Other than resource management. And making those choices count and be meaningful.
There is no resource management involved sitting outside of combat doing nothing and waiting...
Yes there is. Your power/abilities are gated. You have to make meaningful choices how you apply them.
Please explain now sitting outside of combat to recover hp/ mana / CDS where you don't use abilities or fight has anything to do with meaningful choice....I'l wait...
Please explain now sitting outside of combat to recover hp/ mana / CDS where you don't use abilities or fight has anything to do with meaningful choice....I'l wait...
In that very video.
Steven was fighting a minotaur and popped a blink when already sub 50%, wasting his mana (and time as he was now low mana waiting for in-combat regen after just 1 more spell) and assuring his longer recovery period. His decision mattered to his continued hunting.
Its no different than having a hard time gate... like lay-on-hands or bloodlust.
Making resource decisions to speed up or slow down the process. Sitting being faster than standing and being faster than running is all sound design to resource management and resource recovery. Much like minimal recovery in-combat.
Please explain now sitting outside of combat to recover hp/ mana / CDS where you don't use abilities or fight has anything to do with meaningful choice....I'l wait...
In that very video.
Steven was fighting a minotaur and popped a blink when already sub 50%, wasting his mana (and time as he was now low mana waiting for in-combat regen after just 1 more spell) and assuring his longer recovery period. His decision mattered to his continued hunting.
Its no different than having a hard time gate... like lay-on-hands or bloodlust.
Making resource decisions to speed up or slow down the process. Sitting being faster than standing and being faster than running is all sound design to resource management and resource recovery. Much like minimal recovery in-combat.
You are literally talking about in-combat...
You can't say "Steven is fighting a minotaur" When we are talking about non combat.
Again I'll wait , as the point is NON-combat resting and you saying there is decision making there.
No.
Him casting spells affected how long he had to rest/recover. Regardless when he cast them.
*He could have done it while crafting or sitting in an inn. He still had additional resource recovery time.
I just chose to use the video this entire conversation spawned from... since everyone can see it.
No.
Him casting spells affected how long he had to rest/recover. Regardless when he cast them.
*He could have done it while crafting or sitting in an inn. He still had additional resource recovery time.
I just chose to use the video this entire conversation spawned from... since everyone can see it.
Love that answer "no" when you are refusing to talk about actual resting and only want to talk about combat lmao.
Conclusion there is no resource management while sitting down.
"" assuring his longer recovery period. His decision mattered to his continued hunting.""
I'm just going to repeat again, Conclusion there is no resource management while sitting down. Stop trying to say actions you do in combat are counting for out of combat.
Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover.
The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable.
However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless.
Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right.
I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that.
Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun.
Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally.
Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move.
Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover.
The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable.
However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless.
Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right.
I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that.
Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun.
Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally.
Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move.
We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act.
Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while.
This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go.
On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful.
"" assuring his longer recovery period. His decision mattered to his continued hunting.""
I'm just going to repeat again, Conclusion there is no resource management while sitting down. Stop trying to say actions you do in combat are counting for out of combat.
what if u can sit in combat to regen mana a bit faster? like if you are a support for example ;3
Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover.
The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable.
However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless.
Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right.
I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that.
Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun.
Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally.
Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move.
We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act.
Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while.
This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go.
On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful.
My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss.
It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind.
"" assuring his longer recovery period. His decision mattered to his continued hunting.""
I'm just going to repeat again, Conclusion there is no resource management while sitting down. Stop trying to say actions you do in combat are counting for out of combat.
what if u can sit in combat to regen mana a bit faster? like if you are a support for example ;3
I often try to watch the Devstreams for AoC but don't get to involed or look too deeply as I don't want to spoil to much of the game for myself and just want to look forward to playing it.
However mostly seen in the recent Devstream on Feb 29th I noticed something that rather puts me off and would like some more information and to just give my feedback on, as I can't seem to find any recent information or questions/answers regarding it.
Question: After a big fight or any fight/battle to where your Health/Mana have dropped below say 30% you are now at a point where you need to "sit" and just wait for your Health/Mana to be restored, is this going to be how it is going forward and on release?
I feel this is an old school mechanic and just doesn't fit AoC or many MMORPGs to this day and it's an outdated mechanic.
This is something I saw when I first played Aion Online after it's release and after a single fight/battle of 1-2 mobs I would sit down for 5-10 minutes (everytime) to restore my Health/Mana as Potions were not easy to obtain.
The issue is that I don't see Consumables being used in a fitting way or seem to be a 1 time thing and that's it.
I just don't see the point of this "sitting down" to restore oneself an ideal or fun mechanic.
Example: I just finished a battle/fight and now below 30% Health/Mana now comes along another player and kills me.
Doesn't sound very fun for either side nor does the idea to sit and wait for 5 minutes staring at my screen doing nothing.
I like sitting to restora mana/HP. It gives sociability to the game.
I often try to watch the Devstreams for AoC but don't get to involed or look too deeply as I don't want to spoil to much of the game for myself and just want to look forward to playing it.
However mostly seen in the recent Devstream on Feb 29th I noticed something that rather puts me off and would like some more information and to just give my feedback on, as I can't seem to find any recent information or questions/answers regarding it.
Question: After a big fight or any fight/battle to where your Health/Mana have dropped below say 30% you are now at a point where you need to "sit" and just wait for your Health/Mana to be restored, is this going to be how it is going forward and on release?
I feel this is an old school mechanic and just doesn't fit AoC or many MMORPGs to this day and it's an outdated mechanic.
This is something I saw when I first played Aion Online after it's release and after a single fight/battle of 1-2 mobs I would sit down for 5-10 minutes (everytime) to restore my Health/Mana as Potions were not easy to obtain.
The issue is that I don't see Consumables being used in a fitting way or seem to be a 1 time thing and that's it.
I just don't see the point of this "sitting down" to restore oneself an ideal or fun mechanic.
Example: I just finished a battle/fight and now below 30% Health/Mana now comes along another player and kills me.
Doesn't sound very fun for either side nor does the idea to sit and wait for 5 minutes staring at my screen doing nothing.
I like sitting to restora mana/HP. It gives sociability to the game.
I often try to watch the Devstreams for AoC but don't get to involed or look too deeply as I don't want to spoil to much of the game for myself and just want to look forward to playing it.
However mostly seen in the recent Devstream on Feb 29th I noticed something that rather puts me off and would like some more information and to just give my feedback on, as I can't seem to find any recent information or questions/answers regarding it.
Question: After a big fight or any fight/battle to where your Health/Mana have dropped below say 30% you are now at a point where you need to "sit" and just wait for your Health/Mana to be restored, is this going to be how it is going forward and on release?
I feel this is an old school mechanic and just doesn't fit AoC or many MMORPGs to this day and it's an outdated mechanic.
This is something I saw when I first played Aion Online after it's release and after a single fight/battle of 1-2 mobs I would sit down for 5-10 minutes (everytime) to restore my Health/Mana as Potions were not easy to obtain.
The issue is that I don't see Consumables being used in a fitting way or seem to be a 1 time thing and that's it.
I just don't see the point of this "sitting down" to restore oneself an ideal or fun mechanic.
Example: I just finished a battle/fight and now below 30% Health/Mana now comes along another player and kills me.
