Dhaiwon wrote: » You are still somewhat focusing on, or at least describing, meaningful in terms of direct gains/losses. Whereas i'm more thinking in the general term for there to be "a good reason" to fight. As in, not fighting for fighting sake. And yes, as previously stated, direct gains or risk of loss are definitely example of a good reason, but I still think that the difference in focus between that and the more general notion of a good reason could lead to very different games.
Abarat wrote: » Dhaiwon wrote: » You are still somewhat focusing on, or at least describing, meaningful in terms of direct gains/losses. Whereas i'm more thinking in the general term for there to be "a good reason" to fight. As in, not fighting for fighting sake. Can you try to give some examples of what you mean? where there is a "good reason" to fight, but no direct gains/losses?
Dhaiwon wrote: » You are still somewhat focusing on, or at least describing, meaningful in terms of direct gains/losses. Whereas i'm more thinking in the general term for there to be "a good reason" to fight. As in, not fighting for fighting sake.
Raven016 wrote: » Abarat wrote: » Dhaiwon wrote: » You are still somewhat focusing on, or at least describing, meaningful in terms of direct gains/losses. Whereas i'm more thinking in the general term for there to be "a good reason" to fight. As in, not fighting for fighting sake. Can you try to give some examples of what you mean? where there is a "good reason" to fight, but no direct gains/losses? Fighting as a bounty hunter to kill corrupted players because you believe they are evil.
George_Black wrote: » Yall got 0 memory capacity? The reason to fight is to claim the spot which give the best xp, which will lead you to more levels, more ekills, better gear.
Abarat wrote: » Raven016 wrote: » Abarat wrote: » Dhaiwon wrote: » You are still somewhat focusing on, or at least describing, meaningful in terms of direct gains/losses. Whereas i'm more thinking in the general term for there to be "a good reason" to fight. As in, not fighting for fighting sake. Can you try to give some examples of what you mean? where there is a "good reason" to fight, but no direct gains/losses? Fighting as a bounty hunter to kill corrupted players because you believe they are evil. You still get their loot... maybe even an item. I think the "greed" (direct gains) part started when that player wanted to become a bounty hunter. To illustrate: I believe Dygz is a good person and he would fight evil whereever he encountered it for the betterment of all, particularly if that evil was a car salesman (not a real) game developer. He will not, however, seek out corrupted players or become a bounty hunter. But, ok. I agree. This is sort of like discussing altruism. Very few acts are truly altruistic, some benefit is inferred. I think it is the same thing there.. there is always going to be a benefit, loot is just the easiest way to think of it.
Raven016 wrote: » True, reputation is also a benefit or something you can lose.
Abarat wrote: » Raven016 wrote: » True, reputation is also a benefit or something you can lose. I agree and it is one of the reasons I believe open world harassments and ganking will not be as big of a problem as people currently are worried about. Obviously, i am guessing based upon my own understanding of what i have heard/read/seen, but like many here, I am a voracious consumer of Ashes media. Your node is going to know you by name. Bad actors will have difficulty finding help, and it is becoming more and more clear we will all need help from others.
