I like the idea of having to "rest" (not necessarily sit) in between pulls. Not for minutes at the time, but at least letting the character have a breather. I am not very fond of the idea of having to clog my inventory with tons of food and water (ala WoW vanilla style), but resting a bit makes sense. That said, I am (of course) all for buff food, bard/inn buffs, elixirs and stuff like that to temporarily enhance the player's combat abilities, including mana and HP regen in and out of combat.
Also, I feel like it is important to touch on the context (as some have done above).
1) The character was a mage. Mages should be all about resouce management. You either blast the living crap out of stuff - at the cost of having to rest after - or you take it slow and steady. In the end, both should result in roughly the same time - but one is high intensity with rest afterwards while the other one is much more even. Kind of like a sprinter vs. a marathon runner!
2) Assuming we get support classes that affect mana regen, having too quick out-of-combat mana regen will definitely nerf their usefulness in anything that is not long boss fights or PvP battles. I feel like a bard (or summoner) should be a great companion to any player that wants to spend less time resting, even in a more casual setting than big battles.
3) The player was by himself most of the time. Obviously, if he brought a group of any kind (even a small one) the pulls could be much more even.
Personally, I thought the phase of it looked great for a single mage in a regular commission zone.
Looks like opinions are varied on this subject! Feedback like this is always helpful for the team, so if you're stopping by this thread, we'd love to see you give your thoughts on what you prefer for health + mana regeneration!
Short answer: This looks okay. 30 seconds from empty to full solo seems about right. For Ashes, I think I prefer an active resting mode to passive out of combat regen.
Long answer with some examples:
GW2 has a very rapid CoD style health regen out of combat. This was very good for the overall casual experience GW2 wants to give. Go into combat, press buttons, and run straight into the next mob. While the system is fairly intuitive, it makes for a somewhat gamey experience.
Would GW2 be better off with forced rest breaks? I don't think so. Much of the game is designed about a constant flow of tiny rewards and how smoothly the player can navigate from one reward to the next. Recovery breaks would fight against the overall game design.
DDO would be somewhere on the other end of the spectrum, where (at least early on), you don't get anything back between fights outside of rest shrines and whatever items and spells you have. If you are out, you are out, and every point of damage counts.
This design works for DDO because it deters players from just rushing through all the encounters. Instead, the player is incentivized to aproach the scenarios with a DnD mindset. Everything about the environment is more tense, and hazards and traps matter even if they don't instantly kill. I'm not sure if resources are as much of a probblem during endgame, but I never played DDO to that point.
Outside of MMOs, a good contrast is the extraction genre, like Dark and Darker. Some classes need to stop periodically to refresh between fights, and healing is always a deliberate action that takes time (and is not always even available).
Would fast out of combat regen make for a better experience? Not really. Having to spend time healing makes getting hit hard a big deal, since it makes you a target for other players. If healing was free and easy between encounters, the overall atmosphere would be much less oppressive. Also, actively having to sit down to meditate enhances the experience since it plays into the overall dungeon crawl feeling. Regaining spells is not always just a forced break, but rather a tense moment where you try to gauge if the ring is catching up on you and oh fuck, you hear a skeleton creeping nearby...
Then what about Ashes?
While GW2 style regen would not ruin the game, I think recovering as an active activity meshes better with the rest of the game. I think Ashes in general is trying to be less about moment to moment dopamine hits, and instead more about trying to achieve longer term goals. How I see it:
The world is spookier when hp/mana recovery requires the player to be vulnerable to mobs and other players. The world in Ashes is supposed to feel dangeous, and active recovery would support that.
Resting grounds the player more into the game world, and lets people socialize a bit between mashing buttons. This is useful with the Ashes theme of trying to bring strangers together. I don't think Ashes gameplay should aim for BDO style endless farm rotations or GW2 event trains, both of which would clash with forced downtime.
Active recovery also incentivizes more group play in general, as groups will have to rest less than a solo player due to buffs and increased efficiency. This is a plus for Ashes in my opinion.
Finally, for PvP design, I don't like when being briefly out of combat is a reset. There's something very whack-a-mole about having to completely kill someone before they escape, or they will be back with full life in 10 seconds. While it does feel good to narrowly avoid death and then being able to return back to the fight with little downtime, it reminds me I'm playing a game instead of fighting for my life in a fantasy world.
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Not after every single fight, but there, for sure, should be a point where you need to stop and recover.
The choice comes in how far you can push it before you are overwhelmed. Having that span over two or three engagements would be preferable.
However, having mana and health fill up after every ecounter makes all mobs feel boring and pointless.
Some hassle and inconvenience is a good thing. It means there are actually things you can't do. Modern MMOs get that wrong, not right.
I understand about pacing and sometimes things can be taken away off or make some threats feel reduced if you heal instantly. Though no one is really advocating for that.
Though lets say you do heal instantly for the sake of this following point, it shouldn't really has nothing to do with mobs feeling boring or pointless unless the mobs functions are limited to chase and attack. What should make things not feel boring is the skill set mobs can do to make each encounter fun.
Those encounters should be based off players being at full with all cds and not based off players being at half their resources generally.
Controlling what you use in combat is one thing, doesn't mean you need to be afk for 30 seconds every few min though. Recovery should be 50% faster and I feel that would be a great state. CDs should be what is important to managing which stops inbetween breaks (resting) from being tied down to a singular spot and unable to move.
We may be advocating for the same thing. If I'm fighting and I use everthing I have, I will exit the fight ready to take on the next (in reguards to health and mana) but will have consumed valuable CDs. If I tone it down a bit, I'll have to "spend" more in terms of both mana and health to avoid consuming cooldowns, so it's a balancing act.
Either way there reaches a point where I need to stop to recover what I "spent". That's a good thing, navigating the world becomes engaging. After traversing or clearing an area, I have a sence of accomplishment. Without a point where I'm overextended (besides just pulling too many mobs), I lose that and everything feels stale after a while.
