DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 30
They do not contradict each other.
You continue to play even after the Quests run out.
I do not continue to play after I've completed the Quests with a couple of different characters.
You would play a Seasonal DLC for 100+ hours with or without a Battlepass.
Without a Battlepass, I would play a Seasonal DLC for 40-60 hours and then wait for the next Season DLC I like. With a Battlepass, I would play a Seaonal DLC for 100 hours and then wait for the next Season DLC.
Without a Battlepass, I basically continue playing the Seasonal DLC until Quests stop giving me rewards, too.
I will play about twice from different character perspectives to see how that changes the story - and they might get some different Quest rewards. And, when I get to the end, I stop playing.
Same as with a Battlepass.
That shit is included in the game itself.
There are no forced gameplay hours.
BP gameplay hours aren't any more forced than gameplay hours are forced for Questing or Dungeons and Raids.
You continue to play even after the Quests run out.
And as I keep telling you, I rarely discuss things from just my own pov. Especially when discussions go further than a single post from me saying "I'd prefer it this way". And I'd say that 15 pages of discussions is faaaar beyond that single post.
This is also why I keep saying that clearing a BP in 100h is not as casual as you make it out to seem. You're a hardcore-time player, so of course it'd seem like casual times to you, but not everyone can keep playing the game daily w/o a fail, or have additional time to play it if they do miss a few days.
I'd most likely clear those 100h within my first week, so, once again, I'm not talking about myself here.
BP gameplay hours aren't any more forced than gameplay hours are forced for Questing or Dungeons and Raids.
You might not consider those additional hours to be chores, but, as you said yourself in this thread, if you had to prepare for a weekly raid - you'd consider that a chore, right?
So for a person who just wants to do quests, but also likes fashion, any additional hours, outside of quests, that are required to clear the BP will feel like chores for that person, just as raid prep would feel like a chore for you.
They will especially feel like a chore if the last cosmetic in the BP is the only cosmetic this person wanted, so literally all the gameplay before that will feel rewardless, if that last cosmetic is seen as the only desired reward out of that BP's season.
And all of this is simply made worse if the person pays for the BP's cosmetics, because they want a super cool one from the far-end of the BP.
You continue to play even after the Quests run out.
And as I keep telling you, I rarely discuss things from just my own pov. Especially when discussions go further than a single post from me saying "I'd prefer it this way". And I'd say that 15 pages of discussions is faaaar beyond that single post.
This is also why I keep saying that clearing a BP in 100h is not as casual as you make it out to seem. You're a hardcore-time player, so of course it'd seem like casual times to you, but not everyone can keep playing the game daily w/o a fail, or have additional time to play it if they do miss a few days.
I'd most likely clear those 100h within my first week, so, once again, I'm not talking about myself here.
BP gameplay hours aren't any more forced than gameplay hours are forced for Questing or Dungeons and Raids.
You might not consider those additional hours to be chores, but, as you said yourself in this thread, if you had to prepare for a weekly raid - you'd consider that a chore, right?
So for a person who just wants to do quests, but also likes fashion, any additional hours, outside of quests, that are required to clear the BP will feel like chores for that person, just as raid prep would feel like a chore for you.
They will especially feel like a chore if the last cosmetic in the BP is the only cosmetic this person wanted, so literally all the gameplay before that will feel regardless, if that last cosmetic is seen as the only desired reward out of that BP's season.
And all of this is simply made worse if the person pays for the BP's cosmetics, because they want a super cool one from the far-end of the BP.
Then at this point the argument against a BP is for casual players and you say you are arguing for them. Most most casuals players don't mind a battle pass, fact is they have a choice to buy it. And the market shows that it works since those players with a choice still buy it.
I don't see how you are arguing for them when they have a choice that fully empowers their decision. On top of having a market place to buy items and being able to earn things in game while playing. They will come up with their own decision or just spend extra money just cause.
Conclusion you are arguing for yourself. A casual player doesn't care what money you spend if it doesn't effect them.
I don't see how you are arguing for them when they have a choice that fully empowers their decision. On top of having a market place to buy items and being able to earn things in game while playing. They will come up with their own decision or just spend extra money just cause.
They don't have a choice. Like I said, is there a single game outside of Valve's stuff where cosmetics cost the same amount as BP's cosmetics cost?
If you can find a game with a BP and cosmetics priced at that value, and there's even a slight inclination in the game's profits having increased once the BP was implemented - I'll agree that casuals consciously choose BP instead of direct cosmetic purchases.
I don't see how you are arguing for them when they have a choice that fully empowers their decision. On top of having a market place to buy items and being able to earn things in game while playing. They will come up with their own decision or just spend extra money just cause.
They don't have a choice. Like I said, is there a single game outside of Valve's stuff where cosmetics cost the same amount as BP's cosmetics cost?
If you can find a game with a BP and cosmetics priced at that value, and there's even a slight inclination in the game's profits having increased once the BP was implemented - I'll agree that casuals consciously choose BP instead of direct cosmetic purchases.
Point of the BP is it offers a discount they do not need to be priced at a lower value that makes no sense. The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.
To even argue this irl you would have to say a store has to have all items on sale or none for people to buy. Which doesn't make any sense.
Point of the BP is it offers a discount they do not need to be priced at a lower value that makes no sense. The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.
