Battlepass in MMOs

I watched this one. It still doesn't really explain what you need to do, but Dygz already explained that several times, so I just combined the two (though this video does show that there are daily quests, which give big BP XP boosts).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA3Vn_hLjqA

Timed releases with previews to promote early boost of playtime metrics across the game, with initial release of one big cosmetic that would push any person with weak self-control to pour money into lvl boosts to get it asap.

And cosmetics being locked behind lvls requires you to get involved in the BP leveling, as opposed to a direct purchase that would give you the item immediately. And apparently previous BPs required even more interaction with the BP (i.e. buying items on one page of the BP before being able to progress to the next), so they had an even bigger impact on gameplay flow, in the exact way I dislike.

Happy for Fortnite to have moved on past that, but considering that this was from just a year ago, I'd imagine that there are still a ton of games that do require you to heavily interact with the BP UI to progress it (namely, NW).

Here's a calculator for the current season. And according to this Fortnite does have dailies and it's quite beneficial to do them as well.
https://www.fortnitexp.net/index.html

If you get around 200k xp per day (weeklies included) - that's around 40 days of daily playing and doing correct actions to get the max lvl.

I got no clue how much xp you can get from milestone stuff daily and if that's grindable or not, so it's difficult to say what kind of daily XP ceiling there is.

This still directly aligns with my grievances with the system. You gotta do certain dailies, certain weeklies, certain tasks - all in hopes that there isn't an upper limit on XP gain per day/week and in hopes that all those activities are even marginally interesting to you and/or align with all your other plans for your gameplay sessions.

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Hinotori wrote: »

I thought most of us didn't want that.

Most of us still don't. So far it's mostly only Dygz and Mag that are vehemently fighting to get chores in the game. Though they're fighting for that for different reasons

They both want to destroy the game.

Destroy the game lol? Its called being realistic as there is a market place and they clearly need to make lot of mooney to both support the devs and be able to grow the IP.

I'm curious.

If you think this will make more money for Intrepid, where is that money coming from?

It has to be one of three places. Either more players are buying the same cosmetic via battlepass than would buy it via a store, the same number of people are paying more for that same cosmetic, or battlepass is causing people to stay subscribed longer than they otherwise would.

Which of these three do you believe would happen?

There is no fourth option, by the way. Other options simply don't fit in with your desire to be realistic, as your above post states.

Its not one particular thing its overall everything, on top of it being a good deal for players and can save money. This isn't about one thing being the top overall sales just more options for more types of players. Sub fee, BP, and store cosmetics. And by the way they could not call it a battle pass and call it a premium subscription with increased value where you can earn more cosmetics from playing the game and it works the same way.

NiKr wrote: »

Here's a calculator for the current season. And according to this Fortnite does have dailies and it's quite beneficial to do them as well.
https://www.fortnitexp.net/index.html

If you get around 200k xp per day (weeklies included) - that's around 40 days of daily playing and doing correct actions to get the max lvl.

I got no clue how much xp you can get from milestone stuff daily and if that's grindable or not, so it's difficult to say what kind of daily XP ceiling there is.

This still directly aligns with my grievances with the system. You gotta do certain dailies, certain weeklies, certain tasks - all in hopes that there isn't an upper limit on XP gain per day/week and in hopes that all those activities are even marginally interesting to you and/or align with all your other plans for your gameplay sessions.

You are effectively ignoring what we are saying and going off Fortnite a BP in a mmorpg and fortnite are not going to be the same. This is why i referenced Destiny or you can even reference xdefiant which just came out.

You are stuck in trying to say a BP tells you what to do when we keep saying a battlepass does not. So we are going to keep going in circles because you are refusing to listen and trying to argue something we are not talking about. You do not need to do dailies or weeklies to get XP and finish it (you can play the game as you always have). If you are trying to min max and finish it extremely fast than that is on you and doesn't even mean it will really finish extremely fast.

Liniker wrote: »

I just think its insane for a game with a mandatory monthly sub to charge extra for a battlepass, this would be one of the worst shit shows ever, worse than the Battle Royale was, the large audience would bash the game, AoC would be a bigger meme than Diablo Imortal was,

from a battle royale, to a 250$ alpha, to a monthly sub game with battlepass... whats next a VIP system on top of that? jesus.. at least its not on Steam for the overwhelmingly negative reviews...

Hopefully intrepid is self aware and learned their lesson

This makes 0 sense, effectively you are saying its the same as a p2w game where you can spend half a million dollars to max out in a rng gambling game.

