 'rooting you' but 'requiring you to hold a button which for whatever reason reduces your other options while you are holding it'. These are reasonable to have a player hold for up to 3 seconds in Fighting Games. Release and execution of the attack may still not be instant even then (up to 25f startup is common). The player is 'charging up' and trying to put the opposing player in the right position for unleash at the right time. This type works in MMO PvP provided it has enough defenses or discouragements, while remaining mainly balanced even with a good tank.
3. The character moves slowly in general but the opponent has multiple sorta-passive reasons other than the long casts that they do not want to be near this character. Often requires that the character has 'bubble' type or 'frontal guard' type defenses, resistance to slows, and timed counterattacks. This type doesn't work well in MMO/MOBA situations in my experience because the mirror match ends up feeling stupid. For Fighting Gamers this can be fine/fun because micromovement matters more in those. Better MOBAs allow you to make builds where it works similar to that.
Even then, the timeframes don't often get into the 2-3 second range but this is a little 'non-applicable' to fighting games of certain complexity because the better players may spend 3-5 seconds just minutely repositioning without real attacks.
Inapplicable to BDO because BDO is a 10 second button-masher with single-interaction rounds for 90% of its engagements. It has a theoretical skill space where this is not true, but the type of player who likes BDO for the combat is normally actually not a Fighting Game player seriously because it is not as satisfying to them due to the shallow nature of the combat.
Even those people who prefer to 'play games where you flit around for 6 seconds and then combo the opponent to death for 10, want to be able to show off their 10 second Touch of Death combo skills, whereas in BDO you can kill someone with minimal actual combo skill faster than they could even attempt to respond.
Basically, such characters exist on the Fighting Game side, and FFXI PvP does have some similar situations as well, but it's difficult to explain it to the unfamiliar.
The video offers what little I can show easily from a 2D game that is similar to BDO. "Actually rather slow but looks fast".
The only 3D game I know that is similar to BDO is Soul Calibur, which is both ironic and annoying given what it will likely trigger if we for some reason continued to discuss it in order to improve our feedback.
2 seconds is an eternity, and the better the game, the more it is an 'eternity of tiny decisions'. Whether that is deciding to constantly act (Kunoichi above) or constantly watch (Crusader above).
Are we discussing Ashes combat or BDO combat.
I don’t think Ashes is similar enough to BDO to gain anything.
I do.
Forgive the flippant empty response, but in my experience and extrapolating, Ashes is going to be closer to BDO than almost any other PvP combat game besides ArcheAge.
There is, at minimum, no contrary evidence that we've been provided.
They could definitely go in a direction that adds more depth, but the two are very similar.
Have you ever played GW2?
Try it if you haven’t, cuz Ashes combat is sibling like in similarity. Aside from the fact that Steven has said GW2 is a major influence. (Which I wish it wasn’t, I know the BDO pixelshow is an influence too)
Then games like Valheim have enough structure to offer Ashes something in terms of basics. Hopefully they branch out.
I don't have any specific response to this. I was indirectly asked for data and provided it while attempting to maintain relevance to the topic. I understand that you disagree that my data provides relevance to the topic, but I have no specific reason to value your analysis(?) over my own at this time.
Please note that since I'm arrogant and toxic, I'm just going to view this as your bias until we have a proper discussion. Lots of people look at Ashes combat and see what they want to see. I at least know that I can speak for myself when I say that I don't see something I specifically want or like, so I feel it's less likely to be bias.
I find Ashes' described intents and frame data to be considerably closer to BDO than to GW2, with the main connector being the 'Split Body motion', which tends to lead to a perception shift.
I'm happy to hear your reasons why Ashes combat is not like BDO, with the note that I tend to talk more about the strategies that emerge from the frame data that end up being effective, than about the 'feel of combat'.
I have no idea why you responded to me with a big wall of text, which is why I'm short. I was talking to Noanni seeing as I don't think a slow moving bubble casting class would be fun.
I look at Ashes and read direct quotes from Steven and listening to the combat "reveals", the devs have directly said GW2 is a major influence. Then I play GW2 for the conformation. Ask me if I care about arrogance and toxicity, I don't even really know what toxicity means I observed it's usually used by a bunch of attention seeking invalids. I'm assuming this is a meme or a gaff.
Steven has said that GW2s combat is a direct influence on Ashes combat where BDOs flash is also a direct influence. Whatever Steven means by any of that.
On the contrary, I think perfect block is a great fit for Ashes, as would perfect dodge.
The way they handle block exhaustion would also fit well.
And there would be stats that could support that.
Other half of data, for the 'big bruiser character with reasons why you don't want to approach them'.
This is still mostly 2D but you CAN try to circle around your opponent if you want. One doesn't do so because side-movement doesn't require anything from the opponent. If you were locked onto a Tab Target in Ashes that would be the same. The player doing the sidesteps would be wasting time since your character would just keep track of them anyway.
Some people believe that the 'correct' way to play the larger character here is to 'calmly walk forward and use your range options' because the opponent can't easily close the distance in time. If they try, even with a very quick thing, sometimes the options available are too strong (there's a point where Mag uses a metered attack to destructively and decisively punish a roll).