To even argue this irl you would have to say a store has to have all items on sale or none for people to buy. Which doesn't make any sense.
If they're not the same as other cosmetics, then it's not a "sale". It's just a cheaper product.
If irl you had a store that sells you a thing you want for $5 and then a store that sells the same thing for $5, but also asks you to go through a very long maze and then asks you to run a marathon, just so you can get that thing - would you buy things from the first store or the second?
Because right now people only have the second store.
Point of the BP is it offers a discount they do not need to be priced at a lower value that makes no sense. The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.
To even argue this irl you would have to say a store has to have all items on sale or none for people to buy. Which doesn't make any sense.
If they're not the same as other cosmetics, then it's not a "sale". It's just a cheaper product.
If irl you had a store that sells you a thing you want for $5 and then a store that sells the same thing for $5, but also asks you to go through a very long maze and then asks you to run a marathon, just so you can get that thing - would you buy things from the first store or the second?
Because right now people only have the second store.
That is up tot he person to decide if the effort is worth it, during that long maze they might have fun along the way. Because they like something that they can grind. Also im guessing its a type but it would be one store sells for 10$ and the other store sells you a bundle of items for 5$ you just need to finish the maze.
People do not only have the second store that is not true. Where are you getting information suddenly people only have a second store? Ie can only spend their money on a battle pass.
People do not only have the second store that is not true. Where are you getting information suddenly people only have a second store? Ie can only spend their money on a battle pass.
The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.
This means that BP's cosmetic have only one source - the BP. Which means that there's only one store to purchase them at, which is the maze store.
So, as I said, right now people don't have a choice to get the same things for the same price but w/o the additional work.
People can run the maze all they want and enjoy it all they want as well, but I'd prefer if they had a choice of running that maze, rather than it being required if they want to buy a thing.
What if a person with money knows that they won't be able to play the game for a long time (for whatever reason), but they want the BP's cosmetics, cause their theming is exactly what the person wants. Right now they'd have no way to get those cosmetics. If there was a choice (though I'd prefer simply no choice, but in my direction ) - they'd simply buy the cosmetics and be on their merry way doing irl stuff, while also giving the game more money than they otherwise would've.
The BP goes directly against your argument of "Intrepid will get more money if they have the BP".
People do not only have the second store that is not true. Where are you getting information suddenly people only have a second store? Ie can only spend their money on a battle pass.
The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.
This means that BP's cosmetic have only one source - the BP. Which means that there's only one store to purchase them at, which is the maze store.
So, as I said, right now people don't have a chance to get the same things for the same price but w/o the additional work.
People can run the maze all they want and enjoy it all they want as well, but I'd prefer if they had a choice of running that maze, rather than it being required if they want to buy a thing.
What if a person with money knows that they won't be able to play the game for a long time (for whatever reason), but they want the BP's cosmetics, cause their theming is exactly what the person wants. Right now they'd have no way to get those cosmetics. If there was a choice (though I'd prefer simply no choice, but in my direction ) - they'd simply buy the cosmetics and be on their merry way doing irl stuff, while also giving the game more money than they otherwise would've.
The BP goes directly against your argument of "Intrepid will get more money if they have the BP".
You are fully misunderstanding what I'm saying because you want to view things in a way you are right. Im saying as an example that is not the case.
1. People can both buy form the store and buy and battle pass they work together
2. IS will make money as you see a lot of other games make money from it and the industry uses it as a standard. Though as it has a sub it wouldn't make as much money since there is less player base. But do to it being a discount people will more easily able to buy it a nd justify it over spending 20$ on one skin.
So no it doesn't go against my argument you say you are trying to see things from others, but as I said you are seeing things through how you want to, and adjusting the other views to it.
I've also went over this already they can do the wayfinder model where the BP is a loadable boardgame. This does not expire but you can only have one on at a time. So even if you didn't finish it or have multiple BP you aren't missing out on anything.
Though i have no issue with them expiring as well if their goal is to carrot on as tick casuals to feel more obligated to their own game. Over other games.
The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.
Do you mean that item A will cost $5 in the direct purchase store, while it's somewhere along the BP path, which costs $10?
Or do you mean that the direct store has item A, while BP only has item B?
If it's the former, it's simply a shitty practice whose entire goal is to abuse people. You either get more money from them or more gameplay metrics, even though your content might not sustain those metrics (as Dygz keeps exampling).
And if it's the latter - it's exactly how I said. BP has the cheap cosmetics and the store has more expensive, but different, ones. I want people to have a choice to buy the cheap shit directly, because there is no reason to not have that choice, unless you explicitly want to fool people into playing your game for longer than they might've wanted or than your content fully supports.
Why do you want to fool people instead of giving them a proper choice?
The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.
Do you mean that item A will cost $5 in the direct purchase store, while it's somewhere along the BP path, which costs $10?
Or do you mean that the direct store has item A, while BP only has item B?
If it's the former, it's simply a shitty practice whose entire goal is to abuse people. You either get more money from them or more gameplay metrics, even though your content might not sustain those metrics (as Dygz keeps exampling).
And if it's the latter - it's exactly how I said. BP has the cheap cosmetics and the store has more expensive, but different, ones. I want people to have a choice to buy the cheap shit directly, because there is no reason to not have that choice, unless you explicitly want to fool people into playing your game for longer than they might've wanted or than your content fully supports.
