Battlepass with cosmetics does one of three things.
1, it takes developer time.
2, it takes additional developers, which just results in the above.
3, it uses cosmetics that would have ended up in the store without a battlepass, which again results in the first point.
Thus, the only way battlepass in Ashes makes sense is if people would pay more to get the same item via battlepass than via cosmetic shop.
I personally don't think enough people are that stupid.
When I played vanilla Fortnite it was Save the World
Keep in mind - Fortnite is widely derided for its monetization strategy, and has lost over half a billion dollars in law suits it has lost - and that is only the ones it has lost so far, more are in the works.
While it may be easy to say it was only aspects of monetization that are at fault, all of Fortnites monetization is a single system, designed with the deception and addiction that they are being sued with in mind.
When it comes to monetization, "but Fortnite do it" is absolutely not an argument to do something. However, "because Fortnite do it" is most definitely an argument to not do it.
So I have no idea why this thread has so many posts.
(and I even had the chance to quote the largest post ever - I got no achievement though)
Most of the posts are about why people like or dislike Battlepasses.
The vid you posted is from 2018, the first year of development.
Battlepasses have become quite popular in the last 5 years.
2018 is a year or more before Intrepid developed their Battlepass for APOC.
Everything is subject to change. Except no P2W.
Battlepass fits in with a quarterly release of content.
And it's not unusual for Battlepasses to have a free path as well as a premium/paid path.
So... Battlepass is not a major tweak of those quotes.
Wiki states that "Ashes of Creation Apocalypse was free-to-play.[15][16]"
and it seems that it was designed from the beginning with Battle passes in mind: "There will be an optional Legendary Path that players can purchase for USD $10 per 10 weeks.[79][81]"
and most likely without DLCs.
pcgamer say
"
... Gun Mettle Campaign Pass in Team Fortress 2 in 2015, which did grant access to some new maps like a more traditional DLC, but also offered daily challenges that would grant cosmetics if you completed them.
...
2016 ushered in the official arrival of the battle pass
Since then it has just grown and grown, even adding brand new game modes that could have easily been sold as substantial DLC.
...
Valve has decided to stop doing them in Dota 2 entirely. "Battle Pass season has grown to be a tremendously exciting time in Dota," the statement says. "But it leaves the rest of the year feeling barren by comparison."
...
Whether you like them or loathe them, battle passes are here to stay as long as they remain so powerfully effective—or until someone invents an even better hook for keeping us logging in daily and reaching for our wallets.
"
So the Battle Pass would be a major tweak to the statement from 2018.
It makes no sense to have both DLC and Battle Pass.
For cosmetics, the Battle Pass is not necessary. GW2 has them too and they rotate them every few weeks, sometime they have discounts too and the store works fine.
For new content, DLCs were promised. That leaves Battle Passes without purpose except "for keeping us logging in daily and reaching for our wallets".
I want to login daily because the game is fun all the time not because developers make the game fun only during a Battle Pass. I don't need Battle Passes. I don't need DLCs either but if they insist to make them using the monthly subscription, so be it. I would prefer frequent granular updates instead which fit with a living world and nodes being destroyed and built again.
People who need Battle Passes are probably players who cannot commit to one game only. They play several games and switch between them, knowing they do not lose anything important while there is no battle pass.
And they cannot commit because those games are made intentionally that way, to be more interesting when a BP is released.
If you get the rewards from the Cash Shop, they will definitely be more expensive than the $10 in the Cash Shop because the Battlepass is a discount.
To me it's about that difference. It's obvious that devs spend the same time to make more expensive cosmetics as they spend making cheaper ones. So why should players pay more for the same work?
Usually things go on sale when it's obvious that the thing being sold has run out of its general worth, so people will only buy it at a high discount. Quite often shops will increase the cost of the thing right before the put it on sale, as well. This is not really the case with games, but the first point still stands.
Having a BP right at the game's release means that the game's worth will have been spent even before the game came out. And if the cosmetics in the BP are even relatively close in quality to the ones being sold directly - the BP sales will take away profits from those cosmetics, at a much higher dev cost (cause they'll have to develop a ton of cosmetics for the BP, as opposed to making just one).
He says another great example is Deep Rock Galactic - which is pretty much how the Fortnite Battlepass works. Also NW. And the WoW Season Pass is kinda similar.
Don't all three of those have seasonal BPs that then remove the cosmetics forever? I watched several more videos about the BPs and people have said that Fortnite doesn't sell cosmetics from the previous BPs.
DRG not only keeps them forever, but even gets them into the gameplay sources, if I understood the comments correctly.
You can view it as a seasonal discount. Else you need to use the same agreement if the store has something for 50% off and say they are fing over people cause now its on sale.
I addressed this above. I don't want the game to come out at "a seasonal discount" on parts of its content.
Battle passes seem like a shortcut that some gaming companies defaulted to instead of having a monthly subscription model.
I get it. It's easier to charge for a game pass once a year/quarter than it is to ask for a month-over-month subscription fee for about the same price.
For game passes that offer solely cosmetics I'm less likely to purchase. I do buy more game passes that are more content related.
I think I'm done with it at this point, people are making up things at this point for their arguments that make 0 sense. I make as well read a book if I want to see people making things up.
I make as well read a book if I want to see people making things up.
I recommend Brandon Sanderson's books My lights have been going out again, so I finally got back to listening to Elantris. An amazing book. Highly recommend GraphicAudio's version of the audiobook
p.s. I did read the og response, just chose not to respond to it.
I think I'm done with it at this point, people are making up things at this point for their arguments that make 0 sense. I make as well read a book if I want to see people making things up.
I've seen your big post before you removed it
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
To me it's about that difference. It's obvious that devs spend the same time to make more expensive cosmetics as they spend making cheaper ones. So why should players pay more for the same work?
Players aren't paying more for the same work, rather they are paying less for the same work.
Usually things go on sale when it's obvious that the thing being sold has run out of its general worth, so people will only buy it at a high discount. Quite often shops will increase the cost of the thing right before the put it on sale, as well. This is not really the case with games, but the first point still stands.
Maybe.
I don't pay enough attention to the Shops to know much about items going on sale in general.
Like I said, I only buy something from the NW and WoW shops about once per year - and it's not a discount that draws me in.
With Fortnite, new stuff rotates in and out of the Shop daily and we can't really be sure when it will rotate in again, so... can't really hope for or anticipate something being discounted. Best to buy it when you see it if you want it.
Although, there's way too much stuff that I want, so I do often let items slide by and hope they will return in a few weeks or months.
And if the cosmetics in the BP are even relatively close in quality to the ones being sold directly - the BP sales will take away profits from those cosmetics, at a much higher dev cost (cause they'll have to develop a ton of cosmetics for the BP, as opposed to making just one).
We've already seen how the Cosmetics will work with the APOC BP.
It's not a much higher dev cost. And it's not really "much higher quality"; it's just variations on a theme - AND -
The Cosmetics versions will be easily recognizable compared to similar in-game Cosmetics.
Don't all three of those have seasonal BPs that then remove the cosmetics forever? I watched several more videos about the BPs and people have said that Fortnite doesn't sell cosmetics from the previous BPs.
Fortnite has a disclaimer that says some items may later appear in the Item Shop.
And NW and WoW have items that can return again the following year around the same time.
I think the Marvel Comics Season rotates into Fortnite every couple of years.
DRG not only keeps them forever, but even gets them into the gameplay sources, if I understood the comments correctly.
The video posted states: The Performance Pass runs for several months and during, all players are able to earn rewards along a linear track. This tends to bring back veteran players and new players into the fold on a Seasonal basis. And more players playing the game makes matchmaking feel better.
Once the Performance Pass season ends, the rewards can't be obtained by playing the game anymore. But they maaaayyy in the future eventually be added to the Cash Shop. This means that the Performance Pass items maintain their rarity and uniqueness for many months - perhaps even many years - and that feels great for gamers.
And, sometime down the line, you might be able to purchase them flat out for real world money if you missed out on earning them - which is great for both the gamers and the game's developers.
That's how modern Battlepasses work - Fortnite, NW and WoW among them.
That pretty much describes, in a nutshell, exactly what I've been telling you this entire thread.
