And Dygz himself confirms that completing a BP requires ~100h. Except, unless I'm mistaken he was talking about BP lvl100. While paid BP has even more rewards after lvl100, so anyone who decides to purchase a BP is required to play even more.
Jesus
No.
Sure. It takes about 100 hours to reach BP Level 100.
As I said, I hit BP Level 5 in 45 minutes. So there is not a 1-1 correlation as if it's always 1 Level per 1 hour.
You travel down the paid BP at the same time you travel down the free one.
If I had paid for the APOC Legendary Path, I would get a paid reward at every Stage and a free reward every even-numbered Stage. When I hit Stage 4, I would get both the free and paid rewards.
For the LEGO Fortnite Rebel Pass:
It takes 11K Studs to complete the BP.
At 2K Studs, I would have unlocked 2 items on the free path and 2 items on the paid path.
Notice that this BP began May 3. I completed it in 14 days. There are still 56 days left.
On the previous Main BP....
I reached Level 100, but I only claimed 94/100 Items on the BP.
Because I did not have to claim every single reward to get the final one - Zeus.
In order to unlock the 2 Pages of Bonus Rewards (total of 10 rewards), you have to first claim all 100/100 Items on the Main BP.
(I'm currently Level 16, but I've claimed 19 Items)
I'm all for better pointers to content. I'd just prefer if they were more organic, on top of paid cosmetics not being gated behind dozens of hours of gameplay, even though I've already paid for them.
I mean...well, the "price" of getting those items dirt cheap, at a massive discount (or for FREE if it's the free path), is doing stuff in the game that you mostly already like to do - for 100 hours.
With a BP, you get at least 5x the value of one purchase from the Cosmetics Shop.
I mean...well, the "price" of getting those items dirt cheap, at a massive discount (or for FREE if it's the free path), is doing stuff in the game that you mostly already like to do - for 100 hours.
With a BP, you get at least 5x the value of one purchase from the Cosmetics Shop.
I'll be playing the game for 100h either way. But if I'm paying for something, I want it now, unless it's a preorder. Do you consider BP to be a "preorder" of cosmetics?
And I also don't care about other costs of things, because they are all made up. I care about how the company values their devtime. If the paid BP's cosmetics are of the same quality as the directly sold ones - the company is literally lying to our faces and robbing anyone who buys the cosmetics directly, because the value of devtime on any given cosmetic is equal to however much a cosmetic is worth when you divide the cost of the BP by the amount of cosmetics in it.
If there's 10 cosmetics in the paid BP and the BP costs $10, that means that the company values their dev time of making one cosmetic at $1. So any other cosmetic of similar quality should also cost one dollar. Anything else is a scam.
Any free cosmetic is included in the sub cost of the game, just as other in-game rewards are, and I fully expect their quality to be less than that of the paid ones (even if Steven claims that they won't be).
It's obvious that you're fine with paying way more for something that costs way less, but I am personally not.
I've checked several sources and they all say that you get more stuff if you get to lvl200, if you have a paid BP. Is that no longer true?
I did originally think I remebered the cap was 200. But that did not seem to be the case for the BP that ended a week ago. Might be that it jumps to 200 once you get 100/100 Items on the Main Path and Unlock the Bonus Path.
But the Bonus Rewards do not unlock just for reaching Level 100. I'll triple check that for you once I unlock the Bonus Rewards on the current BP.
I just didn't want any of the Bonus Rewards so...
I'll be playing the game for 100h either way. But if I'm paying for something, I want it now, unless it's a preorder. Do you consider BP to be a "preorder" of cosmetics?
I don't understand what you mean. That's like saying if you're paying a subscription, you should get all of the BiS Gear and other rewards in the game without doing any Quests or Dungeons or Raids.
I don't consider BP to be a "preorder".
I consider BP Tasks to be mini-quests.
And I also don't care about other costs of things, because they are all made up. I care about how the company values their devtime. If the paid BP's cosmetics are of the same quality as the directly sold ones - the company is literally lying to our faces and robbing anyone who buys the cosmetics directly, because the value of devtime on any given cosmetic is equal to however much a cosmetic is worth when you divide the cost of the BP by the amount of cosmetics in it.
Clearly you do care about the cost of things since you are complaining about the cost of things.
I kinda already think most of the Items in the Intrepid Store are too expensive without a BP - so if I can get a bunch at a discount with a BP, I will run the BP instead of paying for stuff in the Store.
Which is exactly what I do with NW and WoW.
If there's 10 cosmetics in the paid BP and the BP costs $10, that means that the company values their dev time of making one cosmetic at $1. So any other cosmetic of similar quality should also cost one dollar. Anything else is a scam.
Without a BP, the cheapest Item in the Store is going to be $5. Most are going to be $10+.
Mounts cost $20. For WoW and for the Ashes Shop. I'm probably not going to buy more Mounts for that price.
But, if I can pay 2 Mounts for playing the free track of a BP - in addition to a bunch of other rewards, I will play the free path of the BP.
And if I can pay $10 to also get 4 Mounts plus 1 Flying Mount Skin on the paid path, I will happily pay $10 to get 7 Mounts plus a bunch of other rewards for half the price of 1 Mount in the Shop.
No one is going to force you to go for the discounted items if you don't want to.
Any free cosmetic is included in the sub cost of the game, just as other in-game rewards are, and I fully expect their quality to be less than that of the paid ones (even if Steven claims that they won't be).
It's obvious that you're fine with paying way more for something that costs way less, but I am personally not.
I mean... yes... there's not going to be free cosmetics without a BP.
If there is BP with a free path then the Cosmetics on that path would be discounted to free during the time they are available on the BP. And they will be included with the price of the subscription.
I'm fine with taking advantage of discounts for stuff I'd like to purchase.
I would say that the free Skins will be less ornate and less flashy the the paid Skins.
Whether an individual considers less ornate and less flashy to be lower quality when it comes to Ashes items is going to be subjective.
If I recall correctly, there were several sets of gear on the free path that I prefered over the Legendary Path gear.
I don't understand what you mean. That's like saying if you're paying a subscription, you should get all of the BiS Gear and other rewards in the game without doing any Quests or Dungeons or Raids.
I don't consider BP to be a "preorder".
I consider BP Tasks to be mini-quests.
Subscription buys you access to the game. So when the game is out, I'd expect to get that access as soon as I pay for it, rather than waiting for a hundred hours before getting it.
Paying for a BP doesn't give you access to the thing you paid for, because it requires you to spend time earning what you paid for. I personally dislike that in a sub-based game, because I already paid for my gameplay, so why should I be required to pay more just to play more.
Equitable cosmetics, both from a quantity and quality standpoint, are achievable through in-game means.[5][6] Cosmetics achievable in-game will be on-par, and in the case of legendary skins, even more elaborate than shop items.[7][8][2]
There will be legendary cosmetics that are only achievable in-game that will never be offered in the cosmetic shop.[7][8][2]
Or did you mean "everyone will pay for the sub, so nothing is free"?
And I also don't care about other costs of things, because they are all made up. I care about how the company values their devtime. If the paid BP's cosmetics are of the same quality as the directly sold ones - the company is literally lying to our faces and robbing anyone who buys the cosmetics directly, because the value of devtime on any given cosmetic is equal to however much a cosmetic is worth when you divide the cost of the BP by the amount of cosmetics in it.
Clearly you do care about the cost of things since you are complaining about the cost of things.
I kinda already think most of the Items in the Intrepid Store are too expensive without a BP - so if I can get a bunch at a discount with a BP, I will run the BP instead of paying for stuff in the Store.
Which is exactly what I do with NW and WoW.
You cannot say BPs are good because they are cheaper than the same things they put up to sell at a higher price without BP.
This strategy exists for real products too not only virtual items.
That is called price anchoring or decoy pricing.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Subscription buys you access to the game. So when the game is out, I'd expect to get that access as soon as I pay for it, rather than waiting for a hundred hours before getting it.
You don't get access to gear and quest rewards as soon as you pay for the sub.
You still have to play for hundreds of hours to get all of the rewards that drop in the game - or even that you Craft in the game.
Paying for a BP doesn't give you access to the thing you paid for, because it requires you to spend time earning what you paid for. I personally dislike that in a sub-based game, because I already paid for my gameplay, so why should I be required to pay more just to play more.