Why do you want to fool people instead of giving them a proper choice?
I clearly mean its like every other store that exist in the world.... Some items are full price, some are on sale, and there is also a BP you can buy, its not hard and nothing new.
BP is already a value buy that is balanced out by actually playing the game. You saying you want all the positives isn't really going to hold this is a business at the end of the day. This is why I say its a you issue, for a casual they will just work towards it and get it or not buy it. There is plenty of avenue for players to decide what they want to get, and there should be no expectation you are going to have everything on the market and be spending 1000$ of dollars on skins, that is not casual.
The reason is to have causal players playing the game, or just people in general that like having mini objectives to do, or extra BP levels to gain as they play the game and get their item (which pushes them to keep getting more). Which is a much better model than loot boxes, as this was made so you clearly know what you are getting over the rng gambling.
No one is being fooled its a choice and everyone knows the cost of things time / money/ other wise.
If its a loop people enjoy they are playing as long as they want to get the items they are going for. You can make the subjective argument people have played any game longer than the content supports. At the end of the day people will play what they have fun playing. If they stop having fun they move on and you don't get money from them.
With AoC aiming to be as dynamic as it is, I'm sure people will be fine. But any game comes a time where there is less new content. That doesn't mean you can't have a battlepass. And again AoC had plenty of choices, if they have a BP it is the best case scenario compared to any other game. You earn in game gear, market place and if it had a BP there is that option as well. Either way no one is missing out on gearing their characters look.
if they have a BP it is the best case scenario compared to any other game
And I want them to be even better than that and they totally can, w/ 0 loss to their revenue. If anything, I'm sure they'd make more money if they had super cheap cosmetics in the direct purchase store. And they'd stand out from all the other mmos as "the one that gives you exactly what you want at its exact price", while literally every other mmo is fucking people over in more than ten ways.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This is also why I keep saying that clearing a BP in 100h is not as casual as you make it out to seem. You're a hardcore-time player, so of course it'd seem like casual times to you, but not everyone can keep playing the game daily w/o a fail, or have additional time to play it if they do miss a few days.
And I keep telling you that 9 hours per week is casual.
Modern Battlepasses do not require people to log in daily or even weekly.
You can skip a whole month of playing and still finish the BP.
Especially with the Fortnite BP, because Weeklies are still available - even if you skip them - and it's possible to finish all those Weeklies in an hour or two.
I'd most likely clear those 100h within my first week, so, once again, I'm not talking about myself here.
And, here, I was talking about people like you (and Azherae) who would continue to play even after the story and Quests are done. Including gamers who like to Raid for BiS gear.
Gamers who are going to play 100+ hours anyway.
You might not consider those additional hours to be chores, but, as you said yourself in this thread, if you had to prepare for a weekly raid - you'd consider that a chore, right?
A chore is something that you repeatedly do every day - typically without missing a day.
I would call Raids a tedious ordeal - and I'm not interested enough in combat or BiS Gear enough to be motivated to prep for it.
Again, here, I don't know what you mean by "additional hours".
It probably takes 100+ hours to get a full set of BiS gear for a Raid.
I'm just playing the Battlepass instead of Raiding.
But, the people who Raid would also make it to the end of the Battlepass by doing stuff they like to do - Dungeons and Raids are Tasks on a Battlepass.
So for a person who just wants to do quests, but also likes fashion, any additional hours, outside of quests, that are required to clear the BP will feel like chores for that person, just as raid prep would feel like a chore for you.
That makes no sense whatsoever. Battlepass Tasks are mini-Quests.
Battlepass Tasks include every category of activity possible in the game - including Quests and Bulletin Board Tasks - if there are still Quests available in the game.
The difference, there, is that new Quests with new rewards will run out before a Battlepass will.
They will especially feel like a chore if the last cosmetic in the BP is the only cosmetic this person wanted, so literally all the gameplay before that will feel rewardless, if that last cosmetic is seen as the only desired reward out of that BP's season.
This is you just making stuff up, but...
That is highly unlikely because all the Cosmetics on a Battlepass are going to have the same theme.
Even so. The Tasks on a Battlepass include everything any player likes to do in the game.
So, you just do the stuff you like to do. Also, some of the rewards on a Battlepass are going to include Embers or whatever Coins there are to purchase from the Store, so... people are not going to only want the final Cosmetic.
Indeed, with the WoW Battlepass - you just earn Coins to purchase what you want from the Season Pass Store - and you can check-mark items to purchase them on a later BP after the current one ends. If you think you won't earn enough to get them with the current BP.
Sure, you can make shit up to support your notion that BPs have to suck.
if they have a BP it is the best case scenario compared to any other game
And I want them to be even better than that and they totally can, w/ 0 loss to their revenue. If anything, I'm sure they'd make more money if they had super cheap cosmetics in the direct purchase store. And they'd stand out from all the other mmos as "the one that gives you exactly what you want at its exact price", while literally every other mmo is fucking people over in more than ten ways.
So you just want everything to be dirt cheap that is not going to be the case. Them being better doesn't mean you can buy skins for 1 dollar you are just pushing Next it will be everything should be free so they are better lol.. Granted we don't know what they are doing exactly but it will be fine based on what I've seen and heard so far and they are already better than the market imo.
The difference, there, is that new Quests with new rewards will run out before a Battlepass will.
So, you just do the stuff you like to do.