Doesn't sound very fun for either side nor does the idea to sit and wait for 5 minutes staring at my screen doing nothing.
I like sitting to restora mana/HP. It gives sociability to the game.
Since I realized my last post didn't give any input on this part, I can agree here. The design type that leads to 'resting for MP' in a group that is actually pushing hard against something is a good thing to me. The 'resting for MP after perfectly using it all to advance' gives a good time for chat/strat adjustments.
Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover.
The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable.
However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless.
Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right.
I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that.
Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun.
Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally.
Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move.
We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act.
Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while.
This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go.
On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful.
My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss.
It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind.
So if I'm understanding your perspective correctly, you think that down time should exist. You just worry that it will be taken too far. If that is the case, then we are on the same page.
What I am considering good would be something like this:
1 - I arrive in an area with a lot of spread out mobs that are around my lvl
2 - I engage a couple of them, since I think i can handle them alone.
3 - After defeating both of them, I'm about half health and half mana
4 - I still have all my more powerful cooldowns left so I take on another 2.
5 - about halfway through, another 2 mobs surprise me and wander in
6 - I'm surviving but I need to start using some of my long cooldowns
7 - Eventually I manage to take them out, but by now all my major cooldowns are gone, I've used a number of consumables and my mana and health are nearly gone.
8 - It's going to take time to recover my health and mana and it's a bit dangerous to re-engage until some of my abilities come back online so I go off to the side, and for 10 to 15 seconds I recover and get ready to go back in.
As long as I'm taking on a reasonable number of mobs at a reasonable pace, I'm good, the game will allow me to continue. But the moment I take on too much, or don't pay attention, I am forced to eventually stop. In this way my reward for managing agro and paying attention (not to mention learning the best way to defeat specific enemies) is continued gameplay. My punishment for taking on too much or not knowing my enemies is to be forced to stop playing and recover.
This is an example of an area where it's safe to solo. Obviously in a group centered area the mobs may have this effect on the whole group. Its not a perfect example, but this is the sort of loop I'd like to see.
Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover.
The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable.
However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless.
Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right.
I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that.
Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun.
Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally.
Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move.
We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act.
Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while.
This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go.
On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful.
My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss.
It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind.
So if I'm understanding your perspective correctly, you think that down time should exist. You just worry that it will be taken too far. If that is the case, then we are on the same page.
What I am considering good would be something like this:
1 - I arrive in an area with a lot of spread out mobs that are around my lvl
2 - I engage a couple of them, since I think i can handle them alone.
3 - After defeating both of them, I'm about half health and half mana
4 - I still have all my more powerful cooldowns left so I take on another 2.
5 - about halfway through, another 2 mobs surprise me and wander in
6 - I'm surviving but I need to start using some of my long cooldowns
7 - Eventually I manage to take them out, but by now all my major cooldowns are gone, I've used a number of consumables and my mana and health are nearly gone.
8 - It's going to take time to recover my health and mana and it's a bit dangerous to re-engage until some of my abilities come back online so I go off to the side, and for 10 to 15 seconds I recover and get ready to go back in.
As long as I'm taking on a reasonable number of mobs at a reasonable pace, I'm good, the game will allow me to continue. But the moment I take on too much, or don't pay attention, I am forced to eventually stop. In this way my reward for managing agro and paying attention (not to mention learning the best way to defeat specific enemies) is continued gameplay. My punishment for taking on too much or not knowing my enemies is to be forced to stop playing and recover.
This is an example of an area where it's safe to solo. Obviously in a group centered area the mobs may have this effect on the whole group. Its not a perfect example, but this is the sort of loop I'd like to see.
Ya pretty much that, when i hear people want extended down time for 20-30 seconds every few fights.
Doesn't need to be an exact rule on amount or anything it could be resting for 5-10 seconds, it could be 15 if you were almost dead. It doesn't mean the latter is extremely common if you know what you are doing.
My issue will always be if you do a few fights (not even talking about difficult ones) and than u need to wait every second and you start to feel the repetition as a standard.
Let the content be what makes people take longer pauses to set up their fights, planning and encounters, as they talk about it and think. Not artificial increasing the pause from needing to rest for like 30 seconds. Though if your part wipes and you need rezzes that could be a much longer pause i don't really care about time frame be it 5 min -15 min. That is the side I'm on it being longer pretty much.
Let the content be what makes people take longer pauses to set up their fights, planning and encounters, as they talk about it and think. Not artificial increasing the pause from needing to rest for like 30 seconds. Though if your part wipes and you need rezzes that could be a much longer pause i don't really care about time frame be it 5 min -15 min. That is the side I'm on it being longer pretty much.
So you literally agree with me, but you've chosen to see my comments as something that they are not.
I dunno if you remember, but in almost every damn mob farming discussion I'm one of the people asking for super difficult pve. I want the pve content to push people to the fucking edge in every damn fight. And I want dungeon pve to be even harder on the entire party.
And all of that would be outside of the pvp part of the pvx.
And the regen outside of combat is there to create an even further challenge to the whole setup. If you spend your entire mana (and maybe even quite a bit of hp) fighting a bit too many mobs at the same time - you're fucked if someone comes to fight you. And you're just as fucked if you don't properly regen between pulls, exactly because someone could come in the middle of your pveing and mess you up in several ways.
As for the time of sitting, I don't think I ever put a number on that. I simply said that you'd sit after every huge pull, where you spent all of your mana. The sitting part was there exactly to speed up the regen process, because sitting boosted your regen. You could always run somewhere if you wanted to, but you'd regen slower.
Your entire party sitting down would also mean that you'd take even just a few extra seconds regrouping if another party came to your farming spot, so they might get a drop on you (especially if you weren't at full resources).
Out-of-combat regen also directly influences how fast the mob respawns are, because if you can regen from 0% to 100% momentarily - mobs better be ready for you to go farm them again, otherwise people like you will complain that there's not enough content to clear and you have to stand around waiting for it. Faster respawns influences drop rate values, because if there's a ton of mobs - you gotta have lower rates, otherwise the entire economy shifts or has to be controlled in a different way. Low rates influence how people see the game, because, while some people like me love to grind stuff for that sweet sweet 0.001% drop chance, majority of people just wanna have fun and get rewarded for it, so having lower rates because you have a ton of mobs would be seen as a bad design.
All of this is the stuff I'm considering when I say what I say. You keep saying that others don't consider other parts of the game when they give feedback, but I feel like you're just projecting, because it's you who usually doesn't go too deep into such considerations. And when others point out their thought process you literally tell them "not to overcomplicate things".
First off the discussion for me is a time thing against comments that are trying to say you need to be sitting down for 20 seconds +.
Second if you are making a argument that people are burning through mobs so they need to artificially slow people down because there is not enough content in the world to support players. That is not a good artificial buffer. Making the mobs more difficult and stronger is a better way to deal with that if that are that easy to deal with on top of the pvx threat.
Third if you are making any kind of point on ganking people because they need to sit down or they have low mana sot hey can't win I don't agree with that. If you are getting ganked you shouldn't be at even more of a disadvantage.
You are making a argument on the game having bad elements and your solutions is to not allow people to play by artificially increasing resting rate rather than dealing with the actual root f the issue. Also if you are killing more mobs and rates need to be lowered to balance that out that is a fine solution to me as well anyway.
