At What Point of Player-Inactivity Should Legendary/Limited Items Re-Drop?

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  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    This answer doesn't really change much as the expectation to get these "unique legendary gear" you should be using great based on the challenges. I most likely would approach it within tiers than full bis to begin with.
    What I was trying to get at was this. The Unique will not necessarily fit your current build. Hell, it might not even fit any of the builds in your raid/guild. So at that point, the one who gets the Unique will have to create a whole new build to fit the Unique. And if that build takes several weeks (let alone months-year+) - the Unique would be gone before they even get to use it properly.

    And the chances that someone outside your guild has the perfect build for that item and has enough money to pay your guild for it are abysmal.

    You say that short-lived Uniques would push people to use them, but imo that creates a high stress "feel bad" situation. At first you might be happy that you got the item, but then you realize that if you use it w/o a proper build you'll probably be weaker than you currently are. And if you don't use it - the item is completely useless, so your achievement is meaningless. So why would people continue going after these Uniques if they can never properly utilize them.

    The only way to truly experience the Unique's power would be to just have a shitton of money on you at all times, so that you can by the item itself and any other gear that would fit its build (though even this requires you to have the best possible archetype for it). But at that point, who's doing the achievement of having a Unique? Is it the rich boi who's never even touched the boss or is it the guild that spent months preparing and defending their farm all just to sell the literally best loot from it?
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited May 2023
    There are easy answers to those this isn't solo content we are talking about very special type items. f you have multiple guilds and groups killing it, unless they are setting loot filters to ninja loot level for this, most likely they are going to have a gm giving certain items / mats to people. It isn't just going to be random anyone who gets it. And most likely as a guild / group they will have plans for it.

    I understand what you are saying about builds and such and why i also suggested it have some universal modifiers that will still boost whomever is using it. Honestly with special items like these there are cool things you can do. (not that this will ever be in the design) but you can give them cool types of abilities to use with long cooldowns or maybe only useable in wars. Taking a page literally out of throne and liberty for example where you turn into a giant siege creature. So instead of your normal battering ram you can change change it if you have a certain special legendary to some sort of other creature.

    That is just one example but you can use these types of special legendary items in unique ways that still give them a lot of value even if it doesn't exactly match your build with it also giving universal buffs as well. (though my above point i feel stands with the guild / group being picky on who they will allow to get it.)
    @NiKr
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    There are disparities between having an item, using an item and maintaining an item. I have no pity for those who rush to use a legendary in every situation. The repairs will be slow and expensive.

    Steven has said dropped gear will not be bis so the liklihood a unique legendary will be more powerful than a crafted piece is unlikely. The fact a top end raider also wants timers tells you all you need to know.

    In my mind, unique legendaries will bridge the gap between those who have and those who have not. Thus, it is imperative they remain permanent until they can naturally be replaced.

    Well we both have our assumptions we will see what is right. I expect things to change again when it comes to special cases of gear.

    This is open development and as they have said some things change, nor do we know what special stats will be on unique legendary gear. Assuming all rules apply to them seems a bit naïve unless said otherwise.

    I'm not really going to get into the maintain thing since that opens up a lot of other topics I could get into we both can be assuming with as well.

    Never assume it makes an ass out of you and me. All my feedback was based on what Steven has said and the game design.
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  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited May 2023
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    That is just one example but you can use these types of special legendary items in unique ways that still give them a lot of value even if it doesn't exactly match your build with it also giving universal buffs as well. (though my above point i feel stands with the guild / group being picky on who they will allow to get it.)
    If Intrepid go down the "fits anyone" route with Uniques, I guess I wouldn't really care if they are short-lived. Mainly because, in a way, that's how L2's "uniques" worked. While they weren't one-of-a-kind items, they did fit a broad range of applicable classes.

    And as for guilds, as I said here before, I shared those very uniques in L2 with others, so yeah I know that guilds will give the item to the most appropriate member (well, unless they're nepotists of course). But literally the same thing would happen with the long-lived Unique, which is why I don't really consider this a strong argument either :)
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    There are disparities between having an item, using an item and maintaining an item. I have no pity for those who rush to use a legendary in every situation. The repairs will be slow and expensive.

    Steven has said dropped gear will not be bis so the liklihood a unique legendary will be more powerful than a crafted piece is unlikely. The fact a top end raider also wants timers tells you all you need to know.

    In my mind, unique legendaries will bridge the gap between those who have and those who have not. Thus, it is imperative they remain permanent until they can naturally be replaced.

