Thank you for another wonderful showcase! I appreciate Bucky taking the lead and playing when the action was getting spicy This is what I was leaning towards since Bard was announced as a possible Archetype. I cannot wait to test in A2
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
Prior to the showcase, I was hoping for this archetype to have a decent amount of healing potential in addition to all of the other utility skills someone may expect from a Bard. I was super happy with the presentation. So many important spell interactions. I am blown away by the potential of the Bard. I appreciate the multiple pathways of Melody, Dance, Song, and Story. Having the ability to use Melody and utilize other abilities is super important. I do feel the Melody system could be more of a Buff vs a Channel. I really enjoy the idea of the talent Counterpoint. A ton of Melody managing required to obtain full potential of the kit. Overall this is the type of Archetype I normally gravitate towards as a player.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
I am super excited to play the Bard as the utility is endless. Being able to swap buffs on the fly while also healing/damaging/ccing is crazy good. As stated above, I really enjoy the amount of healing available with this Archetype.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
The preview was amazing. One piece of feedback would be more abilities having the visual of the instrument selected within the Talent section. I wonder if even the selected instrument could display on the player's back? Also please add a Lute as an option!!!
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
The ability synergy is great and I am a huge fan of the current toolkit. Looking forward to see how more indepth it can be as you progress through player levels. Bard really reminds me of a Druid playstyle in Vanilla/TBC WoW. There are different tools available dependent upon the situation at hand. The longer cooldown abilities are a great touch and game changer. The ability to compete with the Cleric in healing as a "lesser" throughput option is quite appealing as well!
Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
I believe Bards should be static (mean they stay still) when casting powerful support spells, the party should play around its Bard, not the opposite. They also should generate aggro a lot, because those AoE boosts of friends, should demoralize affected enemies at the same time. Bard positioning should matter.
To the shiny animations themselves, I think it's too much, they look more like a holy paladin very often, especially with the book, it should be less graphical, and more about music. It's Bard after all, why should the music be shiny like that? why the book? Give them a musical instrument and work on melodies and sounds instead...
to the gameplay, it would be nice to make a sound/melody as an ability and make it do something generic as an effect, but sustainable but while their combinations one after one, would create a "song" in some predefined order which could cause some extra bonuses on affected and stuff like that... people would know instantly if it sounds like a concert of real music, that Bard is good. This is how I imagined a Bard in a game like yours, what you presented looks more like a witch/shaman or something like that. Why don't make Bard work with real music and let players make their own songs and music styles with sound abilities?
for offensive combat, I think they should use illusions, a lot of CC and definitely MELEE to do damage, not magic. Give them a rapier in hand.
so for me, this is not great, I think you are throwing an amazing opportunity in this class like that.
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
I have to say I love how the bard looks and plays but I am filled with a bit of apprehension. I know Bard is a support class but I would like a little more in its kit to do damage, so that a bard isn't suffering if they aren't playing in a group. The dances were amazing, the melody and saga system intrigue me, but the songs don't really stand out to much for me.
Personally I think the song combo system should be baseline, and maybe have the dance system have a similar function. One of the more exciting parts of bard seems to be thinking ahead on all the effects that can build up with a combination of abilities.
The bard stands out enough where it is a top 3 choice for me to play when the game comes out, and that is saying something since the bard class is never one I pick in any video game.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype? I think this might be divisive but for me I really love bards being able to give back mana. Buffs and debuffs are good, but bard being unique in the mana area will ensure they can be brought to the group. That and their sheer range of utility.
I know there is a worry bard will negate bad players with them giving enough mana to ignore the punishment of spamming abilities. I think if a bard is forced to give back mana over other melodies, the team is losing damage and healing they could have received if they managed their mana better already. My only thought is in the gameplay whenever the mana melody was played it didn't even look like the bars moved, which I hope would change a little bit, not too overpowering but enough for small gains.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview? Excitement: Playing a bard and considering comboing my songs for overlap, dances that stack upon them, and comboing my sagas for a masterful finish and mega buff. Bard took the interesting combination of hunts and marks and made their own variant of it that can spice up thinking ahead for players.
Concern: I am worried about how bard will feel to players who want a little more activity than being a buff bot. Support isn't suppose to deal damage, but I do feel concerned that the lack of interaction with the enemy might make players lean away from bard. I don't have an answer to this concern since its more of "why players don't play support" issue, but I feel it will be present in bard.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
This will be a bit of a leap, but FFXIV Ninja. There is a ninjitsu system in that game where players have to use three chakra in specific sequence for an ability that honestly feels like the player is spell crafting what they need. I feel the same way for Bard on sagas. The player will use three stories to build up to a masterful finish in their saga, with different effects based on the abilities they used. It will actively feel like making the saga as they go, and that is a nice touch.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos? I have mostly covered my thoughts on this topic before. I love the way combos feel for the bard, mechanically they feel sound and I like their abilities. My only worry is mana regen seems low, and I do not know how well bard will vibe with the vaster audience due to its perceived buff bot role.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
This might be mechanically hard, but could there be an option in the skill tree for bards to substitute the animation of whatever weapon they use for their instrument? Instead of the book they attack through the flute. Instead of using an axe they slap someone with a lute? I saw a lot of comments on the stream ignoring that the book was a weapon choice and not on the class, but it did give the feeling many people want an instrument to attack with over a weapon.
VFX/SFX songs is the only issue I have. Dances were amazing, props to that. Saga was amazing, but sadly in the mass of battle it will clutter everything.
So far, so good a few bits here and there that need tweaking but it’s a great first look! I agree with others that the health swap should be a cleric spell first. Second it’s really giving me GW2 music vibes which I love to see, one thing they did right was musical instruments please use them for inspiration going forward on using them not just in combat! One thing I saw mentioned was the singing spells, it was said on screen this would be a mess however a counter point would be instead of using a instrument you sing notes instead I think this would fit the spells whilst also adding SFX variety and not being too much.
Overall I liked the long preview, we got to see a lot more than just the bard, I think the abilities preview section of the video could have been condensed slightly. For the VFX I think some were just right like the melodies but the switching health ability seemed a little to over the top maybe reducing the size of the markers could help in this aspect. The starry night was amazing even if it was a little too much but this can always be fixed later down the line with VFX customisation controls. Abilities wise I loved most of them, I don’t know if it’s just because I’m a DPS usually but I think it’s lacking on a few damage skills / maybe more knockbacks. Tomato was a great touch and really good VFX wise. The spellbook looked great, I think it could do with being reduced in size ever so slightly but that would be one of my only issues.
Keep up the amazing work! Can’t wait for A2 and all its glory!
Really liked the direction you're going with the combat. Seems like a good amount of of potential decisions to make based on your allies and what's happening.
The example tradeoff for song enhancements in the skill tree could be cool. The buildup of song strength vs 2 songs going at once could be playstyle defining. Maybe you could more reliably setup big plays or disengage with a more powerful speed boost. Maybe a more powerful damage debuff makes the difference in securing a kill.
So for example, over 20 seconds maybe you go from 10% to 20% increase to damage taken, leaving the average damage increase over the 20 seconds at 15%. So not as efficient as a skill tree that has a second song, but maybe the boosted song becomes a viable option if you can coordinate a big burst in the later half of the boosted song. Which then creates different playstyles: 1 is planning for big moments and the other is more efficient and reactively swapping around?
It was very exciting to see a preview of the Bard Archetype during the July 2024 Development Update Livestream. It's refreshing to witness a class focused on supporting others, something that's been lacking in many modern MMORPGs where support roles are often limited to healers. The Bard's unique approach, emphasizing buffs, debuffs, and perhaps even control elements, offers a different dynamic and a valuable role in group play.
The preview also highlighted some beautiful instrument animations and visual effects, which contribute to the immersive experience of playing a Bard. It's great to see the effort being put into making this class visually and aurally distinct. This focus on a non-traditional support role adds depth and variety to group compositions, potentially encouraging more strategic gameplay.
I'm eager to see how the Bard Archetype develops and how it will interact with other classes in Ashes of Creation. It's definitely a step in the right direction for diversifying gameplay and providing new, exciting roles for players to explore.
Before we start, i know that you had more points for abilities {Important for context}.
1.
It was exciting as it is the class I will focus on playing during the Alpha 2, the abilities look pretty, they look useful and they all had a purpose but..
2.
Lets get to but's, in my humble opinion,
Button bloat is real. Simply combining the three skills together could be perfectly possible way of handling SOME of the spell interactions {AoE heal melody, AoE dance and the single target heal} and combine them in a way where one button could do all three and depending on ally proximity the effects would be more potent, with the option to single target the target you are *focusing*. Yes, you might want to nerf the healing output of each if you combine them or give them a higher cooldown. {But there is no need as it would be proximity/target based.} {same with the Movement speed buff, could be perfectly fine to have the movement speed to be higher based on proximity. With the possibility of the attack/cast speed buff on target.}
3.
I am excited to be a buffer/debuffer in the party more so than to be a dps/healer role.
I would love for bard to get more *survival* based abilities like the health swap one.
Reset for cooldowns for others and similar strong-long cooldown effects. To manage and play around with.
4.
I am concerned about the Button bloat as I mentioned previously and the problem is not many buttons.
The main problem is having many very weak, unrewarding abilities that yes, Some empower others and those will be rewarding and fun, but the damage or healing spells will feel more like a *piano* spam fest from how it looks like at the moment.
I am also concerned about bard in PvP or PvE having to be in the frontline without any proper defensives for themselves, but that we could perhaps solve with armour or shield.
5.
Visuals are amazing and pretty and i loved the new book weapon especially it not being attached to the body,
You could handle the buffs on the bard in a similar manner where you would show a spectral for example flute playing the *cheerful melody* instead of the circular yellow effect, but i like it a lot anyways, just wish you could see the instruments a little bit more.
6.
Mobility skill is too short even though it has two charges, the movement speed is great from skills but if you have to press *three global cooldowns* to dodge a mechanic/player aoe, you will be dead.
Solution is to give it more stacks or make it longer/faster.
Or.. you know.. make it one button instead of 2 buffs and a movement skill *wink*.
Additional points of concern:
PROS: Buffs look good.
CONS: Buffs lock you into specific groups. {Phys damage groups or magical damage groups}
Maybe it would be a solution to make damage buffs more.. generic but not in the boring way.
Just make it be *crit chance* or *damage with abilities* to make them more adaptable with random players instead of specifying *crit to physical* or *damage with magical*.
I like the *Ultimate ability* but i hope you will be able to specialize in it further or maybe even change it into something different like an AOE buff/Debuff.
I like that bards are going to struggle a bit solo, but shine in groups, that is how I envision a true support class, looking good on that note. I will provide ALOT of additional feedback during the Alpha.
See you all in Verra!
Bonus points for making a violin that functions as both a rapier and a shield.
Home run for sure. The class looks amazing. That is what I would have wanted for a return of the "support class".
- The abilities looked fun, and you stuck to the theme of having the abilities usable in multiple ways (ie the dash ability also able to "drift".)
- The class identity is unique and will set the game apart from it's current competitors. GW2 has it's Mesmer, you have your Bard.
- The animations looked great. I don't understand the calls to tone them down. They were fun and clean, stay with this. Anything less and you start drifting into the boring side of the animation scale. What you showed in this presentation is perfectly in the middle.
- The Book looks great, I would only change two things:
1. It's too big, should be 20 to 30 percent smaller. It overtakes your character.
2. It's too much as if the book is in charge of the character instead of the other way around. I think it could be fixed via the sheathe and unsheathe animations. If the character is seen to take command of the book and unleash it in the beginning, then seize control of it and put it away or stow it in the end, that would tell the user that their character is in charge instead of the book. Right now the book floats largely in front of, and around the character of it's own will and feels like it's accepting requests from the player but could change it's mind at any time.
3. The book plays into the theme of a Bard as a traveling scalar and story teller. I don't agree with the push back saying the Bard is strictly a travelling musician. The musician stereo type is only one limited version of a Bard. The Harpers, as a modern fiction example, had many preeminent scalars.
- The lighting changes look great so far. The game is starting to feel clean and real. That feel can set you apart from the saturated and misty look every other MMO tends to go for.
- Class balance? Who knows. We won't have any answers there until we are playing the class and can put it up against each other and the game world.
I genuinely cannot find any glaring negatives with what you are doing with the Bard. That looked amazing.
Bard showcase was awesome! Visuals and Music accompany each other in a beautiful fashion with a well rounded kit. I have only a few immediate complaints as to the bard and surrounding gameplay functions we witnessed during stream. Negatives:
Indicators surrounding your persistent songs seems a little TOO simple. I completely understand the want for the spells that are lasting nearly the entirety of combat to be very subtle, but they're almost subtle to the point of not feeling like a spell. They feel more like passives. Perhaps some sort of indication around the individuals you're benefitting and not just the AoE.