This also helps promote coordination and engagement between group members since they have to manage these costs together in order to get where they want to go.
On the side, it also promotes a healthy economy for consumables. Getting prepared for an excursion actually become something meaningful.
My issue really coms down to people thinking after a few fights you need to rest and that rest time being extensive and becoming tedious. Based on the content to you there will be differences in the amount of hp / mana loss.
It is dead end content to be doing nothing, it doesn't need to be extended for no reason. Unless there is content that is roaming and hunting you directly with that kind of difficulty being kept in mind.
So if I'm understanding your perspective correctly, you think that down time should exist. You just worry that it will be taken too far. If that is the case, then we are on the same page.
What I am considering good would be something like this:
1 - I arrive in an area with a lot of spread out mobs that are around my lvl
2 - I engage a couple of them, since I think i can handle them alone.
3 - After defeating both of them, I'm about half health and half mana
4 - I still have all my more powerful cooldowns left so I take on another 2.
5 - about halfway through, another 2 mobs surprise me and wander in
6 - I'm surviving but I need to start using some of my long cooldowns
7 - Eventually I manage to take them out, but by now all my major cooldowns are gone, I've used a number of consumables and my mana and health are nearly gone.
8 - It's going to take time to recover my health and mana and it's a bit dangerous to re-engage until some of my abilities come back online so I go off to the side, and for 10 to 15 seconds I recover and get ready to go back in.
As long as I'm taking on a reasonable number of mobs at a reasonable pace, I'm good, the game will allow me to continue. But the moment I take on too much, or don't pay attention, I am forced to eventually stop. In this way my reward for managing agro and paying attention (not to mention learning the best way to defeat specific enemies) is continued gameplay. My punishment for taking on too much or not knowing my enemies is to be forced to stop playing and recover.
This is an example of an area where it's safe to solo. Obviously in a group centered area the mobs may have this effect on the whole group. Its not a perfect example, but this is the sort of loop I'd like to see.
what if you already know how many mobs you can take at a time, and you can manage aggro perfectly so you never have to fight more than what you can take. should you be able to keep fighting mobs one by one indefinitely or maybe after 5 mins should you need to sit down for a min or two to recover even if you havent overpulled or used any cooldowns?
Yeah, I would also like to see what you are describing. No matter what you do, the game should eventually drain you to the point that you have to stop and recover.
It should take a few minutes, otherwise it just feels cumbersome. But downtime definitely needs to happen, it adds valuable change of pace to a game session.
I love games like PoE and Warframe (I have tons of hours in both), but the zoomer lifestyle causes me to need very long breaks.
Unsure what you are trying to get at here if people are fighting mobs people are more likely to attack them? That doesn't erase the point of if you aren't moving you are a easy target and it tells a group you are low on resources so it is a easy pk still? Both the same result when the player dies.
This question doesn't really matter because if you plan to pk someone you will pick whatever situation is the best for you based on how the game works. It makes no difference if you rest more often or not so that line of thought doesn't really work. If ganking you when you are fighting mobs is the best way to get loot, I just wait till your next pull??? So resting or not doesn't change anything for the ganker.
The entire point is to avoid PKing. Mobs allow you to do that.
If both groups are just standing around not touching each other or the mobs - they're both wasting time, and one group would have to cave in first and either flag up first or start farming mobs first. The decision making required is what I find thrilling.
Also can you quote me where i said players can farm mobs non-stop, you are exaggerating my points. I said you don't need to be afk 30 seconds every few pulls, as that time is ridiculous and having your resting time get a 50% buff would be in the right spot.
And I didn't say that we gotta sit for minutes on end.
I expect different archetypes to have different regen values, which means that a full group would have to wait for the slowest regener or, if we have mana restoration abilities - the mana support will have to re-up everyone. And this kinda ties back to what Depraved said, where a support might be still sitting and regening even if the group is in combat.
30s would probably be the upper limit of mana regen time for me, and this would probably be either on the tank or on the fighter.
Again your idea of PvX and my idea seem quite far apart. You are trying to say its thrilling because as you were resting a group went head of you and now you can gank them? This doesn't really say much to me in terms of content or anything interesting. Its just normal pvp where you can win a fight because they are weakened with limited resources Its really nothing special to write home about.... Now if both groups know they were farming a dungeon with expectation of fighting each other that is a much better vibe. There would be ways to take that to a much higher level but that would get into another conversation.
Yes, to me, PvX can only happen when both players and mobs are involved. Everything else is either pve or pvp. So if the pve is hardcore, it means that getting attacked by players while you're pveing is risky as hell.
And anything I say is always in the context of pvx, unless stated otherwise, so imo anyone who goes into a dungeon should expect pvx by default, so the last part of this quote wouldn't have more complexity than what I said, because that consideration is the literal base lvl of understanding in a pvx game.
Also unsure how you get to say i want a more pve friendly game when the whole point is so both groups have a more competitive edge against each other in pvp. Again this feels like it comes down to what you feel is thrilling "PvX" content skewing your opinion. Personally as a pvper i don't find it thrilling i see it as a perfect way to take advantage and win a fight easily without a issue. I don't want teams pools to be so small that they feel a issue from a gank, I want people to be able to fight and not feel like they are in crutches.
Which is precisely my point. You're a pvper, while I'm a pvxer. You want to just pvp with some mobs as a backdrop, I want to pvx with both hardcore mobs and hardcore players. And I want the game to be designed in a way where that is not only possible, but is also the optimal way to play. And I've been saying this in pretty much every pve/pvx discussion.
As much it can benefit me to gank, when you get ganked its easily rough against you and its better to have more of a fair shot before you die, or to be able to do something atleast and not be half drained from one pull and needing to be vulnerable sitting down constantly on top of it. Both situations someone will happily gank players.