Noaani wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Vyril wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » What PVE am I looking forward to the most? I think world bosses will be fun. But it's hard to say anything will be strictly PVE in this game, since it's focus is PvX. I am mostly looking forward to seeing how well PvP will be incorporated into PvE content and vice versa across all aspects of the game to achieve the best PvX experience. Would you say as somebody looking forward to PvX you enjoy having PvE with risk vs reward? Is the current implementation of risk vs reward appealing to you? I find it funny when people call PvP "risk vs reward". I find it funny that you still dont realize that the risk is "losing a pvp encounter, gaining xp debt, dropping raw mats, spawning back to the nearest village far away, lose morale, lose the raid and perhaps hear the guild complains" and the reward is "you won the pvp encounter, you get the raid, you get to keep leveling grinding getting closer to lv cap/better gear, you become a guild/server legend" over and over again in the owpvp mmo. I find it funny that you think any of this is true. If the risk component of risk vs reward comes from PvP in the most part, then that risk is at best inconsistent - yet the rewards will be the same. In my experience, that PvP presence can range from literally no one attacking you the entire pull (had this on Kraken and Red Dragon in Archeage, both for different reasons), or can make it so the encounter is literally impossible to kill (EQ2 PvP servers - hardest PvP content of any game, literally unkillable). Clearly, there are many points in between these two points - but the real point is the inconsistent nature of the "risk" while the rewards remain the same. I already know this is going to open a big steaming pile of semantics but risk is to incur the CHANCE of unfortunate consequences by engaging in (an action). It's not meant to always be consistent. Sometimes you can get away with it, sometimes you can't. Predictability is the staple of NPCs, while players tend to be much harder to predict. So, it isnt risk vs reward (the idea of being able to increase or decrease the risk you face, while there being an increase or decrease in reward), but rather is a roll of the dice. I'm not saying PvP isnt sometimes going to end up with a loss (50% of the time it will), I'm saying it doesnt fit the core concept of risk vs reward. It can be a risk, for sure, and it can also be rewarding. The problem is, those two aspects are not linked up in any direct way.
Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Vyril wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » What PVE am I looking forward to the most? I think world bosses will be fun. But it's hard to say anything will be strictly PVE in this game, since it's focus is PvX. I am mostly looking forward to seeing how well PvP will be incorporated into PvE content and vice versa across all aspects of the game to achieve the best PvX experience. Would you say as somebody looking forward to PvX you enjoy having PvE with risk vs reward? Is the current implementation of risk vs reward appealing to you? I find it funny when people call PvP "risk vs reward". I find it funny that you still dont realize that the risk is "losing a pvp encounter, gaining xp debt, dropping raw mats, spawning back to the nearest village far away, lose morale, lose the raid and perhaps hear the guild complains" and the reward is "you won the pvp encounter, you get the raid, you get to keep leveling grinding getting closer to lv cap/better gear, you become a guild/server legend" over and over again in the owpvp mmo. I find it funny that you think any of this is true. If the risk component of risk vs reward comes from PvP in the most part, then that risk is at best inconsistent - yet the rewards will be the same. In my experience, that PvP presence can range from literally no one attacking you the entire pull (had this on Kraken and Red Dragon in Archeage, both for different reasons), or can make it so the encounter is literally impossible to kill (EQ2 PvP servers - hardest PvP content of any game, literally unkillable). Clearly, there are many points in between these two points - but the real point is the inconsistent nature of the "risk" while the rewards remain the same. I already know this is going to open a big steaming pile of semantics but risk is to incur the CHANCE of unfortunate consequences by engaging in (an action). It's not meant to always be consistent. Sometimes you can get away with it, sometimes you can't. Predictability is the staple of NPCs, while players tend to be much harder to predict.
Noaani wrote: » George_Black wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Vyril wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » What PVE am I looking forward to the most? I think world bosses will be fun. But it's hard to say anything will be strictly PVE in this game, since it's focus is PvX. I am mostly looking forward to seeing how well PvP will be incorporated into PvE content and vice versa across all aspects of the game to achieve the best PvX experience. Would you say as somebody looking forward to PvX you enjoy having PvE with risk vs reward? Is the current implementation of risk vs reward appealing to you? I find it funny when people call PvP "risk vs reward". I find it funny that you still dont realize that the risk is "losing a pvp encounter, gaining xp debt, dropping raw mats, spawning back to the nearest village far away, lose morale, lose the raid and perhaps hear the guild complains" and the reward is "you won the pvp encounter, you get the raid, you get to keep leveling grinding getting closer to lv cap/better gear, you become a guild/server legend" over and over again in the owpvp mmo. I find it funny that you think any of this is true. If the risk component of risk vs reward comes from PvP in the most part, then that risk is at best inconsistent - yet the rewards will be the same. In my experience, that PvP presence can range from literally no one attacking you the entire pull (had this on Kraken and Red Dragon in Archeage, both for different reasons), or can make it so the encounter is literally impossible to kill (EQ2 PvP servers - hardest PvP content of any game, literally unkillable). Clearly, there are many points in between these two points - but the real point is the inconsistent nature of the "risk" while the rewards remain the same.