(I'm not sure what you mean by "getting them into the gameplay sources").
I think I'm done with it at this point, people are making up things at this point for their arguments that make 0 sense. I make as well read a book if I want to see people making things up.
You should have just gone with an argument of "I like it, even if I can't justify it".
The reasons behind a battlepass are undefensible. That is the basis of the point I (and others, I assume) are making.
If you like the end result, cool, you are allowed to like it.
What you can't do though, not when people like myself are around, is successfully defend it.
That's how modern Battlepasses work - Fortnite, NW and WoW among them.
That pretty much describes, in a nutshell, exactly what I've been telling you this entire thread.
(I'm not sure what you mean by "getting them into the gameplay sources").
He made a mistake and was corrected in the comments
If Intrepid did this kind of BP - I'd have fewer issues with it. Though I'd still be asking why even have it, if it's completely free and then also goes into other game systems.
Players aren't paying more for the same work, rather they are paying less for the same work.
I don't think you directly answered this question from before.
Do you expect Ashes to not have a direct cosmetic purchase store at all?
Because if we have a direct store - you think that any cosmetic there will be priced the same way as the monthly bundle cosmetics were, right? Which means that they'll cost $5-25. And with the BP having multiple cosmetics for, presumably, $10 - this means that anyone buying a cosmetic from the direct store will be getting fucked over, cause they'll be overpaying by upwards of x20 more for one item.
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ApokMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Even if the BP is made to where it's 100% monetization and fomo free, there's still no point in it. MMORPGs have quests, events, raids, gathering, and crafting for anything they could have in a BP.
And what options do you have in a BP that you should already get a reward for doing regardless of the BP. like go kill 20/20 of this mob, instead how about just go kill stuff to sell on the market for income and that's your reward?
now with that being said, you also have a lot of system that interact with each other from mobs and their drops, crafting, balancing, etc. would you rather have devs sitting down to discuss those things or a battle pass
same goes for the UI, do you want the UI team working on the actual games UI or do you want them working on some flashy battle pass UI.
even if a game has a lot of funding, you only have so much labor
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Wiki states that "Ashes of Creation Apocalypse was free-to-play.[15][16]"
and it seems that it was designed from the beginning with Battle passes in mind: "There will be an optional Legendary Path that players can purchase for USD $10 per 10 weeks.[79][81]"
and most likely without DLCs.
I mean... the wiki is great and all - but it does kinda help to have been around for the entirety of Ashes' development.
APOC had a Free Path and an optional (paid) Legendary Path.
APOC planned to introduce Siege Mode and Horde Mode as DLCs, but... ended testing before they did so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGbqQ1QpD3U
So the Battle Pass would be a major tweak to the statement from 2018.
It makes no sense to have both DLC and Battle Pass.
For cosmetics, the Battle Pass is not necessary. GW2 has them too and they rotate them every few weeks, sometime they have discounts too and the store works fine.
For new content, DLCs were promised. That leaves Battle Passes without purpose except "for keeping us logging in daily and reaching for our wallets".
Battlepass is a form of DLC. It's not really a major tweak. Especially not after the APOC BP in 2019.
I want to login daily because the game is fun all the time not because developers make the game fun only during a Battle Pass. I don't need Battle Passes. I don't need DLCs either but if they insist to make them using the monthly subscription, so be it. I would prefer frequent granular updates instead which fit with a living world and nodes being destroyed and built again.
Sure. Everyone wants that. Typically, 75% of the player population stops playing once they hit Max Level.
And return when new content drops - but typically it takes 12-18+ months for an Expansion, while Battlepasses drop new content every 3 months. And the population spikes at least 3x at the beginning of a new Season.
Steven hopes Nodes will make it so that a Battlepass isn't needed. I've said several times that I don't think a Battlepass will be needed. Hopefully, Nodes will be succussful, but...
Steven still plans to drop new content every Season - and that has most successfully been achieved with Battlepasses. I'm not aware of other MMORPGs that have managed Seasonal content drops without it being in the form of a Battlepass.
Ashes doesn't need a Battlepass.
I expect Ashes will have a Battlepass. Especially since the currently stated model is sub + Cosmetics Shop.
(And because Intrepid already had a successful BP with APOC - also while they had the Cosmetics Shop)
People who need Battle Passes are probably players who cannot commit to one game only. They play several games and switch between them, knowing they do not lose anything important while there is no battle pass.
And they cannot commit because those games are made intentionally that way, to be more interesting when a BP is released.
Battlepasses appeal to players who are motivated by story and Cosmetics, rather than by combat and BiS gear. The masses of MMORPG players who typically stop playing after they hit Max Level and are waiting for new content to drop before they play again.
They cannot commit because MMORPGs run out of new content in 3 months and then players have to wait 9-15 months or more for the next expansion. If new content arrives every 3 months, you can expect fans of that game to return to play whenever the new content drops.
If the BP is nothing but cosmetics, I say let them be sold to let people help pay for new content. As long as they are not required for progression. why care?
I'm sick and tired of all the monetization in games, but I understand why they need some in free to play. A box price and/or subscription should be plenty, everything else should be earned in game. Ashes opted for the kickstarter/pre order packs, a sub fee and cash shop, which is more than enough. Battle passes are obnoxious and I refuse to pay for them. I'd rather choose skins I like directly from the shop and be able to use them once I have a specific item/character it applies to. Why would you make me pay AND grind levels to use them as if I was just unlocking them normally in game?
So the Battle Pass would be a major tweak to the statement from 2018.
It makes no sense to have both DLC and Battle Pass.
For cosmetics, the Battle Pass is not necessary. GW2 has them too and they rotate them every few weeks, sometime they have discounts too and the store works fine.
For new content, DLCs were promised. That leaves Battle Passes without purpose except "for keeping us logging in daily and reaching for our wallets".
Battlepass is a form of DLC. It's not really a major tweak. Especially not after the APOC BP in 2019.
Ok so let's use the word DLC then.
I say for an MMORPG they are exactly the same, not just "a form".
Why use a different name for an MMORPG?
Wiki states that "Ashes of Creation Apocalypse was free-to-play.[15][16]"
and it seems that it was designed from the beginning with Battle passes in mind: "There will be an optional Legendary Path that players can purchase for USD $10 per 10 weeks.[79][81]"
and most likely without DLCs.
I mean... the wiki is great and all - but it does kinda help to have been around for the entirety of Ashes' development.
APOC had a Free Path and an optional (paid) Legendary Path.
APOC planned to introduce Siege Mode and Horde Mode as DLCs, but... ended testing before they did so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGbqQ1QpD3U
Your argument was that it was an old statement: "The vid you posted is from 2018, the first year of development."
The wiki shows that both statements were made close to each-other, the same year. For the free game which was a battle royale they used payed updates (Legendary Path)
For the subscription based game they said the updates will be free on top of the subscription.
I want to login daily because the game is fun all the time not because developers make the game fun only during a Battle Pass. I don't need Battle Passes. I don't need DLCs either but if they insist to make them using the monthly subscription, so be it. I would prefer frequent granular updates instead which fit with a living world and nodes being destroyed and built again.
Sure. Everyone wants that. Typically, 75% of the player population stops playing once they hit Max Level.
And return when new content drops - but typically it takes 12-18+ months for an Expansion, while Battlepasses drop new content every 3 months. And the population spikes at least 3x at the beginning of a new Season.
Steven hopes Nodes will make it so that a Battlepass isn't needed. I've said several times that I don't think a Battlepass will be needed. Hopefully, Nodes will be succussful, but...
Steven still plans to drop new content every Season - and that has most successfully been achieved with Battlepasses. I'm not aware of other MMORPGs that have managed Seasonal content drops without it being in the form of a Battlepass.
Ashes doesn't need a Battlepass.
I expect Ashes will have a Battlepass. Especially since the currently stated model is sub + Cosmetics Shop.
(And because Intrepid already had a successful BP with APOC - also while they had the Cosmetics Shop)
They tried to monetize the free game and to collect even more money, with a buggy game, presenting it as an Early Access.
Just because they look the same and are made by the same people, does not mean you can expect they will use the same monetization if they said they will not.
People who need Battle Passes are probably players who cannot commit to one game only. They play several games and switch between them, knowing they do not lose anything important while there is no battle pass.