To me THIS is what a korean mmo sounds like. This sounds like L2 or BDO or some other stuff from the east. I want a better game than this, where pve is still challenging on its own, but players have the tools to not immediately die if that challenging pve becomes hardcore pvx.
As i said in my examples on increasing rates, if the issue is really 15 seconds of extra rest time, you have mobs spawn 15-30 seconds faster.....no extended rest time needed, why is that so hard to understand?
I already explained what I think would happen if mobs spawned faster.
And also to clarify, I'm fine with faster spawns in easy solo locations because I'd expect those mobs to barely have any valuable loot, so having more content for solo players to train their gameplay on is good. But as soon as you go to farm something more valuable - it should be hard and it should have a respawn timer appropriate to the regen values of those who'll supposedly be farming it (which is why I said that balancing this ratio well is very difficult).
Both teams standing around honestly has nothing to do with not forcing players to rest for 30+ seconds their is no link here...
You have also mentioned 30 seconds at this point so yes that adds up to many many minutes. Id you are fighting every 2-3 min and resting for 30 seconds per fight that is ridiculous. Your whole point is if they are forced to rest more mobs will spawn so clearly it has to be a substantial amount in the eyes of the player. Even if that amount in the game is little in comparison to mob spawn. My whole point on this discussion has been long constant rest times (in eyes of the player) that some people have been saying is good, including you.
Or you can sit for 15 seconds and not 30 seconds....
That isn't really PvX that is just ganking there is no motivation to do both at the same time. IF you know a group is coming to PvP you you aren't going to be pulling mobs you are going to be focused on killing the player (unless the players so weak they don't matter and are not heat).
I say that isn't PvX because you are trying to view it as you are doing both the same time and in that setting you generally aren't you will focus on what is the biggest threat, which is generally the player. PvX is more of player, monster or both at the same time. The moment it becomes both a player will focus against the player and the pve will become less important until the threat is gone.
If it is going to be PvX in how you are trying to say it has to be at the same time, there needs to be objectives and not just killing mobs for loot, but things that force you to do both at the same time. Ganking is just ganking its nothing special or thrilling it is just something hat adds more overall danger and normal for pvp.
I've never heard in my life someone call themselves a Pvxer. This is another thing of you saying something but not fully grasping that kind of matching what I was saying above what would be needed. Ganking doesn't make you a pvxer, you are simply saying players having an advantage is what makes someone a pvexer. Which that feels kind of shallow.
The way you are describing it "being risky as hell" leads players to focus on the PvP element and again deal with the threat first so they aren't dropping all their loot on the ground. Remember reason i mentioned make mobs/content strong is in retaliation to a worry about them spawning too fast if it takes longer to kill them that balances out this idea you need to rest for double the amount of time...
You think having a fair fight sounds like a korean mmorpg lol? Effectively you are again trying to say ganking is pvx gameplay. In any game in relating to PvP you need to remove elements of ganking as a benefit and lead it more towards a fair fight, obviously you can't do that fully and that is fine. But that is important so people are more willing to fight and not just corrupt another player on top of other reasons.
Ganking is not the pinnacle of what PvX gameplay can do.
Back to spawns, so if spawns can be increased as a solution e we don't need player resting for 30 seconds and that can be 15. If we are talking about valuable drops from mobs you can reduce the drop rate and have the mobs spawn slightly faster. Players resting for some amount of seconds in terms of mob spawn time shouldn't make a difference, the difference should be made in the difficulty of the content which will cost much more time than players rest.
Hence increasing and constant resting times don't add anything to the game that can't be solved with more appropriate methods.
Ganking is not the pinnacle of what PvX gameplay can do.
Seems kinda funny saying that, but the more you write the more it feels like the game just won't be for you
The entire point of having majority of content in the open world (with owpvp) is that you can be attacked while clearing said content. Steven's entire spiel of "there's no reward w/o risk" means exactly that most of the time.
If you want to have pvp separated from pve, you will not enjoy majority of the game's pve, because it won't just be pve and pvp separate - it's gonna be pvx.
I guess BDO truly never had proper owpvp, cause it definitely seems that you've never played a game with that feature. Or, at the very least, it seems strange for you to like and keep following Ashes if you have in fact played a game like that and disliked it for that exact feature.
As for having a design that's worth to be called pvx, I already talked about it before. Players should have tools to utilize mobs to their own advantage in case a pvp fight starts during pve. Redirection of aggro, repositioning of mobs, retargeting of mobs, controlled enrage triggers, pacifying tools, redirection of dmg onto another player - all of these can be used in a pvx situation and, in a way, make the situation itself pvx, because there's no separation of mobs and players.
I want a better game than what we've seen before and what you seem to be basing your assumption on.
Ganking is not the pinnacle of what PvX gameplay can do.
Seems kinda funny saying that, but the more you write the more it feels like the game just won't be for you
The entire point of having majority of content in the open world (with owpvp) is that you can be attacked while clearing said content. Steven's entire spiel of "there's no reward w/o risk" means exactly that most of the time.
If you want to have pvp separated from pve, you will not enjoy majority of the game's pve, because it won't just be pve and pvp separate - it's gonna be pvx.
I guess BDO truly never had proper owpvp, cause it definitely seems that you've never played a game with that feature. Or, at the very least, it seems strange for you to like and keep following Ashes if you have in fact played a game like that and disliked it for that exact feature.
As for having a design that's worth to be called pvx, I already talked about it before. Players should have tools to utilize mobs to their own advantage in case a pvp fight starts during pve. Redirection of aggro, repositioning of mobs, retargeting of mobs, controlled enrage triggers, pacifying tools, redirection of dmg onto another player - all of these can be used in a pvx situation and, in a way, make the situation itself pvx, because there's no separation of mobs and players.
I want a better game than what we've seen before and what you seem to be basing your assumption on.
Are you purposely not trying to understand what I'm saying??
That more linage2 pvp must have boiled down to you just gank people and no one was looking for actual fights. And a reason why they are adding anti ganking parts in AoC leaning towards what I'm saying.