I feel you are looking at this as L2 with easy mob farming, I'm unsure of the reality of how the game is going to fully turn out but if the mobs are that easy people just blitz through everything, forcing people to slow down by sitting for extended amounts of time isn't really a fix.
I go into deep consideration, its why in some of our past discussions I point out exactly the different elements of the game and players, you are the one that doesn't do that. I can easily reference different points in other discussions I've talked about with consideration for the design.... In this case you are making an attempt, and I'm simply pointing out the flaw in your point which is how discussion should be. Not I want something just because i want it.
Boiling it down, your consideration is there isn't enough content or to reduce how much players get by forcing them to rest and have to wait before doing more content. Which this has other issues as well when you bring up different group compositions. (Which you can help reduce that issue by just allowing people to play the game and not forced to rest for "long" periods of time added up.)
Let the difficulty of content be what holds players back, though that doesn't mean there isn't easier stuff out there that can be farmed more quickly for less rewards.
So we definitely again don't agree, if there isn't enough content for the player base they will have to do other solutions.
Second if you are making a argument that people are burning through mobs so they need to artificially slow people down because there is not enough content in the world to support players. That is not a good artificial buffer. Making the mobs more difficult and stronger is a better way to deal with that if that are that easy to deal with on top of the pvx threat.
Now you're the one talking about combat, when the discussion is about out-of-combat regen
It doesn't matter how long a single mob takes to get killed, because we're talking about the time between mobs.
This suggestion also doesn't take into the account how many mobs are in the vicinity and how big the radius of their aggro is. If a whole party can only pull 1-2 mobs, because they're super difficult, that means that any more mobs would either wipe the party or make it super super difficult to survive. This in turn means that even large locations would only have a few mobs in them, so that people can at least farm said mobs w/o wiping on every other one.
Large locations with very few mobs means that soft friction becomes even more aggressive, because there's barely any content left for newcomers to the location. This in turn increases the danger of any mob, because you gotta keep more resources present in case any players decide to steal it or weaken you against it.
And in cases where everyone agrees not to attack each other, we come back to the discussion of "farming a spot vs running around". If your party comes to a dungeon w/ 0 desire to pvp others, but all mobs are literally taken by other parties - you'll have to go to another dungeon. Now not only your goals for the day completely shifted, but you've also wasted limit playtime (especially if you checked the entire dungeon-worth of rooms).
The balance of this situation is razor-thin and imo making people sit for half a minute in-between pulls creates a more interesting friction situation. The mobs could respawn right before the party regens to full, so any passersby could try going for them, while the og group would argue that this spot was theirs already. The content is present, but it has now become a full pvx situation rather than one or the other.
And this is pretty much how quite a lot of situations in L2 went down in my experience. Which is exactly why I'm giving feedback that matches those situations, because I believe that they're the best setup for a pvx game, because this setup is exactly why I liked L2's pvx.
Third if you are making any kind of point on ganking people because they need to sit down or they have low mana sot hey can't win I don't agree with that. If you are getting ganked you shouldn't be at even more of a disadvantage.
This is the risk/reward of the situation. Do you pull a weaker mob/group just so that you remain at higher resource values in case the location is super active and there's a ton of people, or do you go all out and clear more pve because you believe that no one else will come while you're regening.
To me, these kinds of considerations are the interesting part of pvx.
I feel you are looking at this as L2 with easy mob farming, I'm unsure of the reality of how the game is going to fully turn out but if the mobs are that easy people just blitz through everything, forcing people to slow down by sitting for extended amounts of time isn't really a fix.
Yes, of course, which is exactly why I've been saying that I want pve that's much harder than L2's, because that is OBVIOUSLY the exact same thing as L2 had. You are literally responding to a comment that says "I want super hard pve", yet you still bring this up.
So we definitely again don't agree, if there isn't enough content for the player base they will have to do other solutions.
I'd be interested in hearing what exactly would those solutions look like in your opinion, cause there's 2 Noaani options of "just have more game" and "have instances", there's mine of "balance out regening better', there's the obvious "this game is not for you, so go fight for those mobs" - so what does your solution look like? Or do you not know and simply hope that Intrepid will come up with some absolutely new way to have both the exciting and thrilling pvx and enough content for everyone at all times (which kinda remove the thrill and excite from that pvx imo).
Second if you are making a argument that people are burning through mobs so they need to artificially slow people down because there is not enough content in the world to support players. That is not a good artificial buffer. Making the mobs more difficult and stronger is a better way to deal with that if that are that easy to deal with on top of the pvx threat.
Now you're the one talking about combat, when the discussion is about out-of-combat regen
It doesn't matter how long a single mob takes to get killed, because we're talking about the time between mobs.
This suggestion also doesn't take into the account how many mobs are in the vicinity and how big the radius of their aggro is. If a whole party can only pull 1-2 mobs, because they're super difficult, that means that any more mobs would either wipe the party or make it super super difficult to survive. This in turn means that even large locations would only have a few mobs in them, so that people can at least farm said mobs w/o wiping on every other one.
Large locations with very few mobs means that soft friction becomes even more aggressive, because there's barely any content left for newcomers to the location. This in turn increases the danger of any mob, because you gotta keep more resources present in case any players decide to steal it or weaken you against it.
And in cases where everyone agrees not to attack each other, we come back to the discussion of "farming a spot vs running around". If your party comes to a dungeon w/ 0 desire to pvp others, but all mobs are literally taken by other parties - you'll have to go to another dungeon. Now not only your goals for the day completely shifted, but you've also wasted limit playtime (especially if you checked the entire dungeon-worth of rooms).
The balance of this situation is razor-thin and imo making people sit for half a minute in-between pulls creates a more interesting friction situation. The mobs could respawn right before the party regens to full, so any passersby could try going for them, while the og group would argue that this spot was theirs already. The content is present, but it has now become a full pvx situation rather than one or the other.
And this is pretty much how quite a lot of situations in L2 went down in my experience. Which is exactly why I'm giving feedback that matches those situations, because I believe that they're the best setup for a pvx game, because this setup is exactly why I liked L2's pvx.
Third if you are making any kind of point on ganking people because they need to sit down or they have low mana sot hey can't win I don't agree with that. If you are getting ganked you shouldn't be at even more of a disadvantage.
This is the risk/reward of the situation. Do you pull a weaker mob/group just so that you remain at higher resource values in case the location is super active and there's a ton of people, or do you go all out and clear more pve because you believe that no one else will come while you're regening.
To me, these kinds of considerations are the interesting part of pvx.
I feel you are looking at this as L2 with easy mob farming, I'm unsure of the reality of how the game is going to fully turn out but if the mobs are that easy people just blitz through everything, forcing people to slow down by sitting for extended amounts of time isn't really a fix.
Yes, of course, which is exactly why I've been saying that I want pve that's much harder than L2's, because that is OBVIOUSLY the exact same thing as L2 had. You are literally responding to a comment that says "I want super hard pve", yet you still bring this up.
So we definitely again don't agree, if there isn't enough content for the player base they will have to do other solutions.
I'd be interested in hearing what exactly would those solutions look like in your opinion, cause there's 2 Noaani options of "just have more game" and "have instances", there's mine of "balance out regening better', there's the obvious "this game is not for you, so go fight for those mobs" - so what does your solution look like? Or do you not know and simply hope that Intrepid will come up with some absolutely new way to have both the exciting and thrilling pvx and enough content for everyone at all times (which kinda remove the thrill and excite from that pvx imo).