And they cannot commit because those games are made intentionally that way, to be more interesting when a BP is released.
Battlepasses appeal to players who are motivated by story and Cosmetics, rather than by combat and BiS gear. The masses of MMORPG players who typically stop playing after they hit Max Level and are waiting for new content to drop before they play again.
They cannot commit because MMORPGs run out of new content in 3 months and then players have to wait 9-15 months or more for the next expansion. If new content arrives every 3 months, you can expect fans of that game to return to play whenever the new content drops.
Let's just say "DLCs appeal to players who are motivated by story" without the "and Cosmetics" part.
GW2 has a "pay to play" and sells the DLC and indeed has versions which cost more and the more expensive ones have additional cosmetics, gems, max level boosts...
But the story is the common part which has to be payed because they don't have a subscription model.
In AoC, we have monthly subscription which should cover all the new added story, quests, areas... without additional costs.
Therefore players who pay monthly (or a bigger amount an year in advance) should get the story for free and be able to buy cosmetics from the store with embers:
Embers is a virtual currency that can be used to purchase cosmetic items within Ashes of Creation.[9]
If they want, they can synchronize and present new cool skins, costumes, dyes etc with bigger updates and bundle them together as special offers in the store. If you buy all new cosmetics instead of each separately you might end up cheaper. But those packages should not be called DLCs or "Battle passes". Those are just store content.
If DLCs bring new cosmetics as part of completing story, those should be available for free for all, as they pay monthly subscription.
Example 1: if a DLC will add a new jumping puzzle which sometime has new random skins from a pool of skins, that pool should be same for everyone.
There should be no pool of 12 skins because you purchased 2 of them in the store and others to have just a pool of 10 skins.
Example 2: if a DLC unlocks through the additional story a new mount, then of course we have to complete the story and unlock the mount with the default in-game skin to have the thing onto which you apply the cosmetic. Or buy the mount from somebody who completed the story.
Example 3: Same as 2 but skin reward instead.
if a DLC unlocks through the additional story a new skin, then purchasing the same skin in the store (if available) should grant you the skin immediately and not force you to go and do quests or complete a story.
Cosmetics should be visible in your inventory as soon as you own them.
Certain mount types might be limited in time and purchase-able later from whoever wants to part with them. They do not die permanently (unlike ships in Eve).
Nodes will change too. Story evolves.
People will miss out the content which changes constantly as part of a living world concept.
That's fine for me. If they can make some story stay in-game as part of instanced content, that's ok.
The open world should change.
In a fashion war, one could say that buying the cosmetics from the store is pay to win.
And I want to be able to skip quests rather than being forced to do activities I do not want, just to get the cosmetics I purchased.
Imagine Steven forcing you to go into the deep ocean to get something you payed for.
So be careful what words you use for what kind of content and how the game will change if you ask for something.
while Battlepasses drop new content every 3 months
You keep saying this, but what do you mean by it? Are you talking about the cosmetic rewards? And if not, then how exactly is a UI menu bringing that other content? Or are you saying that the BP pays for the new content, which is why they're always linked?
If a company can release new content every 3 months - they can just release it every 3 months. BP has nothing to do with that and has no relation to said content.
And if you do mean "cosmetic rewards" - as Mag keeps saying, that's not content for the absolute majority of players. Yes, you can RP in it or show off your grind/money to others, but the amount of people who'd call that content (or let alone "enough content to keep playing the game) is miniscule.
If a company can release new content every 3 months - they can just release it every 3 months. BP has nothing to do with that and has no relation to said content.
This is something like what I was imagining for Ashes of Creation. New content being released in the form of story arcs/side quests/commissions triggered by the AoC algorithm. Especially as the player base on a server starts getting to max level. I imagined our "Dailies" to be more about gathering/processing/crafting and preparing for node seiges, which are the renewing end game loop for the server.
You don't need a battlepass to tell you to "kill 10 boars", when your node needs 1000 boar hides per day in upkeep and another 500 to prepare for sieges. Here, "new content" could be things that happen while going to grind spots. I don't see how there is any value to make an additional paid option for more things to do and stuff to unlock, when that should be available to all players for the sub anyways and distracts from the main game.
What next, a BattlePass for an exclusive instanced arena for pvpers? Distancing the player base even more from the actual game?
while Battlepasses drop new content every 3 months
You keep saying this, but what do you mean by it? Are you talking about the cosmetic rewards? And if not, then how exactly is a UI menu bringing that other content? Or are you saying that the BP pays for the new content, which is why they're always linked?
If a company can release new content every 3 months - they can just release it every 3 months. BP has nothing to do with that and has no relation to said content.
And if you do mean "cosmetic rewards" - as Mag keeps saying, that's not content for the absolute majority of players. Yes, you can RP in it or show off your grind/money to others, but the amount of people who'd call that content (or let alone "enough content to keep playing the game) is miniscule.
Something you may have noticed - I definately have - with the two people wanting a battlepass; they really aren't even attempting to describe how it would look in Ashes at all.
I can only assume this is because they know how easily that would make it to just rip to pieces.
Something you may have noticed - I definately have - with the two people wanting a battlepass; they really aren't even attempting to describe how it would look in Ashes at all.
I can only assume this is because they know how easily that would make it to just rip to pieces.
Well they're supporting it for different reasons. Dygz simply prefers the rewards, which also make him play the game more (and in ways he usually doesn't play), while Mag is just afraid that the game will be so damn shit that only the BP scamming can save Intrepid from utter collapse (I'm wildly overexaggerating here, but that's the core point of his arguments so far).
Dygz has provided several examples of BPs and just believes that Intrepid will amalgamate all of their best qualities into their own version of the BP. Mag simply keeps saying "money good. need money", so his side of the discussion doesn't even need to provide an example of how things should work.
And considering that Mag doesn't seem to care about cosmetics - I'm sure he'd be fine if the BP was the scammiest thing ever, as long as it only rewards cosmetics.
So yes, so far I've had to do my own research on all of this stuff, just to properly understand what both of them mean (cause my main source of BP knowledge is Mihoyo's games). In the process, I've learned about DRG's BP design, which seems like the best one in the industry, BUT ALSO COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF HAVING A BP
Everyone wants that. Typically, 75% of the player population stops playing once they hit Max Level.
This is blatantly untrue.
95%+ of all in game character time in WoW is on max level characters.
This figure is 90%+ in ESO, EQ, EQ2, GW2 and a number of other games.
It is 99.5%+ in Archeage.
I do not have figures for either Final Fantasy game, though would expect it to be around 90%.
Just here to pipe up that per my own experience this is true for FFXI.
Anyway, please don't add a battle pass. You're not a Korean MMO, you don't have to. Reading through this thread, it seems like battle passes have poisoned the well enough that they have caused a fundamental shift in the motivation people have for playing a game, and it makes me sad for the state of gaming today.
I think that if you are playing a game for extrinsic motivation, i.e. something that is not the raw mechanics or social dynamics of the game itself, but something layered on top, you're most likely being preyed on and should stop. If you add a battle pass, whether it causes FOMO/money loss or not, you are somewhat admitting your game isn't engaging enough by itself and needs an extrinsic motivation booster. That seems like bad design, and something that would leave a blemish on Intrepid's record.
Grilled cheese always tastes better when you eat it together!
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You keep saying this, but what do you mean by it? Are you talking about the cosmetic rewards? And if not, then how exactly is a UI menu bringing that other content? Or are you saying that the BP pays for the new content, which is why they're always linked?
If a company can release new content every 3 months - they can just release it every 3 months. BP has nothing to do with that and has no relation to said content.
And if you do mean "cosmetic rewards" - as Mag keeps saying, that's not content for the absolute majority of players. Yes, you can RP in it or show off your grind/money to others, but the amount of people who'd call that content (or let alone "enough content to keep playing the game) is miniscule.
Battlepasses typically include a bit of new story, some new quests and thematically related mobs and NPCs in the world. For NW and Fortnite, there is a Battlepass page you get get to from the Menu where you can track your rogress on the free path and the paid path which will show you the Cosmetics rewards and will also list the long list of Tasks. Most of the rewards there will be related to the theme Season/Chapter story.