It gives the same access that Quests and Dungeons and Raids give.
We'll just know at the beginning of each Season what all the available items on the BP will be without having to look at a wiki or YouTube vid.
Or did you mean "everyone will pay for the sub, so nothing is free"?
I think, based on that quote, that "achieveable in the game" does not mean that you can just grab those Cosmetics any time you wish just because you paid the sub.
Without a BP, you may never know which paramaters need to be unlocked before the Cosmetics you want appear somewhere on the server.
And on some servers, the Cosmetics you want might never become available. Technically they will be achievable, but the parameters for them to appear would never be met on that server.
Otherwise, there is no purpose for the Cosmetics Shop.
The Cosmetics Shop makes it quick and easy for people to obtain the specific items they want - when those items rotate into the Shop.
But they are going to be on par with the prices in the original Ashes Shop and the WoW Shop and the NW Shop.
It's going to be fairly expensive. Like ~$20 for a Mount and $25 for a Freehold Skin.
I don't know what makes you think that a free BP path cannot be the same thing as Cosmetics "achievable in the game".
And I don't know why you would think that free Cosmetics "achievable in the game" would mean immediately available just for paying the sub - rather than "you have to do a bunch of stuff in the game to achieve the Cosmetics".
Battlepass lets you very clearly see which Cosmetics you might want during a Season - rather than hoping that a Tulnar Scientific Metro finally is finally established and lasts long enough to unlock the Services and Artisan Buildings needed for the "achievable in-game" Cosmetics to appear somewhere.
A couple handfuls of free Cosmetics on a free BP path, where you clearly know what you will get for doing a bunch of different stuff in the game, is better than playing the same number of hours and never knowing if the Cosmetics you want will appear on the server any time soon.
And, if they have a paid BP path with a couple handfuls of heavily discounted Cosmetics in-between the free Cosmetics and the Legendary Cosmetics...
That is also win/win.
You will still have to do 100 hours worth of gameplay to get those "achieveable in-game" Cosmetics.
Just like you have to do with gear.
You seem to be thinking that wiki quote stated that you pay for the sub, log in and then immediately walk over to an NPC and grab 5 handfuls of free Cosmetics just because you paid a sub.
It's definitely not going to work like that.
Or did you mean "everyone will pay for the sub, so nothing is free"?
I think achieveable in the game does not mean that you can just grab them any time you wish.
Without a BP, you may never know which paramaters need to be unlocked before they become appear somewhere on the server.
And on some servers, the Cosmetics you want might never become available. Technically they will be achievable, but the parameters for them to appear would never be met on that server.
Otherwise, there is no purpose for the Cosmetics Shop.
The Cosmetics Shop makes it easy for people to buy what they want - when those items rotate into the Shop.
But they are going to be on par with the prices in the original Ashes Shop and the WoW Shop and the NW Shop.
I don't know what makes you think that a free BP path is not the same thing as Cosmetics "achievable in the game".
And I don't know why you would think that free Cosmetics "achievable in the game" would mean immediately available just for paying the sub - rather than "you have to do a bunch of stuff in the game to achieve the Cosmetics".
Battlepass lets you very clearly see which Cosmetics you might want during a Season - rather than hoping that a Tulnar Scientific Metro finally appears and lasts long enough to unlock the Services and Artisan Buildings needed for the "achievable in-game" Cosmetics to appear somewhere.
You will still have to do 100 hours worth of gameplay to get those "achieveable in-game" Cosmetics.
Just like you have to do with gear.
You seem to be thinking that wiki quote means you pay for the sub, log in and then immediately walk over to an NPC and grab 5 handfuls of free Cosmetics just because you paid a sub.
It's definitely not going to work like that.
If a youtuber buys the BP and then makes a walk-through in the wiki how to get those cosmetics, then do you think people will still buy such in-game guides to such rewards?
Also they make the game worse for those who refuse to watch spoilers. The way you describe this is like selling spoilers.
Subscription buys you access to the game. So when the game is out, I'd expect to get that access as soon as I pay for it, rather than waiting for a hundred hours before getting it.
You don't get access to gear and quest rewards as soon as you pay for the sub.
You still have to play for hundreds of hours to get all of the rewards that drop in the game - or even that you Craft in the game.
Paying for a BP doesn't give you access to the thing you paid for, because it requires you to spend time earning what you paid for. I personally dislike that in a sub-based game, because I already paid for my gameplay, so why should I be required to pay more just to play more.
It gives me the same access that Quests and Dungeons and Raids give me.
I just know before I purchase what all the items will be without having to look at a wiki or YouTube vid.
Or did you mean "everyone will pay for the sub, so nothing is free"?
I think achieveable in the game does not mean that you can just grab them any time you wish.
Without a BP, you may never know which paramaters need to be unlocked before they become appear somewhere on the server.
And on some servers, the Cosmetics you want might never become available. Technically they will be achievable, but the parameters for them to appear would never be met on that server.
Otherwise, there is no purpose for the Cosmetics Shop.
The Cosmetics Shop makes it easy for people to buy what they want - when those items rotate into the Shop.
But they are going to be on par with the prices in the original Ashes Shop and the WoW Shop and the NW Shop.
I don't know what makes you think that a free BP path is not the same thing as Cosmetics "achievable in the game".
And I don't know why you would think that free Cosmetics "achievable in the game" would mean immediately available just for paying the sub - rather than "you have to do a bunch of stuff in the game to achieve the Cosmetics".
Battlepass lets you very clearly see which Cosmetics you might want during a Season - rather than hoping that a Tulnar Scientific Metro finally appears and lasts long enough to unlock the Services and Artisan Buildings needed for the "achievable in-game" Cosmetics to appear somewhere.
You will still have to do 100 hours worth of gameplay to get those "achieveable in-game" Cosmetics.
Just like you have to do with gear.
You seem to be thinking that wiki quote means you pay for the sub, log in and then immediately walk over to an NPC and grab 5 handfuls of free Cosmetics just because you paid a sub.
It's definitely not going to work like that.
Even if you buy cosmetics in the game like a mount or a freehold, you still you need get it in game to apply the skin. To add even more onto that point.
Subscription buys you access to the game. So when the game is out, I'd expect to get that access as soon as I pay for it, rather than waiting for a hundred hours before getting it.
You don't get access to gear and quest rewards as soon as you pay for the sub.
You still have to play for hundreds of hours to get all of the rewards that drop in the game - or even that you Craft in the game.
Paying for a BP doesn't give you access to the thing you paid for, because it requires you to spend time earning what you paid for. I personally dislike that in a sub-based game, because I already paid for my gameplay, so why should I be required to pay more just to play more.
It gives me the same access that Quests and Dungeons and Raids give me.
I just know before I purchase what all the items will be without having to look at a wiki or YouTube vid.
Or did you mean "everyone will pay for the sub, so nothing is free"?
I think achieveable in the game does not mean that you can just grab them any time you wish.
Without a BP, you may never know which paramaters need to be unlocked before they become appear somewhere on the server.
And on some servers, the Cosmetics you want might never become available. Technically they will be achievable, but the parameters for them to appear would never be met on that server.
Otherwise, there is no purpose for the Cosmetics Shop.
The Cosmetics Shop makes it easy for people to buy what they want - when those items rotate into the Shop.
But they are going to be on par with the prices in the original Ashes Shop and the WoW Shop and the NW Shop.
I don't know what makes you think that a free BP path is not the same thing as Cosmetics "achievable in the game".
And I don't know why you would think that free Cosmetics "achievable in the game" would mean immediately available just for paying the sub - rather than "you have to do a bunch of stuff in the game to achieve the Cosmetics".
Battlepass lets you very clearly see which Cosmetics you might want during a Season - rather than hoping that a Tulnar Scientific Metro finally appears and lasts long enough to unlock the Services and Artisan Buildings needed for the "achievable in-game" Cosmetics to appear somewhere.
You will still have to do 100 hours worth of gameplay to get those "achieveable in-game" Cosmetics.
Just like you have to do with gear.
You seem to be thinking that wiki quote means you pay for the sub, log in and then immediately walk over to an NPC and grab 5 handfuls of free Cosmetics just because you paid a sub.
It's definitely not going to work like that.
