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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Also, I feel like it is important to touch on the context (as some have done above).
1) The character was a mage. Mages should be all about resouce management. You either blast the living crap out of stuff - at the cost of having to rest after - or you take it slow and steady. In the end, both should result in roughly the same time - but one is high intensity with rest afterwards while the other one is much more even. Kind of like a sprinter vs. a marathon runner!
2) Assuming we get support classes that affect mana regen, having too quick out-of-combat mana regen will definitely nerf their usefulness in anything that is not long boss fights or PvP battles. I feel like a bard (or summoner) should be a great companion to any player that wants to spend less time resting, even in a more casual setting than big battles.
3) The player was by himself most of the time. Obviously, if he brought a group of any kind (even a small one) the pulls could be much more even.
Personally, I thought the phase of it looked great for a single mage in a regular commission zone.
Short answer:
This looks okay. 30 seconds from empty to full solo seems about right. For Ashes, I think I prefer an active resting mode to passive out of combat regen.
Long answer with some examples:
GW2 has a very rapid CoD style health regen out of combat. This was very good for the overall casual experience GW2 wants to give. Go into combat, press buttons, and run straight into the next mob. While the system is fairly intuitive, it makes for a somewhat gamey experience.
Would GW2 be better off with forced rest breaks? I don't think so. Much of the game is designed about a constant flow of tiny rewards and how smoothly the player can navigate from one reward to the next. Recovery breaks would fight against the overall game design.
DDO would be somewhere on the other end of the spectrum, where (at least early on), you don't get anything back between fights outside of rest shrines and whatever items and spells you have. If you are out, you are out, and every point of damage counts.
This design works for DDO because it deters players from just rushing through all the encounters. Instead, the player is incentivized to aproach the scenarios with a DnD mindset. Everything about the environment is more tense, and hazards and traps matter even if they don't instantly kill. I'm not sure if resources are as much of a probblem during endgame, but I never played DDO to that point.
Outside of MMOs, a good contrast is the extraction genre, like Dark and Darker. Some classes need to stop periodically to refresh between fights, and healing is always a deliberate action that takes time (and is not always even available).
Would fast out of combat regen make for a better experience? Not really. Having to spend time healing makes getting hit hard a big deal, since it makes you a target for other players. If healing was free and easy between encounters, the overall atmosphere would be much less oppressive. Also, actively having to sit down to meditate enhances the experience since it plays into the overall dungeon crawl feeling. Regaining spells is not always just a forced break, but rather a tense moment where you try to gauge if the ring is catching up on you and oh fuck, you hear a skeleton creeping nearby...
Then what about Ashes?
While GW2 style regen would not ruin the game, I think recovering as an active activity meshes better with the rest of the game. I think Ashes in general is trying to be less about moment to moment dopamine hits, and instead more about trying to achieve longer term goals. How I see it:
Finally, for PvP design, I don't like when being briefly out of combat is a reset. There's something very whack-a-mole about having to completely kill someone before they escape, or they will be back with full life in 10 seconds. While it does feel good to narrowly avoid death and then being able to return back to the fight with little downtime, it reminds me I'm playing a game instead of fighting for my life in a fantasy world.
Yeah, I would also like to see what you are describing. No matter what you do, the game should eventually drain you to the point that you have to stop and recover.
It should take a few minutes, otherwise it just feels cumbersome. But downtime definitely needs to happen, it adds valuable change of pace to a game session.
I love games like PoE and Warframe (I have tons of hours in both), but the zoomer lifestyle causes me to need very long breaks.
Both teams standing around honestly has nothing to do with not forcing players to rest for 30+ seconds their is no link here...
You have also mentioned 30 seconds at this point so yes that adds up to many many minutes. Id you are fighting every 2-3 min and resting for 30 seconds per fight that is ridiculous. Your whole point is if they are forced to rest more mobs will spawn so clearly it has to be a substantial amount in the eyes of the player. Even if that amount in the game is little in comparison to mob spawn. My whole point on this discussion has been long constant rest times (in eyes of the player) that some people have been saying is good, including you.
Or you can sit for 15 seconds and not 30 seconds....
That isn't really PvX that is just ganking there is no motivation to do both at the same time. IF you know a group is coming to PvP you you aren't going to be pulling mobs you are going to be focused on killing the player (unless the players so weak they don't matter and are not heat).
I say that isn't PvX because you are trying to view it as you are doing both the same time and in that setting you generally aren't you will focus on what is the biggest threat, which is generally the player. PvX is more of player, monster or both at the same time. The moment it becomes both a player will focus against the player and the pve will become less important until the threat is gone.
If it is going to be PvX in how you are trying to say it has to be at the same time, there needs to be objectives and not just killing mobs for loot, but things that force you to do both at the same time. Ganking is just ganking its nothing special or thrilling it is just something hat adds more overall danger and normal for pvp.