I have literally just said "the person likes to do quests" and you say "quests run out before BP does", so this person can't "do what they like" anymore, if they want to finish the BP.
And you keep saying that seasonal content ends dozens of hours before the BP's average completion time does, so what exactly is this person supposed to do for those dozens of hours? Stuff they don't like to do? Because that's the definition of "a chore" (again, second one)
How can a person keep doing their preferred gameplay to finish the BP, if that gameplay runs out before the BP finishes? And by "quests" I mean even just "npc told me to go kill 20 boars, cause he wants to make a leather coat for his daughter". BP doesn't give tasks in that way. It just tells you to kill 20 boars (that is, it simply rewards you for doing that).
This is what I mean when I say BPs are immersion-breaking. They have no connection to your effect on the game's world (outside the activity itself).
So you just want everything to be dirt cheap that is not going to be the case. Them being better doesn't mean you can buy skins for 1 dollar you are just pushing Next it will be everything should be free so they are better lol.. Granted we don't know what they are doing exactly but it will be fine based on what I've seen and heard so far and they are already better than the market imo.
Mag, I see your likes on Dygz' comments, so I assume that you've read my other posts.
I've stated several damn times, I want the direct purchase store to have both high cost cosmetics and super cheap ones. Those super cheap cosmetics are literally the same thing as getting them from a paid BP, except you don't need to grind the game for 40 fucking hours more than you had planned to.
There will inevitably be difference between BP cosmetics and the direct purchase ones, because that's what the price dictates. I simply want the option to buy the BP shit directly, instead of it being gated behind playing the game.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
People will play through the new content more quickly than they can finish a Battlepass.
Which is fine, because that's the content Intrepid released.
There will still be a ton of pvpers and pvxers who don't leave simply because the story part ended, so it's not like everyone will stop playing, so subs will still support the game's development.
And as I gave examples before, there are ways to help others play the game for longer w/o having a BP.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So you just want everything to be dirt cheap that is not going to be the case. Them being better doesn't mean you can buy skins for 1 dollar you are just pushing Next it will be everything should be free so they are better lol.. Granted we don't know what they are doing exactly but it will be fine based on what I've seen and heard so far and they are already better than the market imo.
There will inevitably be difference between BP cosmetics and the direct purchase ones, because that's what the price dictates. I simply want the option to buy the BP shit directly, instead of it being gated behind playing the game.
The difference is do you want to pay full price and get the item(s) immediately or do you want to earn the item(s) in-game by playing for a bunch of hours and get them for free or at an extremely discounted price?
Of course, both ways there will be some form of delay when it comes to accessibility because what’s offered in the BP probably will not appear in the shop at full price for many months or many years.
Also, not likely to have Shop items discounted on the BP for many months or years.
The difference is do you want to pay full price and get the item(s) immediately
I expect the direct purchase cosmetics to be available to me as soon as I press "buy" in the store. Obviously they'll require whichever in-game item I can put them on, but that doesn't concern me, because I wasn't purchasing the item, I was buying the cosmetic.
When I purchased the pre-order bundle, it came with a cosmetic. I expect that cosmetic to be available to me as soon as the game releases, not after 100h of playing it.
And I expect direct purchase store to work the same way. And I want players to have an option to buy BP's cosmetics in the direct purchase stores, because those cosmetics are not discounted, they're simply a cheaper product.
So you just want everything to be dirt cheap that is not going to be the case. Them being better doesn't mean you can buy skins for 1 dollar you are just pushing Next it will be everything should be free so they are better lol.. Granted we don't know what they are doing exactly but it will be fine based on what I've seen and heard so far and they are already better than the market imo.
Mag, I see your likes on Dygz' comments, so I assume that you've read my other posts.
I've stated several damn times, I want the direct purchase store to have both high cost cosmetics and super cheap ones. Those super cheap cosmetics are literally the same thing as getting them from a paid BP, except you don't need to grind the game for 40 fucking hours more than you had planned to.
There will inevitably be difference between BP cosmetics and the direct purchase ones, because that's what the price dictates. I simply want the option to buy the BP shit directly, instead of it being gated behind playing the game.
Actually you do that is the cost of the item. You will have things to buy on the market and sometimes they will be on sale. On top of a battle pass if they choose to add it in.
If you don't want to play the game or think you aren't going to casually be playing the game to be able to earn it, don't play.
You really really ignoring dygz point about the causal level he expects the battle pass to be (if you are doing weekly and daily task) To make it very minimum level task. Meaning if you play 3 times a week you will be able to finish the BP if you play 3 hours a day or less.
Also you aren't grinding the game doing battlepass i really feel you don't understand how easy it is. If you have a task to craft any item and you make any item pretty easy 0 grinding required.
At the end of the day if playing the game is too much for someone (which seems to be the argument you are making) don't buy the battle pass and don't play the game lmao. If you don't want to go to a area, craft a item, kill mobs, do a board quest, or just play the game however you want and get general xp for the battle pass from that. Seriously just don't play the game, like when you are are the point where you can finish a battlepass by playing he game however you want and getting xp from everything and say you don't want to do that. That means you just don't want to play the game. So don't play it.
Aoc will have lots gated behind playing the game which also includes being able to even use the cosmetics you buy. Its not exactly a strong argument. So now we are going backwards from before about needing to earn it in game and just wanting handouts in a sense.