Even if you buy cosmetics in the game like a mount or a freehold, you still you need get it in game to apply the skin. To add even more onto that point.
To add more to the confusion not point.
I gave 3 examples before. If we pay for skins, those should be available immediately.
So the Battle Pass would be a major tweak to the statement from 2018.
It makes no sense to have both DLC and Battle Pass.
For cosmetics, the Battle Pass is not necessary. GW2 has them too and they rotate them every few weeks, sometime they have discounts too and the store works fine.
For new content, DLCs were promised. That leaves Battle Passes without purpose except "for keeping us logging in daily and reaching for our wallets".
Battlepass is a form of DLC. It's not really a major tweak. Especially not after the APOC BP in 2019.
Ok so let's use the word DLC then.
I say for an MMORPG they are exactly the same, not just "a form".
Why use a different name for an MMORPG?
Wiki states that "Ashes of Creation Apocalypse was free-to-play.[15][16]"
and it seems that it was designed from the beginning with Battle passes in mind: "There will be an optional Legendary Path that players can purchase for USD $10 per 10 weeks.[79][81]"
and most likely without DLCs.
I mean... the wiki is great and all - but it does kinda help to have been around for the entirety of Ashes' development.
APOC had a Free Path and an optional (paid) Legendary Path.
APOC planned to introduce Siege Mode and Horde Mode as DLCs, but... ended testing before they did so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGbqQ1QpD3U
Your argument was that it was an old statement: "The vid you posted is from 2018, the first year of development."
The wiki shows that both statements were made close to each-other, the same year. For the free game which was a battle royale they used payed updates (Legendary Path)
For the subscription based game they said the updates will be free on top of the subscription.
I want to login daily because the game is fun all the time not because developers make the game fun only during a Battle Pass. I don't need Battle Passes. I don't need DLCs either but if they insist to make them using the monthly subscription, so be it. I would prefer frequent granular updates instead which fit with a living world and nodes being destroyed and built again.
Sure. Everyone wants that. Typically, 75% of the player population stops playing once they hit Max Level.
And return when new content drops - but typically it takes 12-18+ months for an Expansion, while Battlepasses drop new content every 3 months. And the population spikes at least 3x at the beginning of a new Season.
Steven hopes Nodes will make it so that a Battlepass isn't needed. I've said several times that I don't think a Battlepass will be needed. Hopefully, Nodes will be succussful, but...
Steven still plans to drop new content every Season - and that has most successfully been achieved with Battlepasses. I'm not aware of other MMORPGs that have managed Seasonal content drops without it being in the form of a Battlepass.
Ashes doesn't need a Battlepass.
I expect Ashes will have a Battlepass. Especially since the currently stated model is sub + Cosmetics Shop.
(And because Intrepid already had a successful BP with APOC - also while they had the Cosmetics Shop)
They tried to monetize the free game and to collect even more money, with a buggy game, presenting it as an Early Access.
Just because they look the same and are made by the same people, does not mean you can expect they will use the same monetization if they said they will not.
People who need Battle Passes are probably players who cannot commit to one game only. They play several games and switch between them, knowing they do not lose anything important while there is no battle pass.
And they cannot commit because those games are made intentionally that way, to be more interesting when a BP is released.
Battlepasses appeal to players who are motivated by story and Cosmetics, rather than by combat and BiS gear. The masses of MMORPG players who typically stop playing after they hit Max Level and are waiting for new content to drop before they play again.
They cannot commit because MMORPGs run out of new content in 3 months and then players have to wait 9-15 months or more for the next expansion. If new content arrives every 3 months, you can expect fans of that game to return to play whenever the new content drops.
Let's just say "DLCs appeal to players who are motivated by story" without the "and Cosmetics" part.
GW2 has a "pay to play" and sells the DLC and indeed has versions which cost more and the more expensive ones have additional cosmetics, gems, max level boosts...
But the story is the common part which has to be payed because they don't have a subscription model.
In AoC, we have monthly subscription which should cover all the new added story, quests, areas... without additional costs.
Therefore players who pay monthly (or a bigger amount an year in advance) should get the story for free and be able to buy cosmetics from the store with embers:
Embers is a virtual currency that can be used to purchase cosmetic items within Ashes of Creation.[9]
If they want, they can synchronize and present new cool skins, costumes, dyes etc with bigger updates and bundle them together as special offers in the store. If you buy all new cosmetics instead of each separately you might end up cheaper. But those packages should not be called DLCs or "Battle passes". Those are just store content.
If DLCs bring new cosmetics as part of completing story, those should be available for free for all, as they pay monthly subscription.
Example 1: if a DLC will add a new jumping puzzle which sometime has new random skins from a pool of skins, that pool should be same for everyone.
There should be no pool of 12 skins because you purchased 2 of them in the store and others to have just a pool of 10 skins.
Example 2: if a DLC unlocks through the additional story a new mount, then of course we have to complete the story and unlock the mount with the default in-game skin to have the thing onto which you apply the cosmetic. Or buy the mount from somebody who completed the story.
Example 3: Same as 2 but skin reward instead.
if a DLC unlocks through the additional story a new skin, then purchasing the same skin in the store (if available) should grant you the skin immediately and not force you to go and do quests or complete a story.
Cosmetics should be visible in your inventory as soon as you own them.
Certain mount types might be limited in time and purchase-able later from whoever wants to part with them. They do not die permanently (unlike ships in Eve).
Nodes will change too. Story evolves.
People will miss out the content which changes constantly as part of a living world concept.
That's fine for me. If they can make some story stay in-game as part of instanced content, that's ok.
The open world should change.
In a fashion war, one could say that buying the cosmetics from the store is pay to win.
And I want to be able to skip quests rather than being forced to do activities I do not want, just to get the cosmetics I purchased.
Imagine Steven forcing you to go into the deep ocean to get something you payed for.
So be careful what words you use for what kind of content and how the game will change if you ask for something.
Personally I hope this game is so successful Steven becomes a Billinoaire from it.
I don't.
The fact that billionaires exist is a flaw in our system. No one is working 100,000 times harder than most of humanity (88% of humanity is worth less than $100,000). Steven is an "ideas guy" who just happened to also be very wealthy in order to start funding this project and convince us to fund the rest of the game without getting any shares for it. Pretty good deal for him.
If he becomes a billionaire off this it is just another sign that the system is rigged to benefit those who are already on top. Lots of people have great ideas, but barely anyone has tens of millions of dollars to get their ideas off the ground.
You don't get access to gear and quest rewards as soon as you pay for the sub.
You still have to play for hundreds of hours to get all of the rewards that drop in the game - or even that you Craft in the game.
But when you pay for the game you know that its content is available to you as soon as you log in. Yes, there's a range of content requirements, but the access to the content itself is there as soon as you pay.
BP's only content is the cosmetics. But you don't get the access to them unless you spend a ton of time doing something else that you've paid even more for.
And as Mag said, even if you did get the cosmetic immediately after purchase - there's still a requirement to use it, just as there is a requirement to lvl up to enter a dungeon that's higher lvl than you.
Except in a BP you don't get that cosmetic immediately, which is my issue with the system.
We'll just know at the beginning of each Season what all the available items on the BP will be without having to look at a wiki or YouTube vid.
I've already proposed a system that lets you see all the new cosmetics, just as a BP would.
There'd still be quests that have unknown rewards, just as there will be such quest if Ashes did get a BP, so nothing changes there.
But in my proposed system you don't need to play for a hundred hours to get the one cosmetic you want. You only play for as long as that cosmetic costs in the npc store and you then just buy it.
The Cosmetics Shop makes it quick and easy for people to obtain the specific items they want - when those items rotate into the Shop.
But they are going to be on par with the prices in the original Ashes Shop and the WoW Shop and the NW Shop.
It's going to be fairly expensive. Like ~$20 for a Mount and $25 for a Freehold Skin.
But it literally doesn't have to be. That's my entire point. It's Intrepid who set the prices and they base those prices on internal devtime costs.
Obviously there will be more expensive pieces, priced at the same value as the bundle ones, but all the other cosmetics (that might've been in a BP) can simply be priced at the BP-equivalent price.
People will already be playing the game if it's good. And I already said I'm more than welcoming proper in-game pointers to content that would make people like you play the game for longer. But I simply want Intrepid not to fuck people over by saying "oooh, this little belt is ON DISCOUUUNT!!! GET YOUR DISCOUUUUNTS! ONLY NOW ONLY HERE!!!"