In fact AoC might not be for you if you are use to just ganking people and calling that PvX gameplay, and why you were hesitant to buy int the alpha x.x.
You say you are a PvX mmorpg player, yet think pvx gameplay pinnacle is ganking. I think you might be misreading AoC intention as they mentioned there is going to be objectives for players for guild wars. That means we aren't talking about PvX gameplay being in the most basic unskilled element is just ganking.
But hey if you need PvX to be mainly about ganking (with heavy advantage) and having the gameplay dumbed down to each is their own. I'll be supporting elements that can actually push it forward with more complex objective designs and proper fights.
I see why you don't consider yourself a pvper, having your gameplay desire to be around ganking doesn't fit you in pve or pvp really.
I think you might be misreading AoC intention as they mentioned there is going to be objectives for players for guild wars.
And yet for some reason in both node and guild wars we can attack each other w/o any restrictions for as long as the war is on, and not just during prime-time. Funny how that is.
But hey if you need PvX to be mainly about ganking (with heavy advantage) and having the gameplay dumbed down to each is their own. I'll be supporting elements that can actually push it forward with more complex objective designs and proper fights.
I think you might be misreading AoC intention as they mentioned there is going to be objectives for players for guild wars.
And yet for some reason in both node and guild wars we can attack each other w/o any restrictions for as long as the war is on, and not just during prime-time. Funny how that is.
But hey if you need PvX to be mainly about ganking (with heavy advantage) and having the gameplay dumbed down to each is their own. I'll be supporting elements that can actually push it forward with more complex objective designs and proper fights.
Are you purposely not trying to understand what I'm saying??
You are misdirecting the whole point. Being able to attack each other other without limit during a war as absolutely nothing to do with taking away the fact they are looking for more from PvP than just ganking,
Your idea of PvX doesn't seem to match what they are going for because you are seeking the lowest level of PvX in terms of saying it needs to happen at the same time in the way of ganking.
Again I really don't think you have gotten deep into any pvp in mmorpgs as of recent lately. PvX is both threats PvE and PvP,. When ganking is involved with the reason to simply kill people or claim a spot that shift towards PvP. The focus of players is not doing the PvE content but dealing with the threat of player. That means people focus on fighting and not this mix of PvX like you keep saying.
An objective + the difficulty of the mobs besides being just sponges or attack bots change that flow of combat. That flow needs players to have resources in their pool based on those types of fights lasting a lot longer. This will shift towards PvP if your pools are running low from killing a few mobs as you will have no choice but to use resources against players as you have nothing to spare. This is why making sure things are FAIR is important as it helps increase PvP + PvE giving players more options.
Your idea of PvX being ganking is not thrilling or special, that doesn't lean to a fusion of both content together. It is just PvP.
To keep it with the point of resting because this is becoming what makes a good pvx discussion at this point)
There is no reason to hamper people by overly long resting. The extra time spent resting BOTH can be solved by increasing spawn rates and increasing the difficulty slightly of different areas to make up for the reduced time of resting. IF the issue if just some extra seconds needed to mobs will spawn faster.
You don't need to force players to have dead time to solve that kind of issue. Play rest can be made organically through talking about upcoming challenges and preparing without a forced increased resting time.
You are free to try to argue reduced spawn times and increased challenges (to increase the time to kill the mobs by 15+ seconds) can not solve that issue though of them spawning if the extra time needed was 15 seconds.
Your idea of PvX doesn't seem to match what they are going for because you are seeking the lowest level of PvX in terms of saying it needs to happen at the same time in the way of ganking.
You're free to tell Steven that he has no damn clue what kind of game he's making and that his "risk = reward" is complete bullshit, because no one's meant to fight each other when there's a mob around.
An objective + the difficulty of the mobs besides being just sponges or attack bots change that flow of combat. That flow needs players to have resources in their pool based on those types of fights lasting a lot longer. This will shift towards PvP if your pools are running low from killing a few mobs as you will have no choice but to use resources against players as you have nothing to spare. This is why making sure things are FAIR is important as it helps increase PvP + PvE giving players more options.
And now just imagine a game where those og farmers have the tools to turn their limited resources into a proper threat, by simply redirecting the mob onto the attackers. And now it's the ever-so-spooky gankers that are at a disadvantage, because they're not only flagged (which means CCs from the victims), but now also have to deal with a strong mob that's gonna make them hurt if they don't play well enough.
Plenty of reason imo.
Rest and recuperation allow for fun/interesting mechanics from offsets derived from player skills, buffs and crafting. Brings more depth and interaction.
i.e. going to the inn to get a +25% out of combat hp/mana buff for the next 2 hours. et al.
Your idea of PvX doesn't seem to match what they are going for because you are seeking the lowest level of PvX in terms of saying it needs to happen at the same time in the way of ganking.
You're free to tell Steven that he has no damn clue what kind of game he's making and that his "risk = reward" is complete bullshit, because no one's meant to fight each other when there's a mob around.
An objective + the difficulty of the mobs besides being just sponges or attack bots change that flow of combat. That flow needs players to have resources in their pool based on those types of fights lasting a lot longer. This will shift towards PvP if your pools are running low from killing a few mobs as you will have no choice but to use resources against players as you have nothing to spare. This is why making sure things are FAIR is important as it helps increase PvP + PvE giving players more options.
And now just imagine a game where those og farmers have the tools to turn their limited resources into a proper threat, by simply redirecting the mob onto the attackers. And now it's the ever-so-spooky gankers that are at a disadvantage, because they're not only flagged (which means CCs from the victims), but now also have to deal with a strong mob that's gonna make them hurt if they don't play well enough.
Stop trying to speak for Steven when they are already added in elements to support players being ganked so they aren't at a disadvantage. The one im saying has no clue what they are talking about is you right now.