My stance is the same on non-combat elements, if you start talking about other gameplay elements im going to comment on it in context.
I see a lot of comments on here in relation to resource management in combat, however that works is fine but there isn't really a connection between resting for 30 seconds+ in any kind of management as its down time and you aren't doing anything.
It doesn't create soft friction you are imagining elements that I don't see int he game working in some certain way to give you positive affirmation for your thought. Arguing about who's spot is who's isn't really relevant in this conversation. I could come up with a ton of reasons why people fight over spots which no link in resource management is present...
IF you are in a pvp situation you are going to be focused on killing players and not farming mobs. If pvp is wait for someone to go kill mobs then watch them sit to gank that isn't going to paint a great picture. Letting things lean more towards the sider of a ganker isn't really competitive pvp, both sides should have a chance to fight back even more so with the corruption system. So les chance for people to default with the mind set let them get corrupted and don't fight back. IE if your team has low mana you decide to take the loss with some members and just come back after to kill the corrupted players since you can't win.
Your mind set seems a lot more leaning on the unfair side of pvp in what you want from PvX in relationship to resting, imo.
Personally I'd rather people not be struggling and be able to respond to people and not be on crutches because they did a pve encounter / in middle of one and have limited resources. You are double the factor of their resources, ways classes might be able to reduce their resources in a gank, the pve mobs and them being pvped.
I have no issues with grinding, whatever the game needs you to do to be competitive is what I do. My issue off topic wise will always being able to gamble your gear.
I bring it up the pve because you say one thing you some of your points don't feel towards that vibe. Ie struggling with resources from a few pulls and feeling good PvX situations in relations to the ganks. Running out of mana makes you feel like you can't do anything, losing hp is one thing but there should be a good buffer where people should be able to respond. Unless they are being unreasonable in very heavy pulls (which shouldn't be the basis for the conversation, it should be what the norm is for people. Not on the assumption they are doing light or heavy pulls but the average that is expected).
That depends on the level, and hard for me to judge as a consumer without knowing their plans and how it will play out or their goal. If it isn't that bad you can up the spawns based on player activity in areas from multiple factors including the amount of mobs being killed.
If the issue is more there is not enough land space for all the players to give them content and people have nothing to do or are forced to pvp 24/7. Than instances or shards is the other solution.
It all depends on the severity of the issue in the eyes of the developers and players while keeping a heathy server count. This is going to be test in alpha 2 more than anything..
Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover.
The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable.
However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless.
Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right.
I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that.
Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun.
Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally.
Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move.
We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act.
Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while.
This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go.
On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful.
My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss.
It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind.
So if I'm understanding your perspective correctly, you think that down time should exist. You just worry that it will be taken too far. If that is the case, then we are on the same page.
What I am considering good would be something like this:
1 - I arrive in an area with a lot of spread out mobs that are around my lvl
2 - I engage a couple of them, since I think i can handle them alone.
3 - After defeating both of them, I'm about half health and half mana
4 - I still have all my more powerful cooldowns left so I take on another 2.
5 - about halfway through, another 2 mobs surprise me and wander in
6 - I'm surviving but I need to start using some of my long cooldowns
7 - Eventually I manage to take them out, but by now all my major cooldowns are gone, I've used a number of consumables and my mana and health are nearly gone.
8 - It's going to take time to recover my health and mana and it's a bit dangerous to re-engage until some of my abilities come back online so I go off to the side, and for 10 to 15 seconds I recover and get ready to go back in.
As long as I'm taking on a reasonable number of mobs at a reasonable pace, I'm good, the game will allow me to continue. But the moment I take on too much, or don't pay attention, I am forced to eventually stop. In this way my reward for managing agro and paying attention (not to mention learning the best way to defeat specific enemies) is continued gameplay. My punishment for taking on too much or not knowing my enemies is to be forced to stop playing and recover.
This is an example of an area where it's safe to solo. Obviously in a group centered area the mobs may have this effect on the whole group. Its not a perfect example, but this is the sort of loop I'd like to see.
what if you already know how many mobs you can take at a time, and you can manage aggro perfectly so you never have to fight more than what you can take. should you be able to keep fighting mobs one by one indefinitely or maybe after 5 mins should you need to sit down for a min or two to recover even if you havent overpulled or used any cooldowns?
IF you are in a pvp situation you are going to be focused on killing players and not farming mobs. If pvp is wait for someone to go kill mobs then watch them sit to gank that isn't going to paint a great picture. Letting things lean more towards the sider of a ganker isn't really competitive pvp, both sides should have a chance to fight back even more so with the corruption system. So les chance for people to default with the mind set let them get corrupted and don't fight back. IE if your team has low mana you decide to take the loss with some members and just come back after to kill the corrupted players since you can't win.
It's precisely because I the corruption system in mind that I support sitting down.
Only a fraction of a fraction of players would be fine going Red in a dungeon. So majority of people wouldn't try to kill someone who's sitting on their ass and regening. But quite a lot of people would be completely fine flagging up on someone who's fighting hardcore mobs, because reducing players' hp would make it easier for mobs to kill them.
Now tell me, what situation would make it easier to do what I described above:
players can farm mobs non-stop forever
players have to take small breaks between pulls
As I see it, it's the first situation that's more beneficial to gankers and bullies. In the second situation the newcomers would either go to the next room (because this one is "taken") or they'd start fighting mobs themselves. And you know who'd benefit from them doing that? The OG party, because now they are the ones who'll have more resources (cause they'd regen up, while the newcomers are fighting) and they'd have the advantage of the mob threat.
And of course there's the option that newcomers just wait till the OGs start fighting mobs and only then start flagging up, but then it's on the OGs to realize this possibility and address it accordingly.
Like I said, this design creates more interesting and thrilling pvx situations.
Unless they are being unreasonable in very heavy pulls (which shouldn't be the basis for the conversation, it should be what the norm is for people. Not on the assumption they are doing light or heavy pulls but the average that is expected).
So we once again come to a point where I want harder pve than you. The "average" should already be a super hard encounter imo, so only the strongest (or dumbest) groups would be overpulling.
So right now it seems you not only want a more pver-friendly game, but also an easier game, than what I'd prefer.
If the issue is more there is not enough land space for all the players to give them content and people have nothing to do or are forced to pvp 24/7. Than instances or shards is the other solution.
So you'd be fine with the game's design changing WAAAAAAY fucking more simply because you don't want to sit for a few seconds between pulls? I mean, if that's your opinion that's completely fine. But I'd rather have what Steven promised us, and imo a good balance of out-of-combat regen and mob respawn would do precisely that.
IF you are in a pvp situation you are going to be focused on killing players and not farming mobs. If pvp is wait for someone to go kill mobs then watch them sit to gank that isn't going to paint a great picture. Letting things lean more towards the sider of a ganker isn't really competitive pvp, both sides should have a chance to fight back even more so with the corruption system. So les chance for people to default with the mind set let them get corrupted and don't fight back. IE if your team has low mana you decide to take the loss with some members and just come back after to kill the corrupted players since you can't win.
It's precisely because I the corruption system in mind that I support sitting down.