Last i checked we are talking about a BP not rng enhancing / p2w.

What would be next would be a box cost to make up for cost instead of removing it and going with that model instead.

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are stuck in trying to say a BP tells you what to do when we keep saying a battlepass does not. So we are going to keep going in circles because you are refusing to listen and trying to argue something we are not talking about. You do not need to do dailies or weeklies to get XP and finish it (you can play the game as you always have). If you are trying to min max and finish it extremely fast than that is on you and doesn't even mean it will really finish extremely fast.

I already addressed this in a previous post, so reiterating it would be pointless, cause it was obviously ignored.

I also use Fortnite as an example because Dygz brings it up constantly as one. Dygz said that modern BPs don't have dailies/weeklies/whateverlies, but they not only apparently do, but are also beneficial (and optimal) to complete, cause they give a ton of xp.

I also literally said, I don't know how much XP the milestones do (the "do whatever and get xp" tasks that you both keep bringing up), so if Dygz can give an example of how much XP he gets from them per daily session of doing his own thing - that'd be great.

And if you have a visual/written examples of the BPs you mention - you're free and welcomed to provide them.

I talked to a couple of people that play Fortnight and Modern Warfare 2.
Their take on the BP for both was they are very predatory towards people with low self control and/or bad with money. Most people pay the $10 to get the pass then as they play they spend another $5 here $10 there and not realize how it adds up over the months and years. Not to mention the time constraints placed on them.

Those I talked to realized what they were doing and stopped. But based on the companies making billions on this most people are to busy over dosing on dopamine chasing the latest shiny to realize their biology and psychology have been weaponized against them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8wM-TVIqSA

This guy has a more balanced view on the passes but said what I said at the end. We need to expect better.

bloodprophet wrote: »

Ya I find it very sketchy. I would think if it was a good thing and you were proud of it you would just provide a list for your customers of what they can expect this season on the BP.

Fortnite provides a full list of what's available on the Main Path.
This video conflates the Shop with the Battlepass - especially in terms of items rotating on a daily basis.
You know from day one of the new Season everything that will be available on the Main Battlepass. There is also a (free) Bonus Path that unlocks when you complete the Main Path.

There are 14 Pages of rewards on the Main Battlepass. Each page has 7 rewards. We se all of those items.
The Bonus Path unlocks after you fully complete the Main Path. Each page has 5 rewards.
On the Bonus Path, we see all the items on the first 3 Pages. The final 3 Pages are ??? for the first 30 days and then rewards for the final 3 Pages are revealed.

The Shop is where the fomo is. Most of the items there - especially character skins - are rotated in and out each day. So, I do check the Store every day to see if there's anything I want to purchase. Even during months when I'm not playing.
Common characters rotate back in a few times each month.
There are some very rare characters who won't be available again for more than a year.

bloodprophet wrote: »

The point on spending money to then play 100 hours and still not get what you paid for is super sketchy. In a F2P game I get you're trying to make money but at a minimum be honest with your customers.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. How would you play 100 hours and not get what you paid for??
I think I finished this latest Battlepass in around 100 hours?? I got to 94/100 Levels got all the rewards I wanted (including the big one at the end (I skipped a few minor rewards I didn't care about) and then stopped paying attention to the BP.
And I think I missed the first 9 weeks of the Battlepass because I was playing other games.
There is plenty of time to finish to get the items you want. Maybe if you don't play at all until the final 2 weeks out of 3 months, you might not be able to squeeze in 100 hours.

bloodprophet wrote: »

The companies keep doing this because people reward them for it. Is like most of what ails global society. If we keep rewarding this poor behavior it will continue.

Companies keep doing it because it's win/win for both the companies and the players.
What's the poor behavior??
They got rid of the frustrating fomo that used to plague Dailies 5 years ago.

bloodprophet wrote: »

This guy has a more balanced view on the passes but said what I said at the end. We need to expect better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8wM-TVIqSA

Um. Why would you be expecting this one to be much better than the first one when it starts with -
"That was a great Battlepass... said no one EVER!" ????
That's not a balanced view - and... of course it's going to say what you said in the end.
Garbage in/Garbage out

One thing I'm trying to understand in this video is what it means to say "They tell much less of an interesting story."
Yes. The whole point of a Battlepass for an MMORPG is that you can introduce new content and rewards and even a bit of a story more quickly than the 18 months it takes to create an expansion. And, yes, that's going to keep players who aren't interested in chasing BiS gear and who are more interested in more Casual-Challenge gameplay and Cosmetics playing the game longer.