George_Black wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Vyril wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » What PVE am I looking forward to the most? I think world bosses will be fun. But it's hard to say anything will be strictly PVE in this game, since it's focus is PvX. I am mostly looking forward to seeing how well PvP will be incorporated into PvE content and vice versa across all aspects of the game to achieve the best PvX experience. Would you say as somebody looking forward to PvX you enjoy having PvE with risk vs reward? Is the current implementation of risk vs reward appealing to you? I find it funny when people call PvP "risk vs reward". I find it funny that you still dont realize that the risk is "losing a pvp encounter, gaining xp debt, dropping raw mats, spawning back to the nearest village far away, lose morale, lose the raid and perhaps hear the guild complains" and the reward is "you won the pvp encounter, you get the raid, you get to keep leveling grinding getting closer to lv cap/better gear, you become a guild/server legend" over and over again in the owpvp mmo.
Noaani wrote: » Vyril wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » What PVE am I looking forward to the most? I think world bosses will be fun. But it's hard to say anything will be strictly PVE in this game, since it's focus is PvX. I am mostly looking forward to seeing how well PvP will be incorporated into PvE content and vice versa across all aspects of the game to achieve the best PvX experience. Would you say as somebody looking forward to PvX you enjoy having PvE with risk vs reward? Is the current implementation of risk vs reward appealing to you? I find it funny when people call PvP "risk vs reward".
Vyril wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » What PVE am I looking forward to the most? I think world bosses will be fun. But it's hard to say anything will be strictly PVE in this game, since it's focus is PvX. I am mostly looking forward to seeing how well PvP will be incorporated into PvE content and vice versa across all aspects of the game to achieve the best PvX experience. Would you say as somebody looking forward to PvX you enjoy having PvE with risk vs reward? Is the current implementation of risk vs reward appealing to you?
Dolyem wrote: » What PVE am I looking forward to the most? I think world bosses will be fun. But it's hard to say anything will be strictly PVE in this game, since it's focus is PvX. I am mostly looking forward to seeing how well PvP will be incorporated into PvE content and vice versa across all aspects of the game to achieve the best PvX experience.
Dygz wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Risk from mobs and NPCs are good enough for me. But, actually, instead of obsessing over Risk v Reward - I wish Steven had kept the original pillar: Meaningful Conflict. Wouldn't this purely be encounter mechanics and mob difficulties? I could see maybe talking about how to identify risks in difficulty of mobs through things like normal NPCs, Rare NPCs, Elites, and bosses. But PvE risk assessment tends to USUALLY be more straightforward in terms of risking death. Maybe start another discussion with new PVE risk suggestions? No. By Meaningful Conflict I'm still talking about incentives to PvP. For example - if I want to complete my Racial progression, but to do so my Race has to to be the dominant Race of a Metro. Where, in this case, the motivator is more meaningful than material greed for uber treasure and resources that other player are carrying in their bags. I'm planning to talk about the difference between Meaningful Conflict and Risk v Reward on The Ashen Forge this Sunday.
Dolyem wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Risk from mobs and NPCs are good enough for me. But, actually, instead of obsessing over Risk v Reward - I wish Steven had kept the original pillar: Meaningful Conflict. Wouldn't this purely be encounter mechanics and mob difficulties? I could see maybe talking about how to identify risks in difficulty of mobs through things like normal NPCs, Rare NPCs, Elites, and bosses. But PvE risk assessment tends to USUALLY be more straightforward in terms of risking death. Maybe start another discussion with new PVE risk suggestions?
Dygz wrote: » Risk from mobs and NPCs are good enough for me. But, actually, instead of obsessing over Risk v Reward - I wish Steven had kept the original pillar: Meaningful Conflict.