For instance, on May 3rd, LEGO Fortnite dropped a Star Wars Battlepass.
The Shop also dropped in some STar Wars characters for sale.
I bought Lando for around 2K vbucks.
For 18K vbucks, I bought the LEGO Star Wars Bundle which included a Rebel Building, an Imperial Building, and the premium Star Wars path. Primarily because the premium path had 7 STar Wars buildings and I had been wishing there were some Sci-Fi buildings for 6 months.
The premium Star Wars path also instantly gave me Chewbaca for "free".
I dropped into the game as Lando.
I took a minute to check on the farm I had been building.
All of a sudden I heard loud crack from the sky. I looked up and over. Sure enough, the sky was fucking fracturing!!
As I watched the fracture grow larger, the front of an Imperial Star Destroyer peeked through and I began to hear X-Wings and Tie Fighters battling each other as they flew through the fissure.
The Star Destroyer pushed through the crack, sped across the sky and... I heard it crash somewhere far in the distance.
Dazed and confused, I basically just turned in circles looking around the area, thinking, "WTF just HAPPENED??!!?!!"
WHile I was trying get my bearings and figure out what I should do next. a Rebel Officer ran up to me and said that her Squad landed nearby and needed some help establishing a base. She handed me some Macrobinoculars which allowed me to view where on the map Rebel and Imperial Bases are located.
Using the Macrobinoculars I found a Cave that had Rebel Soldiers standing in front of it.
They had placed a small camp and some equipment around the Cave and were guarding the entrance.
(They will shoot any mobs that come near the entrance.)
I walked into the Cave to see Rebel NPCs wandering around the Camp inside. Shortly after I walked out of the other end of the Cave, the Rebel Officer found me and told me I should go find the area where they were establishing a Village.
And that started me on a bunch of Bulletin Board Tasks related to upgrading the Rebel Village.
That Cave had led me to Star Wars Island - where most of the Caves are occupied by Rebel Bases or Imperial Bases. You can destroy them to collect building pieces if you wish. Eliminating Star Wars NPCs will also cause Star Wars building pieces to drop.
All of the above occurred before I ever looked at the Battlepass Tasks.
Of course, just playing through the game was already moving me along both tracks of the Star Wars Battlepass and the Main Battlepass.
After I moved the Rebel Village from Stage 1 to Stage 2, I took a look at the Star Wars Battlepass Tasks.
One great thing for me with LEGO Fortnite is that I can do PvE Tasks there and still complete the Main Battlepass without ever entering the Battle Royale mode. Each game mode will have its own list of Milestones, Dailies and Weeklies, but the Main Pass doesn't really care which Game Mode you're playing.
LEGO Fortnite is split between Survival Worlds and Sandbox/Creative Worlds.
Milestone Tasks move from Stage 1 to 20. The one I have not yet completed is:
Survival Milestone: Farm anything from a Garden Plot. 8 plants will take you to the next Stage.
I'm currently at 15/20 Stage and 110/120. I need to pick 2 more things to get to Stage 16, but I've already finished the Battlepass and doing other stuff instead of thinking about that one.
I completed all the other Milestone Tasks for Survival and Sandbox.
My Sandbox Dailies right now are:
Complete a Starter Shack 0/1
Build or Destroy Pieces in a Grasslands 0/50
Place Thrusters 0/12
If I build and destroy 3 Starter Shacks in a Grasslands Biome that will take me about 7 minutes.
My Survival Dailies are:
Eliminate 3 Wolves 0/3
Catch Fish 0/3
Craft E-11 Blaster Rifle 0/1
The first two will take me about 4 minutes total. I will probably ignore the Crafting one because it might take me more time than I want to spend acquiring the Resources. I'll have to check my Chests.
My current Sandbox Weekly is:
Week 4 - Defeat Frost Brute with a DL-44 Blaster Pistol, a E-11 Blaster Rifle or a Bow Caster 0/2
I'll probably ignore that one because it's more time than I want to spend on a BP Task.
I finshed all the other ones already.
My current Survival Weeklies are:
Week 3 - Craft a Glider 0/1
Week 4 - Defeat AWR Troopers 0/3
I think I don't have the Crafting Station I need to build the Glider - and I'm not interested enough to build one, so I'll probably continue to ignore that one.
The AWR Troopers are kinda rare - and I don't want to spend time hunting where they might be, so... I'm not actively pursuing that one.
I completed all the other ones. But, as you can see. I can still complete the Week 3 Task(s) even after Week 3 has passed... so, there's no fomo for the Weeklies (and it's the Weeklies that really bump you to the end of the Star Wars Battlepass).
I completed the Star Wars Battlepass a week ago, but these will also move me along the Main Battlepass path without me needing to gain BP XP from a different Game Mode.
At the start of the week, I will take maybe 40 minutes to knock out all the Dailies and Weeklies I'm interested in. Then each day, if I log in, I'll take 10-15 minutes to knock out the Dailies I'm interested in.
And usually play 4-6 hours any day that I play, so 15 minutes does not feel like a chore.
Especially when some of the Tasks can be "Eat 3 Food".
I do the stuff I like to do. Ignore the stuff that might feel tedious or like a chore.
The Battlepass can give me some Tasks to do or focus on for a bit.
The Battlepass also adds some story and some new content in the game - just not as much as a full-blown Expansion.
And... I also get a bunch of Cosmetics I like at a Discounted price. Cosmetics related to the theme of the new story content.
All of that being said...
During the 6 weeks that I was playing Nightingale, I completely ignored the Fortnite Battlepass.
Around the time I finished the available content in Nightingale with two characters, the Star Wars Update dropped in LEGO Fortnite.
I finished the LEGO Battlepass in 2 weeks and that also gave me enough XP on the Main Battelpass that I was able to complete the Main Battlepass three days later.
Happy to complete the Main Battlepass because that gives me 8 Greek Gods that I can use in LEGO Fortnite to create stories (even though the dev-curated story for the Greek Gods is in the Battle Royale and not in LEGO Fortnite).
It's all win/win.
(And, yes, while it might take 2 or 3 years to see them again, I expect that the Greek Gods will inidividually rotate into the Cash Shop for direct purchase eventually. Rather than literally being unavailable forever.)
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
while Battlepasses drop new content every 3 months
You keep saying this, but what do you mean by it? Are you talking about the cosmetic rewards? And if not, then how exactly is a UI menu bringing that other content? Or are you saying that the BP pays for the new content, which is why they're always linked?
If a company can release new content every 3 months - they can just release it every 3 months. BP has nothing to do with that and has no relation to said content.
And if you do mean "cosmetic rewards" - as Mag keeps saying, that's not content for the absolute majority of players. Yes, you can RP in it or show off your grind/money to others, but the amount of people who'd call that content (or let alone "enough content to keep playing the game) is miniscule.
Because even with a full Expansion, gamers will race through that content in about 60-100 hours.
The amount of story related content with a Battlepass is probably closer to 20-30 hours.
For the players who are not interested in the Endgame BiS gear loop - the Battlepass can retain interest for 100 hours by offering Cosmetic rewards related to the story and theme of the Season.
Sure. They could just offer those same Cosmetics for direct purchase without a BP.
But, I would play 3x-4x as long with a BP than I would without a BP.
Because without the BP, I would play for 40-60 hours. Maybe buy one or two Cosmetics. And then I'd be done.
With a BP. I would play for 100 hours. And then wait a month or two for the next Season.
Rather than waiting 12-18 months for an Expansion.
That's the general answer.
Obviously, players who want to use Cosmetics to help with RP is not going to be a miniscule population in an (MMO)RPG.
For Ashes, specifically...
Nodes should help retain players - because the world is dynamic.
But, Steven also hopes to drop Seasonal DLCs and they have already had success with the APOC BP.
And because BPs are currently a very popular feature for MMOs
I expect Seasonal BPs will be the way Intrepid releases their Seasonal DLCs
Either your wording comes off as it, or you yourself are confusing the egg with the chicken. The BP doesn't "bring content" with it. It's the content that brings the BP so that they can make money off of people.
Epic could just release all the content you just described w/o the BP and literally nothing would change. Well, obviously, except for them making several million less for that period of time.
You keep saying that BP drops new content when that's just not true.