Also feel free to quote when where is aid fights need to happen with 0 mobs around you literally are refusing to understand what is being said because you simply just want to gank people that are almost dead lmao, and not allow them to be able to properly challenge you.
Doesn't mater how you word it the people ganking have the advantage, trying to meta game a scenario where they can possible lose has nothing to do with the disccusion. Even more so you are missing the point and just talking about general pvp at this point. If you are fightign a mob and have used most your resources (mana) You aren't doing much of anything over a prolonged pvp fight where attackers have full everything..
Hence the point would be you saying they can try to get aggro on attackers as they are beating you down will be hard when you don't have the mana or skills up to do that for your whole group. And why im for people having resources and not being drained from 2 fights so easily.
People should have the ability to fight back and not for it to be one sided. Something the devs clearly agree with based on implementation within the game.
Just to make this point extra clear because you aren't getting it since you want one side to be weakened. Anything you can do the other team can do PLUS more. You are trying to say you are going to redirect the mob on attackers that could be on Cd making you unable to do that else risking your healer dying. The attackers can do the same exact thing to you right back as well while being full mana, life and CDS.
I just watched the livestream over the weekend. I have mixed feelings about it. If it was a little bit faster I would be fine with it. But it does feel like a punishment of some sort. But if I will be able to spend points in faster mana regen, then maybe I would be fine with it.
I just watched the livestream over the weekend. I have mixed feelings about it. If it was a little bit faster I would be fine with it. But it does feel like a punishment of some sort. But if I will be able to spend points in faster mana regen, then maybe I would be fine with it.
We'll see in Q3.
Agreed that is the point just needs to be a bit faster and its fine imo. Slower would be the wrong direction which is what my points are directed towards.
I think you guys are really overhyping the PK aspect. With meaningful consequences PK won't be as big as it is made out to be, unless it is during caravans, an enemy made in game, or for specific loot. The biggest PK issue I see is PK'ing a crafter in town and what he may lose or a character that is max weight moving mats (I read you can PK anywhere right?). I'm not too worried about pk. It isn't like the xp loss will be anything like L2. It will just add to the excitement. Ill come back with clan members or friends and kill you. Then you come back and on and on it goes until someone decides they've had enough.
The thing about pve is that it is dependent on so many things - class, play style, skill, BUFFS, GEAR. I tend to always find the most efficient way to do things, so making it so you don't have to sit to heal after a hard group with adds means I'm playing a prettier version of a game like Diablo.
Sitting is a signal to the enemy that you feel vulnerable and you are out of potions.
Next time don't fight alone. Have enough potions (artisans need work too) have healers in your team and professions which can speed up mana regeneration.
And don't fight with NPCs which are at the upper limit of what you can kill as if nobody else can harm you unless you accept the risk of being driven away from the farming spot.
I think a consideration is the frequency that the gameplay flow will be interrupted. There will always be a balance where too much or too little can be struck. I think the considerations all in all I think should be taken:
- How long is the downtime? I think 30 seconds is too long personally if the sole purpose is to replenish Hp/Mana.
- Versatility of the food buffs. I like the idea of people having a "well fed" buff which offers more passive regen (out of combat, or in and out, but diminished in combat) - after eating for a longer period (or maybe in certain places like in an Inn in a city, on a freehold etc. - but you can have food for a sit-down recovery which offers no well fed buff, but offers the quicker replenishment (and at best, the quickest over any for top tier food).
- Economy. Naturally more gold sinks is better for moving money around the economy right? Food will have buffs I am sure but if the normal regen food also has to be made and sold be players then I don't hate the sound of that.
- Inventory space. I suppose the way that regeneration is balanced will determine how much food you need to carry, just "food for thought".
I think that I don't mind resting for regen as long as it doesn't interfere with the gameplay too much. And I suppose food serving its purpose can diminish that downtime.
i remembered in the old mmo Dark Age of Camelot they added at a later point a camp fire system that was nice.
you had a realy shitty mana/health regen in general. but you could find campfires that drasticly increased the out of combat reg and gave a dmg buff for melee attacks.
once placed the stayed for i think 10 min or so.
it was also nice because the best xp spots where in the pvp zones. so if you saw a campfire you know there could be a group around and start hunting them or avoid the "taken" mob camp.
i think something like that could be a nice addition.
nodes could sell the campfires and crafters could build better ones.
Seemingly pointless delay of game, and annoyance mechanics are usually resolved by cash shop purchases. Since this not going to be an option in Ashes, there may be in-game remedies that we are unaware of.
I am curious to see if out of combat regen is something a Bard could address to increase their value to a group.
Regen pots for the economy etc.
It you did not have to rest up at all, there would almost be no insentive to group. Besides that, it would probably go too fast. They would have to lower XP for mobs and probably a ton of other stuff I dont know. If any classes have regen in anything, that would haveto be scrapped etc. Bad idea all around,.
It you did not have to rest up at all, there would almost be no insentive to group. Besides that, it would probably go too fast. They would have to lower XP for mobs and probably a ton of other stuff I dont know. If any classes have regen in anything, that would haveto be scrapped etc. Bad idea all around,.
No one said 0 resting....People are saying extended rest times are not needed.
I understand why sitting is a mechanic, due to the risk factor, and integrating in some automatic down time for the player, and encouraging social interactions; but if im in the mood to fight things and farm, I don't want to be forced to stop and rest, it kills the flow and mood. I would rather the risk factor be placed elsewhere that doesn't kill the pacing, like the risk of pulling too many mobs at once or something like that. As far as the built-in downtime, I think i'd rather that be integrated into other more slower paced systems instead, like artisanship maybe, where it isn't gonna majorly disrupt the flow and pace of what your currently doing if you have some downtime. Wheras when im out farming mobs I would rather be able to strategically self-regulate my own downtime between fights to plan and interact with group members, while having the freedom to farm mobs uninterrupted with skillfull resource sustainability (at least until higher difficulties where group sustain might be required).