Set a range of prices. Set a quality (ornateness) standard for all the price ranges and simply sell them w/o rotations fuckations or anything else. And the same should apply to the free ones that get added along the way. I want new players, that come into the game 2 years after the release, to have a huge range of cosmetics to choose from when they get enough cosmetic tokens to buy one.
We will already have fomo-af cosmetics from the bundle, so why keep going with that system even after the release? Why fuck people over on purpose? And yes, telling people "just keep playing the game for 2 fucking years, cause that's when the current BP will have a rerun" is also fucking people over.
I would know, because that's the exact strategy gacha games use. It's one of the most predatory practices in the industry and you are expecting it to be the norm in Ashes. Why? Why not hope for something better than trash?
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If a youtuber buys the BP and then makes a walk-through in the wiki how to get those cosmetics, then do you think people will still buy such in-game guides to such rewards?
Also they make the game worse for those who refuse to watch spoilers. The way you describe this is like selling spoilers.
I don't know what this means.
If there is a BP, why would people need a walkthrough for how to get the Cosmetics?
I don't know what you mean by "Spoilers".
By that logic, buying items from the Cosmetics shop would be buying "Spoilers".
If there is a BP, why would people need a walkthrough for how to get the Cosmetics?
Unless the tasks are unique to each player - people will make guides on how to grind the BP in the most optimal way. There's several of them on the Fortnite's BPs out there. I watched one when trying to see weeklies/dailies.
If a youtuber buys the BP and then makes a walk-through in the wiki how to get those cosmetics, then do you think people will still buy such in-game guides to such rewards?
Also they make the game worse for those who refuse to watch spoilers. The way you describe this is like selling spoilers.
I don't know what this means.
If there is a BP, why would people need a walkthrough for how to get the Cosmetics?
I don't know what you mean by "Spoilers".
By that logic, buying items from the Cosmetics shop would be buying "Spoilers".
I guess I was in a hurry and I misunderstood this part where you said:
"Battlepass lets you very clearly see which Cosmetics you might want during a Season - rather than hoping that a Tulnar Scientific Metro finally appears and lasts long enough to unlock the Services and Artisan Buildings needed for the "achievable in-game" Cosmetics to appear somewhere."
The way I understood it was that cosmetics may appear somewhere but I don't know where and when unless something (BP, wiki) or somebody (YT) helps me.
You can clarify maybe.
The way I understood it was that cosmetics may appear somewhere but I don't know where and when unless something (BP, wiki) or somebody (YT) helps me.
You can clarify maybe.
Nah, Dygz was just talking about normal BPs that show all the cosmetics on their BP paths.
It's me that was advocating for stuff to be included into quests and stuff. Though that will still be the case even if the BP is in the game. But outside of those quests I want directly buyable cosmetics, so we'd still see all the purchasable stuff that's new.
The way I understood it was that cosmetics may appear somewhere but I don't know where and when unless something (BP, wiki) or somebody (YT) helps me.
You can clarify maybe.
Nah, Dygz was just talking about normal BPs that show all the cosmetics on their BP paths.
It's me that was advocating for stuff to be included into quests and stuff. Though that will still be the case even if the BP is in the game. But outside of those quests I want directly buyable cosmetics, so we'd still see all the purchasable stuff that's new.
I want it the same way as you say.
I am not sure what a "normal BP" is and how an abnormal would be.
Dygz almost agreed that in AoC context BPs can also be DLCs but then stopped answering me. Maybe I deserved being ignored for a while.
But I would prefer to go in details and examples focused on AoC rather than being sent to other games to learn how they use the BPs.
And then I can for sure identify what he wants (for others who play) and why he thinks that can be sold separately from a DLC and also if that can be integrated into the general risk vs reward philosophy of AoC.
But I would prefer to go in details and examples focused on AoC rather than being sent to other games to learn how they use the BPs.
And then I can for sure identify what he wants (for others who play) and why he thinks that can be sold separately from a DLC and also if that can be integrated into the general risk vs reward philosophy of AoC.
He simply equates content updates with BPs, because he's used to that new content coming out together with a BP. That's it.
"Normal BP" is just "you do shit in the game > it gives you separate XP > that XP levels up the BP > some of the BP lvls have cosmetic rewards > all BPs have a max lvl, that is recently able to be cleared within ~100h of gameplay". You can see all BP rewards in the BP UI, so as soon as it comes out - you'll know which cosmetics from it you'll want and which won't you don't care about.
There are BPs that simply give you those rewards and there're some that let you choose from a number of things, but if you level up the BP completely - you are usually able to get all the rewards from it.
In absolute majority of games there's a purchasable version of the BP that always has better and/or more cosmetics. It levels up in the same way and uses the same XP, so you could not buy it all the way up until you level up the free BP, and once you buy the paid one - you'll get all the rewards from it all at once.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Your argument was that it was an old statement: "The vid you posted is from 2018, the first year of development."
The wiki shows that both statements were made close to each-other, the same year. For the free game which was a battle royale they used payed updates (Legendary Path)
For the subscription based game they said the updates will be free on top of the subscription.
What??
APOC Battlepass had a free Adventure Path and a paid Legendary Path:
In 2018, a year before APOC, Steven said the Seasonal DLCs would be free.
He did not say, "We will never change our minds about that- we promise that the Seasonal DLCs will always be free."
Steven has promised that Ashes will never be P2W. Cosmetics are not P2W.
And....
In some games, the Battlepass is free and does not have a paid path.
Also, technically, the Seasonal Quests/Story/NPCs/Gear are free with the sub.
Additionally, you can get related free Cosmetics via a free BP path and, perhaps, premium Cosmetics via a paid BP path. Or you can ignore the BP paths.
They tried to monetize the free game and to collect even more money, with a buggy game, presenting it as an Early Access.
Just because they look the same and are made by the same people, does not mean you can expect they will use the same monetization if they said they will not.
What??
Intrepid added a paid BP path in addition to the free BP path for the free game, APOC.
I don't know why you added "tried to".
I can expect whatever I expect. I did not say that you have to expect the same thing that I do.
You can expect Intrepid to not include a BP. We do not have to share the same expectations.
We will see what happens.
But... Steven also said in 2018 that Ashes would not have any permanent Zones with FFA Corruption-free PvP. And then he added a very large one to the design in 2022.
It is easy to find complainers on the internet.
Many of the complaints were that they were expecting APOC to be an Alpha 1 for the MMORPG, but it turned out that Intrepid used a Battle Royale Game Mode in the same setting for testing, instead of having MMORPG rules and mechanics.
And then the actual Alpha 1 was 2 years later. Which was also 1 year past the "Before 2020" promise for release.
After Alpha 1 ended in 2021, STeven began to stress that "Everything is subject to change..." except for the core pillars.
No P2W is a core pillar.
Free Seasonal DLC is not a core pillar.
But Battelpass can be free. And also even with a paid, premium BP path - technically the Seasonal DLC is still free.
Just, the Seasonal DLC and the BP drop at the same time. And the Cosmetics on the BP are related to the themes of the theme of the Season.
Let's just say "DLCs appeal to players who are motivated by story" without the "and Cosmetics" part.
GW2 has a "pay to play" and sells the DLC and indeed has versions which cost more and the more expensive ones have additional cosmetics, gems, max level boosts...
But the story is the common part which has to be payed because they don't have a subscription model.
In AoC, we have monthly subscription which should cover all the new added story, quests, areas... without additional costs.
Therefore players who pay monthly (or a bigger amount an year in advance) should get the story for free and be able to buy cosmetics from the store with embers:
Let's say that.
The Seasonal DLC will be free. There will be Cosmetics in the Store for irl cash or Embers.
And... I expect there will also be a free BP associated with the story and theme of the free Seasonal DLC.
The BP might also include a paid premium BP path.
Both paths would likely have rewards that include heavily discounted Cosmetics and also a bundle of 50 Embers (as you can glimpse in the pic of the APOC BP) .
I expect the content of the Seasonal DLC to be able to completed in 20-30 hours - because they are mini-Expansions and I'd say an Expansion can typically be completed in 100 hours.