I'm a big fan of the concepts and starting animations of the spellbook weapon. As a person that has played with both of the previous versions of spellbook, the floating independent book that is flipping through it's own pages is badass. HOWEVER, the size is a little absurd. Having something that massive floating passively around you is a lot of visual clutter. Perhaps an animation where the character drifts the book to their back and sheaths it essentially?
This could be due to a lack of development in the music so far, but I would love to see some deep and powerful sounds for the bard. Yes the archetype is typical associated with jubilation and magnanimity... But I would love to hear the sounds of the literal core of Verra as the aoe attack is channeled. I want the powerful attacks to shake the inside of my skull, of course opted into my volume levels.
Honestly the positives per usual could be an infinite list of things. The art, mechanics, dedication, and wonderful personalities are always unparalleled. So I will do my best to find positives core to bard in particular. Positives:
The dances and the surrounding animations are INSANE. Those animations and the style they give off is game-changing stuff. Nowhere in the world can you get the mystical and stylized spell craft like that outside of my friends at Intrepid.
The concepts of ballots forming from stories told... culminating into a massive saga that changes the tide of battle... Someone get these people an award. I see that they were unfinished, so following this I will share my concepts of what I think could fill the remaining two slots:
The Return to Verra:Signifying the unwavering strength of the Verran people, a story is told of their return to a dangerous world. Allies within 20 yards of the bard gain Immunity from death and crowd control spells for 4 seconds. Upon the shoulders of nearby players, a phoenix wraps it's wings around their shoulders, signifying the life giver protecting those who continue to write the new story of Verra.
The Silent Pantheon:When creativity flows through ink and pen, mortals near the power of gods. A story of the celestial forms 10 pillars of light, shoving all nearby enemies away from the bard. Within that 20 yard area, allies are given a boon of power for 8 seconds. Light of the essence glows through the weapons and armor of the bard's allies, signifying the strength that all mortal possess.
The Myth of Creation:From the very beginning to the very end. A story that bridges the very bridges of time and reality. A story of calamity, slowing the bard and doing ramping damage to all enemies within 20 yards. A story of healing and redemption, where the bard heals all allies within 20 yards according to the damage delt by the calamity. A story of pushing forward into the future, where allies within 20 yards are given a massive movement speed and cooldown boon.
Alright, nerdiness aside, the bard provides such an IMMENSE opportunity for emergent player behavior. Often MMOs fall into the trap of believing every player should have the ability to do everything. I also fell into the trap as a person that plays primarily solo, but I was wrong. The bard has very little tools to adventure on their own, and playing solo as a bard would be a brutal struggle. Those who want to play bard would have to seek out friends, family, and guild. You're bringing the online back to massive multiplayer online.
Once again, you guys have not failed to put amazing amounts of player control in the class. Fluidity in the movement abilities, and lack of locking spellcasting the standing still, means that you can run free, dash and dart around. Nimble and bouncy just adds beautifully to the freeing and gleeful feeling of the bard.
I don't want to end up writing an entire novel in the comments here, as much as I easily could. So thanks for your consideration on my reflections and ideas! Super excited to see you all in October!
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
I liked what I saw on the preview about the Bard Archetype. BUT ... I have to say that as a huge dwarf fan I was a bit disappointed when I saw the new Dünir dwarf. The biggest problem for me was that the dwarf didn't have any beard which is the most known detail in dwarves. I can't really deside did the new model look little bit too small or should it stay like that (I hope players can change that in the character creator ). It was comical when the dwarf got the speed boost and rushed into the battle with his big shield and mace.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
Personally I'm not so interested about playing as a bard but this Archetype will be very useful and fun to have in a team.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I like that the bard's abilities and effects are seen far but I noticed in the preview that when you guys were fighting inside the building in a narrow room or hallway and the bard used the skill that has that cresent moon effect I couldn't see anything what was happening in the room. The bard's skills look good but it seems that sometimes the effects can block players sight which could be a big problem.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I used to play Guild Wars 2 and it has a class called Mesmer that looks a little bit similar to AoC's Bard Archetype. Mesmers are illusionist that wear magician clothes and theatrical masks and cast illusions and dots against their enemies.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Abilities, mechanics and combos look fantastic and Bard could have maybe the best looking abilities. Good work!
I'm concerned about the difficulty and power-level of the Bard as shown.
Historically, it has been very difficult to make support classes that are balanced while still feeling impactful to the player. This is because most of their power is spread thin across the whole party, and because their effects are largely indirect/delayed. Basically, they get no feedback on whether their abilities are actually helping or not.
Exacerbating that problem, this current iteration of bard also seems rather complex. It's able to apply a dozen different buffs/debuffs/CCs freely, without having to specialize into them via talents. So to play it effectively you would need to evaluate the opportunity cost of each of those effects (using a buttload of math and spreadsheets, because they are too indirect to evaluate on-the-fly), and then develop a split-second decision-making framework off of it. To put it bluntly, 99% of the playerbase will not bother with that. They'll just use whatever feels fun at the time, and be much much weaker because of it.
What this will result in: On the bright-side, yes, this is probably the most fun version of Bard for skilled players, but it comes with a significant downside, depending on how over-tuned it is. If it's balanced around high-end players, then the class will feel wishy-washy and useless to everyone else. If it's balanced to be fun for everyone, then at the high-end it will be incredibly overpowered. i.e. it will be 100% mandatory in 8-man parties, including the potential to replace other roles with a second Bard, and possibly mandatory in smaller parties as well. On top of that, the skill of the Bard player will make or break a group (because of their general power level and difficulty) without any clear indicators as to why or how (because, again, their effects will be too disparate).
So you have a choice. Bard can be left as a complex and niche character, and tuned down to the point that only dedicated Bard mains can even tell when they are having an impact. Or Bard can be simplified (given more upfront/impactful abilities, AND limiting how much utility they can spec into at one time), to make them appreciable by more players without becoming overpowered/mandatory in high-end groups.
And no, the overpowered option isn't acceptable long-term.
I think hotkey management is a huge concern for Ashes and there may be a way for Bard to evolve how hotkeys are done based on the kit seen. I'm thinking of Hwei from League of legends.
So on and so forth. You could also do a radial menu that allows you to hold 1+drag mouse towards direction of ability you'd like to use. Obviously this would be optional.
This opens hotkey room for adding in more utility, reaction-based, type of abilities like Ranged knockbacks, silences, counterspells, etc. without giving players arthritis while playing what looks to be like one of the most fun and skill expressive archetypes we've seen to date.
EDIT: I think the "templatable ability" can be it's own keybind. For the Ranger class for example you have Hunts, Marks, and Arrow Types which make it relatively easy to explain.
I can put Arrow Types as an ability on my Hotkey 1, or I could put Weighted Arrows on my hotkey 1. The difference is that "Arrow Types" will open up it's own menu that people can keybind.
Or if someone doesn't like the Consolidated Templatable Ability Types they can just put:
- 1: Hunt of Raven
- 2: Hunt of Bear
- 3: Hunt of Tiger
- 4: Mark of Raven
- 5: Mark of Bear
- 6: Mark of Tiger
- 7: Weighted Arrows
- 8: Concussive Arrows
- 9: Barbed Arrows
This allows for players who like having 30 hotkeys able to assign them, and those who don't want to reach their finger past the 5 key and take their hands off their movement keys (like me) and would rather press two buttons than take their hands of their movement keys an option as well.
_____________________________________________________________________________________ Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
Overall, the Bard preview was very good. Probably my favorite class preview to date. The four pillars (Melody, Dance, Song, Story) make for a distinct class. The kit is diverse enough that you can readily imagine the various scenarios that each skill is used for.
The one thing I didn't like was that the Melodies and Stories were very similar. I would make it so the Stories have several different cast styles (ground targeted, AoE on Enemy, AoE on Friendly, conal area), so that movement and positioning are more important for these powerful buffs.
Sound effects were great. Light enough to not be annoying, but still sound like musical combat.
There are a lot of bard players giving a really good feedback on how to improve the class. I hope Inrepid continue listening to us. I feel like this Bard is going great but still wasting a lot of potential of the Bard. There's still time to work it out. Please, listen to the ppl there are criticizing! We only wish to give insight 'cause we wish for the best (most of us really love this class).
There's a lot of ppl saying its perfect. It isnt, yet. Its very cool, very well done, probably the best Archetype, all around, along the Fighter. Cheers to Bucky on this one, for real! Just want to adress that the AOC Bard still have a long way.
Seeing that they reworked all classes they previously showed, I have a lot of hope for this one. This is why i'm waiting years for this game (and will wait how many they need). Thanks for all the hardwork and please continue to consider what we have to say! When u make a Bard shine, ur game will thrive.
I will edit the rest of this comment into a deep dive into all skills/abilities/spells, what actually felt good and what could improve. I will not go on into what was not displayed. This review will be mainly focused on insights of the skills presented. I will add the yt time 'em show up. Also will use the available wiki of the game.
MELODY
1st Melody - Cheerful Melody : its a skill that prob all bards in MMO have similar, nothing wrong with this skill, basic but usefull. Would add max HP % to allies into that. (yt time 10:30)
2nd Melody - Pensive Melody : Same with 1st song but the amount of MP giving is not handling the usage of party (as seen in the fight showcase). (yt time 13:30)
3rd Melody - Epic Melody : I don't see any player spending point in this Song, the benefits are too low, a lil movspeed (also there's the Nimble Dance that gives movspeed too). The way u could improve it is making it a double face skill, on enemies slow, on allies movspeed. U could also add ATKspeed to the pool. (yt time 17:02)
4th Melody - Cathartic Melody : Interesting skill but maybe 50% Lifesteal is too much? Never saw that much on a mmo AOE skill. Could work, could be broken. Maybe tune down the chance of the lifesteal or just tune down lifesteal to 30% or so. We will only know once the endgame is fully tested (yt time : 17:48)
5th Melody - Menancing Melody : I think 10% increased damage its too low, maybe do it 20%. Why? 'cause its a debuff that only works if u around the enemy. It have to be worth the risk. If u mantain a long range with this one, would be probably ok 10%. This is one of those things that can only be adressed properly with late game in mind knowing how much the damage will scale up but, anw, good song also. (yt time 20:10)
DANCES
1st Dance - Shielding Dance : the lil range is interesting, it will make mobility and positioning a must. For me is one of the coolest dances and shows a lot of whats a bard in the battlefied (ppl will want to get close to their group instead of going Rambo mode). (yt time 28:31)
2nd Dance - Nimble Dance : Here it comes the mov spd boost again, I think this is a waste of skill point to be honest, its similar to the 3rd Song but gives u a 5s buff instead (can stack with Epic Melody 'cause are different buffs). Idk if the 5s 50% Dodge buff make this a skill that I would spent valuable skill/ability point (yt time 30:58)
3rd Dance - Mesmerizing Dance : this one is probably a must. This dance along with Shielding Dance are probable the 2 AOE skills that got it just right in terms of Bard. We need more of those. The ability to debuff/disrupt enemies. This incapacitates (which they will lose after hit) and also can stun staggered enemies (yt time 34:47)
4th Dance - Maddening Dance : in terms of offensive doesnt seem much, in terms of defense would be more usuable. Example of scenario being a PVP where a group get into ur party members, u pop up maddening, while making some itch on them (with lil to no damage per second) u at least protect ur party by debuffing enemy by 30% of their damage. In PVE could be used easier on offensive terms.
>>> To get an enemy the Debuff (Humiliated) we need first to Demoralize with the debuff from Quick Wit (tomato form), since Quick Wit is single target, this will not apply to all soroundings, making a not so good skill. U could make it that the dance applies the effect Demoralized AOE and, after the end of the Dance applies Humiliated to all with Demoralized debuff. That's a huge difference, that's what we kinda want to see more. After someone pop that it will make Bard a main focus on the fight right away (so, he need ways to compensate for that focus, since the enemy can only do full damage to the dancer, they will want to deal with that right away, we still need a Cleanse or Dispell) <<< (yt time 38:33)
SAGA
Conflict : Another buff that raises the question again, those Sagas work only for allies or they work on u as well? Cant wait to see the other ones (there's info in the wiki if u guys wondering). The Themes system is very well thought! Another bullseye here.
Saga : Very interesting, one of the coolest things that u guys put out. I'm very interested in see the other combinations of Themes and what they do, probably some more healing, some other debuff, this is a cool system. Very well done indeed.