It you did not have to rest up at all, there would almost be no insentive to group. Besides that, it would probably go too fast. They would have to lower XP for mobs and probably a ton of other stuff I dont know. If any classes have regen in anything, that would haveto be scrapped etc. Bad idea all around,.
No one said 0 resting....People are saying extended rest times are not needed.
This I would say is what Im basically saying as well.
Make the game challenging enough that it will drain you naturally on its own. That way, the rest and recover time happens naturally because the game is great. No artificial injection of rest needed.
If we can hit cruise control and coast through. Dial it up so we can't.
It you did not have to rest up at all, there would almost be no insentive to group. Besides that, it would probably go too fast. They would have to lower XP for mobs and probably a ton of other stuff I dont know. If any classes have regen in anything, that would haveto be scrapped etc. Bad idea all around,.
No one said 0 resting....People are saying extended rest times are not needed.
This I would say is what Im basically saying as well.
Make the game challenging enough that it will drain you naturally on its own. That way, the rest and recover time happens naturally because the game is great. No artificial injection of rest needed.
If we can hit cruise control and coast through. Dial it up so we can't.
Remember the point of discussion is the amount of time you are resting. People that say 20+ seconds + it being constant is not what i agree on..
It you did not have to rest up at all, there would almost be no insentive to group. Besides that, it would probably go too fast. They would have to lower XP for mobs and probably a ton of other stuff I dont know. If any classes have regen in anything, that would haveto be scrapped etc. Bad idea all around,.
No one said 0 resting....People are saying extended rest times are not needed.
This I would say is what Im basically saying as well.
Make the game challenging enough that it will drain you naturally on its own. That way, the rest and recover time happens naturally because the game is great. No artificial injection of rest needed.
If we can hit cruise control and coast through. Dial it up so we can't.
Remember the point of discussion is the amount of time you are resting. People that say 20+ seconds + it being constant is not what i agree on..
This is one those things thats hard to pin down in seconds, for me at least. I guess its going to come down to pacing and feel once we are in there.
I wouldn't want to take breaks after every fight just because my health dropped below a certain number or just because I was knocked down!
To me, it would make sense to have to rest after venturing for 3 hours straight. It could serve as a window for people to stretch their legs and take a quick break. Maybe after 3 hours of PvP or PvE (even woodcutting), it would be acceptable to rest for 5 minutes; otherwise, the character would always be tired.
This mechanic would give parties the opportunity to decide when to rest, allowing them to rest together, much like real-life armies do. It could also be enjoyable to do this together, cooking food, eating, having a chat with the boys, and taking a short break. People could have their well-deserved breaks in real life.
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Perhaps when you're resurrected by another player after dying, you could enter a 15-minute weakened state with all attributes reduced by 50%. This effect could be undone by waiting 15 minutes or consuming food,
I'm still not sure if I would be super stoked about it, but at least it is simple and people would understand it.
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Comments
Also, I feel like it is important to touch on the context (as some have done above).
1) The character was a mage. Mages should be all about resouce management. You either blast the living crap out of stuff - at the cost of having to rest after - or you take it slow and steady. In the end, both should result in roughly the same time - but one is high intensity with rest afterwards while the other one is much more even. Kind of like a sprinter vs. a marathon runner!
2) Assuming we get support classes that affect mana regen, having too quick out-of-combat mana regen will definitely nerf their usefulness in anything that is not long boss fights or PvP battles. I feel like a bard (or summoner) should be a great companion to any player that wants to spend less time resting, even in a more casual setting than big battles.
3) The player was by himself most of the time. Obviously, if he brought a group of any kind (even a small one) the pulls could be much more even.
Personally, I thought the phase of it looked great for a single mage in a regular commission zone.
Short answer:
This looks okay. 30 seconds from empty to full solo seems about right. For Ashes, I think I prefer an active resting mode to passive out of combat regen.
Long answer with some examples:
GW2 has a very rapid CoD style health regen out of combat. This was very good for the overall casual experience GW2 wants to give. Go into combat, press buttons, and run straight into the next mob. While the system is fairly intuitive, it makes for a somewhat gamey experience.
Would GW2 be better off with forced rest breaks? I don't think so. Much of the game is designed about a constant flow of tiny rewards and how smoothly the player can navigate from one reward to the next. Recovery breaks would fight against the overall game design.
DDO would be somewhere on the other end of the spectrum, where (at least early on), you don't get anything back between fights outside of rest shrines and whatever items and spells you have. If you are out, you are out, and every point of damage counts.
This design works for DDO because it deters players from just rushing through all the encounters. Instead, the player is incentivized to aproach the scenarios with a DnD mindset. Everything about the environment is more tense, and hazards and traps matter even if they don't instantly kill. I'm not sure if resources are as much of a probblem during endgame, but I never played DDO to that point.
Outside of MMOs, a good contrast is the extraction genre, like Dark and Darker. Some classes need to stop periodically to refresh between fights, and healing is always a deliberate action that takes time (and is not always even available).
Would fast out of combat regen make for a better experience? Not really. Having to spend time healing makes getting hit hard a big deal, since it makes you a target for other players. If healing was free and easy between encounters, the overall atmosphere would be much less oppressive. Also, actively having to sit down to meditate enhances the experience since it plays into the overall dungeon crawl feeling. Regaining spells is not always just a forced break, but rather a tense moment where you try to gauge if the ring is catching up on you and oh fuck, you hear a skeleton creeping nearby...
Then what about Ashes?
While GW2 style regen would not ruin the game, I think recovering as an active activity meshes better with the rest of the game. I think Ashes in general is trying to be less about moment to moment dopamine hits, and instead more about trying to achieve longer term goals. How I see it:
Finally, for PvP design, I don't like when being briefly out of combat is a reset. There's something very whack-a-mole about having to completely kill someone before they escape, or they will be back with full life in 10 seconds. While it does feel good to narrowly avoid death and then being able to return back to the fight with little downtime, it reminds me I'm playing a game instead of fighting for my life in a fantasy world.