The BP helps extend the hours of gameplay for the players who typically quit playing once a DLC is completed. And it is typical that only 30%-40% of the peak player population continue to play after the DLC is completed.
Thus, with a BP the devs can have the population hit peak numbers for 100 hours 4 times a year, rather than having peak numbers for 100 hours every 12-18 months.
If they want, they can synchronize and present new cool skins, costumes, dyes etc with bigger updates and bundle them together as special offers in the store. If you buy all new cosmetics instead of each separately you might end up cheaper. But those packages should not be called DLCs or "Battle passes". Those are just store content.
If there is a BP, you can expect that the Cosmetics won't just be Store Content.
In that case, Cosmetics will be both Store Content and BP Content.
They could choose to only have the Cosmetics available in the Store - but that would likely mean that the average player would race to complete the DLC within one month, buy all the Cosmetics they want from the Store and then quit playing for 2 months.
A BP can entice players who love Cosmetics to play twice as long as they would without the BP.
A BP can also entice players to try out types of gameplay they might otherwise ignore.
If DLCs bring new cosmetics as part of completing story, those should be available for free for all, as they pay monthly subscription.
I don't believe that will quite happen without a BP.
With a free BP... players will earn a bunch of Season-related, free Cosmetics periodically as they play, they will probably have a couple of Cosmetics by the time they complete the story at 30 hours. And they will probably have 3x that number of Cosmetics once they complete the BP at ~100 hours.
Example 1: if a DLC will add a new jumping puzzle which sometime has new random skins from a pool of skins, that pool should be same for everyone.
There should be no pool of 12 skins because you purchased 2 of them in the store and others to have just a pool of 10 skins.
I think that example decribes a Quest and the rewards would be actual Gear and Gold and Adventurer XP rather than Cosmetics. (Could also be a Bulletin Board Task)
With a BP, there would be a Task, like "Complete a Jumping Puzzle 0/3" and doing so would move you closer to a BP Reward milestone. Just playing the game for x amount of time would likely also move you closer to a BP reward milsestone. Once you hit a BP Milestone, you will get a Skin or 50 Embers, etc.
See the APOC BP pic for reference.
Example 2: if a DLC unlocks through the additional story a new mount, then of course we have to complete the story and unlock the mount with the default in-game skin to have the thing onto which you apply the cosmetic. Or buy the mount from somebody who completed the story.
That would most likely unlock an actual Mount. Yes.
Example 3: Same as 2 but skin reward instead.
if a DLC unlocks through the additional story a new skin, then purchasing the same skin in the store (if available) should grant you the skin immediately and not force you to go and do quests or complete a story.
Unlikely that it would "unlock" new Skins to apply on that Mount without a BP.
Also, without a BP.... just because the Skins "unlock" does not mean we know for certain the Skins unlocked or where we could find them or what we might have to to do acquire them.
A BP shows us which Cosmetics are available for the Season - and then gives us tons of different ways we can acquire the Skins - we might prefer to "Craft a Staff 5/5", "Visit a Desert Biome 1/1" and "Eat a Dessert 5/5" in order to acquire the Mount Skin. Instead of "Complete a Jumping Puzzle 3/3 Stage 10 of 20".
Cosmetics should be visible in your inventory as soon as you own them.
I don't know what that is supposed to mean.
I think you're trying to say that if a Quest or Bulletin Board Task rewards you with a Cosmetic Item it should immediately go into your Inventory. But it is highly unlikely that Quests and Bulletin Board Tasks will reward Cosmetics. Most likely they will reward you with actual Gear/Mounts/Gold/Adventurer XP.
Cosmetics will either be bought from the Cosmetics Store or (possibly) be earned via completing several BP Tasks.
If there is a BP, there will most likely be a free BP path. Might, additionally, have a paid, premium BP path.
Certain mount types might be limited in time and purchase-able later from whoever wants to part with them. They do not die permanently (unlike ships in Eve).
Nodes will change too. Story evolves.
People will miss out the content which changes constantly as part of a living world concept.
That's fine for me. If they can make some story stay in-game as part of instanced content, that's ok.
The open world should change.
In a fashion war, one could say that buying the cosmetics from the store is pay to win.
And I want to be able to skip quests rather than being forced to do activities I do not want, just to get the cosmetics I purchased.
Imagine Steven forcing you to go into the deep ocean to get something you payed for.
I'm not quite sure what you think you mean, but...
That is basically what happened. And I paid $500 for that...
I upgraded to Braver of Worlds specifically because Steven said that Ashes would not have an area like the Open Seas.
I can expect whatever I expect. I did not say that you have to expect the same thing that I do.
You can expect Intrepid to not include a BP. We do not have to share the same expectations.
We will see what happens.
But... Steven also said in 2018 that Ashes would not have any permanent Zones with FFA Corruption-free PvP. And then he added a very large one to the design in 2022.
I can expect whatever I expect. I did not say that you have to expect the same thing that I do.
You can expect Intrepid to not include a BP. We do not have to share the same expectations.
We will see what happens.
But... Steven also said in 2018 that Ashes would not have any permanent Zones with FFA Corruption-free PvP. And then he added a very large one to the design in 2022.
I start to regret that I bought the Alpha 2 key.
Why, you knew when you bought it with the fomo (based on how most people felt about it) of each pack there was going to be cosmetics monetization?
no because battle passes give you things other than cosmetics as well.
You're now talking about a completely different BP that we've been discussing so far. Mag doesn't want any gameplay influence from BPs and I believe Dygz is fine with purely cosmetic BPs. And I've been talking about purely cosmetic BPs so far.
ok sorue, cosmetics only then. people don't buy based on logic, they buy do so based on emotion. chances are that the game will make more money by selling the bp even if the cosmetics costed the same amount. lets say a bp with 5 costemics for 10 USD, or those 5 cosmetic
Personally I hope this game is so successful Steven becomes a Billinoaire from it.
I don't.
The fact that billionaires exist is a flaw in our system. No one is working 100,000 times harder than most of humanity (88% of humanity is worth less than $100,000). Steven is an "ideas guy" who just happened to also be very wealthy in order to start funding this project and convince us to fund the rest of the game without getting any shares for it. Pretty good deal for him.
If he becomes a billionaire off this it is just another sign that the system is rigged to benefit those who are already on top. Lots of people have great ideas, but barely anyone has tens of millions of dollars to get their ideas off the ground.
when you play a game of monopoly, everybody starts equal and the rules apply equally to every player. however, as the game goes on, the resources stat accumulating in the hands of a few and everybody else gets eliminated. eventually, only one player wins. is this a flaw?
this happens normally in life too. its not a flaw in the system. this is just what happens when you play a game to its conclusion.
this appleis to many things in life. not every basketball player is good enough to be in the nba, and not all nba players are equally good. not every body is michael jordan, kobe, lebron, etc. are you gonna say its a flaw in the system that players who work harder get on top?
do you want the best doctor or the worst doctor in the world to perform surgery on you? shouldnt the best doctor earn more?
there isnt anything wrong with being abillonaire. you arent seeing all the effort, dedication and sacrifice that comes with it. steven had to spend close to 2 decades working, making decisions, failing, etc to make his millions. most companies dont even survive the first 5 years,a nd only very few become unicorns.
he didnt just have an idea, he executed it. lots of people have ideas all the time, good and bad and they stay there...just ideas. some execute them and don't become millionaires. his idea and 2 decades of work accumulating wealth created 200 jobs or so, and is giving something that we all want. he is giving value back. if he becomes a millionaire, he could make more games, create more jobs, etc, etc. but hey why dnt you have an idea and become a billionaire?XD
anyways, whats the alternative? communism so we are all equal...equally starving and dead.
ok sorue, cosmetics only then. people don't buy based on logic, they buy do so based on emotion. chances are that the game will make more money by selling the bp even if the cosmetics costed the same amount. lets say a bp with 5 costemics for 10 USD, or those 5 cosmetic
Are there even games out there with true microtransactions right now? Like both Mag and Dygz keep saying "it's a discounts, and that's so good for the player". This shit is ingrained in people's brains by now, so instead of true microtransactions of <$1 costs we have shit like BPs, who sell you stuff at that price, but then also require you to keep playing the game for longer to even get what you paid for.