Only a fraction of a fraction of players would be fine going Red in a dungeon. So majority of people wouldn't try to kill someone who's sitting on their ass and regening. But quite a lot of people would be completely fine flagging up on someone who's fighting hardcore mobs, because reducing players' hp would make it easier for mobs to kill them.
Now tell me, what situation would make it easier to do what I described above:
players can farm mobs non-stop forever
players have to take small breaks between pulls
As I see it, it's the first situation that's more beneficial to gankers and bullies. In the second situation the newcomers would either go to the next room (because this one is "taken") or they'd start fighting mobs themselves. And you know who'd benefit from them doing that? The OG party, because now they are the ones who'll have more resources (cause they'd regen up, while the newcomers are fighting) and they'd have the advantage of the mob threat.
And of course there's the option that newcomers just wait till the OGs start fighting mobs and only then start flagging up, but then it's on the OGs to realize this possibility and address it accordingly.
Like I said, this design creates more interesting and thrilling pvx situations.
Unless they are being unreasonable in very heavy pulls (which shouldn't be the basis for the conversation, it should be what the norm is for people. Not on the assumption they are doing light or heavy pulls but the average that is expected).
So we once again come to a point where I want harder pve than you. The "average" should already be a super hard encounter imo, so only the strongest (or dumbest) groups would be overpulling.
So right now it seems you not only want a more pver-friendly game, but also an easier game, than what I'd prefer.
If the issue is more there is not enough land space for all the players to give them content and people have nothing to do or are forced to pvp 24/7. Than instances or shards is the other solution.
So you'd be fine with the game's design changing WAAAAAAY fucking more simply because you don't want to sit for a few seconds between pulls? I mean, if that's your opinion that's completely fine. But I'd rather have what Steven promised us, and imo a good balance of out-of-combat regen and mob respawn would do precisely that.
Unsure what you are trying to get at here if people are fighting mobs people are more likely to attack them? That doesn't erase the point of if you aren't moving you are a easy target and it tells a group you are low on resources so it is a easy pk still? Both the same result when the player dies.
This question doesn't really matter because if you plan to pk someone you will pick whatever situation is the best for you based on how the game works. It makes no difference if you rest more often or not so that line of thought doesn't really work. If ganking you when you are fighting mobs is the best way to get loot, I just wait till your next pull??? So resting or not doesn't change anything for the ganker.
Also can you quote me where i said players can farm mobs non-stop, you are exaggerating my points. I said you don't need to be afk 30 seconds every few pulls, as that time is ridiculous and having your resting time get a 50% buff would be in the right spot.
As well as the mob difficulty should be what increases the duration of fight (im not just talking about sponge heavy mobs).
Again your idea of PvX and my idea seem quite far apart. You are trying to say its thrilling because as you were resting a group went head of you and now you can gank them? This doesn't really say much to me in terms of content or anything interesting. Its just normal pvp where you can win a fight because they are weakened with limited resources Its really nothing special to write home about.... Now if both groups know they were farming a dungeon with expectation of fighting each other that is a much better vibe. There would be ways to take that to a much higher level but that would get into another conversation.
You really don't need to add extended forced resting for that kind of pvp situation either. The same result happens without it.
So we once again come to a point where I want harder pve than you. The "average" should already be a super hard encounter imo, so only the strongest (or dumbest) groups would be overpulling.
So right now it seems you not only want a more pver-friendly game, but also an easier game, than what I'd prefer.
You are killing me with this you are taking my whole point out of context and adjusting it to fit a different mental image in your mind so you can feel right about what you are saying.
It is really hard to talk about these design elements with you sometimes. So if you were to take what i said and mix it what you are trying to say here, you want harder "PvE" than me because you want every encounter to be on the same level of the hardest raid and that is how the game should be balanced around for all forms of content.
I feel like you are trying to really just flex here to trying to say you want harder content than me, but i feel you don't know what you want because you are trying to say a PvX ganking encounter is thrilling pvx???
Also unsure how you get to say i want a more pve friendly game when the whole point is so both groups have a more competitive edge against each other in pvp. Again this feels like it comes down to what you feel is thrilling "PvX" content skewing your opinion. Personally as a pvper i don't find it thrilling i see it as a perfect way to take advantage and win a fight easily without a issue. I don't want teams pools to be so small that they feel a issue from a gank, I want people to be able to fight and not feel like they are in crutches.
As much it can benefit me to gank, when you get ganked its easily rough against you and its better to have more of a fair shot before you die, or to be able to do something atleast and not be half drained from one pull and needing to be vulnerable sitting down constantly on top of it. Both situations someone will happily gank players.
So you'd be fine with the game's design changing WAAAAAAY fucking more simply because you don't want to sit for a few seconds between pulls? I mean, if that's your opinion that's completely fine. But I'd rather have what Steven promised us, and imo a good balance of out-of-combat regen and mob respawn would do precisely that.
Will do extra focus on this one as well....Why are you trying to take everything out of context again? You asked for solutions I gave you some based on the level of severity that can be taken. That means if its not that bad they have solutions, and if its really bad there are other major solutions that can be taken.
There is not a bias to what they should go with I'm outline from not a big issue to it feels game breaking for players.
honestly its kind of a joke you thinking reduced resting time makes all the mobs spawn suddenly. This goes to you saying things but not actually understanding the overall influence / planning.
As i said in my examples on increasing rates, if the issue is really 15 seconds of extra rest time, you have mobs spawn 15-30 seconds faster.....no extended rest time needed, why is that so hard to understand?
Unsure what you are trying to get at here if people are fighting mobs people are more likely to attack them? That doesn't erase the point of if you aren't moving you are a easy target and it tells a group you are low on resources so it is a easy pk still? Both the same result when the player dies.
This question doesn't really matter because if you plan to pk someone you will pick whatever situation is the best for you based on how the game works. It makes no difference if you rest more often or not so that line of thought doesn't really work. If ganking you when you are fighting mobs is the best way to get loot, I just wait till your next pull??? So resting or not doesn't change anything for the ganker.
The entire point is to avoid PKing. Mobs allow you to do that.
If both groups are just standing around not touching each other or the mobs - they're both wasting time, and one group would have to cave in first and either flag up first or start farming mobs first. The decision making required is what I find thrilling.
Also can you quote me where i said players can farm mobs non-stop, you are exaggerating my points. I said you don't need to be afk 30 seconds every few pulls, as that time is ridiculous and having your resting time get a 50% buff would be in the right spot.
And I didn't say that we gotta sit for minutes on end.
I expect different archetypes to have different regen values, which means that a full group would have to wait for the slowest regener or, if we have mana restoration abilities - the mana support will have to re-up everyone. And this kinda ties back to what Depraved said, where a support might be still sitting and regening even if the group is in combat.
30s would probably be the upper limit of mana regen time for me, and this would probably be either on the tank or on the fighter.
Again your idea of PvX and my idea seem quite far apart. You are trying to say its thrilling because as you were resting a group went head of you and now you can gank them? This doesn't really say much to me in terms of content or anything interesting. Its just normal pvp where you can win a fight because they are weakened with limited resources Its really nothing special to write home about.... Now if both groups know they were farming a dungeon with expectation of fighting each other that is a much better vibe. There would be ways to take that to a much higher level but that would get into another conversation.