Edit* What also makes 0 sense which contradicts yourself is you say you want to be able to earn it in game by playing. But at the same time you are saying you don't want to need to play or "grind" (which u do not really grind in a battlepass like that) to get the item.
Even ignoring the fact you say earn in game (so want the item to be free now?) and have some convoluted quest system doing a bunch of bs to get the item. Over just leveling a battle pass (which is brain dead easy) and getting the item. Both require you to play the game...
Add actual game content that provides the same results.
It's why it's an mmorpg.
Battlepass is for surface skimming games. Imho.
People will play through the new content more quickly than they can finish a Battlepass.
Not if they make all the battlepass stuff as rewards from in-game content. Instead.
Im okay with it -- its like getting quests/chores from your email or phone app.
But its really poor content design for an MMORPG. Which has a persistent world to utilize.
The BP format is horrible, not the "dos" and "rewards".
At the end of the day if playing the game is too much for someone don't buy the battle pass and don't play the game lmao.
So your entire argument so far has been "BPs make Intrepid more money", but now you're telling a person who's willing to upkeep the sub and purchase cosmetics to "not play the game". You're literally ok with denying Intrepid money, just so you can keep saying that BPs are worth it, even though there's a much better way to make that money.
Edit* What also makes 0 sense which contradicts yourself is you say you want to be able to earn it in game by playing. But at the same time you are saying you don't want to need to play or "grind" (which u do not really grind in a battlepass like that) to get the item.
In-game achievables are paid for by the sub. Purchasable items should be given to the player immediately and directly, because that's what they're paying the extra money for.
And as you literally said before yourself, cosmetics will still require that person to play the game, because they'll need the item to apply the cosmetic to, so gameplay doesn't go away anywhere.
I simply want people to have a second option of purchasing the cheap BP cosmetics.
At the end of the day if playing the game is too much for someone don't buy the battle pass and don't play the game lmao.
So your entire argument so far has been "BPs make Intrepid more money", but now you're telling a person who's willing to upkeep the sub and purchase cosmetics to "not play the game". You're literally ok with denying Intrepid money, just so you can keep saying that BPs are worth it, even though there's a much better way to make that money.
Edit* What also makes 0 sense which contradicts yourself is you say you want to be able to earn it in game by playing. But at the same time you are saying you don't want to need to play or "grind" (which u do not really grind in a battlepass like that) to get the item.
In-game achievables are paid for by the sub. Purchasable items should be given to the player immediately and directly, because that's what they're paying the extra money for.
And as you literally said before yourself, cosmetics will still require that person to play the game, because they'll need the item to apply the cosmetic to, so gameplay doesn't go away anywhere.
I simply want people to have a second option of purchasing the cheap BP cosmetics.
100h is casual time for that length of period. You also don't need to play every day as you can do previous weekly task faster if you wait till alter on, and do them all at once. You can miss some days or play more some other days as well. Playing the game every few days or for a hour or 2 at a time is casuals. Trying to suggest other wise is your own basis as if trying to suggest casual play is suddenly bi weekly now.
You are trying to skew my argument again to change the direction to fit your narrative. If your argument boils down to someone doesn't want to play the game, so I simply say don't play the game.. I honestly think that argument is dog crap btw, but what you want to argue is on you. To make things extra clear i made the statement you can play the game however you want without worrying about task and finish the battle pass. You complained saying they had to play the game and/or viewing playing the game as grinding..
There are multiple ways to make money i expect them to do plenty of avenues for different types of players. People that enjoy battle asses and people that don't. Your argument is you want the benefits of the BP sale without any of the effort or a weird quest type of thing (which contradicts some points you have been saying on grinding, etc on top of being free?)
If you want BP cosmetics you do the battle pass, if you do not you buy items on the market, or items on sale on the market. You don't get to get the BP items for cheap just cause. Get the battle pass and play the game, casual players aren't going to have a issue with that. We have already went over that this is more a personal issue for you.
Based on how you will play AoC this isn't a issue for you since you will play above casual and consistently. Making it easy for you to get everything if you so choose to buy a BP. That or you just need to view it as a honor system for the game where you get a few free items for playing and can spend money and get a bit discount on some stuff once you have played it a certain amount during the season as a bonus bundle.
Add actual game content that provides the same results.
It's why it's an mmorpg.
Battlepass is for surface skimming games. Imho.
Then just make the point you don't want a market place to monetize you. And convince IS they only need a sub fee with no marketplace.
Not sure what you are saying. Or trying to get me to say.
I'll make it extra simple. You are suggest the not add things to the store and put it into the game as content. so that means you are suggesting they not put things on the store market and you just want it in game to earn.
Which your point should be you don't want anything to do with a store market in the game. Very easy discussion there than going around in circles.
If you want BP cosmetics you do the battle pass, if you do not you buy items on the market, or items on sale on the market. You don't get to get the BP items for cheap just cause. Get the battle pass and play the game, casual players aren't going to have a issue with that. We have already went over that this is more a personal issue for you.
Ok, you're fine with letting people being fucked over instead of having a better system got it
If you want BP cosmetics you do the battle pass, if you do not you buy items on the market, or items on sale on the market. You don't get to get the BP items for cheap just cause. Get the battle pass and play the game, casual players aren't going to have a issue with that. We have already went over that this is more a personal issue for you.