But, you're still playing the game - and the start of a new Season typically comes with some new story. And the items on the Battlepass are typically tied to the theme of the story.
The new Story Chapter for Fortnite is themed around Mad Max and Fallout.
Battlepasses aren't really microtransactions? The Fortnite shop is microtransactions - but the Battlepass isn't, really.

Hmmn. I mean...
Again, the price for the Premium Battlepass is usually around the same cost as one item in the Cosmetics Store. And in every game with a Battlepass I've played - the Cosmetics Store has existed at least a year or two before the BP is introduced.
It doesn't just feel like I'm being rewarded for playing a game I would be playing anyway, I'm actually getting rewards I like - and I know all of the rewards at the start of the season - as opposed to not knowing all of the available Quests or their rewards. If I'm not interested in the theme or story or items associated with the Battlepass, I'll probably not play. But, if I do play, and purchase the Premium Pass, I still get a whole bunch of fun stuff for the price of one item from the Cosmetics Store (and way cheaper than most stuff there).

And no... again... you have 3 months to finish the Battlepass. And it takes about 100 hours.
So, that's like playing 9 hours per week. Which is pretty Casual-Time play.
It's not difficult to reach the end of a Battlepass. You can pay to unlock Levels if you wish. Sure.
If you get the rewards from the Cash Shop, they will definitely be more expensive than the $10 in the Cash Shop because the Battlepass is a discount.

This is kinda like how people claim that dying while Green has twice the death penalties as dying while Purple.
When it's really that dying while Purple is half the Death Penalties as dying while Green.
It is not the case that BP items are jacked up in price when they are in the Cash Shop.
Cash Shop came first. The BP is a massive discount.

He says another great example is Deep Rock Galactic - which is pretty much how the Fortnite Battlepass works. Also NW. And the WoW Season Pass is kinda similar.

The precedence for Intrepid is a free track and a premium/paid track.
That's what APOC had. And I expect the same for Ashes.
Modern Seasonal Battlepass really don't have much fomo.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are stuck in trying to say a BP tells you what to do when we keep saying a battlepass does not. So we are going to keep going in circles because you are refusing to listen and trying to argue something we are not talking about. You do not need to do dailies or weeklies to get XP and finish it (you can play the game as you always have). If you are trying to min max and finish it extremely fast than that is on you and doesn't even mean it will really finish extremely fast.

I already addressed this in a previous post, so reiterating it would be pointless, cause it was obviously ignored.

I also use Fortnite as an example because Dygz brings it up constantly as one. Dygz said that modern BPs don't have dailies/weeklies/whateverlies, but they not only apparently do, but are also beneficial (and optimal) to complete, cause they give a ton of xp.

I also literally said, I don't know how much XP the milestones do (the "do whatever and get xp" tasks that you both keep bringing up), so if Dygz can give an example of how much XP he gets from them per daily session of doing his own thing - that'd be great.

And if you have a visual/written examples of the BPs you mention - you're free and welcomed to provide them.

I'm not really going to counter out how you feel as that is kind of a pointless discussion since you are using immersion so that can be anything at that point. What im saying is your point holds 0 weight talking about needing to do them when you have been told you do not need to do dailies / weeklies (even though you are going to be doing them in the mmorpg regardless).

So now you are stuck on this fortnite battle pass and weekly thing like they give the most XP. Ignoring the fact a mmorpg and a battle royal are different with their needs of xp. Its pretty obvious a battle passes work different game to game in progression. But you are only looking for select point to fuel you trying to convince yourself you are right.

XP growth and progression are irrelevant to this disccusion because its about monetization. If you want to have one about battle pass and how it should be for AoC that is a different story. But you aren't using this as a disccusion as a echo chamber in your head to reinforcements you not liking them. How a battle pass works should be kept separate from the fact should a game have a battle pass, it is two different discussions.

Dygz wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

This guy has a more balanced view on the passes but said what I said at the end. We need to expect better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8wM-TVIqSA

Um. Why would you be expecting this one to be much better than the first one when it starts with -
"That was a great Battlepass... said no one EVER!" ????
That's not a balanced view - and... of course it's going to say what you said in the end.
Garbage in/Garbage out

10 minutes to watch a 20 minute video pretty amazing.
Thank you for agreeing with us. garbage in gets garbage out.