Yes, to me, PvX can only happen when both players and mobs are involved. Everything else is either pve or pvp. So if the pve is hardcore, it means that getting attacked by players while you're pveing is risky as hell.
And anything I say is always in the context of pvx, unless stated otherwise, so imo anyone who goes into a dungeon should expect pvx by default, so the last part of this quote wouldn't have more complexity than what I said, because that consideration is the literal base lvl of understanding in a pvx game.
Also unsure how you get to say i want a more pve friendly game when the whole point is so both groups have a more competitive edge against each other in pvp. Again this feels like it comes down to what you feel is thrilling "PvX" content skewing your opinion. Personally as a pvper i don't find it thrilling i see it as a perfect way to take advantage and win a fight easily without a issue. I don't want teams pools to be so small that they feel a issue from a gank, I want people to be able to fight and not feel like they are in crutches.
Which is precisely my point. You're a pvper, while I'm a pvxer. You want to just pvp with some mobs as a backdrop, I want to pvx with both hardcore mobs and hardcore players. And I want the game to be designed in a way where that is not only possible, but is also the optimal way to play. And I've been saying this in pretty much every pve/pvx discussion.
As much it can benefit me to gank, when you get ganked its easily rough against you and its better to have more of a fair shot before you die, or to be able to do something atleast and not be half drained from one pull and needing to be vulnerable sitting down constantly on top of it. Both situations someone will happily gank players.
To me THIS is what a korean mmo sounds like. This sounds like L2 or BDO or some other stuff from the east. I want a better game than this, where pve is still challenging on its own, but players have the tools to not immediately die if that challenging pve becomes hardcore pvx.
As i said in my examples on increasing rates, if the issue is really 15 seconds of extra rest time, you have mobs spawn 15-30 seconds faster.....no extended rest time needed, why is that so hard to understand?
I already explained what I think would happen if mobs spawned faster.
And also to clarify, I'm fine with faster spawns in easy solo locations because I'd expect those mobs to barely have any valuable loot, so having more content for solo players to train their gameplay on is good. But as soon as you go to farm something more valuable - it should be hard and it should have a respawn timer appropriate to the regen values of those who'll supposedly be farming it (which is why I said that balancing this ratio well is very difficult).
Comments
Yes there is. Your power/abilities are gated. You have to make meaningful choices how you apply them.
Please explain now sitting outside of combat to recover hp/ mana / CDS where you don't use abilities or fight has anything to do with meaningful choice....I'l wait...
Steven was fighting a minotaur and popped a blink when already sub 50%, wasting his mana (and time as he was now low mana waiting for in-combat regen after just 1 more spell) and assuring his longer recovery period. His decision mattered to his continued hunting.
Its no different than having a hard time gate... like lay-on-hands or bloodlust.
Making resource decisions to speed up or slow down the process. Sitting being faster than standing and being faster than running is all sound design to resource management and resource recovery. Much like minimal recovery in-combat.
You are literally talking about in-combat...
You can't say "Steven is fighting a minotaur" When we are talking about non combat.
Again I'll wait , as the point is NON-combat resting and you saying there is decision making there.
Him casting spells affected how long he had to rest/recover. Regardless when he cast them.
*He could have done it while crafting or sitting in an inn. He still had additional resource recovery time.
I just chose to use the video this entire conversation spawned from... since everyone can see it.
Love that answer "no" when you are refusing to talk about actual resting and only want to talk about combat lmao.
Conclusion there is no resource management while sitting down.
I'm just going to repeat again, Conclusion there is no resource management while sitting down. Stop trying to say actions you do in combat are counting for out of combat.
The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable.
However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless.
Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right.
I enjoy the having to recover after multiple, or prolonged fights.
Sitting to recover for 30-45secs, if in solo play gets me back going for 5+ mins.
I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that.
Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun.
Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally.
Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move.
We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act.
Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while.
This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go.
On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful.
what if u can sit in combat to regen mana a bit faster? like if you are a support for example ;3
My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss.
It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind.
X_X
I like sitting to restora mana/HP. It gives sociability to the game.
Since I realized my last post didn't give any input on this part, I can agree here. The design type that leads to 'resting for MP' in a group that is actually pushing hard against something is a good thing to me. The 'resting for MP after perfectly using it all to advance' gives a good time for chat/strat adjustments.
So if I'm understanding your perspective correctly, you think that down time should exist. You just worry that it will be taken too far. If that is the case, then we are on the same page.
What I am considering good would be something like this:
1 - I arrive in an area with a lot of spread out mobs that are around my lvl
2 - I engage a couple of them, since I think i can handle them alone.
3 - After defeating both of them, I'm about half health and half mana
4 - I still have all my more powerful cooldowns left so I take on another 2.
5 - about halfway through, another 2 mobs surprise me and wander in
6 - I'm surviving but I need to start using some of my long cooldowns
7 - Eventually I manage to take them out, but by now all my major cooldowns are gone, I've used a number of consumables and my mana and health are nearly gone.
8 - It's going to take time to recover my health and mana and it's a bit dangerous to re-engage until some of my abilities come back online so I go off to the side, and for 10 to 15 seconds I recover and get ready to go back in.
As long as I'm taking on a reasonable number of mobs at a reasonable pace, I'm good, the game will allow me to continue. But the moment I take on too much, or don't pay attention, I am forced to eventually stop. In this way my reward for managing agro and paying attention (not to mention learning the best way to defeat specific enemies) is continued gameplay. My punishment for taking on too much or not knowing my enemies is to be forced to stop playing and recover.
This is an example of an area where it's safe to solo. Obviously in a group centered area the mobs may have this effect on the whole group. Its not a perfect example, but this is the sort of loop I'd like to see.
Ya pretty much that, when i hear people want extended down time for 20-30 seconds every few fights.
Doesn't need to be an exact rule on amount or anything it could be resting for 5-10 seconds, it could be 15 if you were almost dead. It doesn't mean the latter is extremely common if you know what you are doing.
My issue will always be if you do a few fights (not even talking about difficult ones) and than u need to wait every second and you start to feel the repetition as a standard.
Let the content be what makes people take longer pauses to set up their fights, planning and encounters, as they talk about it and think. Not artificial increasing the pause from needing to rest for like 30 seconds. Though if your part wipes and you need rezzes that could be a much longer pause i don't really care about time frame be it 5 min -15 min. That is the side I'm on it being longer pretty much.
I dunno if you remember, but in almost every damn mob farming discussion I'm one of the people asking for super difficult pve. I want the pve content to push people to the fucking edge in every damn fight. And I want dungeon pve to be even harder on the entire party.
And all of that would be outside of the pvp part of the pvx.
And the regen outside of combat is there to create an even further challenge to the whole setup. If you spend your entire mana (and maybe even quite a bit of hp) fighting a bit too many mobs at the same time - you're fucked if someone comes to fight you. And you're just as fucked if you don't properly regen between pulls, exactly because someone could come in the middle of your pveing and mess you up in several ways.
As for the time of sitting, I don't think I ever put a number on that. I simply said that you'd sit after every huge pull, where you spent all of your mana. The sitting part was there exactly to speed up the regen process, because sitting boosted your regen. You could always run somewhere if you wanted to, but you'd regen slower.
Your entire party sitting down would also mean that you'd take even just a few extra seconds regrouping if another party came to your farming spot, so they might get a drop on you (especially if you weren't at full resources).