Ok, you're fine with letting people being fucked over instead of having a better system got it
At least we're clear now.
On to phase two, the fifteen pages of if the other system is actually 'better' or 'possible'.
Comments
You continue to play even after the Quests run out.
I do not continue to play after I've completed the Quests with a couple of different characters.
You would play a Seasonal DLC for 100+ hours with or without a Battlepass.
Without a Battlepass, I would play a Seasonal DLC for 40-60 hours and then wait for the next Season DLC I like. With a Battlepass, I would play a Seaonal DLC for 100 hours and then wait for the next Season DLC.
Without a Battlepass, I basically continue playing the Seasonal DLC until Quests stop giving me rewards, too.
I will play about twice from different character perspectives to see how that changes the story - and they might get some different Quest rewards. And, when I get to the end, I stop playing.
Same as with a Battlepass.
That shit is included in the game itself.
There are no forced gameplay hours.
BP gameplay hours aren't any more forced than gameplay hours are forced for Questing or Dungeons and Raids.
This is also why I keep saying that clearing a BP in 100h is not as casual as you make it out to seem. You're a hardcore-time player, so of course it'd seem like casual times to you, but not everyone can keep playing the game daily w/o a fail, or have additional time to play it if they do miss a few days.
I'd most likely clear those 100h within my first week, so, once again, I'm not talking about myself here.
You might not consider those additional hours to be chores, but, as you said yourself in this thread, if you had to prepare for a weekly raid - you'd consider that a chore, right?
So for a person who just wants to do quests, but also likes fashion, any additional hours, outside of quests, that are required to clear the BP will feel like chores for that person, just as raid prep would feel like a chore for you.
They will especially feel like a chore if the last cosmetic in the BP is the only cosmetic this person wanted, so literally all the gameplay before that will feel rewardless, if that last cosmetic is seen as the only desired reward out of that BP's season.
And all of this is simply made worse if the person pays for the BP's cosmetics, because they want a super cool one from the far-end of the BP.
Then at this point the argument against a BP is for casual players and you say you are arguing for them. Most most casuals players don't mind a battle pass, fact is they have a choice to buy it. And the market shows that it works since those players with a choice still buy it.
I don't see how you are arguing for them when they have a choice that fully empowers their decision. On top of having a market place to buy items and being able to earn things in game while playing. They will come up with their own decision or just spend extra money just cause.
Conclusion you are arguing for yourself. A casual player doesn't care what money you spend if it doesn't effect them.
If you can find a game with a BP and cosmetics priced at that value, and there's even a slight inclination in the game's profits having increased once the BP was implemented - I'll agree that casuals consciously choose BP instead of direct cosmetic purchases.
Point of the BP is it offers a discount they do not need to be priced at a lower value that makes no sense. The items you buy on the market are not the same ones as the BP during the current rotation.
To even argue this irl you would have to say a store has to have all items on sale or none for people to buy. Which doesn't make any sense.
If irl you had a store that sells you a thing you want for $5 and then a store that sells the same thing for $5, but also asks you to go through a very long maze and then asks you to run a marathon, just so you can get that thing - would you buy things from the first store or the second?
Because right now people only have the second store.
That is up tot he person to decide if the effort is worth it, during that long maze they might have fun along the way. Because they like something that they can grind. Also im guessing its a type but it would be one store sells for 10$ and the other store sells you a bundle of items for 5$ you just need to finish the maze.
People do not only have the second store that is not true. Where are you getting information suddenly people only have a second store? Ie can only spend their money on a battle pass.
This means that BP's cosmetic have only one source - the BP. Which means that there's only one store to purchase them at, which is the maze store.
So, as I said, right now people don't have a choice to get the same things for the same price but w/o the additional work.
People can run the maze all they want and enjoy it all they want as well, but I'd prefer if they had a choice of running that maze, rather than it being required if they want to buy a thing.
What if a person with money knows that they won't be able to play the game for a long time (for whatever reason), but they want the BP's cosmetics, cause their theming is exactly what the person wants. Right now they'd have no way to get those cosmetics. If there was a choice (though I'd prefer simply no choice, but in my direction
The BP goes directly against your argument of "Intrepid will get more money if they have the BP".
You are fully misunderstanding what I'm saying because you want to view things in a way you are right. Im saying as an example that is not the case.
1. People can both buy form the store and buy and battle pass they work together
2. IS will make money as you see a lot of other games make money from it and the industry uses it as a standard. Though as it has a sub it wouldn't make as much money since there is less player base. But do to it being a discount people will more easily able to buy it a nd justify it over spending 20$ on one skin.
So no it doesn't go against my argument you say you are trying to see things from others, but as I said you are seeing things through how you want to, and adjusting the other views to it.
I've also went over this already they can do the wayfinder model where the BP is a loadable boardgame. This does not expire but you can only have one on at a time. So even if you didn't finish it or have multiple BP you aren't missing out on anything.
Though i have no issue with them expiring as well if their goal is to carrot on as tick casuals to feel more obligated to their own game. Over other games.
Do you mean that item A will cost $5 in the direct purchase store, while it's somewhere along the BP path, which costs $10?
Or do you mean that the direct store has item A, while BP only has item B?
If it's the former, it's simply a shitty practice whose entire goal is to abuse people. You either get more money from them or more gameplay metrics, even though your content might not sustain those metrics (as Dygz keeps exampling).