Mag7spy wrote: »

So now you are stuck on this fortnite battle pass and weekly thing like they give the most XP. Ignoring the fact a mmorpg and a battle royal are different with their needs of xp. Its pretty obvious a battle passes work different game to game in progression. But you are only looking for select point to fuel you trying to convince yourself you are right.

This is an argument against Dygz bringing up Fortnite as a good example of BPs, so I won't respond to that.

Mag7spy wrote: »

XP growth and progression are irrelevant to this disccusion because its about monetization. If you want to have one about battle pass and how it should be for AoC that is a different story. But you aren't using this as a disccusion as a echo chamber in your head to reinforcements you not liking them. How a battle pass works should be kept separate from the fact should a game have a battle pass, it is two different discussions.

I've been talking to both you and Dygz separately, addressing your points separately. But both of you keep fucking going into each other's lanes and saying that my arguments against the other person doesn't apply to your separate issues, when I specifically try to respond to both of you separately.

I already told you. I believe that a properly balanced direct sale of cosmetics would bring Intrepid more money and would also make them seem less corporate. If a premium BP has 10 cosmetics and costs $10 that means those cosmetics are valued at $1 each by Intrepid, so they should just sell them for $1 directly and be done with it. I'll gladly buy 5 that I want, instead of paying Intrepid for making me play the game for 100h just to get a single cosmetic at the end of the BP weeks after I've paid for it.

Dygz keeps bringing up an apples&oranges comparison of "APOC had a BP, so the mmo will most likely have one as well" and adds that previous cosmetics have already established a cost ladder for all the future cosmetics. But this would then go directly against the existence of any kind of BP that costs $10, but has more than two small cosmetics that would've previously costed $5 each.

In other words if Intrepid did implement a BP - they'd either put the SHITTIEST cosmetics in it, because their inherent cost is waaaay below any other directly sold one, or if they weren't the shittiest it would mean that all the previous cosmetics were overpriced as fuck, so Intrepid were almost scamming people out of their money.

Hell, iirc APOC BP cosmetics were supposedly meant to get transferred into the mmo, right? And I'd assume the BP had several cosmetics, while costing $10. Oh, I looked it up. It was 50 FUCKING COSMETICS, even for Beta2 pre-orderers, which means that Intrepid valued those at $1.5 per cosmetic.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ashes_of_Creation_Apocalypse_adventure_paths

In other words, they have already established the price point that I was talking about. This means that Intrepid could freely sell their cosmetics directly to the player at pretty much any cost, which would be a much better approach than making people wait for weeks just to get what they want.

XP growth and progression are irrelevant to this disccusion because its about monetization. If you want to have one about battle pass and how it should be for AoC that is a different story. But you aren't using this as a disccusion as a echo chamber in your head to reinforcements you not liking them. How a battle pass works should be kept separate from the fact should a game have a battle pass, it is two different discussions.[/quote]

Yes and no. How it works will have a direct effect on the game it's self.

The last video I linked the guy made the point that all the cool stuff used to be in the game and is now being moved outside the game for monetary gain. So we no longer have to complete challenges in game to get the stuff we just have to pull out our cards and dance a little dance to get them.

We used to as gamer's enjoy the challenges in the games and work to over come them and then got the reward for doing so. Now we have BP's.

I want the days back were we as a community pointed and laughed at those that bought the stuff rather then earned it.

All in all, I now believe even more that BP makes no sense in Ashes, after having seen that APOC cosmetics pricing.

Now I gotta go replay Hellblade 2, cause I want to get the full lore, even though I've already gotten all achievements, cause I'm that kind of player

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

So now you are stuck on this fortnite battle pass and weekly thing like they give the most XP. Ignoring the fact a mmorpg and a battle royal are different with their needs of xp. Its pretty obvious a battle passes work different game to game in progression. But you are only looking for select point to fuel you trying to convince yourself you are right.

This is an argument against Dygz bringing up Fortnite as a good example of BPs, so I won't respond to that.

Mag7spy wrote: »

XP growth and progression are irrelevant to this disccusion because its about monetization. If you want to have one about battle pass and how it should be for AoC that is a different story. But you aren't using this as a disccusion as a echo chamber in your head to reinforcements you not liking them. How a battle pass works should be kept separate from the fact should a game have a battle pass, it is two different discussions.

I've been talking to both you and Dygz separately, addressing your points separately. But both of you keep fucking going into each other's lanes and saying that my arguments against the other person doesn't apply to your separate issues, when I specifically try to respond to both of you separately.