I think the only games with microtransactions are probably Valve's stuff, cause the market has stuff at miniscule prices. I would definitely prefer if Intrepid went back to the times of mtx.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 30
You would not be playing the game for longer because you would be playing the game anyway.
LEGO Fortnite gives you BP xp very 10 minutes for the first 3 hours - up to 5 Levels per day.
Again, the NW Battlepass path I play is free, so those Cosmetics are $0.
I don't play the paid path of the NW Battlepass. And it's the exact same amount of time for free path and paid pass. The paid path just gives you twice as many rewards.
I play the free path because it's there at the same time the new story content drops... and I play past the story/Quest content because the Battlepass rewards me with related Cosmetics I would like for continuing to do stuff in the game even after the new story and new Quests end.
With WoW, I'm playing the free version of the Battlepass that comes with paying the subscription.
And the predatory scam with WoW is that it's a recurring payment you have to actively cancel.
And it tends to be the case that 2 months pass by before I realize I'm not playing WoW anymore - so I've paid 2 or 3 months for nothing.
Which is way worse than a Battlepass.
With Fortnite -again- I love their characters so much that I will spend around $100 a month collecting characters. Just as I used to collect action figures when I was a kid. And similar to how dude collect Funko Pops.
The prices for the items in the Fortnite Shop are commensurate with the prices in the Ashes Shop and the NW Shop and the WoW Shop.
I'm still going to pay around $100 per month for the items in the Fortnite Shop in any case - whether I'm playing that month or not. And sure, it's a no brainer to pay $10 monthly to be a member of the Fortnite Crew, instantly get a new character each month and a bunch of other perks that include a Battlepass which will give me 7+ characters for LEGO + another 7 variations in the BR.
$30 for 10 characters is better than $10 for one character.
Battlepass doesn't have you playing longer to get items via Tasks any more than Quests do.
The primary differences are that Tasks are quicker and easier to complete and they will continue to be offered after Quests have all been completed.
Also, Task activities are much, much broader in terms of variety than Quests.
I dunno why you are obsessed with the paid paths of some Battlepasses when Battlepasses typically have a free path.
You would not be playing the game for longer because you would be playing the game anyway.
and I play past the story content because the Battlepass rewards me with related Cosmetics I would like for continuing to do stuff in the game even after the story ends.
These 2 statements contradict your argument against what I said.
You say yourself, there's only 40-60h of content in a new season. But you keep playing for ~60-40h more because the BP hasn't given you all of the rewards yet. Which is exactly what I said.
I dunno why you are obsessed with the paid paths of some Battlepasses when Battlepasses typically have a free path.
Because I've been discussing with both you and Mag. And while your side of the discussion has been purely about players playing for 100h instead of 40-60, Mag's side has always been about "this shit makes a ton of money, so it should stay if Intrepid need money".
I've already stated my opinion on the free part of the BP. That shit should be included in the game itself, rather than being tied to forced gameplay hours.
Comments
No.
Sure. It takes about 100 hours to reach BP Level 100.
As I said, I hit BP Level 5 in 45 minutes. So there is not a 1-1 correlation as if it's always 1 Level per 1 hour.
You travel down the paid BP at the same time you travel down the free one.
If I had paid for the APOC Legendary Path, I would get a paid reward at every Stage and a free reward every even-numbered Stage. When I hit Stage 4, I would get both the free and paid rewards.
For the LEGO Fortnite Rebel Pass:
It takes 11K Studs to complete the BP.
At 2K Studs, I would have unlocked 2 items on the free path and 2 items on the paid path.
Notice that this BP began May 3. I completed it in 14 days. There are still 56 days left.
On the previous Main BP....
I reached Level 100, but I only claimed 94/100 Items on the BP.
Because I did not have to claim every single reward to get the final one - Zeus.
In order to unlock the 2 Pages of Bonus Rewards (total of 10 rewards), you have to first claim all 100/100 Items on the Main BP.
(I'm currently Level 16, but I've claimed 19 Items)
I mean...well, the "price" of getting those items dirt cheap, at a massive discount (or for FREE if it's the free path), is doing stuff in the game that you mostly already like to do - for 100 hours.
With a BP, you get at least 5x the value of one purchase from the Cosmetics Shop.
I'll be playing the game for 100h either way. But if I'm paying for something, I want it now, unless it's a preorder. Do you consider BP to be a "preorder" of cosmetics?
And I also don't care about other costs of things, because they are all made up. I care about how the company values their devtime. If the paid BP's cosmetics are of the same quality as the directly sold ones - the company is literally lying to our faces and robbing anyone who buys the cosmetics directly, because the value of devtime on any given cosmetic is equal to however much a cosmetic is worth when you divide the cost of the BP by the amount of cosmetics in it.
If there's 10 cosmetics in the paid BP and the BP costs $10, that means that the company values their dev time of making one cosmetic at $1. So any other cosmetic of similar quality should also cost one dollar. Anything else is a scam.
Any free cosmetic is included in the sub cost of the game, just as other in-game rewards are, and I fully expect their quality to be less than that of the paid ones (even if Steven claims that they won't be).
It's obvious that you're fine with paying way more for something that costs way less, but I am personally not.
A scam?
From Epic Games?
Surely you jest!
Dygz will by one, if it has a story.
But the Bonus Rewards do not unlock just for reaching Level 100. I'll triple check that for you once I unlock the Bonus Rewards on the current BP.
I just didn't want any of the Bonus Rewards so...
I don't understand what you mean. That's like saying if you're paying a subscription, you should get all of the BiS Gear and other rewards in the game without doing any Quests or Dungeons or Raids.
I don't consider BP to be a "preorder".
I consider BP Tasks to be mini-quests.
Clearly you do care about the cost of things since you are complaining about the cost of things.
I kinda already think most of the Items in the Intrepid Store are too expensive without a BP - so if I can get a bunch at a discount with a BP, I will run the BP instead of paying for stuff in the Store.
Which is exactly what I do with NW and WoW.
Without a BP, the cheapest Item in the Store is going to be $5. Most are going to be $10+.
Mounts cost $20. For WoW and for the Ashes Shop. I'm probably not going to buy more Mounts for that price.
But, if I can pay 2 Mounts for playing the free track of a BP - in addition to a bunch of other rewards, I will play the free path of the BP.
And if I can pay $10 to also get 4 Mounts plus 1 Flying Mount Skin on the paid path, I will happily pay $10 to get 7 Mounts plus a bunch of other rewards for half the price of 1 Mount in the Shop.
No one is going to force you to go for the discounted items if you don't want to.
I mean... yes... there's not going to be free cosmetics without a BP.
If there is BP with a free path then the Cosmetics on that path would be discounted to free during the time they are available on the BP. And they will be included with the price of the subscription.
I'm fine with taking advantage of discounts for stuff I'd like to purchase.
I would say that the free Skins will be less ornate and less flashy the the paid Skins.
Whether an individual considers less ornate and less flashy to be lower quality when it comes to Ashes items is going to be subjective.
If I recall correctly, there were several sets of gear on the free path that I prefered over the Legendary Path gear.
Paying for a BP doesn't give you access to the thing you paid for, because it requires you to spend time earning what you paid for. I personally dislike that in a sub-based game, because I already paid for my gameplay, so why should I be required to pay more just to play more.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cosmetics
Equitable cosmetics, both from a quantity and quality standpoint, are achievable through in-game means.[5][6] Cosmetics achievable in-game will be on-par, and in the case of legendary skins, even more elaborate than shop items.[7][8][2]
There will be legendary cosmetics that are only achievable in-game that will never be offered in the cosmetic shop.[7][8][2]
Or did you mean "everyone will pay for the sub, so nothing is free"?
Even if he says he doesn't play the game, if it has an ocean like AoC then he will not participate.
Not if is close to the ocean.
You cannot say BPs are good because they are cheaper than the same things they put up to sell at a higher price without BP.
This strategy exists for real products too not only virtual items.
That is called price anchoring or decoy pricing.
You still have to play for hundreds of hours to get all of the rewards that drop in the game - or even that you Craft in the game.
It gives the same access that Quests and Dungeons and Raids give.
We'll just know at the beginning of each Season what all the available items on the BP will be without having to look at a wiki or YouTube vid.
I think, based on that quote, that "achieveable in the game" does not mean that you can just grab those Cosmetics any time you wish just because you paid the sub.