SINGLE TG/SELF SKILLS
Flourish : Interesting blink mobility, would be cool to see the interaction with rogue multiclass leaving a ilusion clone behind to fool enemies (or even with mage multiclass). Only improvment I can think of is to make the distance further and a passive option that adds Cleanse effect into it, the Bard doesnt seem to have any way to defend against conditions (which is wrong, Bards should def have that, even if only mental conditions - fear, mind control, sleep,incapacitade, etc). Mayb multiple stacks would solve that no cleanse problem, this is yet to be seen. Too much blink and ur game becomes an anime. (yt time 26:23)
Get Off The Stage : This is great. This along with Quick Wit are the spells I liked the most. They are a very funny and have a lot to do with the Bard aspect. As the devs on stream suggested, this need a boost of how far it knock back a person, I would recomend also knock down(trip) or Stun instead of Snare. This skill will be a fun way to trow ppl off cliffs and off the ships. Will be awesome. (yt time 40:48)
Quick Wit : Amazing skill. The bard MOSDEF need more doubled skiils, that u can use on ally, self or enemies. This will add a lot to the bard. (yt time 43:30)
Discordance : for me what shines the most here are the visual effects. This is beautiful. The term fits right with the spell, I would like to see Dissonance and Concordance also. In the showcase the visuals+sfx were incredible. The stagger is very interesting and could save u in situations. Def would change for something else, maybe charm related but u guys probably have some other skill that will do that (like that Marionette on the wiki) (yt time 54:20)
Gambit : This is probably the most funny spell along with Quick Wit (and what Get Off The Stage could be). This could either be a nightmare or the most funny skill on the game, sounds really like a gambit, lol. I would add random chance of buff or debuff, depending of luck. Would be cool if we could use it on enemies (with other effect or similar, randomness brings a lot to card spells). We need more Tarot oriented cards (like Tarot of Fate, from Ragnarok). This is a very Bardish thing, reminds me also of the famous 'Deck of Many Things'. (yt time 56:42)
Lovely Serenade : Ovr this ability is ok, its a basic/classic but usefull ability. Simple healing, could have more to it, the Glee thing (lol ISWYDT) doesnt seem to be that much but if stacks u could use with Quick Wit.
Anthem of Alacrity : Nice spell but would recomend that u could use it on self also. There's a bunch of buffs from the bard, none seem to be able to use on himself. The -cast speed and asp buff are good but do u really see yourselfs using this buff in a fight? PVE or PVP, would u stop healing (in this current build) and dancing/singin to single target increase someonse aspd for 10s? Its a really good buff but probably will depend a lot of the situation. Do we see someone focusing a Hunter/mage friend to constanly increase his aspd/casttime?
Chilling Lament : didn't really found out what Chilling condition does (prob slow and bonus damage from some source?) but the wiki say 5 stacks give u frozen, how much CD are we talking on this spell? enough to stack 5 in 10 second pool of the duration? This is another skill that makes this Bard seem too much mage and less a Bard, U could go more mage Bard but I feel that this skill is not worth it(yt time 51:48)
Dark Lullaby : A beautiful skill that fits properly a Bard (even in the mental aspect) but seems very lowgain on the long cast/low damage output and its single target, it took 4s to cast on the stream (in the wiki say its 3 but with pre and post cast delay of animation the time is almost 4seconds), maybe make it AOE to be more worth it, maybe add lifesteal to the damage either (like dream eater). The problem with this skill is that combos with Incapacitated targets that 'wake' when take hit, while Mesmerizing Dance is AOE u can only select one of those targets and try to stun it after the 3~4s cast. This will ask for huge coordination of none of allies using AOE skills or hitting the target of the Lullaby. I see ppl using this more on single player situations or when in danger, with limit skill points to get probably most Bards will never see this skill at all. (yt time 52:50)
PASSIVES
Resonant Weapon : this is another bullseye for me, its going in the right direction but probably need a lil work on it, the conditions matching the songs more, maybe fear and other conditions would fit there also. overall is one of the good stuff here. (yt time 1:04:07)
Song Passives :
Crescendo : the ideia is really good and just need to think through well and could 'fix' a lot of issues of songs. If they get stronger the longer u play, the 10% of Menancing Melody getting stronger would be nice. (now is 50% of the previous effect, in that ex would be 15% total instead of 10% total, probably need a bit more boost). (yt time 21:35)
Counter Point : Interesting passive that reminds a lot of passives from archeage and ragnarok. To have a lil of the old song played still running is very usefull and could conpensate for less bards on the Guild. (yt time 21:49)
Dance Passives :
Dance Mastery : Power : no info
Dance Mastery : Energy : no info
Questions :
1- The buffs from songs/dances will all apply to urself? U could attack and use Chathartic Melody at the same time and it will give u the lifesteal? If the Weapon Combos are met with the Songs (such as in Resonant Weapon), probably the answer it yes to ''u can attack and cast'', but just to be sure, 'cause most of the kit seems ally based, the songs/dances will affect the bard as well?
2- From the amount of skillpoints avaialable, we would have to choose either to play songs or be a dancer?
3- The Bard will have a cleanse skill? Or Maybe a Dispell Skill? They seem easy targets, maybe the Flourish could remove CC also...?
4- How Bards buffs and debuffs interact? If we have 2 Bards in party, the same buff dont stack, that was answered in the stream but what happens when u give ur party 10% more damage and the enemy Bard gives u -30% damage? The system just do basic math or a Debuff takes off a Buff and vice versa(like in DnD Haste and Slow)
♥♥♥
Final considerations.
The AOC Bard is very promising but is yet to be finished. The mental aspect of the class, with spells such as Crown of Madness, Hypnotize, Confusion, Silence, Laughter, Rage, etc are yet to be implemented into the class.
The class still looks a lot magical support oriented, if thats the path the game is taking, its ok,If you can make it as versatile as possible we'll appreciate it. The way it is now feels a lot like the only option viable is fullsupp.
Mind the fact that in the showcase they are lvl 11 and ppl will not have that many spells in that level. We will need to choose, I don't see the point on chosing a lot of skills in the current patchbuild 'cause there's a huge gap in benefits from one to another.
Overall the class is fine, I really enjoyed this class showcase and also know that it could change somethings for better (and should) and probably will, over time and development. Thanks for everything, this will be a great game.
We’d like your feedback on the Bard Archetype Preview shown during the July 2024 Development Update Livestream.
To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters you can choose from:
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Alpha Two Bard Archetype Preview shown during the July Development Update
We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, August 16, 2024, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!
Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
🎶🕺 Head over to our YouTube video to learn the in-depth intricacies of the Bard archetype! https://youtu.be/c7g8n02zIcE
I felt the preview was really good. I was really positively surprised.
The bard looked exactly how I wanted it to be, seriously. It seems like it had a ton of good stuff. There is small stuff I would have liked a little tweeked, but all in all, really awesome. It seems like its a jack of all trades, but it has abilities that enhances everyone else. I can be a tad worried, that they are going to suck in PvP, unless they are part of a group. Most of the heal or dmg they had, was slow. But we will see.
The spec tree seems a little small, for being the whole game worth, all the way to 50. I had hoped for more passives, that would boost your bard choices. But maybe thats where the 2end class comes into play.
I loved bards in EQ1 and EQ2. EQ1 was simple, for its time. But EQ2 was really cool for bards. It seems to have that feel for me. Weaving songs is such an important feature. I dont think it should be a choice to do it or not, it should def be a part of being a bard.So I think that choice to make the songs strong or weave, should be more like, what kind of branch of songs do you want better.
The music effects are cool, but I think, when you made the same move 1000 times, you probably will want to have an option to turn it down some I think there should be a few more instruments, but I think you allready figured that out. I do think bard should have some special amotes, where they play songs. Same as a warrior should have like a "pull up" emotees or whatever. Classes in general, just for the fun of it.
Guys, awesome job really!
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AikaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 1
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
It was amazing, I very much enjoyed the preview of the skills prior to showing party gameplay. One thing I'd like to see in future archetype previews is also talking more about the passives as well and how they'd change the gameplay of the archetype. Also if different ways of playing or specializations for the archetype have been designed, touch on these as well into more detail
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
The amazing synergies between the skills, it feels like a very dynamic archetype, constantly getting a feel of the battlefield while also thinking of what skill combos are optimal and keeping in mind what effects allies have applied to strengthen them with the Bard skills
And finally the skills effects and the character model movements while performing the skills are so cool
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I am very excited to test out the fluidity of the gameplay of the class, it looks fun and fast paced
My concern about the Bard is that it makes the Cleric look boring haha
More seriously, there is some truth about that statement in the way that I was planning on playing Cleric as I really enjoy healing in MMOs and Bard was my least favourite class before the showcase. After the preview, I am now considering playing Bard instead purely for the fluidity, fast paced and combo based gameplay. The cleric in comparison looks more static with long cast times and very few synergies or combos between the spells. I can see the team's design skills improving tremendously with each archetype design being more fun and fluid than the previous one, I really hope the cleric get some love and improvements skill-design wise in the future to match the fast paced and combo based playstyle as well the recent archetypes have when the core most important systems of the game have been finalized during A2.
I don't know if other cleric mains share this sentiment, I'll provide more detailed cleric feedback though after actually playing it in A2 to verify my concerns
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Most Bard designs in other games are quite boring to my taste, being either aura bots or useless, hence the class previously being my least favorite and anticipated. The only fun bard design I saw is the Bard in FF14 which seems a bit similar to the one you showcased
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I love the different and meaningful aura skills, the way they interact with stronger active dance skills of the same family.
I love how they have CC that can strengthen effects put by them or other archetypes
I love that they have some damage as well to contribute and defend themselves in potential 1v1 PVP or tools to run away
I love the mobility and the ability to respond to many situations on the battlefield encouraging situational awareness
I love the Saga ultimate ability that has different effects depending on the notes previously picked by the themes
I love the skills that have different effects depending on if the target is ally or enemy
I don't like the Gambit ability, I don't think it thematically fits the Bard and is more of a Cleric ability
Also it's prolly WIP, but I don't like that there too few build-defining passive skills for Bard (and the other archetypes too) The music mastery ones are amazing, but it's the only major passive to be picked shown in the livestream, I hope a lot more are introduced in the future for more build variety and customization
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
I do love them, they are very cool !
There is the blinding brightness of the skills in dark places, but that I know that is WIP.
Also not bard specific but one feedback about skill VFX is actually for monsters, they don't seem to have identifiable dangerous skill effects from what was showcased from the elites apart the spinning attack from that one elite. I was hoping monsters (outside of bosses) also have clear VFX of important abilities.
My only concern I am seeing right now is the Non-party AOE buffs for Bard.
What system do you have in place to prevent a RMT from PLing a large group of people by having a high-level Bard pull a large group of mobs, while low-level people kill them and receive healing?
I guess this sparks the general question surrounding PLing as a whole.
Bard looks crazy good. Like maybe too good... or rather too crazy. That's a lot of different buffs/debuffs/CC/heals to juggle at one time. Wouldn't it make more sense for Bards to spec into those and only take the ones they care about most?
It also looks very high-skill cap. But that's neither here nor there.
I'll leave it up to actual bard players to give more detailed feedback. As long as it's not stepping on the toes of Clerics too much, I don't really care.
Overall feedback I've gathered from my community, main Bards are very happy, overall class direction, the animations and vfx for skills the overall theme and functionality is everything that people expected so congratz on the class design and execution, very well done,
Overall lighting in the game is looking great, visuals are good, I'm still hoping to see FSR 3 implementation so that people without 40 series can get access to Frame Generation and be able to play at ultra settings,
something that I am very disappointed is to see intrepid decided to have an auto-attack feature, this really sucks and brings the game back to 2004 combat, Steven did mention a few times that AoC would not have auto attack and would have a more dynamic and active combat system, not sure why this was changed, an optional auto attack is terrible, and the game will be heavily criticized because of this like TnL was
Auto attacks also give an unbalanced advantage to ranged classes, as they can spam their attacks while melee cant since those are action based, and missing will slow you down
I also see flagging is required for showcasing things, I really hope we get a basic duel system implemented so we can test things out,
It would be nice to add more skills based on cards. I remember when I played Lost Ark as an Arcana class, I thought that it would be nice to have Bard in Ashes with card skills. I loved one of Bard skill (Gambit) was a card skill, but if there were more of them, it would be better.
First off I would like to congratulate the team on a job well done! The overall Bard arch-type has a great identity and hits much of what my wish list for bards is.
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
It was great!