I already told you. I believe that a properly balanced direct sale of cosmetics would bring Intrepid more money and would also make them seem less corporate. If a premium BP has 10 cosmetics and costs $10 that means those cosmetics are valued at $1 each by Intrepid, so they should just sell them for $1 directly and be done with it. I'll gladly buy 5 that I want, instead of paying Intrepid for making me play the game for 100h just to get a single cosmetic at the end of the BP weeks after I've paid for it.

Dygz keeps bringing up an apples&oranges comparison of "APOC had a BP, so the mmo will most likely have one as well" and adds that previous cosmetics have already established a cost ladder for all the future cosmetics. But this would then go directly against the existence of any kind of BP that costs $10, but has more than two small cosmetics that would've previously costed $5 each.

In other words if Intrepid did implement a BP - they'd either put the SHITTIEST cosmetics in it, because their inherent cost is waaaay below any other directly sold one, or if they weren't the shittiest it would mean that all the previous cosmetics were overpriced as fuck, so Intrepid were almost scamming people out of their money.

Hell, iirc APOC BP cosmetics were supposedly meant to get transferred into the mmo, right? And I'd assume the BP had several cosmetics, while costing $10. Oh, I looked it up. It was 50 FUCKING COSMETICS, even for Beta2 pre-orderers, which means that Intrepid valued those at $1.5 per cosmetic.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ashes_of_Creation_Apocalypse_adventure_paths

In other words, they have already established the price point that I was talking about. This means that Intrepid could freely sell their cosmetics directly to the player at pretty much any cost, which would be a much better approach than making people wait for weeks just to get what they want.

I'm fairly certain when he says example he isn't ignoring all other BP and saying it needs to be exactly like fortnite lmao.

The point is its a discount you don't get to buy them for 1$ each you get them all as you active play the game for the price set which makes the standard. Its not corporate you are making this term watered down over cheap cosmetics.

If there is a issue playing the mmorpg for 100 hours to get to the end, that isn't on the BP and the game not being fun itself. You can't be complaining you have to play the game too much and say its the BP fault you don't feel like playing anymore.

Disccusion of quality in a BP has nothing to do with should the game have a BP, that is again separate. If something is not worth buying no one will buy it (same with NW cosmetics as they were all bad)

It doesn't mean anything is overprice, it becomes the thing where the cost is lighting on the wallet and more about playing the game. You can view it as a seasonal discount. Else you need to use the same agreement if the store has something for 50% off and say they are fing over people cause now its on sale.

Effectively your argument is you don't want to buy what you don't want and want things at the cheapest value over them making you have a bp. At some point you need to realize this is a business to make money so they can support the game. You can't just have everything dirt cheap, your expectations should be what the market already does with the cost of cosmetics.

I wish i could go to a restaurant and just buy things cheap there, but that is not the reality.

bloodprophet wrote: »

[
10 minutes to watch a 20 minute video pretty amazing.
Thank you for agreeing with us. garbage in gets garbage out.

LMAO
I didn't say I was finished watching or writing my responses.

NiKr wrote: »

[
I already told you. I believe that a properly balanced direct sale of cosmetics would bring Intrepid more money and would also make them seem less corporate. If a premium BP has 10 cosmetics and costs $10 that means those cosmetics are valued at $1 each by Intrepid, so they should just sell them for $1 directly and be done with it. I'll gladly buy 5 that I want, instead of paying Intrepid for making me play the game for 100h just to get a single cosmetic at the end of the BP weeks after I've paid for it.

I gtta run to dance class, but again this claim is false.
Because the pricing for Cosmetics came from the Cash Shop years before the Battlepass existed.
The Battlepass is a discount for similar items already priced years earlier in the Cash Shop.
They didn't generate the pricing by looking at the Battlepass first.

Battlepasses don't "make you play the game".

Individuated Soul

Dygz wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

[
I already told you. I believe that a properly balanced direct sale of cosmetics would bring Intrepid more money and would also make them seem less corporate. If a premium BP has 10 cosmetics and costs $10 that means those cosmetics are valued at $1 each by Intrepid, so they should just sell them for $1 directly and be done with it. I'll gladly buy 5 that I want, instead of paying Intrepid for making me play the game for 100h just to get a single cosmetic at the end of the BP weeks after I've paid for it.

I gtta run to dance class, but again this claim is false.
Because the pricing for Cosmetics came from the Cash Shop years before the Battlepass existed.
The Battlepass is a discount for similar items already priced years earlier in the Cash Shop.
They didn't generate the pricing by looking at the Battlepass first.

Battlepasses don't "make you play the game".

I thought this was your dance class.