I've never heard in my life someone call themselves a Pvxer. This is another thing of you saying something but not fully grasping that kind of matching what I was saying above what would be needed. Ganking doesn't make you a pvxer, you are simply saying players having an advantage is what makes someone a pvexer. Which that feels kind of shallow.
The way you are describing it "being risky as hell" leads players to focus on the PvP element and again deal with the threat first so they aren't dropping all their loot on the ground. Remember reason i mentioned make mobs/content strong is in retaliation to a worry about them spawning too fast if it takes longer to kill them that balances out this idea you need to rest for double the amount of time...
You think having a fair fight sounds like a korean mmorpg lol? Effectively you are again trying to say ganking is pvx gameplay. In any game in relating to PvP you need to remove elements of ganking as a benefit and lead it more towards a fair fight, obviously you can't do that fully and that is fine. But that is important so people are more willing to fight and not just corrupt another player on top of other reasons.
Ganking is not the pinnacle of what PvX gameplay can do.
Back to spawns, so if spawns can be increased as a solution e we don't need player resting for 30 seconds and that can be 15. If we are talking about valuable drops from mobs you can reduce the drop rate and have the mobs spawn slightly faster. Players resting for some amount of seconds in terms of mob spawn time shouldn't make a difference, the difference should be made in the difficulty of the content which will cost much more time than players rest.
Hence increasing and constant resting times don't add anything to the game that can't be solved with more appropriate methods.
The entire point of having majority of content in the open world (with owpvp) is that you can be attacked while clearing said content. Steven's entire spiel of "there's no reward w/o risk" means exactly that most of the time.
If you want to have pvp separated from pve, you will not enjoy majority of the game's pve, because it won't just be pve and pvp separate - it's gonna be pvx.
I guess BDO truly never had proper owpvp, cause it definitely seems that you've never played a game with that feature. Or, at the very least, it seems strange for you to like and keep following Ashes if you have in fact played a game like that and disliked it for that exact feature.
As for having a design that's worth to be called pvx, I already talked about it before. Players should have tools to utilize mobs to their own advantage in case a pvp fight starts during pve. Redirection of aggro, repositioning of mobs, retargeting of mobs, controlled enrage triggers, pacifying tools, redirection of dmg onto another player - all of these can be used in a pvx situation and, in a way, make the situation itself pvx, because there's no separation of mobs and players.
I want a better game than what we've seen before and what you seem to be basing your assumption on.
Are you purposely not trying to understand what I'm saying??
That more linage2 pvp must have boiled down to you just gank people and no one was looking for actual fights. And a reason why they are adding anti ganking parts in AoC leaning towards what I'm saying.
In fact AoC might not be for you if you are use to just ganking people and calling that PvX gameplay, and why you were hesitant to buy int the alpha x.x.
You say you are a PvX mmorpg player, yet think pvx gameplay pinnacle is ganking. I think you might be misreading AoC intention as they mentioned there is going to be objectives for players for guild wars. That means we aren't talking about PvX gameplay being in the most basic unskilled element is just ganking.
But hey if you need PvX to be mainly about ganking (with heavy advantage) and having the gameplay dumbed down to each is their own. I'll be supporting elements that can actually push it forward with more complex objective designs and proper fights.
I see why you don't consider yourself a pvper, having your gameplay desire to be around ganking doesn't fit you in pve or pvp really.
You are misdirecting the whole point. Being able to attack each other other without limit during a war as absolutely nothing to do with taking away the fact they are looking for more from PvP than just ganking,
Your idea of PvX doesn't seem to match what they are going for because you are seeking the lowest level of PvX in terms of saying it needs to happen at the same time in the way of ganking.
Again I really don't think you have gotten deep into any pvp in mmorpgs as of recent lately. PvX is both threats PvE and PvP,. When ganking is involved with the reason to simply kill people or claim a spot that shift towards PvP. The focus of players is not doing the PvE content but dealing with the threat of player. That means people focus on fighting and not this mix of PvX like you keep saying.
An objective + the difficulty of the mobs besides being just sponges or attack bots change that flow of combat. That flow needs players to have resources in their pool based on those types of fights lasting a lot longer. This will shift towards PvP if your pools are running low from killing a few mobs as you will have no choice but to use resources against players as you have nothing to spare. This is why making sure things are FAIR is important as it helps increase PvP + PvE giving players more options.
Your idea of PvX being ganking is not thrilling or special, that doesn't lean to a fusion of both content together. It is just PvP.
There is no reason to hamper people by overly long resting. The extra time spent resting BOTH can be solved by increasing spawn rates and increasing the difficulty slightly of different areas to make up for the reduced time of resting. IF the issue if just some extra seconds needed to mobs will spawn faster.
You don't need to force players to have dead time to solve that kind of issue. Play rest can be made organically through talking about upcoming challenges and preparing without a forced increased resting time.
You are free to try to argue reduced spawn times and increased challenges (to increase the time to kill the mobs by 15+ seconds) can not solve that issue though of them spawning if the extra time needed was 15 seconds.