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
I am really excited to play a true support class, that has many ways of interacting with my team and the enemy. Melody weaving looks extremely fun and allows for a higher skill ceiling. Each melody also has interesting interaction that I'm excited to test when able. The songs are also interesting each of them has a place, though Chilling Lament seems a bit out of place. The dances seem like good burst short term buffs that allow you to answer the situations in front of you, Maddening dance does seem a bit lack luster would like to see a bit more powerful affect for something that requires you to be so close to the enemy. Sage is probably what I am least excited about, I love the themes and how they work but from what is know about sagas I would like a bit more WOW, in terms of effect (visuals are awesome). The rest of the abilities also excited me, flourish, gambit and resonant weapons all give skill ceiling to the class which will make mastering it that much more fun.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I listed most of my excitement in the previous section but I'm very interested in group play and the capabilities of mesmerizing dance(AoE stun).
My first and largest concern is for solo players trying this class. I play in a group 80%+ but solo players who group up for 50% or less are going to struggle from what I see. This isn't a kit issue though. I think its more a balance of spells, which obviously isn't done.
I think a nice option would to be give a passive which doesn't let the bards melodies/buffs affect other players, but gives them a large dmg bonus for solo play would be a nice touch maybe call it : One Man Band?
Quick Wit longer cd (I think 5s would be more fair) when used offensively for a very low % dmg seems a bit underwhelming, you also lack much in terms of other ST abilities. The few options in the passive tree also seem like they could help but I would never take them in a group environment which might hurt solo bards capabilities of finding groups do the planned difficulty of respec.
The lack of a stun break could mean that bards are just locked down and out of fights quickly, PvPers will hard target them b/c they can't get out once caught. The ability to maybe enhance flourish could be useful.
Sagas seem a bit lack luster in terms of affect, I would rather seem the saga give a very enhanced melody buff or enhance themes used to cast it. 60-90s setups for a AoE fire spell (while looks great) seems lack luster for the bard identity. I would rather seem something like group alacrity for Tragedy(The Apocalypse), group temp health and % dmg reduction for Comedy(The Return to Verra), and a instant mana gain and reduced cost of spell buff from Mystery(The Silent Pantheon. The Myth of Creation could double or even triple bonuses of current Melodies giving you a nice planed out buff. ( The themes themselves seem great though )
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Augment/Preservation Evoker from WoW has been fun and I see many similarities.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Most of this has been explained above, but the combos look super fun and can't wait to try them out. Should be a great disengage CC mage. The lack of CC break may keep bard from entering melee as tank and fighters will eat them alive.
Resonant Words is my favorite thing in the kit as I get to plan melodies and my down time using my auto attacks can have impactful meaning.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Bagpipes when? Current options are nice also but.... Bagpipes?
Thank you again Intrepid for working to make MMOs great again.
Also Bucky great job, love all the work you put into the bard along with the rest of the team.
-How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
Great. Love it.
-What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
-Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
When player able to choose instrument I personally prefer it’s not only change animations or SFX but also change the play style like more aggressive defensive or supportive base on what instrument player choose.
Love the animations of dance skills I want to see more silly and maybe more meme dance moves in future that maybe can be implemented as kind of cosmetic for skills and players can get those during like April fools' day or halloween, for example:
get down meme: https://youtu.be/pr3gncRbzX4
or even maybe Thriller dance moves from MJ even halloween.
Love how Saga and story teller aspect of bard works. Looking forward to further development.
-Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
Wondering bard’s solo leveling or farming ability. And how well bard skills synergies to weapon skills.
-Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Saga’s mechanic reminds me hunting horn in Monster Hunter, but a mmorpg version.
Other skills also can be find in other games and not just in mmorpg genre, but I feel they are quite well done just not sure they are balanced.
-What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Just personally don’t like Anthem of Alacrity and Chilling Lament because these two skill both feels not as good as other skills. Personally Anthem of Alacrity should change to something like Quick Wit with different name, should be something like Quick Step when target is an ally that speed up target’s action then Disrupt the Rhythm when target is an enemy that slow down or even interrupt target’s action. Chilling Lament’s animation is okay but just feels not enough to say it's good.
Add some disturbing whisper sound in Dark Lullaby maybe better.
A casual follower from TW.
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PlasticLemonsMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
First off I would like to congratulate the team on a job well done! The overall Bard arch-type has a great identity and hits much of what my wish list for bards is.
Bucky great job, love all the work you put into the bard along with the rest of the team.
Overall, I'm feeling quite good about it! I have some suggestions, and also some hopes (which I hope will be more fleshed out when augments come into play) that I'll mention later.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
Since druids will not be available for play (at launch... ? I'll leave that open lol) the bard is the archetype I've been most excited about. Obviously, this has led to some projected expectations on how it might function - some of which were realized in its current iteration, and some which weren't.
What really excites me about playing a bard is the idea that you're a bit of a wild-card. You might be a musician, a dancer, a poet, or a combination of two or three, but most of all, a storyteller. With those qualifications alone, by all logical standards, you should NOT be out in the wild fighting bandits and monsters, yet here you are. With that, I think there's an inherent sense of eccentricity to the class concept, which helps to lighten an otherwise dark and gritty atmosphere. Their presence can be inspiring, maddening, or jollifying.
All that being said, unless a player chooses to go full bard with their augmentation, I believe these storyteller/entertainer elements should be split 50/50 with whatever combat style they choose to augment their base class with. At the end of the day, if all you know are some songs, stories, and dances, you're going to get your ass beat outside of a party before too long. I don't think the base class kit before augmentation should be so powerful that it, alone, allows the bard to sustain themselves in solo or small group play much longer past the level when augments are chosen. Past that point, they should be supplementary. Very helpful, and not toned too far down, but supplementary. If you double up on bard, I think you should expect to be in sizable groups in order to get very much done combat-wise as you progress further past that point.
Some class fantasies that represent this split would be:
Blade Dancer: Someone who specializes in nimble weapons like dual wield swords, daggers, or a rapier, and weaves dances and movement enhancing abilities in with their weapon attacks. Essentially a mobile, in-your-face, rogue/fighter-like class without the stealth or as high of crit chance as a rogue, or as much beast-mode energy as a fighter, who has a couple group buffs in their kit. This could be be the fighter-augment. Preferred instruments would be something light and elegant like a flute or fiddle - not too cumbersome.
Spell Singer: Someone who specializes in arcane arts and spell-slinging, weaving sung songs into their repertoire. I think the handful of abilities featured in the showcase that had the harp music strung into them to represent singing have a similar cadence to mage spells and would work well in between them, with the help of a few other supporting bard abilities. This class could be the mage-augment. Preferred instruments could be a small harp or a tambourine hand-drum, something that would theoretically allow the character to sing or chant while playing something melodic.
Battle Maestro: Someone who specializes in the glory and rhythmic tempo of bloody battle, wielding two-handed-weapons or a sword and shield, stepping into the fray to dish out a hefty wallop without all the acrobatics. I imagine it being somewhat like a mix between a war-drummer and a barbarian. Their ferocity is supported by the powerful use of percussive instruments to control and emphasize the tempo of battle, specializing in the melodic group-buff/debuff bard abilities, and preferring somewhat more cumbersome, but impactful instruments like drums or a bass lute (theorbo).
Hopefully this gives the idea of the balance I mean to convey. Perhaps some, or all of these class fantasies are more likely to be encapsulated by the use of a different base class augmented with the bard, rather than the other way around, but generally speaking, I hope to see some well-defined class identities through use of the bard archetype when paired with various other class augments that have a realistically even split between various bard-kit ability-school specializations that align thematically with their chosen augment's fighting style.
In other words, what excited me about playing a bard isn't so much the fantasy of being a wandering fool/acrobat/musician/storyteller who needs someone around to be the target of my buffs, but rather someone who possesses a specialized selection of those skills that align thematically with my chosen method of actual combat.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
So far, the animations all look great. What sound effects are there already sound quite nice. I hope, however, that bards will be forced to choose a school of "entertainment" to master, with much fewer abilities from the other schools. Right now, it seems like there are Melodies, Dances, and Songs, with the essential Stories/Sagas system for power-plays. Unless one chooses double-bard for their class, I think it's a bit much to expect them to know so much of such a variety of art forms. This also gives players opportunities through the skill tree to enhance certain schools and favored ability types beyond that of a jack-of-all-trades bard in a way that aligns best with their preferred combat or support style.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I would look to the way Bard Colleges are handled in DnD / BG3 for ideas on how specializations in the realm of the bard can create some great class fantasies without them all feeling too similar to each other.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I like the abilities, the general mechanics, and synergy between ability-school types.
However, one thing I would like to see is that if a player chooses to specialize in Melodies, that the buff they choose to get to their Melodic gameplay is tied to an increased span of time actually playing the instrument. I wasn't a big fan of how short a time the character is actually interfacing with their instrument, it kind of felt like an afterthought. If the bard doesn't choose to specialize in Melodies, then rattling off a short little ditty makes sense, but if that's their chosen mastery, then they should really be leaning into it.
For example, if the player chooses the Melody buff that allows them to stack/weave multiple Melodies into each other, then I think the duration of every Melody they play should be determined by how long they actively channel the ability/play their instrument before diving back into combat or beginning to play another Melody. So you could press the button for Cheerful Melody, play your instrument for ten seconds with no actions taken in between other than movement, break into combat to knock out a couple spells, then play your epic Melody for five seconds to get just enough charge out of it to give your party a quick escape. Changing nothing about the player's in-combat investment into their music-making while adding the ability to passively gain buff duration and stack multiple buffs on top of each other seems a bit lop-sided in favor of reward over risk.
Alternatively, if the player chooses the Melody buff that increases the potency of the Melody over the length of its duration, I think the increase in power should only tick up for as long as the bard is actively playing the Melody, up to a cap of 10 seconds played. If they stop short of that by using any ability besides moving, the increase in power stops wherever they left off.
For bards that choose to specialize in instrumentation, this will add meaning and connection to their chosen instrument, give them opportunities to admire and show off whatever instrument appearances they've collected, and balance the risk/reward they take on by making an investment in that school of "magic".
I also wanted to comment on the current direction of the Saga animation. I like the idea of the pop-up-book style animations in theory, but I think I would prefer a more combat-focused approach that leans into animations which are directly tied to the spell, a spell that looks the way you would actually expect a spell to look if you saw it in person. Somehow, the idea of fighting a bard, then seeing a giant phantom castle and disembodied dragon head breathing fire on it pop up in front of you with a cute storybook aesthetic before burning alive just seems a bit incongruent. Personally, I think it would be sick if the bard reached into their pockets real quick, pulled out a small bottle in one hand and took a swig, while pulling out and striking a torch with the other, then breathing a huge stream of fire into the air above their head that swirls into a big, fiery dragon flying in a couple elegant arcs above their head before spreading its wings out wide while facing ahead of the bard and descending into a sweeping glide for the length of the cone of affect in front of them, breathing fire over any foes unfortunate enough to be caught in its path. Equally demonstrative and fearsome.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Apart from the instrument usage, which I touched on earlier, the animations themselves were perfectly fine. Actual spell SFX were good too. The one thing I want to touch on here is the decision to omit vocalizations.
On its face, I understand the concern that actual singing with the Song type abilities (the serenade, lullaby, etc) could become discordant if you have multiple bards around each other at the same time, but I think it could be easily solved by limiting the SFX of the song vocals to the individual or party members being directly affected by the Song, and keeping them at a reasonable volume. You could test between actual lyrics and simple, melodic choir-style vocalizations, but I think the human voice is just so distinctive, that it's hard to do without. Trying to replicate it with harp SFX doesn't quite deliver the same feeling. If the team hadn't explained in the demonstration that they were trying to emulate singing with the harp, I wouldn't have picked up on that at all.
The same could be said of the Quick Wit ability. Something I really loved in Baldur's Gate 3 was the way characters who have the Vicious Mockery spell actually have a pool of great period-fantasy-sounding quips that they randomly rotate through whenever they cast it. It really delivers on the charismatic nature of the character using the ability and adds a great sense of class identity when used as a bard. Similarly, WoW players are quite familiar with the pool of thematic jokes that characters rattle off when using the /silly command depending on their character race. Similar remarks could be randomly cycled through when Quick Wit is used on an ally, evoking a soft chuckle from the targeted player in return.
With vocals in mind, I think players should be given the chance to choose a voice during character creation. Perhaps three choices for each gender/race combo or something. That way, the player gets to hear their character evoked when they make fighting grunts and such, when doing voice-line emotes outside of combat, but also, most importantly, when they play as a bard. I think it would give them a much better sense of personalized identity when carrying out that class fantasy as a charismatic entertainer.
