I'm usually zoomed waaayyy out for combat/exploration, angled down 20-30 degrees (enough that the horizon isn't on screen), so I can see as much of the battlefield/surroundings as possible.
And then I'll zoom in and put the camera to the left/right to talk to NPCs, or over-the-shoulder to do other town-stuff. And sometimes I'm forced to zoom in inside cramped towns, where zooming out would cause the camera to bump into buildings/walls/banners everywhere.
The question was asked in our community and the overwhelming majority preferred a decently well zoomed out camera, centered on the character. This zoom should not be as ridiculous as an RTS game POV however. However that does not mean there's no value in being zoomed a bit more and looking over the shoulder of your character. Especially for a archer using a action combat system to aim and fire for example.
I like a flexible camera that I can adapt to the situation. For combat I prefer an isometric view for more information and to better judge distances and angles between characters, except for when I am manually aiming with the reticle in which case its much easier to do that with a first/third person view. For more immersive styles of gameplay I prefer a closer zoom. I think the dynamic camera is nice so I can adjust it to suit my needs on a moment to moment basis, it might also be nice to maybe have some presets or something to quickly jump to specific camera angles/zooms rather than fiddling with it during an intense situation (kind of like how in Armored Core 6 you can unlock the ability to click the analog stick to automatically rotate the camera and your character 180 degrees from where you are currently looking to make kiting more practical and to set up for some cool movement combos like flying above someone then quickly rotating the camera downwards to strike from above). I also think that depending on the intended type of gameplay sometimes it might be appropriate lock the camera perspective in a fixed position in order to deliver a specific experience as well, such as during story moments/quest moments/mini-games, etc., but outside of that I think its best left up to player preferences.
I would love to see a toggleable option for more or less over the shoulder, perhaps even adding filters in the visual settings for top and bottom screen bars for a more cinematic feel
New to the community, Long a fan of dwarves. As for camera view, Close over the shoulder with a limited zoom in or out, but not so far out that you can really use this as a way to see over or around terrain. Whats the point of being able to sneak around if your foe is zoomed out like a bird and can see you moving around a mile away..
Camera Perspective: What camera perspective do you prefer in terms of both angle and distance from your character? Do different situations call for different perspectives?
I normally play over the shoulder and zoomed out. I want to see what is in front of me. I also want the option to zoom out quite far, I don't play that way constantly but I always want to ability to get a much larger picture. I don't play directly over the shoulder, I try to find a good balance between height and horizontal angle.
I would like to see really good sliders for camera height, camera zoom, zoom sensitivity and rotation sensitivity.
In regards to rotation sensitivity it feels like MMOs that have a slider for this often have an all or nothing feel despite the slider. The issue tends to be slowing the camera down. The sliders always seem able to speed it up to crazy unusable speeds but you don't have a good way to slow it down in an incremental way. I don't know why this is, I suppose it could be user error, but I always seem to run into that issue.
Max Zoom out, in "middle" position, in red.
The green line is the hit range of nuke or bow.
Orange is top position.
The wall is the castle wall.
1
ShadowVenMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I am a type of player that hates First Person View in games, and I love 3rd person view. I personally prefer very far zoom out if I Wanted, similarly to EQ camera zoom. Zooming out is very beneficial in large Raids for support and dps roles. When fighting the Elder dragon of Tundra, it would be very nice to see a large area around you for any AoE's or linear blindsight attacks. In Ashes where PvP will be focused heavily on Group pvp, I don't see how zooming out can be more advantageous to one player over another when there is group pvp. Max Zoom In/out please =^_^=
0
SolarisMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Honestly, I think being able to zoom all the way out in a PvP centric game is like cheating. I find it way more challenging as a player when the field of view is slim, as it would be if you were actually in a fight.
By allowing the player to zoom all the way out, therefore seeing their environment from a bird's eye view, they can see everything coming at them. To me this cheapens the experience. If I wanted to play a MOBA I'd play a MOBA.
TLDR: If I had the choice, I'd limit how far the player can zoom the camera out to make combat more challenging and realistic.
I pretty much agree with what most people said, here’s what is important to me:
Let users zoom out far, but not too far for it to become a performance issue or an unfair advantage in PvP (let the users zoom out a bit more in PvE maybe)
Left click moving the camera left and right SHOULD NOT move the character left and right (this allows for dynamic gameplay where the user can quickly take a look around while still moving in the same direction)
Right click moving the camera left and right SHOULD also change the direction the character is heading to
Make it possible to disable any mouse movement smoothing/acceleration through the menu
Have the slider for both horizontal and vertical sensitivity and also let the user enter decimal values for fine tuning
And for the love of the universe: do not hardcode any keybinds. Put in place default keybinds you think make the most sense but let users rebind every single action.