To make money off of people. DRG's BP is apparently completely free AND adds all the items from the BP into the game once the BP period is done. So not only does it not make the money, but it also has no impact on players' ability to acquire the rewards from it later on.
Sure. They could just offer those same Cosmetics for direct purchase without a BP.
But, I would play 3x-4x as long with a BP than I would without a BP.
Because without the BP, I would play for 40-60 hours. Maybe buy one or two Cosmetics. And then I'd be done.
With a BP. I would play for 100 hours. And then wait a month or two for the next Season.
Rather than waiting 12-18 months for an Expansion.
That's the general answer.
I still cannot comprehend what's the difference between the game giving you the same rewards for the same actions and a BP doing the exact same thing but through a different UI.
But I guess it's as Azherae said - it's all about impetusing yourself. You don't have the impetus to play the game for a 100h w/o a thing making you play for a 100h.
And just to make completely sure for myself, if the game had the same reward structure as the Fortnite BP (i.e. play for ~100h and get cool cosmetics), but it would not be related to any BP-like UI or activity distribution - you would still not play the game for those 100h hours, correct?
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
For Ashes, specifically...
Nodes should help retain players - because the world is dynamic.
But, Steven also hopes to drop Seasonal DLCs and they have already had success with the APOC BP.
And because BPs are currently a very popular feature for MMOs
I expect Seasonal BPs will be the way Intrepid releases their Seasonal DLCs
(I'm gonna hope that also answers Otr's question)
I've read the long post which describes the LEGO Fortnite experience.
Do you expect AoC BPs to be payed content for these players which you say nodes help retain?
If yes, please describe one how you imagine it to be. I am curious what kind of rewards would it provide which people would want to purchase in addition to the monthly subscription and then play it in game. Because Steven emphasized risk vs reward but money vs reward not.
If you expect AoC BPs to be payed contend for players who do not actively play the game but only during BPs then it means BPs are not for the loyal player base but for a different target audience, which for some strange reason pays subscription too... unless they have a lifetime subscription.
(( Should IS make BPs for those who do not pay subscription and also do not actively play? It is sad when you supported them as a kickstarter and you end up not playing the game. ))
If you expect AoC BPs to be free content, then I don't need a description.
Also... you say: "they have already had success with the APOC BP"
What kind of success they had?
Rating on Steam is mostly negative. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1133430/Ashes_of_Creation_Apocalypse/
And the first review written by a kickstarter backer (Leader of men $1000 tier) says: "I am beginning to see Intrepid as a money grubbing company filled with greed."
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Either your wording comes off as it, or you yourself are confusing the egg with the chicken. The BP "doesn't bring content" with it. It's the content that brings the BP so that they can make money off of people.
Epic could just release all the content you just described w/o the BP and literally nothing would change. Well, obviously, except for them making several million less for that period of time.
You keep saying that BP drops new content when that's just not true.
That's semantics and it's not really a confusion of egg with chicke or chicken with egg.
BPs drop at the same time as a Season. And the have related content.
I think you had wording that said BPs never come with new content.
And I'm saying the BPs drop with the new Season and the new Season includes new content.
You can word that however you want.
Epic could release all the content I just described and I would probably finish the story content in about 20 hours. I would probably play with the new buildings I could afford from the shop for another 20-30 hours. And then I would be done until the next Season.
But, the Battlepass not only gives me more stuff to do in the game, it also rewards me with a bunch more stuff I want to play with which is also thematically connected to the story arc of the Season.
To make money off of people. DRG's BP is apparently completely free AND adds all the items from the BP into the game once the BP period is done. So not only does it not make the money, but it also has no impact on players' ability to acquire the rewards from it later on.
Hence "there's no purpose in it".
Which is fine, but I had never heard of DRG. How many people are playing it?
I don't think DRG adds all the items from the BP into the game once the BP period is done.
Maybe you have a better quote that supports your claim.
What I saw stated is: "Once the Performance Pass season ends, the rewards can't be obtained by playing the game anymore. But they maaaayyy in the future eventually be added to the Cash Shop. This means that the Performance Pass items maintain their rarity and uniqueness for many months - perhaps even many years - and that feels great for gamers. And, sometime down the line, you might be able to purchase them flat out for real world money if you missed out on earning them - which is great for both the gamers and the game's developers."
That's the same thing as Fortnite.
The purpose of a BP is to retain players a bit longer, after they have completed the new story and new in-game content. And the rewards for playing a bit longer are discounted Cosmetics related to the theme of the Seasonal story.
I still cannot comprehend what's the difference between the game giving you the same rewards for the same actions and a BP doing the exact same thing but through a different UI.
I think maybe you're asking if it's possible to implement the Season Pass similar to WoW?
In WoW, there is a Trader Location. You can find some NPCs nearby. https://youtu.be/W19ZHp8tZK0?si=tmGXgflJGywuvUhP
But I guess it's as Azherae said - it's all about impetusing yourself. You don't have the impetus to play the game for a 100h w/o a thing making you play for a 100h.
Well, again.... I play RPGs primarily for the interactive storytelling.
I'm probably not going to play a Sandbox game for long.
I will play completely through a Themepark or Themebox with 4 or 5 characters in order to explore the story from 4 or 5 different personality perspectives. And then I will be done until there is new dev-curated story and new content.
Once I've acquired all the Quest rewards 2 times on 4 different characters, I will be done. And wait 12-18 months for new story to drop.
I gather from what you've said - You like to explore all the game mechanics. You like to explore playing every Class and maybe every Race. Maybe explore how all the Weapons and Gear work. Maybe you want to explore all the Artisan Professions.
But, I'm playing primarily to RP through the story with 4-5 characters and experience how the story might be different for each of those personalities. And then - I'm going to wait for more dev curated story and new Quest rewards.
Because I want to ever quest - but I'm really only going to complete each quest about 4 or 5 times.
And just to make completely sure for myself, if the game had the same reward structure as the Fortnite BP (i.e. play for ~100h and get cool cosmetics), but it would not be related to any BP-like UI or activity distribution - you would still not play the game for those 100h hours, correct?
I don't know what you're trying to ask.
I don't understand how it's possible to have the same reward structure but not be related to any BP-like UI.
If it's not related to activity distribution - what activities would I be doing? And why would I be doing those activities?
If you're asking about something like the WoW Season Pass - I like the WoW Season Pass.
If devs could drop a full Expansion every 3 months, I would ignore BPs.
Comments
One of them needs to be true.
It is not possible for none of them to be true.
Keep in mind - Fortnite is widely derided for its monetization strategy, and has lost over half a billion dollars in law suits it has lost - and that is only the ones it has lost so far, more are in the works.
While it may be easy to say it was only aspects of monetization that are at fault, all of Fortnites monetization is a single system, designed with the deception and addiction that they are being sued with in mind.
When it comes to monetization, "but Fortnite do it" is absolutely not an argument to do something. However, "because Fortnite do it" is most definitely an argument to not do it.
"Ashes of Creation Apocalypse was free-to-play.[15][16]"
and it seems that it was designed from the beginning with Battle passes in mind:
"There will be an optional Legendary Path that players can purchase for USD $10 per 10 weeks.[79][81]"
and most likely without DLCs.
Searching further to see what happened to the game, I see that it even landed onto Steam
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1133430/Ashes_of_Creation_Apocalypse/
Or better say crash landed.
Here in this article
https://www.pcgamer.com/its-been-10-years-since-valve-invented-the-battle-pass-and-changed-gaming-forever/
pcgamer say
"
... Gun Mettle Campaign Pass in Team Fortress 2 in 2015, which did grant access to some new maps like a more traditional DLC, but also offered daily challenges that would grant cosmetics if you completed them.
...
2016 ushered in the official arrival of the battle pass
Since then it has just grown and grown, even adding brand new game modes that could have easily been sold as substantial DLC.
...
Valve has decided to stop doing them in Dota 2 entirely. "Battle Pass season has grown to be a tremendously exciting time in Dota," the statement says. "But it leaves the rest of the year feeling barren by comparison."
...
Whether you like them or loathe them, battle passes are here to stay as long as they remain so powerfully effective—or until someone invents an even better hook for keeping us logging in daily and reaching for our wallets.