And if it's the latter - it's exactly how I said. BP has the cheap cosmetics and the store has more expensive, but different, ones. I want people to have a choice to buy the cheap shit directly, because there is no reason to not have that choice, unless you explicitly want to fool people into playing your game for longer than they might've wanted or than your content fully supports.
Why do you want to fool people instead of giving them a proper choice?
I clearly mean its like every other store that exist in the world.... Some items are full price, some are on sale, and there is also a BP you can buy, its not hard and nothing new.
BP is already a value buy that is balanced out by actually playing the game. You saying you want all the positives isn't really going to hold this is a business at the end of the day. This is why I say its a you issue, for a casual they will just work towards it and get it or not buy it. There is plenty of avenue for players to decide what they want to get, and there should be no expectation you are going to have everything on the market and be spending 1000$ of dollars on skins, that is not casual.
The reason is to have causal players playing the game, or just people in general that like having mini objectives to do, or extra BP levels to gain as they play the game and get their item (which pushes them to keep getting more). Which is a much better model than loot boxes, as this was made so you clearly know what you are getting over the rng gambling.
No one is being fooled its a choice and everyone knows the cost of things time / money/ other wise.
If its a loop people enjoy they are playing as long as they want to get the items they are going for. You can make the subjective argument people have played any game longer than the content supports. At the end of the day people will play what they have fun playing. If they stop having fun they move on and you don't get money from them.
With AoC aiming to be as dynamic as it is, I'm sure people will be fine. But any game comes a time where there is less new content. That doesn't mean you can't have a battlepass. And again AoC had plenty of choices, if they have a BP it is the best case scenario compared to any other game. You earn in game gear, market place and if it had a BP there is that option as well. Either way no one is missing out on gearing their characters look.
Modern Battlepasses do not require people to log in daily or even weekly.
You can skip a whole month of playing and still finish the BP.
Especially with the Fortnite BP, because Weeklies are still available - even if you skip them - and it's possible to finish all those Weeklies in an hour or two.
100 hours in 3 months is Casual Time.
And, here, I was talking about people like you (and Azherae) who would continue to play even after the story and Quests are done. Including gamers who like to Raid for BiS gear.
Gamers who are going to play 100+ hours anyway.
A chore is something that you repeatedly do every day - typically without missing a day.
I would call Raids a tedious ordeal - and I'm not interested enough in combat or BiS Gear enough to be motivated to prep for it.
Again, here, I don't know what you mean by "additional hours".
It probably takes 100+ hours to get a full set of BiS gear for a Raid.
I'm just playing the Battlepass instead of Raiding.
But, the people who Raid would also make it to the end of the Battlepass by doing stuff they like to do - Dungeons and Raids are Tasks on a Battlepass.
That makes no sense whatsoever. Battlepass Tasks are mini-Quests.
Battlepass Tasks include every category of activity possible in the game - including Quests and Bulletin Board Tasks - if there are still Quests available in the game.
The difference, there, is that new Quests with new rewards will run out before a Battlepass will.
This is you just making stuff up, but...
That is highly unlikely because all the Cosmetics on a Battlepass are going to have the same theme.
Even so. The Tasks on a Battlepass include everything any player likes to do in the game.
So, you just do the stuff you like to do. Also, some of the rewards on a Battlepass are going to include Embers or whatever Coins there are to purchase from the Store, so... people are not going to only want the final Cosmetic.
Indeed, with the WoW Battlepass - you just earn Coins to purchase what you want from the Season Pass Store - and you can check-mark items to purchase them on a later BP after the current one ends. If you think you won't earn enough to get them with the current BP.
Sure, you can make shit up to support your notion that BPs have to suck.
That's not a thing.
It's just crap you make up in your head and then pretend it's real.
So you just want everything to be dirt cheap that is not going to be the case. Them being better doesn't mean you can buy skins for 1 dollar you are just pushing Next it will be everything should be free so they are better lol.. Granted we don't know what they are doing exactly but it will be fine based on what I've seen and heard so far and they are already better than the market imo.
It's why it's an mmorpg.
Battlepass is for surface skimming games. Imho.
And you keep saying that seasonal content ends dozens of hours before the BP's average completion time does, so what exactly is this person supposed to do for those dozens of hours? Stuff they don't like to do? Because that's the definition of "a chore" (again, second one)
How can a person keep doing their preferred gameplay to finish the BP, if that gameplay runs out before the BP finishes? And by "quests" I mean even just "npc told me to go kill 20 boars, cause he wants to make a leather coat for his daughter". BP doesn't give tasks in that way. It just tells you to kill 20 boars (that is, it simply rewards you for doing that).
This is what I mean when I say BPs are immersion-breaking. They have no connection to your effect on the game's world (outside the activity itself).
I've stated several damn times, I want the direct purchase store to have both high cost cosmetics and super cheap ones. Those super cheap cosmetics are literally the same thing as getting them from a paid BP, except you don't need to grind the game for 40 fucking hours more than you had planned to.
There will inevitably be difference between BP cosmetics and the direct purchase ones, because that's what the price dictates. I simply want the option to buy the BP shit directly, instead of it being gated behind playing the game.
There will still be a ton of pvpers and pvxers who don't leave simply because the story part ended, so it's not like everyone will stop playing, so subs will still support the game's development.