In that sense, therefore, what you'd have is the whole 'I am holding a button to prepare one of my powerful attacks, while calmly advancing and keeping track of your position and my other (limited) instant attacks are on standby'.
The mobile/faster player must then feint in a way that makes the player either unleash the slow 'Charged' attack and miss, or use up their limited instant attack without reward, and then get another approach before it's available again.
In Ashes terms this could be the equivalent of 'tricking a tank into using Tremoring Bellow' without it actually landing the CC, when that Tank player who has Weapon Skill for example that has been 'charging for a while'. These character types are actually common, but only in games where the 'bruiser' character has tools to deal with repetitive long ranged attacks and retreating.
In a game with reasonably long TTK, this would probably work fine even if the charge/cast times were long. Decent to balance in full group, but likely to be overwhelmed by multiple opponents compared to a high mobility rapid attacker.
Bonus if being CCed doesn't cancel your charge as long as you keep holding the button, which is basically the main prerequisite for 'making long charge times anything other than stupid in these games'. The CC would still be useful because you could use it to prevent the 'instant attack' and get some damage, but the 'bruiser' would still have a chance of landing their big attack, instead of 'starting that attack, telegraphing it completely, obviously getting CCed, and becoming useless'.
At 0:15 you can see the MC take 6 shots to the face while they charge up (it's the Sonic Focus (7th on the bar) in the combat log). The tradeoff for this charging system is obviously a shitton of hp on this class (and the other class that uses this mechanic).
You can disregard the general ttk of this video cause it's a pvp server with OEd weapons and full autobuff, but the mechanic itself is not changed.
At 1:33 Steven tries to kill the MC, but doesn't quite manage to do it.
Two days ago Blizzard released a mini clip of their sorcerer, and some of the animations there is very much in terms of what I'd love for AoC ( https://fb.gg/v/jWAnk1hA5d/ < Video is here, or simply check Diablo's official FB page). Look at the animations when she freezes her enemies and when she puts up the fire wall. Imo, that is some really good work for a more "plain" caster style. I really like her idle stance where she casually holds the flame at the ready too. I wanted to share it here because I feel like casters often get the short draw when it comes to love from the animation team. The teams always focus so much on the effects that they forget the actual animation behind the attacks.
Now a more action based magic user could look something like this (BDO, Witch Awakening weapon -
... I just wanted to share my opinion that animations matter when it comes to the fantasy genre. It matters to many of us. And I love a lot from what I've seen in AoC. My favorite is the ranger showcase - especially the vault ability! It sent shivers down my spine first time I saw it! And I really liked what little we've seen of the daggers too!
I just can't wait to see the animation teams final version of all classes.
I can appreciate your preference for beauty, but when it comes to combat I'd the animations and art to be a bit more grounded.
Which is why I hope ultimately they use mocap to achieve that.
Curious what you mean by this? You want all combat to use mocap? Even if you are using mocap it is very floaty, you go through it in animation.
I'd like the animations to feel a bit more natural, especially done by a martial artist expert. From those animations we can get VFX appropriate for Ashes artstyle.
Right now the art of the whole is detached from the rest of the art.
But that's really not the only thing in combat that needs to be further developed, such as how block and dodge (dodge roll) is going to work.
That's probably a different topic for here, since people are more focused on art.
That can always help, im down for good animations that is why i always suggest BDO as a reference. Though budget is also a thing as well, when you have triple A doing all those kinds of things for all animations there is a balance.
Whatever they do if they could get to like 70% of bdo animations I'd be pretty happy.
I just really would like to see the classes match the rest of the worlds aesthetic, I think tank is the closest we've gotten so far.
I'd also really would like a clearer grasp on what defines a hybrid in Intrepids eyes.
I feel they have mentioned this though, its more so giving the players options and making sure both feel good. So you could do tab or action on a lot of skills, but I'm sure some you will have to use one or the other. But than the old argument comes up about balancing with one being easier to use than the other.
Which i say if something requires more effort it should naturally give more of a benefit.
Also we have seen so little on skills its hard for me to say much one way or the other. Ranger skills looked pretty solid including the jumping one.
I'm glad some of you guys liked Ranger. I'm a bit more of a traditionalist and literal. Ranger is an outdoor survivalist, seemed more like a physical nature mage.
It seems to me they're still in the drawing board stage of classes, I hope nothing is solidified yet.
I'd like to see Ashes put the envelope in combat as most MMOs dont even try to attempt it.
I like both! I think GW2 makes for a good ranger archerype. But I am all for choice, more physical stuff for those who like that, and more druidic connection for those who like that!
Like, a ranger/fighter or ranger/thief should be mostly physical. Poison, mud camouflage, traps, pure physical endurance... (DnD sub class references: hunter, monster slayer)
And a ranger/mage, ranger/bars etc should be more nature magic in their arsenal. (DnD sub class references: fey wanderer, swarm keeper, arcane archer ((not ranger, but it should be!)))
In other words, why not both!
I actually like GW2s ranger a bit more at the moment. I could be a full melee ranger and that's where its at for me.