Dolyem wrote: » I just feel like "meaningful conflict" is subjective.
Noaani wrote: » So, it isnt risk vs reward (the idea of being able to increase or decrease the risk you face, while there being an increase or decrease in reward), but rather is a roll of the dice.
Abarat wrote: » To illustrate: I believe Dygz is a good person and he would fight evil where ever he encountered it for the betterment of all, particularly if that evil was a car salesman (not a real) game developer. He will not, however, seek out corrupted players or become a bounty hunter.
Dygz wrote: » The EQNext example is that Dark Elves from Serpentspine Mountains are farming Dryads in Kithicor Forest, stealing their Life magic and transmuting it into Shadow magic to power their spells and augment gear and abilities, like Stealth. Players who rely on Shadow magic will go into Kithicor to farm NPC dryads, but the players in Kithicor will want to prevent that because as Life is drained from the region, blight spreads across the land. Unbeknownst to the players, if too much Life energy is drained, eventually the bonds which hold the Shadow Demons at bay will break and they will march across the world devouring anything living...even the Dark Elves should the Shadow Demons encounter them. At that point, it's in the best interest of all the player races, including the Dark Elves, to ally and attempt to imprison the Shadow Demons again. We have enough Daybreak Games devs on the Ashes dev team to expect Ashes Events to be designed in a similar fashion.
Dygz wrote: » Abarat wrote: » To illustrate: I believe Dygz is a good person and he would fight evil where ever he encountered it for the betterment of all, particularly if that evil was a car salesman (not a real) game developer. He will not, however, seek out corrupted players or become a bounty hunter. Haha! Yes! You are very close to hitting the nail on the head. Dygz wrote: » The EQNext example is that Dark Elves from Serpentspine Mountains are farming Dryads in Kithicor Forest, stealing their Life magic and transmuting it into Shadow magic to power their spells and augment gear and abilities, like Stealth. Players who rely on Shadow magic will go into Kithicor to farm NPC dryads, but the players in Kithicor will want to prevent that because as Life is drained from the region, blight spreads across the land. Unbeknownst to the players, if too much Life energy is drained, eventually the bonds which hold the Shadow Demons at bay will break and they will march across the world devouring anything living...even the Dark Elves should the Shadow Demons encounter them. At that point, it's in the best interest of all the player races, including the Dark Elves, to ally and attempt to imprison the Shadow Demons again. We have enough Daybreak Games devs on the Ashes dev team to expect Ashes Events to be designed in a similar fashion. If I'm an Elf Druid, I might need to attack and possibly kill the Dark Elf player syphoning the Dryad's Life energy - not because I love PvP or want some uber loot, but because the loss of Life Energy might awaken the Shadow Demons - who will destroy all life in the region - including the Dark Elves. If I'm the Dark Elf Rogue, I'm really just focused on the PvE to maximize my Stealth. But, since Stealth is crucial to the success of my Exploration endeavors, I might have to kill the Druid player trying to stop me from syphoning Life magic from the Dryads. I wouldn't be consciously motivated to PvP for the sake of competition or Risk v Reward. I'm really motivated by Meaningful Conflict. Having maxed Stealth is meaningful to my Exploration, so I'm gonna do what I need to do to max my Stealth. Same for the Druid. I would rather use diplomacy to convince the Dark Elf player to cease. But, if they don't, I might have to kill them for the greater good of the region. None of that is because I crave the adrenaline rush of combat. Or because fear and competition and winning/losing adds spice to the gameplay. That's the kind of PvP encounter I would prefer to have. Rather than - "Oh! Let me see if that player has a bag for carrying the loot I want to steal."
CROW3 wrote: » Two good examples of PvX @Dygz
Dygz wrote: » CROW3 wrote: » Two good examples of PvX @Dygz That’s not PvX. That is Meaningful Conflict.
Dygz wrote: » A player focused on hunting a player is not really something that the devs design. 🙄
CROW3 wrote: » Or that your PvE goals involve PvP.
