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Dev Discussion #65 - Camera Perspective

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    GrappLrGrappLr Member, Alpha One
    Clonage wrote: »
    I prefer having the option to customize the camera depending on the type of content i'm doing. Not just zoom in/out but also camera altitude and off-setting to the sides for action combat. Having these options would also help with taking fancy screenshots :)

    I think one has to be especially careful though when designing this. I'm all for adding any kinds of "options", as long as they don't give significant advantages over the default (default being more visually attractive). When you allow options that make the game worse, but also give advantages to combat, people feel forced to use the less attractive way in order to be competitive.

    You never want to design your game in a way where you "force" your gamers to play in the less fun way.
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    There's only one answer.
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    Maybe a zoom relative to the mount you're riding or abilities to get a better perspective. Summon a few birds that you can send out in a straight line and switch perspective. Possibly cross this with animal husbandry so your have a reason to be reasonable about scouting dangerous areas with creatures you put effort into raising.
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    AszkalonAszkalon Member
    hleV wrote: »
    I will always be zoomed out as far as possible for maximum awareness, however I would like a sane limit to how much you can zoom out, so you can still see and admire your character without compromising awareness.

    We think similar. I too would also have a good bit of Distance i can zoom out to - in Order to have the best Awareness for my Character and what happens around it.
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    ciarennciarenn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I like the option to have different camera perspectives, as a whole I like a very wide/far field of view but being able to zoom in closer is always helpful in certain things when gaming!
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    FalleniFalleni Member
    In general I like way WoW handles camera all though I don't have many that I can compare it to. Camera logged to character with free zoom with limits ofc and rotational control. Ability to keep it in place instead of automatically getting moved behind me.
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    DolyemDolyem Member
    Mostly zoomed out max distance to see any ambushes from other players
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    arkileoarkileo Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    edited July 2
    Min-maxers would zoom their camera out to the cloud floor if they could, or the thermosphere if it was a clear day, it's the most optimal option. But while it's natural to seek out the most perfect option for anything, it also makes things boring. Part of the fun is the danger of imperfect information, not knowing what's over the hill because the camera doesn't zoom out that far. A closer zoom will also make the player feel more attached to their character. As such I don't think the camera zoom max should be beyond what the developers feel is immersive.

    This video (timestamped), which contains a lot of cautionary tales for MMO development, mentions an incident where WoW players figured out how to zoom their camera out extremely far using console commands. Blizzard patched it, and created a big controversy because more zoom out is more optimal and apparently that's the most important decision factor that people make. My point is that if you guys even temporarily having the camera allowed to zoom out to RTS levels, there will be an uproar if you later force it to be more zoomed in. I say find a reasonable, immersive zoom range and stick with it for every player.

    As for angle, I think WoW and GW2 both have good default angles.
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    CCC_HANCCC_HAN Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2
    It definitely depends on the game/zoom out range and the camera angle, but overall:

    Tab target:
    Large scale PvP: 3/4 - maximum zoomed out.
    Arena PvP: Mid - 3/4 to see enemy abilities better.
    PvE raids: 3/4 - Maximum zoomed out.

    Regarding the camera angle, it would be nice if it were height-adjustable for your personal needs/preferences.
    GW2 has good camera settings.


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    GothGhostGothGhost Member
    Zoom out almost all the time. In some cases I do zoom in.
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    SolmyrSolmyr Member
    edited July 2
    Action combat feels best with closer camera angles. Tab combat is better served with an RTS camera.

    I tend to prefer zooming in, but it's literally not an option for anything even remotely risky or competitive, which covers pretty much every activity in Ashes. If you allow players to have superhuman situational awareness, they'll take it every time and complain if it's removed.
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    TexasTexas Member
    I am someone who must play with max zoom out, so need a limit to zoom out. The older MMOs tend to have better cameras - higher and further than hack'n'slash.
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    lunarskylunarsky Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    If I am doing solo content like going around and gathering or general exploration a bit more zoomed in. In any kind of group content I'll max zoom out. As a healer I need to see all my people and know what's coming or happening.
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    TexasTexas Member
    In additon to 1st and 3rd person camera modes, we should have a 2nd person camera mode.
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    I think the camera should be fully customizable.
    Like with horizontal, vertical and distance cap settings. ^^

    (Like TESO or BDO)
    - Founder, General
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    GrappLr wrote: »
    Clonage wrote: »
    I prefer having the option to customize the camera depending on the type of content i'm doing. Not just zoom in/out but also camera altitude and off-setting to the sides for action combat. Having these options would also help with taking fancy screenshots :)

    I think one has to be especially careful though when designing this. I'm all for adding any kinds of "options", as long as they don't give significant advantages over the default (default being more visually attractive). When you allow options that make the game worse, but also give advantages to combat, people feel forced to use the less attractive way in order to be competitive.

    You never want to design your game in a way where you "force" your gamers to play in the less fun way.

    I don't get what kind of advantages you can get with the full control of your camera setting.