    Well we both have our assumptions we will see what is right. I expect things to change again when it comes to special cases of gear.

    This is open development and as they have said some things change, nor do we know what special stats will be on unique legendary gear. Assuming all rules apply to them seems a bit naïve unless said otherwise.

    I'm not really going to get into the maintain thing since that opens up a lot of other topics I could get into we both can be assuming with as well.

    Never assume it makes an ass out of you and me. All my feedback was based on what Steven has said and the game design.

    Again things change in development, things are not always set in stone, that is mentioned in the live streams.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yes but I have only seen changes applied when the community is all on an even keel. When Steven has given an answer it is rare the dynamic changes. Sometimes Steven doesn't give an answer and there is room for negotiation. Yet, Steven does cover almost everything considering the thousands of pages in the initial design documents.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    That is just one example but you can use these types of special legendary items in unique ways that still give them a lot of value even if it doesn't exactly match your build with it also giving universal buffs as well. (though my above point i feel stands with the guild / group being picky on who they will allow to get it.)
    If Intrepid go down the "fits anyone" route with Uniques, I guess I wouldn't really care if they are short-lived. Mainly because, in a way, that's how L2's "uniques" worked. While they weren't one-of-a-kind items, they did fit have a broad range of applicable classes.

    And as for guilds, as I said here before, I shared those very uniques in L2 with others, so yeah I know that guilds will give the item to the most appropriate member (well, unless they're nepotists of course). But literally the same thing would happen with the long-lived Unique, which is why I don't really consider this a strong argument either :)

    If im not mistaken you were the one making the argument about it not fitting some ones build? My comment is simply against the fact it will be thought on a per person basis over group / guild with people involved in running the content?

    I can open up a lot more questions to this as well when we are talking about builds and such. At the moment i feel there is a lot of different ways to go about builds on paper atleast with all the class and customization. So how many unique will there be if they don't have any kind of universal purpose and it is truly fit per type of build.

    If by chance they are very build focus and end up being useless on a lot of people if there are only a few unique are most people out of luck by default on even caring? Or if they plan to make a lot what is the time that is being allowed to make that many over other content in the game?

    Those would just be some serious questions on how they might tackle them if they aren't universal-ish.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited May 2023
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If im not mistaken you were the one making the argument about it not fitting some ones build? My comment is simply against the fact it will be thought on a per person basis over group / guild with people involved in running the content?
    Yes, but across a super long time of having that Unique in guild's possession, there might be players that decide to work towards a build that matches it. If anything, I feel like this would be a deeper overall interaction for all sides involved, as long as we all know the Uniques that drop.

    Say Guild A drops a weapon for a specific tank build. Other pieces of that build drop in a particular location. Now guild B, that's been trying to fight guild A for a long time, knows that they could contest that location to try and prevent guild A from making a stronger build.

    Hell, I'd love if Uniques enabled some mat drops in certain locations, that then led to new dials during crafting. This would bring a whole new lvl to guild competitiveness and location control. But that's obviously a whole different discussion.

    But the point is, this would only work if the item stays for a long while. Or, as you say, if it fit anyone. And if it fits anyone, then there's no real reason to keep it exclusive, cause everyone will already have a build that "fits" it.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    If im not mistaken you were the one making the argument about it not fitting some ones build? My comment is simply against the fact it will be thought on a per person basis over group / guild with people involved in running the content?
    Yes, but across a super long time of having that Unique in guild's possession, there might be players that decide to work towards a build that matches it. If anything, I feel like this would be a deeper overall interaction for all sides involved, as long as we all know the Uniques that drop.

    Say Guild A drops a weapon for a specific tank build. Other pieces of that build drop in a particular location. Now guild B, that's been trying to fight guild A for a long time knows that they could contest that location to try and prevent guild A from making a stronger build.

    Hell, I'd love if Uniques enabled some mat drops in certain locations, that then led to new dials during crafting. This would bring a whole new lvl to guild competitiveness and location control. But that's obviously a whole different discussion.

    But the point is, this would only work if the item stays for a long while. Or, as you say, if it fit anyone. And if it fits anyone, then there's no real reason to keep it exclusive, cause everyone will already have a build that "fits" it.

    I get that can be cool for people, but it is kind of lame that only certain classes / builds get to use unique gear effectively. It becomes a faction out of already a tiny faction of gameplay elements. And this goes to me thinking is that worth it development wise over future content. So it ends up with 3 in the game as kind of meme legacy items.

    Im not sure about triggering mat drops, a lot of this stuff makes sense if you are talking about what i suggest in cycling it so it is a strong item but you have it for a few weeks before its gone.