There are too many games out there completely disregarding disabled users who just cannot use WASD or those who for whatever reasons prefer to use ESDF or even more exotic combinations. This has zero impact on others but has tremendous impact on the overall enjoyability of the game.
I played most of EQ in first person mode which felt far more immersive. Other games forced the "over the shoulder view" which annoyed me.
Being able to zoom out and move camera around was useful primarily to deal with raid mechanics needing to move to certain spots to insure you were inside designated areas. Being able to move camera totally freely could be viewed as somewhat of a "cheat" when able to look around corners or observe the area around you while being in an area which prevented you from being observed. I had always considered broken the clipping oddities in some games that allow you to look through walls and such.
It would be funner & more realistic with a narrow field of view. However AOE effects may start large and likely get larger. I don't see how angled high view wont be necessary.
As someone who loves to scout I'd love a narrow field. The greater the risk the greater the bragging rights.
After reading the thread I have more thoughts - these are mostly with tab-target mode in mind.
1) The focal point of the camera needs to be such that you can see effects land beneath your feet. Maybe make this adjustable within reason because I often find myself zooming out in games just to see enough of the ground beneath me. Players also like to set UI elements in different places at the bottom or top of the screen. These effect visibility differently.
2) Limit zoom out. The max should be somewhere 20-30 yds.
3) 90* FoV (vertical) is best. Horizontal FoV will change based on aspect ratio.
4) I prefer centered camera rather than over the shoulder (for tab-target). Action can go either way.
5) Slider for mouse-camera sensitivity is essential. I was once a premier FPS player and play quite a bit lower than the default is in games, usually at the lowest possible setting for RPGs.
0
Idhalar AlBaieshMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Different activities call for different camera perspectives. I think the most important part is having a fluid and confortable way to change between perspectives when needed.
Only in silence the word, Only in dark the light, Only in dying life.
I prefer a flexible camera system that allows me to adjust both the angle and distance depending on what I'm doing in the game.
For general exploration and casual gameplay, I like a closer, more immersive view. This setup helps me feel more connected to my character and the environment, enhancing my overall experience.
In combat, particularly during intense PvP or large-scale battles, I favor a more zoomed-out view. This perspective provides a better overview of the battlefield, making it easier to track multiple opponents and allies, and to plan strategic movements. It allows for greater situational awareness, which is crucial in high-stakes encounters.
When participating in large-scale PvE events or navigating through densely populated areas, a mid-range distance with a slightly elevated angle is beneficial. This provides a good balance between seeing the broader environment and maintaining a close connection to my character.
Overall, having the ability to adjust the camera perspective dynamically is essential in Ashes of Creation. Different scenarios definitely call for different views to optimize both gameplay and immersion.
It shouldn't be allowed for one player to be able to get a "better" camera than the other if they are on the same plane, there shouldn't be an option to set a wider FoV because you have a bigger screen etc.
Camera should only zoom out for everyone when fighting a world boss or some other activity anyone can pariticpate in on equal terms.
I like to be able to change my distance based on the activity. For social I love close, PVE is a mid range, and PVP is farthest. Cap should be limited tho to prevent competitive folks from taking their own enjoyment away.
Behind and above and off center sounds good too for angle. Sometimes even getting to first person can be cool for a few social situations.
I prefer having the option to customize the camera depending on the type of content i'm doing. Not just zoom in/out but also camera altitude and off-setting to the sides for action combat. Having these options would also help with taking fancy screenshots
I think one has to be especially careful though when designing this. I'm all for adding any kinds of "options", as long as they don't give significant advantages over the default (default being more visually attractive). When you allow options that make the game worse, but also give advantages to combat, people feel forced to use the less attractive way in order to be competitive.
You never want to design your game in a way where you "force" your gamers to play in the less fun way.
THIS ^^^
The community will always be divided between immersion & practicality, with an immersive, close OTS camera reeling you into the world and characters, while a further birds eye view camera gives you more information, but makes you feel like you're a spectator peering from the outside in.