    If you set a POV of 120 than this is the cap, you cant go any further, same for horizontal or vertical option how can a shoulder camera give advantage and be more competitive than a head up camera... The pov is always 120.
    - Founder, General
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    I personally prefer a more close camera perspective as its more immersive. Sometimes when trying a further view I feel I lose where I am at. I do think there are pros and cons for both. Giving the ability to swap on the fly and customize your perspective would be best overall. Give players the freedom.
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    MagtaiusMagtaius Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Personally I would prefer a dynamic camera that can be zoomed in and out at will with an option to do a camera lock to prevent accident zoom in/out. In addition I would prefer the camera to be centered on the center of mass rather than over the shoulder view.
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    tygorotygoro Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter
    when in doubt, copy. it's simple. scrollable to a certain distance, different for views like flight paths, changeable to max at all times with a command.
    /script SetCVar("cameraDistanceMax",30)
    
    console cameraDistanceMaxZoomFactor 2.6
    

    or whatever. bad enough we already can't have addons
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    SlothirSlothir Member
    I would love to choose: Left , Above or Right side of my character. And have the ability to zoom all the way in to "first person" (camera would be placed eye height of my character). Just like in WoW.
    Zooming out also for massive battles is a boon in my book.
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    Looks like by popular opinion based on all of these responses, the type of content I'm participating in depends on how I utilize my camera perspective. If I want fun and cool looking screenshots, I'll zoom in a lot and take sometimes really close perspective shots. Or if I'm doing something with a large group or tactical, I will zoom out and use my camera in that manner. 🙌🙌🙌
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    AstroliteAstrolite Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Pretty simple answer is Customizable zoom and camera. Enable moving camera up down left right when looking forward. Max zoom of 30 meters? Vehicles should scale like archeage.
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    DizzRaDizzRa Member
    Zoomed out no camera shake is my go-to when playing a MMORPG. :)
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    I'm constantly zooming in and out, even mid gameplay. My mates hang shit on me because I don't bind scroll wheel to something else but, how can I when I'm constantly doing the zoomies? Max camera distance is great for awareness and scenic shots but I also like to be up close and personal when I'm smacking someone in the face.

    I don't like when the PoV is offset though. directly behind my character is the best for MMO's imo.
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    mambaaishmambaaish Member
    As a tank, I keep my camera mostly zoomed out for overview and for adaptation in the situation (like raid, dungeons, pvp etc). Sometimes I change the camera perspective closer, but thats mostly for immersion. Personally I think the camera perspective should hang behind the player and have a wide FOV.

    Having a camera perspective that allows a good distance & width provides players with different situational options and different experiences whether one is competing or just casually exploring!
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    ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    If you want to know how to do UI and Camera settings and all that quality of life stuff just look at FFXIV, not a big fan of the game. put thousands of hours into it and gave up but if there's anything in that game that reigns supreme over everything else it's QoL on the UI/Camera/Macro stuff
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    DizzDizz Member
    About camera distance I don’t like camera distance can be zoom out extremely far away.

    It breaks the immersion and also kind of reduce the difference and impact that come from visual ability(or say how much information should that class able to read from monitor) between melee and range classes.

    To me the visual ability limitations are also a part of fun in games. For example if you can zoom out very far away in Monster Hunter series game will the great sword true charge slash still feels that great and impactful?
    A casual follower from TW.
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    ClonageClonage Member
    edited July 3
    GrappLr wrote: »
    Clonage wrote: »
    I prefer having the option to customize the camera depending on the type of content i'm doing. Not just zoom in/out but also camera altitude and off-setting to the sides for action combat. Having these options would also help with taking fancy screenshots :)

    I think one has to be especially careful though when designing this. I'm all for adding any kinds of "options", as long as they don't give significant advantages over the default (default being more visually attractive). When you allow options that make the game worse, but also give advantages to combat, people feel forced to use the less attractive way in order to be competitive.

    You never want to design your game in a way where you "force" your gamers to play in the less fun way.

    I don't disagree with having limits for these options. I also don't want to see wacky stuff. But there's also the argument of the opposite side. Why "force" the competitive gameplay to be limited because of the preference of some that don't want to feel "forced" into using settings?
    I understand where you're coming from but If a player doesn't want to adapt for the sake of being competitive, is he really trying to be competitive?
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    VoeltzVoeltz Member
    There has to be a limit on zooming out. As others have said, playing on max zoom becomes the standard because of the advantages it gives you which should really be reserved for flying mounts or higher vantage points like a hill or castle wall. I prefer to play on a zoom level closer to the middle because I feel it helps me more as a melee main for positioning, reading ability queues and is flat out more enjoyable. I like to see my character and others, I want to feel like I'm in the fight, not observing from a satellite in outer space like a strategy game or a hovering drone.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I believe that if Ashes intends to stick to the concept of having the Action Camera be a reasonable choice to use, it must change the way players are incentivized to use their camera, or design its combat from a different baseline.

    The explanation for what I think would need to be different about the baseline is full of assumptions and phenomenally long. But the overall tl;dr would be that right now, information appears to be more important than adaptation, and therefore a huge camera angle has priority over all other concerns even if CC is Action targeted

    So, for my group, the camera options/restrictions are still entirely tied really directly to the game style. The current game style shown/implied seems to fit with the huge zoom out overhead RTS style view, it just isn't necessarily what was originally aspired to. Which is fine, as it was always said that we'd fall back to Tab Target if things didn't work out.

    If that's the case, then I don't think anyone I speak for has any issue with it other than aesthetics. It might make the game less appealing to play for the combat experience long term, but that was low on our reasons for playing Ashes already, and retaining the large zoom won't bring it down any.

    SunScript would be annoyed if the zoom was limited while keeping the current gameplay style, even though he actually hates the max zoom for immersion, and JustVine has a similar feeling where it's jarring to try to enjoy a world like this moreso because the Art team does not seem to be designing areas around this 'RTS camera style' yet it will invariably be the correct camera setting for Summoners.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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