And now just imagine a game where those og farmers have the tools to turn their limited resources into a proper threat, by simply redirecting the mob onto the attackers. And now it's the ever-so-spooky gankers that are at a disadvantage, because they're not only flagged (which means CCs from the victims), but now also have to deal with a strong mob that's gonna make them hurt if they don't play well enough.
Rest and recuperation allow for fun/interesting mechanics from offsets derived from player skills, buffs and crafting. Brings more depth and interaction.
i.e. going to the inn to get a +25% out of combat hp/mana buff for the next 2 hours. et al.
Stop trying to speak for Steven when they are already added in elements to support players being ganked so they aren't at a disadvantage. The one im saying has no clue what they are talking about is you right now.
Also feel free to quote when where is aid fights need to happen with 0 mobs around you literally are refusing to understand what is being said because you simply just want to gank people that are almost dead lmao, and not allow them to be able to properly challenge you.
Doesn't mater how you word it the people ganking have the advantage, trying to meta game a scenario where they can possible lose has nothing to do with the disccusion. Even more so you are missing the point and just talking about general pvp at this point. If you are fightign a mob and have used most your resources (mana) You aren't doing much of anything over a prolonged pvp fight where attackers have full everything..
Hence the point would be you saying they can try to get aggro on attackers as they are beating you down will be hard when you don't have the mana or skills up to do that for your whole group. And why im for people having resources and not being drained from 2 fights so easily.
People should have the ability to fight back and not for it to be one sided. Something the devs clearly agree with based on implementation within the game.
Just to make this point extra clear because you aren't getting it since you want one side to be weakened. Anything you can do the other team can do PLUS more. You are trying to say you are going to redirect the mob on attackers that could be on Cd making you unable to do that else risking your healer dying. The attackers can do the same exact thing to you right back as well while being full mana, life and CDS.
We'll see in Q3.
Agreed that is the point just needs to be a bit faster and its fine imo. Slower would be the wrong direction which is what my points are directed towards.
The thing about pve is that it is dependent on so many things - class, play style, skill, BUFFS, GEAR. I tend to always find the most efficient way to do things, so making it so you don't have to sit to heal after a hard group with adds means I'm playing a prettier version of a game like Diablo.
Next time don't fight alone. Have enough potions (artisans need work too) have healers in your team and professions which can speed up mana regeneration.
And don't fight with NPCs which are at the upper limit of what you can kill as if nobody else can harm you unless you accept the risk of being driven away from the farming spot.
- How long is the downtime? I think 30 seconds is too long personally if the sole purpose is to replenish Hp/Mana.
- Versatility of the food buffs. I like the idea of people having a "well fed" buff which offers more passive regen (out of combat, or in and out, but diminished in combat) - after eating for a longer period (or maybe in certain places like in an Inn in a city, on a freehold etc. - but you can have food for a sit-down recovery which offers no well fed buff, but offers the quicker replenishment (and at best, the quickest over any for top tier food).
- Economy. Naturally more gold sinks is better for moving money around the economy right? Food will have buffs I am sure but if the normal regen food also has to be made and sold be players then I don't hate the sound of that.
- Inventory space. I suppose the way that regeneration is balanced will determine how much food you need to carry, just "food for thought".
I think that I don't mind resting for regen as long as it doesn't interfere with the gameplay too much. And I suppose food serving its purpose can diminish that downtime.
you had a realy shitty mana/health regen in general. but you could find campfires that drasticly increased the out of combat reg and gave a dmg buff for melee attacks.
once placed the stayed for i think 10 min or so.
it was also nice because the best xp spots where in the pvp zones. so if you saw a campfire you know there could be a group around and start hunting them or avoid the "taken" mob camp.
i think something like that could be a nice addition.
nodes could sell the campfires and crafters could build better ones.
I am curious to see if out of combat regen is something a Bard could address to increase their value to a group.
Regen pots for the economy etc.
No one said 0 resting....People are saying extended rest times are not needed.
This I would say is what Im basically saying as well.
Make the game challenging enough that it will drain you naturally on its own. That way, the rest and recover time happens naturally because the game is great. No artificial injection of rest needed.
If we can hit cruise control and coast through. Dial it up so we can't.
Remember the point of discussion is the amount of time you are resting. People that say 20+ seconds + it being constant is not what i agree on..
This is one those things thats hard to pin down in seconds, for me at least. I guess its going to come down to pacing and feel once we are in there.
To me, it would make sense to have to rest after venturing for 3 hours straight. It could serve as a window for people to stretch their legs and take a quick break. Maybe after 3 hours of PvP or PvE (even woodcutting), it would be acceptable to rest for 5 minutes; otherwise, the character would always be tired.
This mechanic would give parties the opportunity to decide when to rest, allowing them to rest together, much like real-life armies do. It could also be enjoyable to do this together, cooking food, eating, having a chat with the boys, and taking a short break. People could have their well-deserved breaks in real life.
I'm still not sure if I would be super stoked about it, but at least it is simple and people would understand it.