The camera, like the hud, should be situational & dynamic. If you're talking to an NPC, it should focus in. If you're on a mount, it should zoom out a bit. When you enter a small building, it should automatically tighten up to avoid having the camera "bounce off the wall" (That weird jump a game camera has to do when something comes between the player and the camera's raycast to avoid the camera clipping through the wall)
Elden Ring handles all this beautifully; only showing hud elements when needed, dynamically shifting the camera based on whether or not the player is riding a mount or targeting an enemy, and allowing the camera to go behind foreground objects by making them translucent as to avoid having that "bounce off the wall" effect I was talking about earlier:
(Baulders Gate 3 does away with this problem entirely by allowing the camera to phase through all objects, however this can obviously be a problem as we'd have people looking through walls) In Elden ring the camera bounce is still there if you jump to 0:49 in the video I linked, however it's a necessary evil to prevent people from looking through walls.
Another very, very, VERY under looked feature, and something you have to take into consideration when designing a camera is the characters walk cycle. It surprises me that more MMO's don't pay more attention to this, as it subconsciously communicates the overall quality of the game to the player right off the bat. Since your character is going to be on screen 100% of the time, it's important that the animations stay interesting and are satisfying to watch. The #1 thing people do in MMO's is walk around, so if you want to stand out it is important that the animations need to be state-of-the-art, at least just for the players character on the clientside. When someone's creating B-Roll for their Ashes of Creation video, and people watch it and see a polished walk cycle with the character dynamically looking around, fidgeting, adjusting their belt, etc... it elevates the quality of the game, and enhances the immersion ten-fold. A perfect example of this would be this RDR 2 walk cycle:
I, and many others, literally find myself just walking around in the game sometimes just because it's so satisfying. It feels like a necessary itch to scratch in order to get people to understand that this is no ordinary MMO.
i wanna be able to zoom out so i can see everything for mass pvp/big raids and open world events. but i wanna be able to zoom in enough so when im indoors my camera doesnt clip into anything. i would also like to ofset the camera for screen shots and stuff
Make the camera angle adjustable. Wow did it best I think dont reinvent the wheel. Keep it simple, let players be in control. Start with something easy and simple and something people are used to as your default angle.
As a very long time player of LOTRO I think they are the model every MMO should follow. Of course, in a raid or similar combat situations (especially in a group) you'll likely want to zoom out to the area. However, in solo or when traveling or just exploring you can use the mouse wheel to get instantly as close (first person view) or as far as you want at any time. With beautiful open world games like these you should have the option for the experience to be completely first person immersive or at any level of zoom you choose at ANY TIME (whether it makes sense to other players or not). If that can't be done at this late stage of development, then you absolutely missed something HUGE. As far as being able to move all around behind your character, Lord of the Rings: Return to Moria does a fantastic job of this so just replicate that (although I still very much wish I could zoom into first person view but that game does not accommodate this unfortunately). Similarly, Fortnite also has fantastic mechanics for camera view and would work perfectly as well.
Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.
Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!
Dev Discussion - Camera Perspective
Camera Perspective: What camera perspective do you prefer in terms of both angle and distance from your character? Do different situations call for different perspectives?
I very much prefer to classic, "from behind and slightly above view", like what we've seen so far in the livestreams. Please don't make it a looking straight down game. Also, please give us the ability to zoom waaaaay out if we want to.
I actually quite like the way Oldschool Runescape's camera works, as being able to mostly fix your angle of view depending on what content you are doing is very helpful. I don't think there's much point to limiting maximum zoom in, and I think being able to get close to look at your character and their gear is quite nice. As far as zooming out, I'm not sure what the max distance should be, other than "Not too far". I think it becomes a question more for things like boss design. If I'm fully zoomed out, I shouldn't have a situation where I am going to get offscreened by boss mechanics (unless I have my camera at a really stupid angle or something like that). But I also don't want to be able to zoom out so far that my character becomes only a spec. In any sort of relatively interactive activity I will almost always be playing completely zoomed out, but when doing things around towns or more 'safe' areas I will often zoom in more, usually to about 2/3rds of maximum or halfway between maximum and min. Obviously the exception to this is inside buildings where the camera needs to get pulled in to fit inside.
Edit:
It didn't occur to me when I first wrote this, because it's not something I'd almost ever use, but I do know that there are quite a few of my friends who like to be able to zoom all the way in to first person.
Always Always Always a huge fan of an action cam. Something over the shoulder 3rd person shooter/action style. I like to switch between that and traditional MMO scroll out in with character in the center cause that's easy and familiar.