"
So the Battle Pass would be a major tweak to the statement from 2018.
It makes no sense to have both DLC and Battle Pass.
For cosmetics, the Battle Pass is not necessary. GW2 has them too and they rotate them every few weeks, sometime they have discounts too and the store works fine.
For new content, DLCs were promised. That leaves Battle Passes without purpose except "for keeping us logging in daily and reaching for our wallets".
I want to login daily because the game is fun all the time not because developers make the game fun only during a Battle Pass. I don't need Battle Passes. I don't need DLCs either but if they insist to make them using the monthly subscription, so be it. I would prefer frequent granular updates instead which fit with a living world and nodes being destroyed and built again.
People who need Battle Passes are probably players who cannot commit to one game only. They play several games and switch between them, knowing they do not lose anything important while there is no battle pass.
And they cannot commit because those games are made intentionally that way, to be more interesting when a BP is released.
Usually things go on sale when it's obvious that the thing being sold has run out of its general worth, so people will only buy it at a high discount. Quite often shops will increase the cost of the thing right before the put it on sale, as well. This is not really the case with games, but the first point still stands.
Having a BP right at the game's release means that the game's worth will have been spent even before the game came out. And if the cosmetics in the BP are even relatively close in quality to the ones being sold directly - the BP sales will take away profits from those cosmetics, at a much higher dev cost (cause they'll have to develop a ton of cosmetics for the BP, as opposed to making just one).
Don't all three of those have seasonal BPs that then remove the cosmetics forever? I watched several more videos about the BPs and people have said that Fortnite doesn't sell cosmetics from the previous BPs.
DRG not only keeps them forever, but even gets them into the gameplay sources, if I understood the comments correctly.
I addressed this above. I don't want the game to come out at "a seasonal discount" on parts of its content.
I get it. It's easier to charge for a game pass once a year/quarter than it is to ask for a month-over-month subscription fee for about the same price.
For game passes that offer solely cosmetics I'm less likely to purchase. I do buy more game passes that are more content related.
p.s. I did read the og response, just chose not to respond to it.
I've seen your big post before you removed it
Maybe.
I don't pay enough attention to the Shops to know much about items going on sale in general.
Like I said, I only buy something from the NW and WoW shops about once per year - and it's not a discount that draws me in.
With Fortnite, new stuff rotates in and out of the Shop daily and we can't really be sure when it will rotate in again, so... can't really hope for or anticipate something being discounted. Best to buy it when you see it if you want it.
Although, there's way too much stuff that I want, so I do often let items slide by and hope they will return in a few weeks or months.
Not really, but... OK.
We've already seen how the Cosmetics will work with the APOC BP.
It's not a much higher dev cost. And it's not really "much higher quality"; it's just variations on a theme - AND -
The Cosmetics versions will be easily recognizable compared to similar in-game Cosmetics.
Fortnite has a disclaimer that says some items may later appear in the Item Shop.
And NW and WoW have items that can return again the following year around the same time.
I think the Marvel Comics Season rotates into Fortnite every couple of years.
The video posted states:
The Performance Pass runs for several months and during, all players are able to earn rewards along a linear track. This tends to bring back veteran players and new players into the fold on a Seasonal basis. And more players playing the game makes matchmaking feel better.
Once the Performance Pass season ends, the rewards can't be obtained by playing the game anymore. But they maaaayyy in the future eventually be added to the Cash Shop. This means that the Performance Pass items maintain their rarity and uniqueness for many months - perhaps even many years - and that feels great for gamers.
And, sometime down the line, you might be able to purchase them flat out for real world money if you missed out on earning them - which is great for both the gamers and the game's developers.
That's how modern Battlepasses work - Fortnite, NW and WoW among them.
That pretty much describes, in a nutshell, exactly what I've been telling you this entire thread.
(I'm not sure what you mean by "getting them into the gameplay sources").
You should have just gone with an argument of "I like it, even if I can't justify it".
The reasons behind a battlepass are undefensible. That is the basis of the point I (and others, I assume) are making.
If you like the end result, cool, you are allowed to like it.
What you can't do though, not when people like myself are around, is successfully defend it.
If Intrepid did this kind of BP - I'd have fewer issues with it. Though I'd still be asking why even have it, if it's completely free and then also goes into other game systems.
I don't think you directly answered this question from before.
Do you expect Ashes to not have a direct cosmetic purchase store at all?
Because if we have a direct store - you think that any cosmetic there will be priced the same way as the monthly bundle cosmetics were, right? Which means that they'll cost $5-25. And with the BP having multiple cosmetics for, presumably, $10 - this means that anyone buying a cosmetic from the direct store will be getting fucked over, cause they'll be overpaying by upwards of x20 more for one item.
And what options do you have in a BP that you should already get a reward for doing regardless of the BP. like go kill 20/20 of this mob, instead how about just go kill stuff to sell on the market for income and that's your reward?
now with that being said, you also have a lot of system that interact with each other from mobs and their drops, crafting, balancing, etc. would you rather have devs sitting down to discuss those things or a battle pass
same goes for the UI, do you want the UI team working on the actual games UI or do you want them working on some flashy battle pass UI.
even if a game has a lot of funding, you only have so much labor
APOC had a Free Path and an optional (paid) Legendary Path.
APOC planned to introduce Siege Mode and Horde Mode as DLCs, but... ended testing before they did so.
They can be a great addition - like I said.
Battlepass is a form of DLC. It's not really a major tweak. Especially not after the APOC BP in 2019.
Sure. Everyone wants that. Typically, 75% of the player population stops playing once they hit Max Level.
And return when new content drops - but typically it takes 12-18+ months for an Expansion, while Battlepasses drop new content every 3 months. And the population spikes at least 3x at the beginning of a new Season.
Steven hopes Nodes will make it so that a Battlepass isn't needed. I've said several times that I don't think a Battlepass will be needed. Hopefully, Nodes will be succussful, but...
Steven still plans to drop new content every Season - and that has most successfully been achieved with Battlepasses. I'm not aware of other MMORPGs that have managed Seasonal content drops without it being in the form of a Battlepass.
Ashes doesn't need a Battlepass.
I expect Ashes will have a Battlepass. Especially since the currently stated model is sub + Cosmetics Shop.
(And because Intrepid already had a successful BP with APOC - also while they had the Cosmetics Shop)
Battlepasses appeal to players who are motivated by story and Cosmetics, rather than by combat and BiS gear. The masses of MMORPG players who typically stop playing after they hit Max Level and are waiting for new content to drop before they play again.
They cannot commit because MMORPGs run out of new content in 3 months and then players have to wait 9-15 months or more for the next expansion. If new content arrives every 3 months, you can expect fans of that game to return to play whenever the new content drops.
This is blatantly untrue.
95%+ of all in game character time in WoW is on max level characters.
This figure is 90%+ in ESO, EQ, EQ2, GW2 and a number of other games.
It is 99.5%+ in Archeage.
I do not have figures for either Final Fantasy game, though would expect it to be around 90%.
I say for an MMORPG they are exactly the same, not just "a form".
Why use a different name for an MMORPG?
Your argument was that it was an old statement: "The vid you posted is from 2018, the first year of development."
The wiki shows that both statements were made close to each-other, the same year. For the free game which was a battle royale they used payed updates (Legendary Path)
For the subscription based game they said the updates will be free on top of the subscription.
They tried to monetize the free game and to collect even more money, with a buggy game, presenting it as an Early Access.
Just because they look the same and are made by the same people, does not mean you can expect they will use the same monetization if they said they will not.
They are DLCs and were said to be free.
It is not great to change their name and charge money.
Players were quite upset in their reviews
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1133430/Ashes_of_Creation_Apocalypse/
Let's just say "DLCs appeal to players who are motivated by story" without the "and Cosmetics" part.
GW2 has a "pay to play" and sells the DLC and indeed has versions which cost more and the more expensive ones have additional cosmetics, gems, max level boosts...
But the story is the common part which has to be payed because they don't have a subscription model.
In AoC, we have monthly subscription which should cover all the new added story, quests, areas... without additional costs.