    Allowing a guild (a few people that control it) to have this kind of stuff for insane periods of time does not really sound like it should be impacting gameplay like that. Sounds like a bad idea where they just are forever ahead of everything. It doesn't leave it open for new competitive guilds to have such a item.

    Only way i see this long term id be more ok-ish with is once the node is destroyed the legendary item is lost. So it kind of becomes part of the node / guild that controls it. So the item can last as long term as the node can survive.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I really don't see the value in unique legendaries. We can make crafted legendaries look like unique pieces through the enchantment tree, we can also apply traits and special effects too according to Steven.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    I really don't see the value in unique legendaries. We can make crafted legendaries look like unique pieces through the enchantment tree, we can also apply traits and special effects too according to Steven.

    They could not allow you to do so, again i wouldn't assume everything applies to these since they are unique. You can talk about overall development but changes or special rules can pop up for certain instances. Take the open sea pvp as an example.

    My worry is there won't be any value in them as well though by the time you can do the content to clear them and making sure they are balanced. But we need to see more before i can be more critical about it.

    Maybe though i just don't like the idea of only one legendary and rather all legendary gear be very rare as it is with different tiers.

    And unique be artifacts with special traits that can influence the world for set amount of time players can control. And further creating player driven content.

    My mind set is pretty ambitious though, with expectations i don't expect to be ever met.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The enchantment tree is not tied to unique legendaries. Crafted Legendary gear is ornate and bis. It's akin to orange weapons in bdo at max rank being better than red weapons maxed out. Very few people got the orange weapons maxed out though.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    The enchantment tree is not tied to unique legendaries. Crafted Legendary gear is ornate and bis. It's akin to orange weapons in bdo at max rank being better than red weapons maxed out. Very few people got the orange weapons maxed out though.

    Do you have a link for this for aoc?

    In BDO all items are enhanced including orange.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Enchanting

    Yeah you could enhance all items but stats wise an orange maxed out was better than a red maxed out when I played. I had both and never used my red after this discovery. Furthermore, the road was very rocky at the time. I haven't played bdo for several years now though.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Enchanting

    Yeah you could enhance all items but stats wise an orange maxed out was better than a red maxed out when I played. I had both and never used my red after this discovery. Furthermore, the road was very rocky at the time. I haven't played bdo for several years now though.

    Maybe I'm blind but i don't see anywhere there where they say you can't enchant a legendary?
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I didn't say you can't enchant a unique legendary, I said enchantment is not tied to a unique legendary. Thus, I thought you wanted the reference for the crafted legendaries being ornate and getting unique traits/effects at max enchantment level like a unique legendary.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    I didn't say you can't enchant a unique legendary, I said enchantment is not tied to a unique legendary. Thus, I thought you wanted the reference for the crafted legendaries being ornate and getting unique traits/effects at max enchantment level like a unique legendary.

    I'd need to see them before i can judge, or how the gear works in general when they start showing more of that design. Hard for me to have exact thoughts on it. I just expect legendary gear to have special traits. And simply had an idea with the unique legendary gear with my example of it having stronger effects for potential player driven content.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yeah. I mean a unique legendary will probably have a better skin but I refer you back to what Steven said about dropped gear not being bis. I imagine you could enchant a unique legendary to make it bis otherwise it wouldn't be called a legendary. Thus, I still see both unique and crafted legendaries to be equal at max enchantment.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited May 2023
    Neurath wrote: »
    Yeah. I mean a unique legendary will probably have a better skin but I refer you back to what Steven said about dropped gear not being bis. I imagine you could enchant a unique legendary to make it bis otherwise it wouldn't be called a legendary. Thus, I still see both unique and crafted legendaries to be equal at max enchantment.

    We will see what happens but i wouldn't be so sure until the gear is shown nothing is set in stone until release, and it isn't unreasonable to think items like these will have different rule sets.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I also wonder if stats on a unique legendary can be changed:

    There will also be methods of moving stat blocks around but this won't necessarily be an easy task.[60][56]
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  • ShadowVenShadowVen Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    If in fact Intrepid was talking about "Equipable finished items" Then I'm on the stance of no redrops no matter how long the player is gone for. It should be able to be dropped during PVP corrupted state though for sure.