Yeah, I would also like to see what you are describing. No matter what you do, the game should eventually drain you to the point that you have to stop and recover.
It should take a few minutes, otherwise it just feels cumbersome. But downtime definitely needs to happen, it adds valuable change of pace to a game session.
I love games like PoE and Warframe (I have tons of hours in both), but the zoomer lifestyle causes me to need very long breaks.
Both teams standing around honestly has nothing to do with not forcing players to rest for 30+ seconds their is no link here...
You have also mentioned 30 seconds at this point so yes that adds up to many many minutes. Id you are fighting every 2-3 min and resting for 30 seconds per fight that is ridiculous. Your whole point is if they are forced to rest more mobs will spawn so clearly it has to be a substantial amount in the eyes of the player. Even if that amount in the game is little in comparison to mob spawn. My whole point on this discussion has been long constant rest times (in eyes of the player) that some people have been saying is good, including you.
Or you can sit for 15 seconds and not 30 seconds....
That isn't really PvX that is just ganking there is no motivation to do both at the same time. IF you know a group is coming to PvP you you aren't going to be pulling mobs you are going to be focused on killing the player (unless the players so weak they don't matter and are not heat).
I say that isn't PvX because you are trying to view it as you are doing both the same time and in that setting you generally aren't you will focus on what is the biggest threat, which is generally the player. PvX is more of player, monster or both at the same time. The moment it becomes both a player will focus against the player and the pve will become less important until the threat is gone.
If it is going to be PvX in how you are trying to say it has to be at the same time, there needs to be objectives and not just killing mobs for loot, but things that force you to do both at the same time. Ganking is just ganking its nothing special or thrilling it is just something hat adds more overall danger and normal for pvp.
I've never heard in my life someone call themselves a Pvxer. This is another thing of you saying something but not fully grasping that kind of matching what I was saying above what would be needed. Ganking doesn't make you a pvxer, you are simply saying players having an advantage is what makes someone a pvexer. Which that feels kind of shallow.
The way you are describing it "being risky as hell" leads players to focus on the PvP element and again deal with the threat first so they aren't dropping all their loot on the ground. Remember reason i mentioned make mobs/content strong is in retaliation to a worry about them spawning too fast if it takes longer to kill them that balances out this idea you need to rest for double the amount of time...
You think having a fair fight sounds like a korean mmorpg lol? Effectively you are again trying to say ganking is pvx gameplay. In any game in relating to PvP you need to remove elements of ganking as a benefit and lead it more towards a fair fight, obviously you can't do that fully and that is fine. But that is important so people are more willing to fight and not just corrupt another player on top of other reasons.
Ganking is not the pinnacle of what PvX gameplay can do.
Back to spawns, so if spawns can be increased as a solution e we don't need player resting for 30 seconds and that can be 15. If we are talking about valuable drops from mobs you can reduce the drop rate and have the mobs spawn slightly faster. Players resting for some amount of seconds in terms of mob spawn time shouldn't make a difference, the difference should be made in the difficulty of the content which will cost much more time than players rest.
Hence increasing and constant resting times don't add anything to the game that can't be solved with more appropriate methods.
The entire point of having majority of content in the open world (with owpvp) is that you can be attacked while clearing said content. Steven's entire spiel of "there's no reward w/o risk" means exactly that most of the time.
If you want to have pvp separated from pve, you will not enjoy majority of the game's pve, because it won't just be pve and pvp separate - it's gonna be pvx.
I guess BDO truly never had proper owpvp, cause it definitely seems that you've never played a game with that feature. Or, at the very least, it seems strange for you to like and keep following Ashes if you have in fact played a game like that and disliked it for that exact feature.
As for having a design that's worth to be called pvx, I already talked about it before. Players should have tools to utilize mobs to their own advantage in case a pvp fight starts during pve. Redirection of aggro, repositioning of mobs, retargeting of mobs, controlled enrage triggers, pacifying tools, redirection of dmg onto another player - all of these can be used in a pvx situation and, in a way, make the situation itself pvx, because there's no separation of mobs and players.
I want a better game than what we've seen before and what you seem to be basing your assumption on.
Are you purposely not trying to understand what I'm saying??
That more linage2 pvp must have boiled down to you just gank people and no one was looking for actual fights. And a reason why they are adding anti ganking parts in AoC leaning towards what I'm saying.
In fact AoC might not be for you if you are use to just ganking people and calling that PvX gameplay, and why you were hesitant to buy int the alpha x.x.
You say you are a PvX mmorpg player, yet think pvx gameplay pinnacle is ganking. I think you might be misreading AoC intention as they mentioned there is going to be objectives for players for guild wars. That means we aren't talking about PvX gameplay being in the most basic unskilled element is just ganking.
But hey if you need PvX to be mainly about ganking (with heavy advantage) and having the gameplay dumbed down to each is their own. I'll be supporting elements that can actually push it forward with more complex objective designs and proper fights.
I see why you don't consider yourself a pvper, having your gameplay desire to be around ganking doesn't fit you in pve or pvp really.
You are misdirecting the whole point. Being able to attack each other other without limit during a war as absolutely nothing to do with taking away the fact they are looking for more from PvP than just ganking,
Your idea of PvX doesn't seem to match what they are going for because you are seeking the lowest level of PvX in terms of saying it needs to happen at the same time in the way of ganking.
Again I really don't think you have gotten deep into any pvp in mmorpgs as of recent lately. PvX is both threats PvE and PvP,. When ganking is involved with the reason to simply kill people or claim a spot that shift towards PvP. The focus of players is not doing the PvE content but dealing with the threat of player. That means people focus on fighting and not this mix of PvX like you keep saying.