However, ESO has a lot of customization on the camera which can also help just about any player. They'd be able to create their own camera angle.
Customization of where the camera can be with the right amount of zoom can be ideal but I do recommend trying to limit zoom to be very close. This could add a sense of awareness that players would need to keep when they're out and about both with monster and potential bandits.
Only zoomed in close, camera over the head or shoulder. Character fully visible.
Zoomed out has these flaws:
you become a flying drone, get detached from the character you play
you don't see your equipment, which is one of the main points of every MMO - get gear, look good
you don't see equipment of other players, meaning you ignore to identify players by their looks and only use text (their names). This results most of the screen becoming text
can't see enemy animations, meaning the gameplay becomes as simple as only tracking the location of enemy. All the reaction to enemy ultimate moves becomes obsolete
massive enemies/objects lose their psychological size impact (looking up with your eyes to the sky to see the whole size of a huge castle feels way different than looking down to a "toy" castle)
all the near objects that usually obstruct visibility (like a caravan - you don't see through it) lose this aspect. If you're guarding a structure, you need to be on your toes and scout around it. If you zoom out far - you lose all that gameplay part and just chill, while viewing the structure from "drone view"
Option to zoom out pretty far for crowded places. But also option to zoom in very close to the point where you see your face clearly. I like when I can change perspective/angle with my mouse, this is very good for cool screenshots for example.
I typically play 3rd person with just over the shoulder distance, except in raids where I am pulled way back. I do want the ability to go 1st person though.
Sometimes when tanking a boss, with my back to a wall (so not wind buffeted etc.) the camera typically goes 1st person and staring in the toes of a dragon, so we need to be able to switch to 3rd person and rotate 180 so tank and others, can see what is happening.
Pretty much the default camera, centered at the head. From a quite far distance, to a close step for full character view into 1st person. Max distance could be adjustable in the options.
No offsets to the sides, optional for sure if people want that, and of course no camera lag.
Comments
And then I'll zoom in and put the camera to the left/right to talk to NPCs, or over-the-shoulder to do other town-stuff. And sometimes I'm forced to zoom in inside cramped towns, where zooming out would cause the camera to bump into buildings/walls/banners everywhere.
I normally play over the shoulder and zoomed out. I want to see what is in front of me. I also want the option to zoom out quite far, I don't play that way constantly but I always want to ability to get a much larger picture. I don't play directly over the shoulder, I try to find a good balance between height and horizontal angle.
I would like to see really good sliders for camera height, camera zoom, zoom sensitivity and rotation sensitivity.
In regards to rotation sensitivity it feels like MMOs that have a slider for this often have an all or nothing feel despite the slider. The issue tends to be slowing the camera down. The sliders always seem able to speed it up to crazy unusable speeds but you don't have a good way to slow it down in an incremental way. I don't know why this is, I suppose it could be user error, but I always seem to run into that issue.
Max Zoom out, in "middle" position, in red.
The green line is the hit range of nuke or bow.
Orange is top position.
The wall is the castle wall.
By allowing the player to zoom all the way out, therefore seeing their environment from a bird's eye view, they can see everything coming at them. To me this cheapens the experience. If I wanted to play a MOBA I'd play a MOBA.
TLDR: If I had the choice, I'd limit how far the player can zoom the camera out to make combat more challenging and realistic.
And for the love of the universe: do not hardcode any keybinds. Put in place default keybinds you think make the most sense but let users rebind every single action.
There are too many games out there completely disregarding disabled users who just cannot use WASD or those who for whatever reasons prefer to use ESDF or even more exotic combinations. This has zero impact on others but has tremendous impact on the overall enjoyability of the game.
Being able to zoom out and move camera around was useful primarily to deal with raid mechanics needing to move to certain spots to insure you were inside designated areas. Being able to move camera totally freely could be viewed as somewhat of a "cheat" when able to look around corners or observe the area around you while being in an area which prevented you from being observed. I had always considered broken the clipping oddities in some games that allow you to look through walls and such.
As someone who loves to scout I'd love a narrow field. The greater the risk the greater the bragging rights.
1) The focal point of the camera needs to be such that you can see effects land beneath your feet. Maybe make this adjustable within reason because I often find myself zooming out in games just to see enough of the ground beneath me. Players also like to set UI elements in different places at the bottom or top of the screen. These effect visibility differently.
2) Limit zoom out. The max should be somewhere 20-30 yds.
3) 90* FoV (vertical) is best. Horizontal FoV will change based on aspect ratio.