    Now, we know that Intrepid's plans on having crafted items to be the best gear, so i'm leaning towards those 1 per server items to be a craftable material that is used for a legendary finished product. In this instance, logically, as soon as its picked up and used in a recipe, the material no longer exists in that server and now is turned into the finished product. There by means of absolutely no re-drop.
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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yeah, I wondered if we can deconstruct a unique legendary. I think we should be able to deconstruct a legendary.
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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Honestly after reading this i feel they should just axe the idea of unique legendary gear and have some different type of item with different rule sets. Save time and money and put that into content on building the game and trying to keep up with what people actually want.

    This isn't a win situation either the legendary gear will be strong and create imbalance and people salty when things are nerfed, or gear is a meme and either way all the hours that goes into it could have been better used on making more actual content.

    My 2 cents, but pretty much done with this at this point. Everyone just has the mind set they are going to be the one to get it imo.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'm of the mind set that anything can be bought. I feel I can get enough gold to be going on with.
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  • Neurath wrote: »
    ....I just don't like redrops on a timer....
    BaSkA_9x2 wrote: »
    Simpler solution: a Legendary item lasts for X durability & Y days.

    Yours truly isn't a fan of the notion of possessing an item on a timer; If the player is playing, then they should keep it and 1/server item shouldn't drop again.

    Neurath wrote: »
    So, by your logic a gold in the Olympics would have to be given back when a competitor leaves the game for an extended period?

    Isn't there another, separate gold medal to win, in the next Olympics - and isn't there still a history/record of who had won it, previosuly?
    Neurath wrote: »
    Placing a timer on anything makes it less desirable. You will literally turn a good feature into a bad feature with a timer. Seasonal items are good for a laugh but never taken seriously.

    Whole-heartedly agree with you, on this one. Would hate to loot a 1/server item from a World Boss, only to look at the stats and see that - no matter how active I am - it's going away in 3 weeks.
    Neurath wrote: »
    I really don't see the value in unique legendaries. We can make crafted legendaries look like unique pieces through the enchantment tree, we can also apply traits and special effects too according to Steven.

    It's still a mark of accomplishment - whether you've obtained it via running the actual content, or being hawk-eyed on the markets.

    I'm fine with it, if such items are cosmetic-only. It's still something to show off, and it's easier to be fond of a special item, over an item you know that pretty much any player can obtain.

    @Neurath Am also of the mind-set that Unique Legendaries should be re-craftable. I would love a system wherein we can obtain a UL skin, and then apply it to a crafted item, just once - especially if there will be lower-level UL's.



  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yeah I agree with the skin being used in recrafting. It's akin to reverse transmog but you should also be able to transmog a unique legendary skin on to a crafted legendary I think.

    I imagine unique legendaries to be like gold medals. If unique legendaries aren't added through updates, I think more will come from expansions. At least there will be multiple sources for unique legendaries than just a sole source.
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  • This thread's probably run it's course. Usually by pages 3 or 4 it's just a slug-fest, am happy this one went the other way. Some good points presented.

    As a closing thought, was initially thinking 60 days, but would now favor 90-120 days of inactivity on behalf of the initial looter before a duplicate UL can drop again. These are all spans of time that feel like a long period of time, when you constantly play an MMORPG.

    Too short of a time devalues the possession of such an item, whereas any longer is probably just un-necessary.

    Will make it my topic-question for the Q&A thread, this Friday.



  • LodrigLodrig Member
    Having read nearly the whole thread I have to say I am extremely disappointed in the level of thought displayed. Nearly all the argumentation and even the initial premise are fundamentally flawed.

    Simply put a character logging out of the game should NEVER for even 1 second remove a legendary item from potential being seized in conflict because the point of such an item is to stimulate conflict, not to provide 'uber pwnage' to the wielder.

    The entire literary genre of 'fantasy legendary items' even prior to Tolkien was all about how greed for these items made having them a curse because their power both morally corrupts the holder but also brings forth a never-ending stream of would-be usurpers that must be beaten back. And one such usurper will inevitably succeed in killing the current owner and take the price for themselves beginning the tragic cycle anew. These items are thus allegorical for the power or royalty itself.

    The proper implementation of a legendary item is for a player equipped with it to be flagged for PvP at all times and for the item to be transported/stored in some kind of armory when not equipped at all other times, with said armory able to be looted if the node or castle it is in is sieged and destroyed.

    The 'player content' that needs to be shared here is the WAR over the item, not the item itself, focusing on how many players and for how long a player is going to equip the item is to miss the forest for the trees.
  • VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
    Quite an interesting and somewhat polarizing question! This thread really popped off, and reading through everyone's opinion on the matter has been quite interesting!

    This is another one of those topics that will be very interesting to revisit during Alpha Two, as well as post-launch, to see how opinions compare to those of today :)
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