Other Feedback:
The only other thing I wanted to touch on here was the spell-book weapon. I love the current design approach with it being a levitating tome that follows you around. The VFX it produced were excellent. However, I personally feel that it's a tad too big. It looks comical at this point. I don't think it needs to be shrunk a ton, but 10-20% would make a huge difference. It should still look like a large tome, but what we saw in the showcase was a bit ridiculous looking in my opinion. Perhaps you can offer players a scaling meter somewhere in the menu with a certain set minimum and maximum size? Would be nice for players who're playing differently sized races to decide how big they want their spell book to be in comparison to their stature.
Thanks for the preview! Looking forward to picking up an A2 key in the coming weeks!
one thing I would like to have changed is for the saga ability that the dragon head should be facing the direction that the AOE is going. it was weird that the dragon head was sideways to you as the AOE went in front.
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
It was impressive, this will be the best bard among all games, I don't want to be the other devs who are creating the other classes because the bard will outshine everybody else, good job mate!
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
I never thought of playing as bard before, until now... I liked the mobity and all the intrincasies, it's not just about giving a boring buff anymore, this bard will be important.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard
It's all good.
Archetype Preview?
It was amazing and also being able to focus in being a solo or a group bard is great, great job.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I think you should check the bard in that Ashes of Creation game, there's a great bard class system there... LOL, now AoC will become the reference of a bard, why even ask this?
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
As I understand, bards are also spies in fantasy culture and lore, I think it would be nice having a little bit of that vibe, maybe he could cloak, or blink, or disapear somehow, maybe even have some kind of poison or something to intoxicate your targets making them drunk... think of tavern skills in finding that vibe and remember they are often spies and assassins and not just support.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
I liked a lot the animations and effects, this is the first time I am satisfied with the effects in AoC!!!! The effects are smaller, they are very fast (I absolutely disagree in having effects that last for too long, they have to be as fast as a snap of fingers), there's much less clutter on screen and they express the idea of what is happening.
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
General feedback
Overall I think the bard class is fun and well designed, the lighting looks much better and the game is moving in the right direction
Bard class fantasy and identity
I think the bard class identity has the artist side of it well represented. But I believe the bard is more than that. The bard is THE jack of all trades of classes. It utilizes his artistry to generate magical effects for multiple purposes. A bard can inspire and support their allies but they can also be very creative when it comes to using his magic. I think this is the bard fantasy and identity keyword: CREATIVITY.
So I hope to see more creative spells besides simple heal/shield/dmg buffs/debuffs: illusion spells, charms, counterspells, and clever crowd control variations. Outside of combat, I hope bards have so many utility skills he could almost always go "I have a spell for that". I think BG3 could be a great source of inspiration for all that.
On the last note of bard fantasy, I would also hope for the possibility that bards playing together and synergizing spells could get increased effectiveness.
General skill design
What we've seen from the bard so far is very large AoEs and relatively long buff durations. This makes the bard very easy to play with almost complete disregard for positioning, LOS, the direction you're facing, etc. Currently, it is a very easy and simple archetype design with a low skill ceiling. I don't think this is the wrong direction because it is the basis for the class fantasy and identity, but I do think some improvements can be made to increase the skill ceiling of the class.
Since you can't really increase the skill ceiling by having aimed buffs or smaller AoEs and templated abilities, you could focus on the APM side of difficulty. So making bard's active buffs require timed inputs during its duration (like hitting notes to keep the music playing) to get buff bonuses could be an interesting way of making skilled play pay off for the class. Nothing crazy like Guitar Hero but something periodic like every 3 or 4 seconds.
Example: The healing melody. Buff lasts for 20 seconds, every 4 seconds you have a small sequence of 3 buttons (notes) chosen randomly from a pool of possible let's say 10 buttons (notes) to press, and depending on how well you timed the sequence and how many notes you hit, your buff gets better or worse. The values are just examples, but you can fine-tune it all depending on how low the skill floor and how high the skill ceiling is, and how rewarding it is to be skilled at it.
Bard class mechanic
The Bard class mechanic is a relative step in the right direction compared to other class mechanics but I still think it falls short of what a class mechanic needs to be. Class mechanics are what make classes unique and distinct from the others, and also serve to incentivize the player to perform their class role and reward them for doing it well.
While the bard class mechanic has semblances of resource management and a good complexity with mixing themes to generate different sagas, I think it fails to reward a bard player for being a good support for his party. I also believe this class mechanic is at the moment very isolated with only being important for the story spells and not including the melodies songs and dances. It is a good mechanic but I don't think it's a good class mechanic.
For example, you could implement the class mechanic so you have 3 theme bowls that fill once you use Bard support skills. Each support skill has a different theme and when you use it you increase that theme bowl. Once the sum of the 3 bowls reaches a limit, the following Bard support skills increase the appropriate theme bowl by decreasing the others. So a good bard can balance the 3 bowls using different support skills and keeping it at a proportion that they desire. The amount of resources on the bowls and the proportions dictate how effective the buffs/debuffs/dmg are depending on which bowl governs each status. You can then also spend these resources to use select powerful spells like the sagas depending on the proportion of the resources on the bowl.
This of course is a quick thought example and it is obviously flawed in some points and requires improvements in others, but it's just an example to show how much a class mechanic can tie the entire class design together and reward good players, making so skilled players that fulfill their role well have a big difference in performance from players that are just randomly pressing buttons.
Overall mob encounter
What I think is still missing from open-world mob designs is reactive gameplay. Mobs with stuns, buffs/debuffs, and cc abilities that need to be cleansed, high damage skills that should be interrupted. That type of reactive gameplay is almost absent at the moment. Also, mobs being slower than the player and having little to no abilities to slow the player down just means that ranged archetypes and ranged weapons will trivialize most content.
Remember this is just thoughts and opinions none of this is to be taken personally and any of it can be used and questioned
All the work done looks wonderful but I would like to see more Instruments during some of the abilities I like the idea of the dancing, which is great but But I also know it’s a lot of work to add additional animations for instruments so I was thinking along the lines of maybe having spectral instruments kind of like mage hand style make it partially see-through maybe or maybe a little bit spectral kinda look to it. I know that you have some of that look when you’re applying some of the buffs or debuffs With the abilities i’m also curious to know if there will be a sword singer option possibly for the bard. I will say I like the balance between positive and negative effects of the bard with combinations, I think more dramatic, bigger pose for the finale of a combo Could add some more pizzazz to the look of the bard coming from an actual (dancers)perspective giveing an option to cut combos short or changed and canceld could also be cool. Also, is it possible that when having a pet let’s just use A monkey, if you’ll get an added bonus to your performance, therefore possibly buffing your skills or something of that like or nature? Also based on observation, it looks like bard is a focused party support unit, but I also am thinking about solo play and with that Is there going to be a modification to damage or buffs or how long they last if you’re solo playing? Discordance is definitely one of my top favorite abilities that I witnessed during the preview gambit is probably also another favorite ability but overall in general I know balance will be adjusted till yall get it right but otherwise I love the kit and it looks verry balanced out I love it and am so happy you have a wonderful working bard.
Comments
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
Prior to the showcase, I was hoping for this archetype to have a decent amount of healing potential in addition to all of the other utility skills someone may expect from a Bard. I was super happy with the presentation. So many important spell interactions. I am blown away by the potential of the Bard. I appreciate the multiple pathways of Melody, Dance, Song, and Story. Having the ability to use Melody and utilize other abilities is super important. I do feel the Melody system could be more of a Buff vs a Channel. I really enjoy the idea of the talent Counterpoint. A ton of Melody managing required to obtain full potential of the kit. Overall this is the type of Archetype I normally gravitate towards as a player.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
I am super excited to play the Bard as the utility is endless. Being able to swap buffs on the fly while also healing/damaging/ccing is crazy good. As stated above, I really enjoy the amount of healing available with this Archetype.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
The preview was amazing. One piece of feedback would be more abilities having the visual of the instrument selected within the Talent section. I wonder if even the selected instrument could display on the player's back? Also please add a Lute as an option!!!
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
The ability synergy is great and I am a huge fan of the current toolkit. Looking forward to see how more indepth it can be as you progress through player levels. Bard really reminds me of a Druid playstyle in Vanilla/TBC WoW. There are different tools available dependent upon the situation at hand. The longer cooldown abilities are a great touch and game changer. The ability to compete with the Cleric in healing as a "lesser" throughput option is quite appealing as well!
I believe Bards should be static (mean they stay still) when casting powerful support spells, the party should play around its Bard, not the opposite. They also should generate aggro a lot, because those AoE boosts of friends, should demoralize affected enemies at the same time. Bard positioning should matter.
To the shiny animations themselves, I think it's too much, they look more like a holy paladin very often, especially with the book, it should be less graphical, and more about music. It's Bard after all, why should the music be shiny like that? why the book? Give them a musical instrument and work on melodies and sounds instead...
to the gameplay, it would be nice to make a sound/melody as an ability and make it do something generic as an effect, but sustainable but while their combinations one after one, would create a "song" in some predefined order which could cause some extra bonuses on affected and stuff like that... people would know instantly if it sounds like a concert of real music, that Bard is good. This is how I imagined a Bard in a game like yours, what you presented looks more like a witch/shaman or something like that. Why don't make Bard work with real music and let players make their own songs and music styles with sound abilities?
for offensive combat, I think they should use illusions, a lot of CC and definitely MELEE to do damage, not magic. Give them a rapier in hand.
so for me, this is not great, I think you are throwing an amazing opportunity in this class like that.
I have to say I love how the bard looks and plays but I am filled with a bit of apprehension. I know Bard is a support class but I would like a little more in its kit to do damage, so that a bard isn't suffering if they aren't playing in a group. The dances were amazing, the melody and saga system intrigue me, but the songs don't really stand out to much for me.
Personally I think the song combo system should be baseline, and maybe have the dance system have a similar function. One of the more exciting parts of bard seems to be thinking ahead on all the effects that can build up with a combination of abilities.
The bard stands out enough where it is a top 3 choice for me to play when the game comes out, and that is saying something since the bard class is never one I pick in any video game.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
I think this might be divisive but for me I really love bards being able to give back mana. Buffs and debuffs are good, but bard being unique in the mana area will ensure they can be brought to the group. That and their sheer range of utility.
I know there is a worry bard will negate bad players with them giving enough mana to ignore the punishment of spamming abilities. I think if a bard is forced to give back mana over other melodies, the team is losing damage and healing they could have received if they managed their mana better already. My only thought is in the gameplay whenever the mana melody was played it didn't even look like the bars moved, which I hope would change a little bit, not too overpowering but enough for small gains.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
Excitement: Playing a bard and considering comboing my songs for overlap, dances that stack upon them, and comboing my sagas for a masterful finish and mega buff. Bard took the interesting combination of hunts and marks and made their own variant of it that can spice up thinking ahead for players.
Concern: I am worried about how bard will feel to players who want a little more activity than being a buff bot. Support isn't suppose to deal damage, but I do feel concerned that the lack of interaction with the enemy might make players lean away from bard. I don't have an answer to this concern since its more of "why players don't play support" issue, but I feel it will be present in bard.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
This will be a bit of a leap, but FFXIV Ninja. There is a ninjitsu system in that game where players have to use three chakra in specific sequence for an ability that honestly feels like the player is spell crafting what they need. I feel the same way for Bard on sagas. The player will use three stories to build up to a masterful finish in their saga, with different effects based on the abilities they used. It will actively feel like making the saga as they go, and that is a nice touch.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I have mostly covered my thoughts on this topic before. I love the way combos feel for the bard, mechanically they feel sound and I like their abilities. My only worry is mana regen seems low, and I do not know how well bard will vibe with the vaster audience due to its perceived buff bot role.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
This might be mechanically hard, but could there be an option in the skill tree for bards to substitute the animation of whatever weapon they use for their instrument? Instead of the book they attack through the flute. Instead of using an axe they slap someone with a lute? I saw a lot of comments on the stream ignoring that the book was a weapon choice and not on the class, but it did give the feeling many people want an instrument to attack with over a weapon.
VFX/SFX songs is the only issue I have. Dances were amazing, props to that. Saga was amazing, but sadly in the mass of battle it will clutter everything.
Overall I liked the long preview, we got to see a lot more than just the bard, I think the abilities preview section of the video could have been condensed slightly. For the VFX I think some were just right like the melodies but the switching health ability seemed a little to over the top maybe reducing the size of the markers could help in this aspect. The starry night was amazing even if it was a little too much but this can always be fixed later down the line with VFX customisation controls. Abilities wise I loved most of them, I don’t know if it’s just because I’m a DPS usually but I think it’s lacking on a few damage skills / maybe more knockbacks. Tomato was a great touch and really good VFX wise. The spellbook looked great, I think it could do with being reduced in size ever so slightly but that would be one of my only issues.
Keep up the amazing work! Can’t wait for A2 and all its glory!