Therefore players who pay monthly (or a bigger amount an year in advance) should get the story for free and be able to buy cosmetics from the store with embers:
Embers is a virtual currency that can be used to purchase cosmetic items within Ashes of Creation.[9]
If they want, they can synchronize and present new cool skins, costumes, dyes etc with bigger updates and bundle them together as special offers in the store. If you buy all new cosmetics instead of each separately you might end up cheaper. But those packages should not be called DLCs or "Battle passes". Those are just store content.
If DLCs bring new cosmetics as part of completing story, those should be available for free for all, as they pay monthly subscription.
Example 1: if a DLC will add a new jumping puzzle which sometime has new random skins from a pool of skins, that pool should be same for everyone.
There should be no pool of 12 skins because you purchased 2 of them in the store and others to have just a pool of 10 skins.
Example 2: if a DLC unlocks through the additional story a new mount, then of course we have to complete the story and unlock the mount with the default in-game skin to have the thing onto which you apply the cosmetic. Or buy the mount from somebody who completed the story.
Example 3: Same as 2 but skin reward instead.
if a DLC unlocks through the additional story a new skin, then purchasing the same skin in the store (if available) should grant you the skin immediately and not force you to go and do quests or complete a story.
Cosmetics should be visible in your inventory as soon as you own them.
Certain mount types might be limited in time and purchase-able later from whoever wants to part with them. They do not die permanently (unlike ships in Eve).
Nodes will change too. Story evolves.
People will miss out the content which changes constantly as part of a living world concept.
That's fine for me. If they can make some story stay in-game as part of instanced content, that's ok.
The open world should change.
In a fashion war, one could say that buying the cosmetics from the store is pay to win.
And I want to be able to skip quests rather than being forced to do activities I do not want, just to get the cosmetics I purchased.
Imagine Steven forcing you to go into the deep ocean to get something you payed for.
So be careful what words you use for what kind of content and how the game will change if you ask for something.
If a company can release new content every 3 months - they can just release it every 3 months. BP has nothing to do with that and has no relation to said content.
And if you do mean "cosmetic rewards" - as Mag keeps saying, that's not content for the absolute majority of players. Yes, you can RP in it or show off your grind/money to others, but the amount of people who'd call that content (or let alone "enough content to keep playing the game) is miniscule.
This is something like what I was imagining for Ashes of Creation. New content being released in the form of story arcs/side quests/commissions triggered by the AoC algorithm. Especially as the player base on a server starts getting to max level. I imagined our "Dailies" to be more about gathering/processing/crafting and preparing for node seiges, which are the renewing end game loop for the server.
You don't need a battlepass to tell you to "kill 10 boars", when your node needs 1000 boar hides per day in upkeep and another 500 to prepare for sieges. Here, "new content" could be things that happen while going to grind spots. I don't see how there is any value to make an additional paid option for more things to do and stuff to unlock, when that should be available to all players for the sub anyways and distracts from the main game.
What next, a BattlePass for an exclusive instanced arena for pvpers? Distancing the player base even more from the actual game?
Something you may have noticed - I definately have - with the two people wanting a battlepass; they really aren't even attempting to describe how it would look in Ashes at all.
I can only assume this is because they know how easily that would make it to just rip to pieces.
Dygz has provided several examples of BPs and just believes that Intrepid will amalgamate all of their best qualities into their own version of the BP. Mag simply keeps saying "money good. need money", so his side of the discussion doesn't even need to provide an example of how things should work.
And considering that Mag doesn't seem to care about cosmetics - I'm sure he'd be fine if the BP was the scammiest thing ever, as long as it only rewards cosmetics.
So yes, so far I've had to do my own research on all of this stuff, just to properly understand what both of them mean (cause my main source of BP knowledge is Mihoyo's games). In the process, I've learned about DRG's BP design, which seems like the best one in the industry, BUT ALSO COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF HAVING A BP
At the end of the day it's all very silly
Just here to pipe up that per my own experience this is true for FFXI.
Anyway, please don't add a battle pass. You're not a Korean MMO, you don't have to. Reading through this thread, it seems like battle passes have poisoned the well enough that they have caused a fundamental shift in the motivation people have for playing a game, and it makes me sad for the state of gaming today.
I think that if you are playing a game for extrinsic motivation, i.e. something that is not the raw mechanics or social dynamics of the game itself, but something layered on top, you're most likely being preyed on and should stop. If you add a battle pass, whether it causes FOMO/money loss or not, you are somewhat admitting your game isn't engaging enough by itself and needs an extrinsic motivation booster. That seems like bad design, and something that would leave a blemish on Intrepid's record.
For instance, on May 3rd, LEGO Fortnite dropped a Star Wars Battlepass.
The Shop also dropped in some STar Wars characters for sale.
I bought Lando for around 2K vbucks.
For 18K vbucks, I bought the LEGO Star Wars Bundle which included a Rebel Building, an Imperial Building, and the premium Star Wars path. Primarily because the premium path had 7 STar Wars buildings and I had been wishing there were some Sci-Fi buildings for 6 months.
The premium Star Wars path also instantly gave me Chewbaca for "free".
I dropped into the game as Lando.
I took a minute to check on the farm I had been building.
All of a sudden I heard loud crack from the sky. I looked up and over. Sure enough, the sky was fucking fracturing!!
As I watched the fracture grow larger, the front of an Imperial Star Destroyer peeked through and I began to hear X-Wings and Tie Fighters battling each other as they flew through the fissure.
The Star Destroyer pushed through the crack, sped across the sky and... I heard it crash somewhere far in the distance.
Dazed and confused, I basically just turned in circles looking around the area, thinking, "WTF just HAPPENED??!!?!!"
WHile I was trying get my bearings and figure out what I should do next. a Rebel Officer ran up to me and said that her Squad landed nearby and needed some help establishing a base. She handed me some Macrobinoculars which allowed me to view where on the map Rebel and Imperial Bases are located.
Using the Macrobinoculars I found a Cave that had Rebel Soldiers standing in front of it.
They had placed a small camp and some equipment around the Cave and were guarding the entrance.
(They will shoot any mobs that come near the entrance.)
I walked into the Cave to see Rebel NPCs wandering around the Camp inside. Shortly after I walked out of the other end of the Cave, the Rebel Officer found me and told me I should go find the area where they were establishing a Village.
And that started me on a bunch of Bulletin Board Tasks related to upgrading the Rebel Village.
That Cave had led me to Star Wars Island - where most of the Caves are occupied by Rebel Bases or Imperial Bases. You can destroy them to collect building pieces if you wish. Eliminating Star Wars NPCs will also cause Star Wars building pieces to drop.
All of the above occurred before I ever looked at the Battlepass Tasks.
Of course, just playing through the game was already moving me along both tracks of the Star Wars Battlepass and the Main Battlepass.
After I moved the Rebel Village from Stage 1 to Stage 2, I took a look at the Star Wars Battlepass Tasks.
One great thing for me with LEGO Fortnite is that I can do PvE Tasks there and still complete the Main Battlepass without ever entering the Battle Royale mode. Each game mode will have its own list of Milestones, Dailies and Weeklies, but the Main Pass doesn't really care which Game Mode you're playing.
LEGO Fortnite is split between Survival Worlds and Sandbox/Creative Worlds.
Milestone Tasks move from Stage 1 to 20. The one I have not yet completed is:
Survival Milestone: Farm anything from a Garden Plot. 8 plants will take you to the next Stage.
I'm currently at 15/20 Stage and 110/120. I need to pick 2 more things to get to Stage 16, but I've already finished the Battlepass and doing other stuff instead of thinking about that one.
I completed all the other Milestone Tasks for Survival and Sandbox.
My Sandbox Dailies right now are:
Complete a Starter Shack 0/1
Build or Destroy Pieces in a Grasslands 0/50
Place Thrusters 0/12
If I build and destroy 3 Starter Shacks in a Grasslands Biome that will take me about 7 minutes.
My Survival Dailies are:
Eliminate 3 Wolves 0/3
Catch Fish 0/3
Craft E-11 Blaster Rifle 0/1
The first two will take me about 4 minutes total. I will probably ignore the Crafting one because it might take me more time than I want to spend acquiring the Resources. I'll have to check my Chests.