Out-of-combat regen also directly influences how fast the mob respawns are, because if you can regen from 0% to 100% momentarily - mobs better be ready for you to go farm them again, otherwise people like you will complain that there's not enough content to clear and you have to stand around waiting for it. Faster respawns influences drop rate values, because if there's a ton of mobs - you gotta have lower rates, otherwise the entire economy shifts or has to be controlled in a different way. Low rates influence how people see the game, because, while some people like me love to grind stuff for that sweet sweet 0.001% drop chance, majority of people just wanna have fun and get rewarded for it, so having lower rates because you have a ton of mobs would be seen as a bad design.
All of this is the stuff I'm considering when I say what I say. You keep saying that others don't consider other parts of the game when they give feedback, but I feel like you're just projecting, because it's you who usually doesn't go too deep into such considerations. And when others point out their thought process you literally tell them "not to overcomplicate things".
First off the discussion for me is a time thing against comments that are trying to say you need to be sitting down for 20 seconds +.
Second if you are making a argument that people are burning through mobs so they need to artificially slow people down because there is not enough content in the world to support players. That is not a good artificial buffer. Making the mobs more difficult and stronger is a better way to deal with that if that are that easy to deal with on top of the pvx threat.
Third if you are making any kind of point on ganking people because they need to sit down or they have low mana sot hey can't win I don't agree with that. If you are getting ganked you shouldn't be at even more of a disadvantage.
You are making a argument on the game having bad elements and your solutions is to not allow people to play by artificially increasing resting rate rather than dealing with the actual root f the issue. Also if you are killing more mobs and rates need to be lowered to balance that out that is a fine solution to me as well anyway.
I feel you are looking at this as L2 with easy mob farming, I'm unsure of the reality of how the game is going to fully turn out but if the mobs are that easy people just blitz through everything, forcing people to slow down by sitting for extended amounts of time isn't really a fix.
I go into deep consideration, its why in some of our past discussions I point out exactly the different elements of the game and players, you are the one that doesn't do that. I can easily reference different points in other discussions I've talked about with consideration for the design.... In this case you are making an attempt, and I'm simply pointing out the flaw in your point which is how discussion should be. Not I want something just because i want it.
Boiling it down, your consideration is there isn't enough content or to reduce how much players get by forcing them to rest and have to wait before doing more content. Which this has other issues as well when you bring up different group compositions. (Which you can help reduce that issue by just allowing people to play the game and not forced to rest for "long" periods of time added up.)
Let the difficulty of content be what holds players back, though that doesn't mean there isn't easier stuff out there that can be farmed more quickly for less rewards.
So we definitely again don't agree, if there isn't enough content for the player base they will have to do other solutions.
It doesn't matter how long a single mob takes to get killed, because we're talking about the time between mobs.
This suggestion also doesn't take into the account how many mobs are in the vicinity and how big the radius of their aggro is. If a whole party can only pull 1-2 mobs, because they're super difficult, that means that any more mobs would either wipe the party or make it super super difficult to survive. This in turn means that even large locations would only have a few mobs in them, so that people can at least farm said mobs w/o wiping on every other one.
Large locations with very few mobs means that soft friction becomes even more aggressive, because there's barely any content left for newcomers to the location. This in turn increases the danger of any mob, because you gotta keep more resources present in case any players decide to steal it or weaken you against it.
And in cases where everyone agrees not to attack each other, we come back to the discussion of "farming a spot vs running around". If your party comes to a dungeon w/ 0 desire to pvp others, but all mobs are literally taken by other parties - you'll have to go to another dungeon. Now not only your goals for the day completely shifted, but you've also wasted limit playtime (especially if you checked the entire dungeon-worth of rooms).
The balance of this situation is razor-thin and imo making people sit for half a minute in-between pulls creates a more interesting friction situation. The mobs could respawn right before the party regens to full, so any passersby could try going for them, while the og group would argue that this spot was theirs already. The content is present, but it has now become a full pvx situation rather than one or the other.
And this is pretty much how quite a lot of situations in L2 went down in my experience. Which is exactly why I'm giving feedback that matches those situations, because I believe that they're the best setup for a pvx game, because this setup is exactly why I liked L2's pvx.
This is the risk/reward of the situation. Do you pull a weaker mob/group just so that you remain at higher resource values in case the location is super active and there's a ton of people, or do you go all out and clear more pve because you believe that no one else will come while you're regening.
To me, these kinds of considerations are the interesting part of pvx.
And I believe you're in the same minority as me
Yes, of course, which is exactly why I've been saying that I want pve that's much harder than L2's, because that is OBVIOUSLY the exact same thing as L2 had. You are literally responding to a comment that says "I want super hard pve", yet you still bring this up.
I'd be interested in hearing what exactly would those solutions look like in your opinion, cause there's 2 Noaani options of "just have more game" and "have instances", there's mine of "balance out regening better', there's the obvious "this game is not for you, so go fight for those mobs" - so what does your solution look like? Or do you not know and simply hope that Intrepid will come up with some absolutely new way to have both the exciting and thrilling pvx and enough content for everyone at all times (which kinda remove the thrill and excite from that pvx imo).
My stance is the same on non-combat elements, if you start talking about other gameplay elements im going to comment on it in context.
I see a lot of comments on here in relation to resource management in combat, however that works is fine but there isn't really a connection between resting for 30 seconds+ in any kind of management as its down time and you aren't doing anything.
It doesn't create soft friction you are imagining elements that I don't see int he game working in some certain way to give you positive affirmation for your thought. Arguing about who's spot is who's isn't really relevant in this conversation. I could come up with a ton of reasons why people fight over spots which no link in resource management is present...
IF you are in a pvp situation you are going to be focused on killing players and not farming mobs. If pvp is wait for someone to go kill mobs then watch them sit to gank that isn't going to paint a great picture. Letting things lean more towards the sider of a ganker isn't really competitive pvp, both sides should have a chance to fight back even more so with the corruption system. So les chance for people to default with the mind set let them get corrupted and don't fight back. IE if your team has low mana you decide to take the loss with some members and just come back after to kill the corrupted players since you can't win.
Your mind set seems a lot more leaning on the unfair side of pvp in what you want from PvX in relationship to resting, imo.
Personally I'd rather people not be struggling and be able to respond to people and not be on crutches because they did a pve encounter / in middle of one and have limited resources. You are double the factor of their resources, ways classes might be able to reduce their resources in a gank, the pve mobs and them being pvped.
I have no issues with grinding, whatever the game needs you to do to be competitive is what I do. My issue off topic wise will always being able to gamble your gear.
I bring it up the pve because you say one thing you some of your points don't feel towards that vibe. Ie struggling with resources from a few pulls and feeling good PvX situations in relations to the ganks. Running out of mana makes you feel like you can't do anything, losing hp is one thing but there should be a good buffer where people should be able to respond. Unless they are being unreasonable in very heavy pulls (which shouldn't be the basis for the conversation, it should be what the norm is for people. Not on the assumption they are doing light or heavy pulls but the average that is expected).
That depends on the level, and hard for me to judge as a consumer without knowing their plans and how it will play out or their goal. If it isn't that bad you can up the spawns based on player activity in areas from multiple factors including the amount of mobs being killed.