The example tradeoff for song enhancements in the skill tree could be cool. The buildup of song strength vs 2 songs going at once could be playstyle defining. Maybe you could more reliably setup big plays or disengage with a more powerful speed boost. Maybe a more powerful damage debuff makes the difference in securing a kill.
So for example, over 20 seconds maybe you go from 10% to 20% increase to damage taken, leaving the average damage increase over the 20 seconds at 15%. So not as efficient as a skill tree that has a second song, but maybe the boosted song becomes a viable option if you can coordinate a big burst in the later half of the boosted song. Which then creates different playstyles: 1 is planning for big moments and the other is more efficient and reactively swapping around?
The preview also highlighted some beautiful instrument animations and visual effects, which contribute to the immersive experience of playing a Bard. It's great to see the effort being put into making this class visually and aurally distinct. This focus on a non-traditional support role adds depth and variety to group compositions, potentially encouraging more strategic gameplay.
I'm eager to see how the Bard Archetype develops and how it will interact with other classes in Ashes of Creation. It's definitely a step in the right direction for diversifying gameplay and providing new, exciting roles for players to explore.
1.
It was exciting as it is the class I will focus on playing during the Alpha 2, the abilities look pretty, they look useful and they all had a purpose but..
2.
Lets get to but's, in my humble opinion,
Button bloat is real. Simply combining the three skills together could be perfectly possible way of handling SOME of the spell interactions {AoE heal melody, AoE dance and the single target heal} and combine them in a way where one button could do all three and depending on ally proximity the effects would be more potent, with the option to single target the target you are *focusing*. Yes, you might want to nerf the healing output of each if you combine them or give them a higher cooldown. {But there is no need as it would be proximity/target based.} {same with the Movement speed buff, could be perfectly fine to have the movement speed to be higher based on proximity. With the possibility of the attack/cast speed buff on target.}
3.
I am excited to be a buffer/debuffer in the party more so than to be a dps/healer role.
I would love for bard to get more *survival* based abilities like the health swap one.
Reset for cooldowns for others and similar strong-long cooldown effects. To manage and play around with.
4.
I am concerned about the Button bloat as I mentioned previously and the problem is not many buttons.
The main problem is having many very weak, unrewarding abilities that yes, Some empower others and those will be rewarding and fun, but the damage or healing spells will feel more like a *piano* spam fest from how it looks like at the moment.
I am also concerned about bard in PvP or PvE having to be in the frontline without any proper defensives for themselves, but that we could perhaps solve with armour or shield.
5.
Visuals are amazing and pretty and i loved the new book weapon especially it not being attached to the body,
You could handle the buffs on the bard in a similar manner where you would show a spectral for example flute playing the *cheerful melody* instead of the circular yellow effect, but i like it a lot anyways, just wish you could see the instruments a little bit more.
6.
Mobility skill is too short even though it has two charges, the movement speed is great from skills but if you have to press *three global cooldowns* to dodge a mechanic/player aoe, you will be dead.
Solution is to give it more stacks or make it longer/faster.
Or.. you know.. make it one button instead of 2 buffs and a movement skill *wink*.
Additional points of concern:
PROS: Buffs look good.
CONS: Buffs lock you into specific groups. {Phys damage groups or magical damage groups}
Maybe it would be a solution to make damage buffs more.. generic but not in the boring way.
Just make it be *crit chance* or *damage with abilities* to make them more adaptable with random players instead of specifying *crit to physical* or *damage with magical*.
I like the *Ultimate ability* but i hope you will be able to specialize in it further or maybe even change it into something different like an AOE buff/Debuff.
I like that bards are going to struggle a bit solo, but shine in groups, that is how I envision a true support class, looking good on that note. I will provide ALOT of additional feedback during the Alpha.
Bonus points for making a violin that functions as both a rapier and a shield.
- The abilities looked fun, and you stuck to the theme of having the abilities usable in multiple ways (ie the dash ability also able to "drift".)
- The class identity is unique and will set the game apart from it's current competitors. GW2 has it's Mesmer, you have your Bard.
- The animations looked great. I don't understand the calls to tone them down. They were fun and clean, stay with this. Anything less and you start drifting into the boring side of the animation scale. What you showed in this presentation is perfectly in the middle.
- The Book looks great, I would only change two things:
1. It's too big, should be 20 to 30 percent smaller. It overtakes your character.
2. It's too much as if the book is in charge of the character instead of the other way around. I think it could be fixed via the sheathe and unsheathe animations. If the character is seen to take command of the book and unleash it in the beginning, then seize control of it and put it away or stow it in the end, that would tell the user that their character is in charge instead of the book. Right now the book floats largely in front of, and around the character of it's own will and feels like it's accepting requests from the player but could change it's mind at any time.
3. The book plays into the theme of a Bard as a traveling scalar and story teller. I don't agree with the push back saying the Bard is strictly a travelling musician. The musician stereo type is only one limited version of a Bard. The Harpers, as a modern fiction example, had many preeminent scalars.
- The lighting changes look great so far. The game is starting to feel clean and real. That feel can set you apart from the saturated and misty look every other MMO tends to go for.
- Class balance? Who knows. We won't have any answers there until we are playing the class and can put it up against each other and the game world.
I genuinely cannot find any glaring negatives with what you are doing with the Bard. That looked amazing.
Negatives:
Honestly the positives per usual could be an infinite list of things. The art, mechanics, dedication, and wonderful personalities are always unparalleled. So I will do my best to find positives core to bard in particular.
Positives:
I don't want to end up writing an entire novel in the comments here, as much as I easily could. So thanks for your consideration on my reflections and ideas! Super excited to see you all in October!
I liked what I saw on the preview about the Bard Archetype. BUT ... I have to say that as a huge dwarf fan I was a bit disappointed when I saw the new Dünir dwarf. The biggest problem for me was that the dwarf didn't have any beard which is the most known detail in dwarves. I can't really deside did the new model look little bit too small or should it stay like that (I hope players can change that in the character creator
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
Personally I'm not so interested about playing as a bard but this Archetype will be very useful and fun to have in a team.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I like that the bard's abilities and effects are seen far but I noticed in the preview that when you guys were fighting inside the building in a narrow room or hallway and the bard used the skill that has that cresent moon effect I couldn't see anything what was happening in the room. The bard's skills look good but it seems that sometimes the effects can block players sight which could be a big problem.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I used to play Guild Wars 2 and it has a class called Mesmer that looks a little bit similar to AoC's Bard Archetype. Mesmers are illusionist that wear magician clothes and theatrical masks and cast illusions and dots against their enemies.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Abilities, mechanics and combos look fantastic and Bard could have maybe the best looking abilities. Good work!
Historically, it has been very difficult to make support classes that are balanced while still feeling impactful to the player. This is because most of their power is spread thin across the whole party, and because their effects are largely indirect/delayed. Basically, they get no feedback on whether their abilities are actually helping or not.
Exacerbating that problem, this current iteration of bard also seems rather complex. It's able to apply a dozen different buffs/debuffs/CCs freely, without having to specialize into them via talents. So to play it effectively you would need to evaluate the opportunity cost of each of those effects (using a buttload of math and spreadsheets, because they are too indirect to evaluate on-the-fly), and then develop a split-second decision-making framework off of it. To put it bluntly, 99% of the playerbase will not bother with that. They'll just use whatever feels fun at the time, and be much much weaker because of it.
What this will result in: On the bright-side, yes, this is probably the most fun version of Bard for skilled players, but it comes with a significant downside, depending on how over-tuned it is. If it's balanced around high-end players, then the class will feel wishy-washy and useless to everyone else. If it's balanced to be fun for everyone, then at the high-end it will be incredibly overpowered. i.e. it will be 100% mandatory in 8-man parties, including the potential to replace other roles with a second Bard, and possibly mandatory in smaller parties as well. On top of that, the skill of the Bard player will make or break a group (because of their general power level and difficulty) without any clear indicators as to why or how (because, again, their effects will be too disparate).
So you have a choice. Bard can be left as a complex and niche character, and tuned down to the point that only dedicated Bard mains can even tell when they are having an impact. Or Bard can be simplified (given more upfront/impactful abilities, AND limiting how much utility they can spec into at one time), to make them appreciable by more players without becoming overpowered/mandatory in high-end groups.
And no, the overpowered option isn't acceptable long-term.
1 - Melodies
2 - Dances
3 - Saga Builders
4 - Saga
1+1 = Cheerful Melody
1+2 = Pensive Melody
1+3 = Epic Melody
So on and so forth. You could also do a radial menu that allows you to hold 1+drag mouse towards direction of ability you'd like to use. Obviously this would be optional.
This opens hotkey room for adding in more utility, reaction-based, type of abilities like Ranged knockbacks, silences, counterspells, etc. without giving players arthritis while playing what looks to be like one of the most fun and skill expressive archetypes we've seen to date.
EDIT: I think the "templatable ability" can be it's own keybind. For the Ranger class for example you have Hunts, Marks, and Arrow Types which make it relatively easy to explain.
I can put Arrow Types as an ability on my Hotkey 1, or I could put Weighted Arrows on my hotkey 1. The difference is that "Arrow Types" will open up it's own menu that people can keybind.
Example scenario:
1 - Arrow Types
- 1: Weight Arrows
- 2: Concussive Arrows
- 3: Barbed Arrows
2 - Mark Types
- 1: Raven
- 2: Bear
- 3: Tiger
3 - Hunt Types
- 1: Raven
- 2: Bear
- 3: Tiger
Or if someone doesn't like the Consolidated Templatable Ability Types they can just put:
- 1: Hunt of Raven
- 2: Hunt of Bear
- 3: Hunt of Tiger
- 4: Mark of Raven
- 5: Mark of Bear
- 6: Mark of Tiger
- 7: Weighted Arrows
- 8: Concussive Arrows
- 9: Barbed Arrows
This allows for players who like having 30 hotkeys able to assign them, and those who don't want to reach their finger past the 5 key and take their hands off their movement keys (like me) and would rather press two buttons than take their hands of their movement keys an option as well.
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Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
The one thing I didn't like was that the Melodies and Stories were very similar. I would make it so the Stories have several different cast styles (ground targeted, AoE on Enemy, AoE on Friendly, conal area), so that movement and positioning are more important for these powerful buffs.
Sound effects were great. Light enough to not be annoying, but still sound like musical combat.
There's a lot of ppl saying its perfect. It isnt, yet. Its very cool, very well done, probably the best Archetype, all around, along the Fighter. Cheers to Bucky on this one, for real! Just want to adress that the AOC Bard still have a long way.
Seeing that they reworked all classes they previously showed, I have a lot of hope for this one. This is why i'm waiting years for this game (and will wait how many they need). Thanks for all the hardwork and please continue to consider what we have to say! When u make a Bard shine, ur game will thrive.
I will edit the rest of this comment into a deep dive into all skills/abilities/spells, what actually felt good and what could improve. I will not go on into what was not displayed. This review will be mainly focused on insights of the skills presented. I will add the yt time 'em show up. Also will use the available wiki of the game.
MELODY
1st Melody - Cheerful Melody : its a skill that prob all bards in MMO have similar, nothing wrong with this skill, basic but usefull. Would add max HP % to allies into that. (yt time 10:30)
2nd Melody - Pensive Melody : Same with 1st song but the amount of MP giving is not handling the usage of party (as seen in the fight showcase). (yt time 13:30)
3rd Melody - Epic Melody : I don't see any player spending point in this Song, the benefits are too low, a lil movspeed (also there's the Nimble Dance that gives movspeed too). The way u could improve it is making it a double face skill, on enemies slow, on allies movspeed. U could also add ATKspeed to the pool. (yt time 17:02)
4th Melody - Cathartic Melody : Interesting skill but maybe 50% Lifesteal is too much? Never saw that much on a mmo AOE skill. Could work, could be broken. Maybe tune down the chance of the lifesteal or just tune down lifesteal to 30% or so. We will only know once the endgame is fully tested (yt time : 17:48)
5th Melody - Menancing Melody : I think 10% increased damage its too low, maybe do it 20%. Why? 'cause its a debuff that only works if u around the enemy. It have to be worth the risk. If u mantain a long range with this one, would be probably ok 10%. This is one of those things that can only be adressed properly with late game in mind knowing how much the damage will scale up but, anw, good song also. (yt time 20:10)
DANCES
1st Dance - Shielding Dance : the lil range is interesting, it will make mobility and positioning a must. For me is one of the coolest dances and shows a lot of whats a bard in the battlefied (ppl will want to get close to their group instead of going Rambo mode). (yt time 28:31)
2nd Dance - Nimble Dance : Here it comes the mov spd boost again, I think this is a waste of skill point to be honest, its similar to the 3rd Song but gives u a 5s buff instead (can stack with Epic Melody 'cause are different buffs). Idk if the 5s 50% Dodge buff make this a skill that I would spent valuable skill/ability point (yt time 30:58)
3rd Dance - Mesmerizing Dance : this one is probably a must. This dance along with Shielding Dance are probable the 2 AOE skills that got it just right in terms of Bard. We need more of those. The ability to debuff/disrupt enemies. This incapacitates (which they will lose after hit) and also can stun staggered enemies (yt time 34:47)
4th Dance - Maddening Dance : in terms of offensive doesnt seem much, in terms of defense would be more usuable. Example of scenario being a PVP where a group get into ur party members, u pop up maddening, while making some itch on them (with lil to no damage per second) u at least protect ur party by debuffing enemy by 30% of their damage. In PVE could be used easier on offensive terms.