4) I prefer centered camera rather than over the shoulder (for tab-target). Action can go either way.
5) Slider for mouse-camera sensitivity is essential. I was once a premier FPS player and play quite a bit lower than the default is in games, usually at the lowest possible setting for RPGs.
For general exploration and casual gameplay, I like a closer, more immersive view. This setup helps me feel more connected to my character and the environment, enhancing my overall experience.
In combat, particularly during intense PvP or large-scale battles, I favor a more zoomed-out view. This perspective provides a better overview of the battlefield, making it easier to track multiple opponents and allies, and to plan strategic movements. It allows for greater situational awareness, which is crucial in high-stakes encounters.
When participating in large-scale PvE events or navigating through densely populated areas, a mid-range distance with a slightly elevated angle is beneficial. This provides a good balance between seeing the broader environment and maintaining a close connection to my character.
Overall, having the ability to adjust the camera perspective dynamically is essential in Ashes of Creation. Different scenarios definitely call for different views to optimize both gameplay and immersion.
Camera should only zoom out for everyone when fighting a world boss or some other activity anyone can pariticpate in on equal terms.
GW2 has some settings that seem fair:
Behind and above and off center sounds good too for angle. Sometimes even getting to first person can be cool for a few social situations.
THIS ^^^
The community will always be divided between immersion & practicality, with an immersive, close OTS camera reeling you into the world and characters, while a further birds eye view camera gives you more information, but makes you feel like you're a spectator peering from the outside in.
The camera, like the hud, should be situational & dynamic. If you're talking to an NPC, it should focus in. If you're on a mount, it should zoom out a bit. When you enter a small building, it should automatically tighten up to avoid having the camera "bounce off the wall" (That weird jump a game camera has to do when something comes between the player and the camera's raycast to avoid the camera clipping through the wall)
Elden Ring handles all this beautifully; only showing hud elements when needed, dynamically shifting the camera based on whether or not the player is riding a mount or targeting an enemy, and allowing the camera to go behind foreground objects by making them translucent as to avoid having that "bounce off the wall" effect I was talking about earlier:
(Baulders Gate 3 does away with this problem entirely by allowing the camera to phase through all objects, however this can obviously be a problem as we'd have people looking through walls) In Elden ring the camera bounce is still there if you jump to 0:49 in the video I linked, however it's a necessary evil to prevent people from looking through walls.
Another very, very, VERY under looked feature, and something you have to take into consideration when designing a camera is the characters walk cycle. It surprises me that more MMO's don't pay more attention to this, as it subconsciously communicates the overall quality of the game to the player right off the bat. Since your character is going to be on screen 100% of the time, it's important that the animations stay interesting and are satisfying to watch. The #1 thing people do in MMO's is walk around, so if you want to stand out it is important that the animations need to be state-of-the-art, at least just for the players character on the clientside. When someone's creating B-Roll for their Ashes of Creation video, and people watch it and see a polished walk cycle with the character dynamically looking around, fidgeting, adjusting their belt, etc... it elevates the quality of the game, and enhances the immersion ten-fold. A perfect example of this would be this RDR 2 walk cycle:
I, and many others, literally find myself just walking around in the game sometimes just because it's so satisfying. It feels like a necessary itch to scratch in order to get people to understand that this is no ordinary MMO.
I very much prefer to classic, "from behind and slightly above view", like what we've seen so far in the livestreams. Please don't make it a looking straight down game. Also, please give us the ability to zoom waaaaay out if we want to.
But I also like that in wow I can zoom my camera into a first person perspective if I want to.
In general I would say, far away in MMO activity, middle for solo and PvE and close for city and nice location vibing.
Edit:
It didn't occur to me when I first wrote this, because it's not something I'd almost ever use, but I do know that there are quite a few of my friends who like to be able to zoom all the way in to first person.
However, ESO has a lot of customization on the camera which can also help just about any player. They'd be able to create their own camera angle.
Customization of where the camera can be with the right amount of zoom can be ideal but I do recommend trying to limit zoom to be very close. This could add a sense of awareness that players would need to keep when they're out and about both with monster and potential bandits.
Zoomed out has these flaws:
Sometimes when tanking a boss, with my back to a wall (so not wind buffeted etc.) the camera typically goes 1st person and staring in the toes of a dragon, so we need to be able to switch to 3rd person and rotate 180 so tank and others, can see what is happening.
No offsets to the sides, optional for sure if people want that, and of course no camera lag.