And as I gave examples before, there are ways to help others play the game for longer w/o having a BP.
Of course, both ways there will be some form of delay when it comes to accessibility because what’s offered in the BP probably will not appear in the shop at full price for many months or many years.
Also, not likely to have Shop items discounted on the BP for many months or years.
When I purchased the pre-order bundle, it came with a cosmetic. I expect that cosmetic to be available to me as soon as the game releases, not after 100h of playing it.
And I expect direct purchase store to work the same way. And I want players to have an option to buy BP's cosmetics in the direct purchase stores, because those cosmetics are not discounted, they're simply a cheaper product.
Then just make the point you don't want a market place to monetize you. And convince IS they only need a sub fee with no marketplace.
Actually you do that is the cost of the item. You will have things to buy on the market and sometimes they will be on sale. On top of a battle pass if they choose to add it in.
If you don't want to play the game or think you aren't going to casually be playing the game to be able to earn it, don't play.
You really really ignoring dygz point about the causal level he expects the battle pass to be (if you are doing weekly and daily task) To make it very minimum level task. Meaning if you play 3 times a week you will be able to finish the BP if you play 3 hours a day or less.
Also you aren't grinding the game doing battlepass i really feel you don't understand how easy it is. If you have a task to craft any item and you make any item pretty easy 0 grinding required.
At the end of the day if playing the game is too much for someone (which seems to be the argument you are making) don't buy the battle pass and don't play the game lmao. If you don't want to go to a area, craft a item, kill mobs, do a board quest, or just play the game however you want and get general xp for the battle pass from that. Seriously just don't play the game, like when you are are the point where you can finish a battlepass by playing he game however you want and getting xp from everything and say you don't want to do that. That means you just don't want to play the game. So don't play it.
Aoc will have lots gated behind playing the game which also includes being able to even use the cosmetics you buy. Its not exactly a strong argument. So now we are going backwards from before about needing to earn it in game and just wanting handouts in a sense.
Edit* What also makes 0 sense which contradicts yourself is you say you want to be able to earn it in game by playing. But at the same time you are saying you don't want to need to play or "grind" (which u do not really grind in a battlepass like that) to get the item.
Even ignoring the fact you say earn in game (so want the item to be free now?) and have some convoluted quest system doing a bunch of bs to get the item. Over just leveling a battle pass (which is brain dead easy) and getting the item. Both require you to play the game...
Not if they make all the battlepass stuff as rewards from in-game content. Instead.
Im okay with it -- its like getting quests/chores from your email or phone app.
But its really poor content design for an MMORPG. Which has a persistent world to utilize.
The BP format is horrible, not the "dos" and "rewards".
And I already said, the 100h in 3 months is only casual if the person can play every day, which for quite a lot of people is not casual enough.
So your entire argument so far has been "BPs make Intrepid more money", but now you're telling a person who's willing to upkeep the sub and purchase cosmetics to "not play the game". You're literally ok with denying Intrepid money, just so you can keep saying that BPs are worth it, even though there's a much better way to make that money.
In-game achievables are paid for by the sub. Purchasable items should be given to the player immediately and directly, because that's what they're paying the extra money for.
And as you literally said before yourself, cosmetics will still require that person to play the game, because they'll need the item to apply the cosmetic to, so gameplay doesn't go away anywhere.
I simply want people to have a second option of purchasing the cheap BP cosmetics.
Not sure what you are saying. Or trying to get me to say.
100h is casual time for that length of period. You also don't need to play every day as you can do previous weekly task faster if you wait till alter on, and do them all at once. You can miss some days or play more some other days as well. Playing the game every few days or for a hour or 2 at a time is casuals. Trying to suggest other wise is your own basis as if trying to suggest casual play is suddenly bi weekly now.
You are trying to skew my argument again to change the direction to fit your narrative. If your argument boils down to someone doesn't want to play the game, so I simply say don't play the game.. I honestly think that argument is dog crap btw, but what you want to argue is on you. To make things extra clear i made the statement you can play the game however you want without worrying about task and finish the battle pass. You complained saying they had to play the game and/or viewing playing the game as grinding..
There are multiple ways to make money i expect them to do plenty of avenues for different types of players. People that enjoy battle asses and people that don't. Your argument is you want the benefits of the BP sale without any of the effort or a weird quest type of thing (which contradicts some points you have been saying on grinding, etc on top of being free?)
If you want BP cosmetics you do the battle pass, if you do not you buy items on the market, or items on sale on the market. You don't get to get the BP items for cheap just cause. Get the battle pass and play the game, casual players aren't going to have a issue with that. We have already went over that this is more a personal issue for you.
Based on how you will play AoC this isn't a issue for you since you will play above casual and consistently. Making it easy for you to get everything if you so choose to buy a BP. That or you just need to view it as a honor system for the game where you get a few free items for playing and can spend money and get a bit discount on some stuff once you have played it a certain amount during the season as a bonus bundle.
I'll make it extra simple. You are suggest the not add things to the store and put it into the game as content. so that means you are suggesting they not put things on the store market and you just want it in game to earn.
Which your point should be you don't want anything to do with a store market in the game. Very easy discussion there than going around in circles.
At least we're clear now.
On to phase two, the fifteen pages of if the other system is actually 'better' or 'possible'.
Aiming for a 30 page TTK.