>>> To get an enemy the Debuff (Humiliated) we need first to Demoralize with the debuff from Quick Wit (tomato form), since Quick Wit is single target, this will not apply to all soroundings, making a not so good skill. U could make it that the dance applies the effect Demoralized AOE and, after the end of the Dance applies Humiliated to all with Demoralized debuff. That's a huge difference, that's what we kinda want to see more. After someone pop that it will make Bard a main focus on the fight right away (so, he need ways to compensate for that focus, since the enemy can only do full damage to the dancer, they will want to deal with that right away, we still need a Cleanse or Dispell) <<<
(yt time 38:33)
SAGA
Conflict : Another buff that raises the question again, those Sagas work only for allies or they work on u as well? Cant wait to see the other ones (there's info in the wiki if u guys wondering). The Themes system is very well thought! Another bullseye here.
Saga : Very interesting, one of the coolest things that u guys put out. I'm very interested in see the other combinations of Themes and what they do, probably some more healing, some other debuff, this is a cool system. Very well done indeed.
SINGLE TG/SELF SKILLS
Flourish : Interesting blink mobility, would be cool to see the interaction with rogue multiclass leaving a ilusion clone behind to fool enemies (or even with mage multiclass). Only improvment I can think of is to make the distance further and a passive option that adds Cleanse effect into it, the Bard doesnt seem to have any way to defend against conditions (which is wrong, Bards should def have that, even if only mental conditions - fear, mind control, sleep,incapacitade, etc). Mayb multiple stacks would solve that no cleanse problem, this is yet to be seen. Too much blink and ur game becomes an anime. (yt time 26:23)
Get Off The Stage : This is great. This along with Quick Wit are the spells I liked the most. They are a very funny and have a lot to do with the Bard aspect. As the devs on stream suggested, this need a boost of how far it knock back a person, I would recomend also knock down(trip) or Stun instead of Snare. This skill will be a fun way to trow ppl off cliffs and off the ships. Will be awesome. (yt time 40:48)
Quick Wit : Amazing skill. The bard MOSDEF need more doubled skiils, that u can use on ally, self or enemies. This will add a lot to the bard. (yt time 43:30)
Discordance : for me what shines the most here are the visual effects. This is beautiful. The term fits right with the spell, I would like to see Dissonance and Concordance also. In the showcase the visuals+sfx were incredible. The stagger is very interesting and could save u in situations. Def would change for something else, maybe charm related but u guys probably have some other skill that will do that (like that Marionette on the wiki) (yt time 54:20)
Gambit : This is probably the most funny spell along with Quick Wit (and what Get Off The Stage could be). This could either be a nightmare or the most funny skill on the game, sounds really like a gambit, lol. I would add random chance of buff or debuff, depending of luck. Would be cool if we could use it on enemies (with other effect or similar, randomness brings a lot to card spells). We need more Tarot oriented cards (like Tarot of Fate, from Ragnarok). This is a very Bardish thing, reminds me also of the famous 'Deck of Many Things'. (yt time 56:42)
Lovely Serenade : Ovr this ability is ok, its a basic/classic but usefull ability. Simple healing, could have more to it, the Glee thing (lol ISWYDT) doesnt seem to be that much but if stacks u could use with Quick Wit.
Anthem of Alacrity : Nice spell but would recomend that u could use it on self also. There's a bunch of buffs from the bard, none seem to be able to use on himself. The -cast speed and asp buff are good but do u really see yourselfs using this buff in a fight? PVE or PVP, would u stop healing (in this current build) and dancing/singin to single target increase someonse aspd for 10s? Its a really good buff but probably will depend a lot of the situation. Do we see someone focusing a Hunter/mage friend to constanly increase his aspd/casttime?
Chilling Lament : didn't really found out what Chilling condition does (prob slow and bonus damage from some source?) but the wiki say 5 stacks give u frozen, how much CD are we talking on this spell? enough to stack 5 in 10 second pool of the duration? This is another skill that makes this Bard seem too much mage and less a Bard, U could go more mage Bard but I feel that this skill is not worth it(yt time 51:48)
Dark Lullaby : A beautiful skill that fits properly a Bard (even in the mental aspect) but seems very lowgain on the long cast/low damage output and its single target, it took 4s to cast on the stream (in the wiki say its 3 but with pre and post cast delay of animation the time is almost 4seconds), maybe make it AOE to be more worth it, maybe add lifesteal to the damage either (like dream eater). The problem with this skill is that combos with Incapacitated targets that 'wake' when take hit, while Mesmerizing Dance is AOE u can only select one of those targets and try to stun it after the 3~4s cast. This will ask for huge coordination of none of allies using AOE skills or hitting the target of the Lullaby. I see ppl using this more on single player situations or when in danger, with limit skill points to get probably most Bards will never see this skill at all. (yt time 52:50)
PASSIVES
Resonant Weapon : this is another bullseye for me, its going in the right direction but probably need a lil work on it, the conditions matching the songs more, maybe fear and other conditions would fit there also. overall is one of the good stuff here. (yt time 1:04:07)
Song Passives :
Crescendo : the ideia is really good and just need to think through well and could 'fix' a lot of issues of songs. If they get stronger the longer u play, the 10% of Menancing Melody getting stronger would be nice. (now is 50% of the previous effect, in that ex would be 15% total instead of 10% total, probably need a bit more boost). (yt time 21:35)
Counter Point : Interesting passive that reminds a lot of passives from archeage and ragnarok. To have a lil of the old song played still running is very usefull and could conpensate for less bards on the Guild. (yt time 21:49)
Dance Passives :
Dance Mastery : Power : no info
Dance Mastery : Energy : no info
Questions :
1- The buffs from songs/dances will all apply to urself? U could attack and use Chathartic Melody at the same time and it will give u the lifesteal? If the Weapon Combos are met with the Songs (such as in Resonant Weapon), probably the answer it yes to ''u can attack and cast'', but just to be sure, 'cause most of the kit seems ally based, the songs/dances will affect the bard as well?
2- From the amount of skillpoints avaialable, we would have to choose either to play songs or be a dancer?
3- The Bard will have a cleanse skill? Or Maybe a Dispell Skill? They seem easy targets, maybe the Flourish could remove CC also...?
4- How Bards buffs and debuffs interact? If we have 2 Bards in party, the same buff dont stack, that was answered in the stream but what happens when u give ur party 10% more damage and the enemy Bard gives u -30% damage? The system just do basic math or a Debuff takes off a Buff and vice versa(like in DnD Haste and Slow)
♥♥♥
Final considerations.
The AOC Bard is very promising but is yet to be finished. The mental aspect of the class, with spells such as Crown of Madness, Hypnotize, Confusion, Silence, Laughter, Rage, etc are yet to be implemented into the class.
The class still looks a lot magical support oriented, if thats the path the game is taking, its ok,If you can make it as versatile as possible we'll appreciate it. The way it is now feels a lot like the only option viable is fullsupp.
Mind the fact that in the showcase they are lvl 11 and ppl will not have that many spells in that level. We will need to choose, I don't see the point on chosing a lot of skills in the current patchbuild 'cause there's a huge gap in benefits from one to another.
Overall the class is fine, I really enjoyed this class showcase and also know that it could change somethings for better (and should) and probably will, over time and development. Thanks for everything, this will be a great game.
Also loved the variation in skills and the fact skills had different ranges. I really enjoyed the concept of sagas and can’t wait to see the others
I am just going to make one request. Tubas. I would love to play a dwarf playing a tuba and casting get off the stage.
That is all
I felt the preview was really good. I was really positively surprised.
The bard looked exactly how I wanted it to be, seriously. It seems like it had a ton of good stuff. There is small stuff I would have liked a little tweeked, but all in all, really awesome. It seems like its a jack of all trades, but it has abilities that enhances everyone else. I can be a tad worried, that they are going to suck in PvP, unless they are part of a group. Most of the heal or dmg they had, was slow. But we will see.
The spec tree seems a little small, for being the whole game worth, all the way to 50. I had hoped for more passives, that would boost your bard choices. But maybe thats where the 2end class comes into play.
I loved bards in EQ1 and EQ2. EQ1 was simple, for its time. But EQ2 was really cool for bards. It seems to have that feel for me. Weaving songs is such an important feature. I dont think it should be a choice to do it or not, it should def be a part of being a bard.So I think that choice to make the songs strong or weave, should be more like, what kind of branch of songs do you want better.
The music effects are cool, but I think, when you made the same move 1000 times, you probably will want to have an option to turn it down some
Guys, awesome job really!
It was amazing, I very much enjoyed the preview of the skills prior to showing party gameplay. One thing I'd like to see in future archetype previews is also talking more about the passives as well and how they'd change the gameplay of the archetype. Also if different ways of playing or specializations for the archetype have been designed, touch on these as well into more detail
The amazing synergies between the skills, it feels like a very dynamic archetype, constantly getting a feel of the battlefield while also thinking of what skill combos are optimal and keeping in mind what effects allies have applied to strengthen them with the Bard skills
And finally the skills effects and the character model movements while performing the skills are so cool
I am very excited to test out the fluidity of the gameplay of the class, it looks fun and fast paced
My concern about the Bard is that it makes the Cleric look boring haha
More seriously, there is some truth about that statement in the way that I was planning on playing Cleric as I really enjoy healing in MMOs and Bard was my least favourite class before the showcase. After the preview, I am now considering playing Bard instead purely for the fluidity, fast paced and combo based gameplay. The cleric in comparison looks more static with long cast times and very few synergies or combos between the spells. I can see the team's design skills improving tremendously with each archetype design being more fun and fluid than the previous one, I really hope the cleric get some love and improvements skill-design wise in the future to match the fast paced and combo based playstyle as well the recent archetypes have when the core most important systems of the game have been finalized during A2.
I don't know if other cleric mains share this sentiment, I'll provide more detailed cleric feedback though after actually playing it in A2 to verify my concerns
Most Bard designs in other games are quite boring to my taste, being either aura bots or useless, hence the class previously being my least favorite and anticipated. The only fun bard design I saw is the Bard in FF14 which seems a bit similar to the one you showcased
I love the different and meaningful aura skills, the way they interact with stronger active dance skills of the same family.
I love how they have CC that can strengthen effects put by them or other archetypes
I love that they have some damage as well to contribute and defend themselves in potential 1v1 PVP or tools to run away
I love the mobility and the ability to respond to many situations on the battlefield encouraging situational awareness
I love the Saga ultimate ability that has different effects depending on the notes previously picked by the themes
I love the skills that have different effects depending on if the target is ally or enemy
I don't like the Gambit ability, I don't think it thematically fits the Bard and is more of a Cleric ability
Also it's prolly WIP, but I don't like that there too few build-defining passive skills for Bard (and the other archetypes too) The music mastery ones are amazing, but it's the only major passive to be picked shown in the livestream, I hope a lot more are introduced in the future for more build variety and customization
I do love them, they are very cool !
There is the blinding brightness of the skills in dark places, but that I know that is WIP.
Also not bard specific but one feedback about skill VFX is actually for monsters, they don't seem to have identifiable dangerous skill effects from what was showcased from the elites apart the spinning attack from that one elite. I was hoping monsters (outside of bosses) also have clear VFX of important abilities.
What system do you have in place to prevent a RMT from PLing a large group of people by having a high-level Bard pull a large group of mobs, while low-level people kill them and receive healing?
I guess this sparks the general question surrounding PLing as a whole.
It also looks very high-skill cap. But that's neither here nor there.
I'll leave it up to actual bard players to give more detailed feedback. As long as it's not stepping on the toes of Clerics too much, I don't really care.