An objective + the difficulty of the mobs besides being just sponges or attack bots change that flow of combat. That flow needs players to have resources in their pool based on those types of fights lasting a lot longer. This will shift towards PvP if your pools are running low from killing a few mobs as you will have no choice but to use resources against players as you have nothing to spare. This is why making sure things are FAIR is important as it helps increase PvP + PvE giving players more options.
Your idea of PvX being ganking is not thrilling or special, that doesn't lean to a fusion of both content together. It is just PvP.
There is no reason to hamper people by overly long resting. The extra time spent resting BOTH can be solved by increasing spawn rates and increasing the difficulty slightly of different areas to make up for the reduced time of resting. IF the issue if just some extra seconds needed to mobs will spawn faster.
You don't need to force players to have dead time to solve that kind of issue. Play rest can be made organically through talking about upcoming challenges and preparing without a forced increased resting time.
You are free to try to argue reduced spawn times and increased challenges (to increase the time to kill the mobs by 15+ seconds) can not solve that issue though of them spawning if the extra time needed was 15 seconds.
And now just imagine a game where those og farmers have the tools to turn their limited resources into a proper threat, by simply redirecting the mob onto the attackers. And now it's the ever-so-spooky gankers that are at a disadvantage, because they're not only flagged (which means CCs from the victims), but now also have to deal with a strong mob that's gonna make them hurt if they don't play well enough.
Rest and recuperation allow for fun/interesting mechanics from offsets derived from player skills, buffs and crafting. Brings more depth and interaction.
i.e. going to the inn to get a +25% out of combat hp/mana buff for the next 2 hours. et al.
Stop trying to speak for Steven when they are already added in elements to support players being ganked so they aren't at a disadvantage. The one im saying has no clue what they are talking about is you right now.
Also feel free to quote when where is aid fights need to happen with 0 mobs around you literally are refusing to understand what is being said because you simply just want to gank people that are almost dead lmao, and not allow them to be able to properly challenge you.
Doesn't mater how you word it the people ganking have the advantage, trying to meta game a scenario where they can possible lose has nothing to do with the disccusion. Even more so you are missing the point and just talking about general pvp at this point. If you are fightign a mob and have used most your resources (mana) You aren't doing much of anything over a prolonged pvp fight where attackers have full everything..
Hence the point would be you saying they can try to get aggro on attackers as they are beating you down will be hard when you don't have the mana or skills up to do that for your whole group. And why im for people having resources and not being drained from 2 fights so easily.
People should have the ability to fight back and not for it to be one sided. Something the devs clearly agree with based on implementation within the game.
Just to make this point extra clear because you aren't getting it since you want one side to be weakened. Anything you can do the other team can do PLUS more. You are trying to say you are going to redirect the mob on attackers that could be on Cd making you unable to do that else risking your healer dying. The attackers can do the same exact thing to you right back as well while being full mana, life and CDS.
We'll see in Q3.
Agreed that is the point just needs to be a bit faster and its fine imo. Slower would be the wrong direction which is what my points are directed towards.
The thing about pve is that it is dependent on so many things - class, play style, skill, BUFFS, GEAR. I tend to always find the most efficient way to do things, so making it so you don't have to sit to heal after a hard group with adds means I'm playing a prettier version of a game like Diablo.
Next time don't fight alone. Have enough potions (artisans need work too) have healers in your team and professions which can speed up mana regeneration.
And don't fight with NPCs which are at the upper limit of what you can kill as if nobody else can harm you unless you accept the risk of being driven away from the farming spot.
- How long is the downtime? I think 30 seconds is too long personally if the sole purpose is to replenish Hp/Mana.
- Versatility of the food buffs. I like the idea of people having a "well fed" buff which offers more passive regen (out of combat, or in and out, but diminished in combat) - after eating for a longer period (or maybe in certain places like in an Inn in a city, on a freehold etc. - but you can have food for a sit-down recovery which offers no well fed buff, but offers the quicker replenishment (and at best, the quickest over any for top tier food).
- Economy. Naturally more gold sinks is better for moving money around the economy right? Food will have buffs I am sure but if the normal regen food also has to be made and sold be players then I don't hate the sound of that.
- Inventory space. I suppose the way that regeneration is balanced will determine how much food you need to carry, just "food for thought".
I think that I don't mind resting for regen as long as it doesn't interfere with the gameplay too much. And I suppose food serving its purpose can diminish that downtime.
you had a realy shitty mana/health regen in general. but you could find campfires that drasticly increased the out of combat reg and gave a dmg buff for melee attacks.
once placed the stayed for i think 10 min or so.
it was also nice because the best xp spots where in the pvp zones. so if you saw a campfire you know there could be a group around and start hunting them or avoid the "taken" mob camp.
i think something like that could be a nice addition.
nodes could sell the campfires and crafters could build better ones.
I am curious to see if out of combat regen is something a Bard could address to increase their value to a group.
Regen pots for the economy etc.
No one said 0 resting....People are saying extended rest times are not needed.
This I would say is what Im basically saying as well.
Make the game challenging enough that it will drain you naturally on its own. That way, the rest and recover time happens naturally because the game is great. No artificial injection of rest needed.
If we can hit cruise control and coast through. Dial it up so we can't.
Remember the point of discussion is the amount of time you are resting. People that say 20+ seconds + it being constant is not what i agree on..
This is one those things thats hard to pin down in seconds, for me at least. I guess its going to come down to pacing and feel once we are in there.
To me, it would make sense to have to rest after venturing for 3 hours straight. It could serve as a window for people to stretch their legs and take a quick break. Maybe after 3 hours of PvP or PvE (even woodcutting), it would be acceptable to rest for 5 minutes; otherwise, the character would always be tired.
This mechanic would give parties the opportunity to decide when to rest, allowing them to rest together, much like real-life armies do. It could also be enjoyable to do this together, cooking food, eating, having a chat with the boys, and taking a short break. People could have their well-deserved breaks in real life.
I'm still not sure if I would be super stoked about it, but at least it is simple and people would understand it.