If the issue is more there is not enough land space for all the players to give them content and people have nothing to do or are forced to pvp 24/7. Than instances or shards is the other solution.
It all depends on the severity of the issue in the eyes of the developers and players while keeping a heathy server count. This is going to be test in alpha 2 more than anything..
what if you already know how many mobs you can take at a time, and you can manage aggro perfectly so you never have to fight more than what you can take. should you be able to keep fighting mobs one by one indefinitely or maybe after 5 mins should you need to sit down for a min or two to recover even if you havent overpulled or used any cooldowns?
Only a fraction of a fraction of players would be fine going Red in a dungeon. So majority of people wouldn't try to kill someone who's sitting on their ass and regening. But quite a lot of people would be completely fine flagging up on someone who's fighting hardcore mobs, because reducing players' hp would make it easier for mobs to kill them.
Now tell me, what situation would make it easier to do what I described above:
As I see it, it's the first situation that's more beneficial to gankers and bullies. In the second situation the newcomers would either go to the next room (because this one is "taken") or they'd start fighting mobs themselves. And you know who'd benefit from them doing that? The OG party, because now they are the ones who'll have more resources (cause they'd regen up, while the newcomers are fighting) and they'd have the advantage of the mob threat.
And of course there's the option that newcomers just wait till the OGs start fighting mobs and only then start flagging up, but then it's on the OGs to realize this possibility and address it accordingly.
Like I said, this design creates more interesting and thrilling pvx situations.
So we once again come to a point where I want harder pve than you. The "average" should already be a super hard encounter imo, so only the strongest (or dumbest) groups would be overpulling.
So right now it seems you not only want a more pver-friendly game, but also an easier game, than what I'd prefer.
So you'd be fine with the game's design changing WAAAAAAY fucking more simply because you don't want to sit for a few seconds between pulls? I mean, if that's your opinion that's completely fine. But I'd rather have what Steven promised us, and imo a good balance of out-of-combat regen and mob respawn would do precisely that.
Unsure what you are trying to get at here if people are fighting mobs people are more likely to attack them? That doesn't erase the point of if you aren't moving you are a easy target and it tells a group you are low on resources so it is a easy pk still? Both the same result when the player dies.
This question doesn't really matter because if you plan to pk someone you will pick whatever situation is the best for you based on how the game works. It makes no difference if you rest more often or not so that line of thought doesn't really work. If ganking you when you are fighting mobs is the best way to get loot, I just wait till your next pull??? So resting or not doesn't change anything for the ganker.
Also can you quote me where i said players can farm mobs non-stop, you are exaggerating my points. I said you don't need to be afk 30 seconds every few pulls, as that time is ridiculous and having your resting time get a 50% buff would be in the right spot.
As well as the mob difficulty should be what increases the duration of fight (im not just talking about sponge heavy mobs).
Again your idea of PvX and my idea seem quite far apart. You are trying to say its thrilling because as you were resting a group went head of you and now you can gank them? This doesn't really say much to me in terms of content or anything interesting. Its just normal pvp where you can win a fight because they are weakened with limited resources Its really nothing special to write home about.... Now if both groups know they were farming a dungeon with expectation of fighting each other that is a much better vibe. There would be ways to take that to a much higher level but that would get into another conversation.
You really don't need to add extended forced resting for that kind of pvp situation either. The same result happens without it.
You are killing me with this you are taking my whole point out of context and adjusting it to fit a different mental image in your mind so you can feel right about what you are saying.
It is really hard to talk about these design elements with you sometimes. So if you were to take what i said and mix it what you are trying to say here, you want harder "PvE" than me because you want every encounter to be on the same level of the hardest raid and that is how the game should be balanced around for all forms of content.
I feel like you are trying to really just flex here to trying to say you want harder content than me, but i feel you don't know what you want because you are trying to say a PvX ganking encounter is thrilling pvx???
Also unsure how you get to say i want a more pve friendly game when the whole point is so both groups have a more competitive edge against each other in pvp. Again this feels like it comes down to what you feel is thrilling "PvX" content skewing your opinion. Personally as a pvper i don't find it thrilling i see it as a perfect way to take advantage and win a fight easily without a issue. I don't want teams pools to be so small that they feel a issue from a gank, I want people to be able to fight and not feel like they are in crutches.
As much it can benefit me to gank, when you get ganked its easily rough against you and its better to have more of a fair shot before you die, or to be able to do something atleast and not be half drained from one pull and needing to be vulnerable sitting down constantly on top of it. Both situations someone will happily gank players.
Will do extra focus on this one as well....Why are you trying to take everything out of context again? You asked for solutions I gave you some based on the level of severity that can be taken. That means if its not that bad they have solutions, and if its really bad there are other major solutions that can be taken.
There is not a bias to what they should go with I'm outline from not a big issue to it feels game breaking for players.
honestly its kind of a joke you thinking reduced resting time makes all the mobs spawn suddenly. This goes to you saying things but not actually understanding the overall influence / planning.
As i said in my examples on increasing rates, if the issue is really 15 seconds of extra rest time, you have mobs spawn 15-30 seconds faster.....no extended rest time needed, why is that so hard to understand?
If both groups are just standing around not touching each other or the mobs - they're both wasting time, and one group would have to cave in first and either flag up first or start farming mobs first. The decision making required is what I find thrilling.
And I didn't say that we gotta sit for minutes on end.
I expect different archetypes to have different regen values, which means that a full group would have to wait for the slowest regener or, if we have mana restoration abilities - the mana support will have to re-up everyone. And this kinda ties back to what Depraved said, where a support might be still sitting and regening even if the group is in combat.
30s would probably be the upper limit of mana regen time for me, and this would probably be either on the tank or on the fighter.
And if that fight is long or if you can do several semi-hard pulls per mana pool - that means that you'd only sit for 30s once every 6-10 minutes.
Yes, to me, PvX can only happen when both players and mobs are involved. Everything else is either pve or pvp. So if the pve is hardcore, it means that getting attacked by players while you're pveing is risky as hell.
And anything I say is always in the context of pvx, unless stated otherwise, so imo anyone who goes into a dungeon should expect pvx by default, so the last part of this quote wouldn't have more complexity than what I said, because that consideration is the literal base lvl of understanding in a pvx game.
Which is precisely my point. You're a pvper, while I'm a pvxer. You want to just pvp with some mobs as a backdrop, I want to pvx with both hardcore mobs and hardcore players. And I want the game to be designed in a way where that is not only possible, but is also the optimal way to play. And I've been saying this in pretty much every pve/pvx discussion.
To me THIS is what a korean mmo sounds like. This sounds like L2 or BDO or some other stuff from the east. I want a better game than this, where pve is still challenging on its own, but players have the tools to not immediately die if that challenging pve becomes hardcore pvx.
I already explained what I think would happen if mobs spawned faster.
And also to clarify, I'm fine with faster spawns in easy solo locations because I'd expect those mobs to barely have any valuable loot, so having more content for solo players to train their gameplay on is good. But as soon as you go to farm something more valuable - it should be hard and it should have a respawn timer appropriate to the regen values of those who'll supposedly be farming it (which is why I said that balancing this ratio well is very difficult).
As far as I'm concerned, Warhammer Age of Reckoning had the best health/mana regen balance.