Without a BP, you may never know which paramaters need to be unlocked before the Cosmetics you want appear somewhere on the server.
And on some servers, the Cosmetics you want might never become available. Technically they will be achievable, but the parameters for them to appear would never be met on that server.
Otherwise, there is no purpose for the Cosmetics Shop.
The Cosmetics Shop makes it quick and easy for people to obtain the specific items they want - when those items rotate into the Shop.
But they are going to be on par with the prices in the original Ashes Shop and the WoW Shop and the NW Shop.
It's going to be fairly expensive. Like ~$20 for a Mount and $25 for a Freehold Skin.
I don't know what makes you think that a free BP path cannot be the same thing as Cosmetics "achievable in the game".
And I don't know why you would think that free Cosmetics "achievable in the game" would mean immediately available just for paying the sub - rather than "you have to do a bunch of stuff in the game to achieve the Cosmetics".
Battlepass lets you very clearly see which Cosmetics you might want during a Season - rather than hoping that a Tulnar Scientific Metro finally is finally established and lasts long enough to unlock the Services and Artisan Buildings needed for the "achievable in-game" Cosmetics to appear somewhere.
A couple handfuls of free Cosmetics on a free BP path, where you clearly know what you will get for doing a bunch of different stuff in the game, is better than playing the same number of hours and never knowing if the Cosmetics you want will appear on the server any time soon.
And, if they have a paid BP path with a couple handfuls of heavily discounted Cosmetics in-between the free Cosmetics and the Legendary Cosmetics...
That is also win/win.
You will still have to do 100 hours worth of gameplay to get those "achieveable in-game" Cosmetics.
Just like you have to do with gear.
You seem to be thinking that wiki quote stated that you pay for the sub, log in and then immediately walk over to an NPC and grab 5 handfuls of free Cosmetics just because you paid a sub.
It's definitely not going to work like that.
If a youtuber buys the BP and then makes a walk-through in the wiki how to get those cosmetics, then do you think people will still buy such in-game guides to such rewards?
Also they make the game worse for those who refuse to watch spoilers. The way you describe this is like selling spoilers.
Even if you buy cosmetics in the game like a mount or a freehold, you still you need get it in game to apply the skin. To add even more onto that point.
To add more to the confusion not point.
I gave 3 examples before. If we pay for skins, those should be available immediately.
I don't.
The fact that billionaires exist is a flaw in our system. No one is working 100,000 times harder than most of humanity (88% of humanity is worth less than $100,000). Steven is an "ideas guy" who just happened to also be very wealthy in order to start funding this project and convince us to fund the rest of the game without getting any shares for it. Pretty good deal for him.
If he becomes a billionaire off this it is just another sign that the system is rigged to benefit those who are already on top. Lots of people have great ideas, but barely anyone has tens of millions of dollars to get their ideas off the ground.
BP's only content is the cosmetics. But you don't get the access to them unless you spend a ton of time doing something else that you've paid even more for.
And as Mag said, even if you did get the cosmetic immediately after purchase - there's still a requirement to use it, just as there is a requirement to lvl up to enter a dungeon that's higher lvl than you.
Except in a BP you don't get that cosmetic immediately, which is my issue with the system.
I've already proposed a system that lets you see all the new cosmetics, just as a BP would.
There'd still be quests that have unknown rewards, just as there will be such quest if Ashes did get a BP, so nothing changes there.
But in my proposed system you don't need to play for a hundred hours to get the one cosmetic you want. You only play for as long as that cosmetic costs in the npc store and you then just buy it.
But it literally doesn't have to be. That's my entire point. It's Intrepid who set the prices and they base those prices on internal devtime costs.
Obviously there will be more expensive pieces, priced at the same value as the bundle ones, but all the other cosmetics (that might've been in a BP) can simply be priced at the BP-equivalent price.
People will already be playing the game if it's good. And I already said I'm more than welcoming proper in-game pointers to content that would make people like you play the game for longer. But I simply want Intrepid not to fuck people over by saying "oooh, this little belt is ON DISCOUUUNT!!! GET YOUR DISCOUUUUNTS! ONLY NOW ONLY HERE!!!"
Set a range of prices. Set a quality (ornateness) standard for all the price ranges and simply sell them w/o rotations fuckations or anything else. And the same should apply to the free ones that get added along the way. I want new players, that come into the game 2 years after the release, to have a huge range of cosmetics to choose from when they get enough cosmetic tokens to buy one.
We will already have fomo-af cosmetics from the bundle, so why keep going with that system even after the release? Why fuck people over on purpose? And yes, telling people "just keep playing the game for 2 fucking years, cause that's when the current BP will have a rerun" is also fucking people over.
I would know, because that's the exact strategy gacha games use. It's one of the most predatory practices in the industry and you are expecting it to be the norm in Ashes. Why? Why not hope for something better than trash?
If there is a BP, why would people need a walkthrough for how to get the Cosmetics?
I don't know what you mean by "Spoilers".
By that logic, buying items from the Cosmetics shop would be buying "Spoilers".
I guess I was in a hurry and I misunderstood this part where you said:
"Battlepass lets you very clearly see which Cosmetics you might want during a Season - rather than hoping that a Tulnar Scientific Metro finally appears and lasts long enough to unlock the Services and Artisan Buildings needed for the "achievable in-game" Cosmetics to appear somewhere."
The way I understood it was that cosmetics may appear somewhere but I don't know where and when unless something (BP, wiki) or somebody (YT) helps me.
You can clarify maybe.
It's me that was advocating for stuff to be included into quests and stuff. Though that will still be the case even if the BP is in the game. But outside of those quests I want directly buyable cosmetics, so we'd still see all the purchasable stuff that's new.
I want it the same way as you say.
I am not sure what a "normal BP" is and how an abnormal would be.
Dygz almost agreed that in AoC context BPs can also be DLCs but then stopped answering me. Maybe I deserved being ignored for a while.
But I would prefer to go in details and examples focused on AoC rather than being sent to other games to learn how they use the BPs.
And then I can for sure identify what he wants (for others who play) and why he thinks that can be sold separately from a DLC and also if that can be integrated into the general risk vs reward philosophy of AoC.
"Normal BP" is just "you do shit in the game > it gives you separate XP > that XP levels up the BP > some of the BP lvls have cosmetic rewards > all BPs have a max lvl, that is recently able to be cleared within ~100h of gameplay". You can see all BP rewards in the BP UI, so as soon as it comes out - you'll know which cosmetics from it you'll want and which won't you don't care about.
There are BPs that simply give you those rewards and there're some that let you choose from a number of things, but if you level up the BP completely - you are usually able to get all the rewards from it.
In absolute majority of games there's a purchasable version of the BP that always has better and/or more cosmetics. It levels up in the same way and uses the same XP, so you could not buy it all the way up until you level up the free BP, and once you buy the paid one - you'll get all the rewards from it all at once.
APOC Battlepass had a free Adventure Path and a paid Legendary Path:
In 2018, a year before APOC, Steven said the Seasonal DLCs would be free.
He did not say, "We will never change our minds about that- we promise that the Seasonal DLCs will always be free."
Steven has promised that Ashes will never be P2W. Cosmetics are not P2W.
And....
In some games, the Battlepass is free and does not have a paid path.
Also, technically, the Seasonal Quests/Story/NPCs/Gear are free with the sub.
Additionally, you can get related free Cosmetics via a free BP path and, perhaps, premium Cosmetics via a paid BP path. Or you can ignore the BP paths.
What??
Intrepid added a paid BP path in addition to the free BP path for the free game, APOC.
I don't know why you added "tried to".
I can expect whatever I expect. I did not say that you have to expect the same thing that I do.
You can expect Intrepid to not include a BP. We do not have to share the same expectations.
We will see what happens.
But... Steven also said in 2018 that Ashes would not have any permanent Zones with FFA Corruption-free PvP. And then he added a very large one to the design in 2022.
It is easy to find complainers on the internet.
Many of the complaints were that they were expecting APOC to be an Alpha 1 for the MMORPG, but it turned out that Intrepid used a Battle Royale Game Mode in the same setting for testing, instead of having MMORPG rules and mechanics.
And then the actual Alpha 1 was 2 years later. Which was also 1 year past the "Before 2020" promise for release.