My current Sandbox Weekly is:
Week 4 - Defeat Frost Brute with a DL-44 Blaster Pistol, a E-11 Blaster Rifle or a Bow Caster 0/2
I'll probably ignore that one because it's more time than I want to spend on a BP Task.
I finshed all the other ones already.
My current Survival Weeklies are:
Week 3 - Craft a Glider 0/1
Week 4 - Defeat AWR Troopers 0/3
I think I don't have the Crafting Station I need to build the Glider - and I'm not interested enough to build one, so I'll probably continue to ignore that one.
The AWR Troopers are kinda rare - and I don't want to spend time hunting where they might be, so... I'm not actively pursuing that one.
I completed all the other ones. But, as you can see. I can still complete the Week 3 Task(s) even after Week 3 has passed... so, there's no fomo for the Weeklies (and it's the Weeklies that really bump you to the end of the Star Wars Battlepass).
I completed the Star Wars Battlepass a week ago, but these will also move me along the Main Battlepass path without me needing to gain BP XP from a different Game Mode.
At the start of the week, I will take maybe 40 minutes to knock out all the Dailies and Weeklies I'm interested in. Then each day, if I log in, I'll take 10-15 minutes to knock out the Dailies I'm interested in.
And usually play 4-6 hours any day that I play, so 15 minutes does not feel like a chore.
Especially when some of the Tasks can be "Eat 3 Food".
I do the stuff I like to do. Ignore the stuff that might feel tedious or like a chore.
The Battlepass can give me some Tasks to do or focus on for a bit.
The Battlepass also adds some story and some new content in the game - just not as much as a full-blown Expansion.
And... I also get a bunch of Cosmetics I like at a Discounted price. Cosmetics related to the theme of the new story content.
All of that being said...
During the 6 weeks that I was playing Nightingale, I completely ignored the Fortnite Battlepass.
Around the time I finished the available content in Nightingale with two characters, the Star Wars Update dropped in LEGO Fortnite.
I finished the LEGO Battlepass in 2 weeks and that also gave me enough XP on the Main Battelpass that I was able to complete the Main Battlepass three days later.
Happy to complete the Main Battlepass because that gives me 8 Greek Gods that I can use in LEGO Fortnite to create stories (even though the dev-curated story for the Greek Gods is in the Battle Royale and not in LEGO Fortnite).
It's all win/win.
(And, yes, while it might take 2 or 3 years to see them again, I expect that the Greek Gods will inidividually rotate into the Cash Shop for direct purchase eventually. Rather than literally being unavailable forever.)
The amount of story related content with a Battlepass is probably closer to 20-30 hours.
For the players who are not interested in the Endgame BiS gear loop - the Battlepass can retain interest for 100 hours by offering Cosmetic rewards related to the story and theme of the Season.
Sure. They could just offer those same Cosmetics for direct purchase without a BP.
But, I would play 3x-4x as long with a BP than I would without a BP.
Because without the BP, I would play for 40-60 hours. Maybe buy one or two Cosmetics. And then I'd be done.
With a BP. I would play for 100 hours. And then wait a month or two for the next Season.
Rather than waiting 12-18 months for an Expansion.
That's the general answer.
Obviously, players who want to use Cosmetics to help with RP is not going to be a miniscule population in an (MMO)RPG.
For Ashes, specifically...
Nodes should help retain players - because the world is dynamic.
But, Steven also hopes to drop Seasonal DLCs and they have already had success with the APOC BP.
And because BPs are currently a very popular feature for MMOs
I expect Seasonal BPs will be the way Intrepid releases their Seasonal DLCs
(I'm gonna hope that also answers Otr's question)
Epic could just release all the content you just described w/o the BP and literally nothing would change. Well, obviously, except for them making several million less for that period of time.
You keep saying that BP drops new content when that's just not true.
To make money off of people. DRG's BP is apparently completely free AND adds all the items from the BP into the game once the BP period is done. So not only does it not make the money, but it also has no impact on players' ability to acquire the rewards from it later on.
Hence "there's no purpose in it".
I still cannot comprehend what's the difference between the game giving you the same rewards for the same actions and a BP doing the exact same thing but through a different UI.
But I guess it's as Azherae said - it's all about impetusing yourself. You don't have the impetus to play the game for a 100h w/o a thing making you play for a 100h.
And just to make completely sure for myself, if the game had the same reward structure as the Fortnite BP (i.e. play for ~100h and get cool cosmetics), but it would not be related to any BP-like UI or activity distribution - you would still not play the game for those 100h hours, correct?
Treating the players as loot pinatas.
Why should quests and story be tied to a paid system outside of the main game?
I've read the long post which describes the LEGO Fortnite experience.
Do you expect AoC BPs to be payed content for these players which you say nodes help retain?
If yes, please describe one how you imagine it to be. I am curious what kind of rewards would it provide which people would want to purchase in addition to the monthly subscription and then play it in game. Because Steven emphasized risk vs reward but money vs reward not.
If you expect AoC BPs to be payed contend for players who do not actively play the game but only during BPs then it means BPs are not for the loyal player base but for a different target audience, which for some strange reason pays subscription too... unless they have a lifetime subscription.
(( Should IS make BPs for those who do not pay subscription and also do not actively play? It is sad when you supported them as a kickstarter and you end up not playing the game. ))
If you expect AoC BPs to be free content, then I don't need a description.
Also... you say: "they have already had success with the APOC BP"
What kind of success they had?
Rating on Steam is mostly negative.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1133430/Ashes_of_Creation_Apocalypse/
And the first review written by a kickstarter backer (Leader of men $1000 tier) says:
"I am beginning to see Intrepid as a money grubbing company filled with greed."
BPs drop at the same time as a Season. And the have related content.
I think you had wording that said BPs never come with new content.
And I'm saying the BPs drop with the new Season and the new Season includes new content.
You can word that however you want.
Epic could release all the content I just described and I would probably finish the story content in about 20 hours. I would probably play with the new buildings I could afford from the shop for another 20-30 hours. And then I would be done until the next Season.
But, the Battlepass not only gives me more stuff to do in the game, it also rewards me with a bunch more stuff I want to play with which is also thematically connected to the story arc of the Season.
Which is fine, but I had never heard of DRG. How many people are playing it?
I don't think DRG adds all the items from the BP into the game once the BP period is done.
Maybe you have a better quote that supports your claim.
What I saw stated is:
"Once the Performance Pass season ends, the rewards can't be obtained by playing the game anymore. But they maaaayyy in the future eventually be added to the Cash Shop. This means that the Performance Pass items maintain their rarity and uniqueness for many months - perhaps even many years - and that feels great for gamers.
And, sometime down the line, you might be able to purchase them flat out for real world money if you missed out on earning them - which is great for both the gamers and the game's developers."
That's the same thing as Fortnite.
The purpose of a BP is to retain players a bit longer, after they have completed the new story and new in-game content. And the rewards for playing a bit longer are discounted Cosmetics related to the theme of the Seasonal story.
I think maybe you're asking if it's possible to implement the Season Pass similar to WoW?
In WoW, there is a Trader Location. You can find some NPCs nearby.
Well, again.... I play RPGs primarily for the interactive storytelling.
I'm probably not going to play a Sandbox game for long.
I will play completely through a Themepark or Themebox with 4 or 5 characters in order to explore the story from 4 or 5 different personality perspectives. And then I will be done until there is new dev-curated story and new content.
Once I've acquired all the Quest rewards 2 times on 4 different characters, I will be done. And wait 12-18 months for new story to drop.
I gather from what you've said - You like to explore all the game mechanics. You like to explore playing every Class and maybe every Race. Maybe explore how all the Weapons and Gear work. Maybe you want to explore all the Artisan Professions.
But, I'm playing primarily to RP through the story with 4-5 characters and experience how the story might be different for each of those personalities. And then - I'm going to wait for more dev curated story and new Quest rewards.
Because I want to ever quest - but I'm really only going to complete each quest about 4 or 5 times.
I don't know what you're trying to ask.
I don't understand how it's possible to have the same reward structure but not be related to any BP-like UI.
If it's not related to activity distribution - what activities would I be doing? And why would I be doing those activities?
If you're asking about something like the WoW Season Pass - I like the WoW Season Pass.
If devs could drop a full Expansion every 3 months, I would ignore BPs.