After Alpha 1 ended in 2021, STeven began to stress that "Everything is subject to change..." except for the core pillars.
No P2W is a core pillar.
Free Seasonal DLC is not a core pillar.
But Battelpass can be free. And also even with a paid, premium BP path - technically the Seasonal DLC is still free.
Just, the Seasonal DLC and the BP drop at the same time. And the Cosmetics on the BP are related to the themes of the theme of the Season.
Let's say that.
The Seasonal DLC will be free. There will be Cosmetics in the Store for irl cash or Embers.
And... I expect there will also be a free BP associated with the story and theme of the free Seasonal DLC.
The BP might also include a paid premium BP path.
Both paths would likely have rewards that include heavily discounted Cosmetics and also a bundle of 50 Embers (as you can glimpse in the pic of the APOC BP) .
I expect the content of the Seasonal DLC to be able to completed in 20-30 hours - because they are mini-Expansions and I'd say an Expansion can typically be completed in 100 hours.
The BP helps extend the hours of gameplay for the players who typically quit playing once a DLC is completed. And it is typical that only 30%-40% of the peak player population continue to play after the DLC is completed.
Thus, with a BP the devs can have the population hit peak numbers for 100 hours 4 times a year, rather than having peak numbers for 100 hours every 12-18 months.
If there is a BP, you can expect that the Cosmetics won't just be Store Content.
In that case, Cosmetics will be both Store Content and BP Content.
They could choose to only have the Cosmetics available in the Store - but that would likely mean that the average player would race to complete the DLC within one month, buy all the Cosmetics they want from the Store and then quit playing for 2 months.
A BP can entice players who love Cosmetics to play twice as long as they would without the BP.
A BP can also entice players to try out types of gameplay they might otherwise ignore.
I don't believe that will quite happen without a BP.
With a free BP... players will earn a bunch of Season-related, free Cosmetics periodically as they play, they will probably have a couple of Cosmetics by the time they complete the story at 30 hours. And they will probably have 3x that number of Cosmetics once they complete the BP at ~100 hours.
I think that example decribes a Quest and the rewards would be actual Gear and Gold and Adventurer XP rather than Cosmetics. (Could also be a Bulletin Board Task)
With a BP, there would be a Task, like "Complete a Jumping Puzzle 0/3" and doing so would move you closer to a BP Reward milestone. Just playing the game for x amount of time would likely also move you closer to a BP reward milsestone. Once you hit a BP Milestone, you will get a Skin or 50 Embers, etc.
See the APOC BP pic for reference.
That would most likely unlock an actual Mount. Yes.
Unlikely that it would "unlock" new Skins to apply on that Mount without a BP.
Also, without a BP.... just because the Skins "unlock" does not mean we know for certain the Skins unlocked or where we could find them or what we might have to to do acquire them.
A BP shows us which Cosmetics are available for the Season - and then gives us tons of different ways we can acquire the Skins - we might prefer to "Craft a Staff 5/5", "Visit a Desert Biome 1/1" and "Eat a Dessert 5/5" in order to acquire the Mount Skin. Instead of "Complete a Jumping Puzzle 3/3 Stage 10 of 20".
I don't know what that is supposed to mean.
I think you're trying to say that if a Quest or Bulletin Board Task rewards you with a Cosmetic Item it should immediately go into your Inventory. But it is highly unlikely that Quests and Bulletin Board Tasks will reward Cosmetics. Most likely they will reward you with actual Gear/Mounts/Gold/Adventurer XP.
Cosmetics will either be bought from the Cosmetics Store or (possibly) be earned via completing several BP Tasks.
If there is a BP, there will most likely be a free BP path. Might, additionally, have a paid, premium BP path.
Sure.
I'm not expecting a Fashion war.
I'm not quite sure what you think you mean, but...
That is basically what happened. And I paid $500 for that...
I upgraded to Braver of Worlds specifically because Steven said that Ashes would not have an area like the Open Seas.
I have not asked for any changes.
I did not ask for Steven to add a BP.
I said I expect Ashes will have a BP.
Gotta win the argument.
I start to regret that I bought the Alpha 2 key.
Why, you knew when you bought it with the fomo (based on how most people felt about it) of each pack there was going to be cosmetics monetization?
ok sorue, cosmetics only then. people don't buy based on logic, they buy do so based on emotion. chances are that the game will make more money by selling the bp even if the cosmetics costed the same amount. lets say a bp with 5 costemics for 10 USD, or those 5 cosmetic
when you play a game of monopoly, everybody starts equal and the rules apply equally to every player. however, as the game goes on, the resources stat accumulating in the hands of a few and everybody else gets eliminated. eventually, only one player wins. is this a flaw?
this happens normally in life too. its not a flaw in the system. this is just what happens when you play a game to its conclusion.
this appleis to many things in life. not every basketball player is good enough to be in the nba, and not all nba players are equally good. not every body is michael jordan, kobe, lebron, etc. are you gonna say its a flaw in the system that players who work harder get on top?
do you want the best doctor or the worst doctor in the world to perform surgery on you? shouldnt the best doctor earn more?
there isnt anything wrong with being abillonaire. you arent seeing all the effort, dedication and sacrifice that comes with it. steven had to spend close to 2 decades working, making decisions, failing, etc to make his millions. most companies dont even survive the first 5 years,a nd only very few become unicorns.
he didnt just have an idea, he executed it. lots of people have ideas all the time, good and bad and they stay there...just ideas. some execute them and don't become millionaires. his idea and 2 decades of work accumulating wealth created 200 jobs or so, and is giving something that we all want. he is giving value back. if he becomes a millionaire, he could make more games, create more jobs, etc, etc. but hey why dnt you have an idea and become a billionaire?XD
anyways, whats the alternative? communism so we are all equal...equally starving and dead.
I think the only games with microtransactions are probably Valve's stuff, cause the market has stuff at miniscule prices. I would definitely prefer if Intrepid went back to the times of mtx.
LEGO Fortnite gives you BP xp very 10 minutes for the first 3 hours - up to 5 Levels per day.
Again, the NW Battlepass path I play is free, so those Cosmetics are $0.
I don't play the paid path of the NW Battlepass. And it's the exact same amount of time for free path and paid pass. The paid path just gives you twice as many rewards.
I play the free path because it's there at the same time the new story content drops... and I play past the story/Quest content because the Battlepass rewards me with related Cosmetics I would like for continuing to do stuff in the game even after the new story and new Quests end.
With WoW, I'm playing the free version of the Battlepass that comes with paying the subscription.
And the predatory scam with WoW is that it's a recurring payment you have to actively cancel.
And it tends to be the case that 2 months pass by before I realize I'm not playing WoW anymore - so I've paid 2 or 3 months for nothing.
Which is way worse than a Battlepass.
With Fortnite -again- I love their characters so much that I will spend around $100 a month collecting characters. Just as I used to collect action figures when I was a kid. And similar to how dude collect Funko Pops.
The prices for the items in the Fortnite Shop are commensurate with the prices in the Ashes Shop and the NW Shop and the WoW Shop.
I'm still going to pay around $100 per month for the items in the Fortnite Shop in any case - whether I'm playing that month or not. And sure, it's a no brainer to pay $10 monthly to be a member of the Fortnite Crew, instantly get a new character each month and a bunch of other perks that include a Battlepass which will give me 7+ characters for LEGO + another 7 variations in the BR.
$30 for 10 characters is better than $10 for one character.
Battlepass doesn't have you playing longer to get items via Tasks any more than Quests do.
The primary differences are that Tasks are quicker and easier to complete and they will continue to be offered after Quests have all been completed.
Also, Task activities are much, much broader in terms of variety than Quests.
I dunno why you are obsessed with the paid paths of some Battlepasses when Battlepasses typically have a free path.
You say yourself, there's only 40-60h of content in a new season. But you keep playing for ~60-40h more because the BP hasn't given you all of the rewards yet. Which is exactly what I said.
Because I've been discussing with both you and Mag. And while your side of the discussion has been purely about players playing for 100h instead of 40-60, Mag's side has always been about "this shit makes a ton of money, so it should stay if Intrepid need money".
I've already stated my opinion on the free part of the BP. That shit should be included in the game itself, rather than being tied to forced gameplay hours.