Overall lighting in the game is looking great, visuals are good, I'm still hoping to see FSR 3 implementation so that people without 40 series can get access to Frame Generation and be able to play at ultra settings,
something that I am very disappointed is to see intrepid decided to have an auto-attack feature, this really sucks and brings the game back to 2004 combat, Steven did mention a few times that AoC would not have auto attack and would have a more dynamic and active combat system, not sure why this was changed, an optional auto attack is terrible, and the game will be heavily criticized because of this like TnL was
Auto attacks also give an unbalanced advantage to ranged classes, as they can spam their attacks while melee cant since those are action based, and missing will slow you down
I also see flagging is required for showcasing things, I really hope we get a basic duel system implemented so we can test things out,
It was great!
I am really excited to play a true support class, that has many ways of interacting with my team and the enemy. Melody weaving looks extremely fun and allows for a higher skill ceiling. Each melody also has interesting interaction that I'm excited to test when able. The songs are also interesting each of them has a place, though Chilling Lament seems a bit out of place. The dances seem like good burst short term buffs that allow you to answer the situations in front of you, Maddening dance does seem a bit lack luster would like to see a bit more powerful affect for something that requires you to be so close to the enemy. Sage is probably what I am least excited about, I love the themes and how they work but from what is know about sagas I would like a bit more WOW, in terms of effect (visuals are awesome). The rest of the abilities also excited me, flourish, gambit and resonant weapons all give skill ceiling to the class which will make mastering it that much more fun.
I listed most of my excitement in the previous section but I'm very interested in group play and the capabilities of mesmerizing dance(AoE stun).
My first and largest concern is for solo players trying this class. I play in a group 80%+ but solo players who group up for 50% or less are going to struggle from what I see. This isn't a kit issue though. I think its more a balance of spells, which obviously isn't done.
I think a nice option would to be give a passive which doesn't let the bards melodies/buffs affect other players, but gives them a large dmg bonus for solo play would be a nice touch maybe call it : One Man Band?
Quick Wit longer cd (I think 5s would be more fair) when used offensively for a very low % dmg seems a bit underwhelming, you also lack much in terms of other ST abilities. The few options in the passive tree also seem like they could help but I would never take them in a group environment which might hurt solo bards capabilities of finding groups do the planned difficulty of respec.
The lack of a stun break could mean that bards are just locked down and out of fights quickly, PvPers will hard target them b/c they can't get out once caught. The ability to maybe enhance flourish could be useful.
Sagas seem a bit lack luster in terms of affect, I would rather seem the saga give a very enhanced melody buff or enhance themes used to cast it. 60-90s setups for a AoE fire spell (while looks great) seems lack luster for the bard identity. I would rather seem something like group alacrity for Tragedy(The Apocalypse), group temp health and % dmg reduction for Comedy(The Return to Verra), and a instant mana gain and reduced cost of spell buff from Mystery(The Silent Pantheon. The Myth of Creation could double or even triple bonuses of current Melodies giving you a nice planed out buff. ( The themes themselves seem great though
Augment/Preservation Evoker from WoW has been fun and I see many similarities.
Most of this has been explained above, but the combos look super fun and can't wait to try them out. Should be a great disengage CC mage. The lack of CC break may keep bard from entering melee as tank and fighters will eat them alive.
Resonant Words is my favorite thing in the kit as I get to plan melodies and my down time using my auto attacks can have impactful meaning.
Bagpipes when? Current options are nice also but.... Bagpipes?
Thank you again Intrepid for working to make MMOs great again.
Also Bucky great job, love all the work you put into the bard along with the rest of the team.
Great. Love it.
-What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
-Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
When player able to choose instrument I personally prefer it’s not only change animations or SFX but also change the play style like more aggressive defensive or supportive base on what instrument player choose.
Love the animations of dance skills I want to see more silly and maybe more meme dance moves in future that maybe can be implemented as kind of cosmetic for skills and players can get those during like April fools' day or halloween, for example:
get down meme:
or Hathaway meme:
or even maybe Thriller dance moves from MJ even halloween.
Love how Saga and story teller aspect of bard works. Looking forward to further development.
-Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
Wondering bard’s solo leveling or farming ability. And how well bard skills synergies to weapon skills.
-Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Saga’s mechanic reminds me hunting horn in Monster Hunter, but a mmorpg version.
Other skills also can be find in other games and not just in mmorpg genre, but I feel they are quite well done just not sure they are balanced.
-What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Just personally don’t like Anthem of Alacrity and Chilling Lament because these two skill both feels not as good as other skills. Personally Anthem of Alacrity should change to something like Quick Wit with different name, should be something like Quick Step when target is an ally that speed up target’s action then Disrupt the Rhythm when target is an enemy that slow down or even interrupt target’s action. Chilling Lament’s animation is okay but just feels not enough to say it's good.
Add some disturbing whisper sound in Dark Lullaby maybe better.
Essentially feel the same way as Greek here. +1
Overall, I'm feeling quite good about it! I have some suggestions, and also some hopes (which I hope will be more fleshed out when augments come into play) that I'll mention later.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
Since druids will not be available for play (at launch... ? I'll leave that open lol) the bard is the archetype I've been most excited about. Obviously, this has led to some projected expectations on how it might function - some of which were realized in its current iteration, and some which weren't.
What really excites me about playing a bard is the idea that you're a bit of a wild-card. You might be a musician, a dancer, a poet, or a combination of two or three, but most of all, a storyteller. With those qualifications alone, by all logical standards, you should NOT be out in the wild fighting bandits and monsters, yet here you are. With that, I think there's an inherent sense of eccentricity to the class concept, which helps to lighten an otherwise dark and gritty atmosphere. Their presence can be inspiring, maddening, or jollifying.
All that being said, unless a player chooses to go full bard with their augmentation, I believe these storyteller/entertainer elements should be split 50/50 with whatever combat style they choose to augment their base class with. At the end of the day, if all you know are some songs, stories, and dances, you're going to get your ass beat outside of a party before too long. I don't think the base class kit before augmentation should be so powerful that it, alone, allows the bard to sustain themselves in solo or small group play much longer past the level when augments are chosen. Past that point, they should be supplementary. Very helpful, and not toned too far down, but supplementary. If you double up on bard, I think you should expect to be in sizable groups in order to get very much done combat-wise as you progress further past that point.
Some class fantasies that represent this split would be:
Blade Dancer: Someone who specializes in nimble weapons like dual wield swords, daggers, or a rapier, and weaves dances and movement enhancing abilities in with their weapon attacks. Essentially a mobile, in-your-face, rogue/fighter-like class without the stealth or as high of crit chance as a rogue, or as much beast-mode energy as a fighter, who has a couple group buffs in their kit. This could be be the fighter-augment. Preferred instruments would be something light and elegant like a flute or fiddle - not too cumbersome.
Spell Singer: Someone who specializes in arcane arts and spell-slinging, weaving sung songs into their repertoire. I think the handful of abilities featured in the showcase that had the harp music strung into them to represent singing have a similar cadence to mage spells and would work well in between them, with the help of a few other supporting bard abilities. This class could be the mage-augment. Preferred instruments could be a small harp or a tambourine hand-drum, something that would theoretically allow the character to sing or chant while playing something melodic.
Battle Maestro: Someone who specializes in the glory and rhythmic tempo of bloody battle, wielding two-handed-weapons or a sword and shield, stepping into the fray to dish out a hefty wallop without all the acrobatics. I imagine it being somewhat like a mix between a war-drummer and a barbarian. Their ferocity is supported by the powerful use of percussive instruments to control and emphasize the tempo of battle, specializing in the melodic group-buff/debuff bard abilities, and preferring somewhat more cumbersome, but impactful instruments like drums or a bass lute (theorbo).
Hopefully this gives the idea of the balance I mean to convey. Perhaps some, or all of these class fantasies are more likely to be encapsulated by the use of a different base class augmented with the bard, rather than the other way around, but generally speaking, I hope to see some well-defined class identities through use of the bard archetype when paired with various other class augments that have a realistically even split between various bard-kit ability-school specializations that align thematically with their chosen augment's fighting style.
In other words, what excited me about playing a bard isn't so much the fantasy of being a wandering fool/acrobat/musician/storyteller who needs someone around to be the target of my buffs, but rather someone who possesses a specialized selection of those skills that align thematically with my chosen method of actual combat.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
So far, the animations all look great. What sound effects are there already sound quite nice. I hope, however, that bards will be forced to choose a school of "entertainment" to master, with much fewer abilities from the other schools. Right now, it seems like there are Melodies, Dances, and Songs, with the essential Stories/Sagas system for power-plays. Unless one chooses double-bard for their class, I think it's a bit much to expect them to know so much of such a variety of art forms. This also gives players opportunities through the skill tree to enhance certain schools and favored ability types beyond that of a jack-of-all-trades bard in a way that aligns best with their preferred combat or support style.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I would look to the way Bard Colleges are handled in DnD / BG3 for ideas on how specializations in the realm of the bard can create some great class fantasies without them all feeling too similar to each other.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I like the abilities, the general mechanics, and synergy between ability-school types.
However, one thing I would like to see is that if a player chooses to specialize in Melodies, that the buff they choose to get to their Melodic gameplay is tied to an increased span of time actually playing the instrument. I wasn't a big fan of how short a time the character is actually interfacing with their instrument, it kind of felt like an afterthought. If the bard doesn't choose to specialize in Melodies, then rattling off a short little ditty makes sense, but if that's their chosen mastery, then they should really be leaning into it.
For example, if the player chooses the Melody buff that allows them to stack/weave multiple Melodies into each other, then I think the duration of every Melody they play should be determined by how long they actively channel the ability/play their instrument before diving back into combat or beginning to play another Melody. So you could press the button for Cheerful Melody, play your instrument for ten seconds with no actions taken in between other than movement, break into combat to knock out a couple spells, then play your epic Melody for five seconds to get just enough charge out of it to give your party a quick escape. Changing nothing about the player's in-combat investment into their music-making while adding the ability to passively gain buff duration and stack multiple buffs on top of each other seems a bit lop-sided in favor of reward over risk.
Alternatively, if the player chooses the Melody buff that increases the potency of the Melody over the length of its duration, I think the increase in power should only tick up for as long as the bard is actively playing the Melody, up to a cap of 10 seconds played. If they stop short of that by using any ability besides moving, the increase in power stops wherever they left off.
For bards that choose to specialize in instrumentation, this will add meaning and connection to their chosen instrument, give them opportunities to admire and show off whatever instrument appearances they've collected, and balance the risk/reward they take on by making an investment in that school of "magic".
I also wanted to comment on the current direction of the Saga animation. I like the idea of the pop-up-book style animations in theory, but I think I would prefer a more combat-focused approach that leans into animations which are directly tied to the spell, a spell that looks the way you would actually expect a spell to look if you saw it in person. Somehow, the idea of fighting a bard, then seeing a giant phantom castle and disembodied dragon head breathing fire on it pop up in front of you with a cute storybook aesthetic before burning alive just seems a bit incongruent. Personally, I think it would be sick if the bard reached into their pockets real quick, pulled out a small bottle in one hand and took a swig, while pulling out and striking a torch with the other, then breathing a huge stream of fire into the air above their head that swirls into a big, fiery dragon flying in a couple elegant arcs above their head before spreading its wings out wide while facing ahead of the bard and descending into a sweeping glide for the length of the cone of affect in front of them, breathing fire over any foes unfortunate enough to be caught in its path. Equally demonstrative and fearsome.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Apart from the instrument usage, which I touched on earlier, the animations themselves were perfectly fine. Actual spell SFX were good too. The one thing I want to touch on here is the decision to omit vocalizations.
On its face, I understand the concern that actual singing with the Song type abilities (the serenade, lullaby, etc) could become discordant if you have multiple bards around each other at the same time, but I think it could be easily solved by limiting the SFX of the song vocals to the individual or party members being directly affected by the Song, and keeping them at a reasonable volume. You could test between actual lyrics and simple, melodic choir-style vocalizations, but I think the human voice is just so distinctive, that it's hard to do without. Trying to replicate it with harp SFX doesn't quite deliver the same feeling. If the team hadn't explained in the demonstration that they were trying to emulate singing with the harp, I wouldn't have picked up on that at all.
The same could be said of the Quick Wit ability. Something I really loved in Baldur's Gate 3 was the way characters who have the Vicious Mockery spell actually have a pool of great period-fantasy-sounding quips that they randomly rotate through whenever they cast it. It really delivers on the charismatic nature of the character using the ability and adds a great sense of class identity when used as a bard. Similarly, WoW players are quite familiar with the pool of thematic jokes that characters rattle off when using the /silly command depending on their character race. Similar remarks could be randomly cycled through when Quick Wit is used on an ally, evoking a soft chuckle from the targeted player in return.
With vocals in mind, I think players should be given the chance to choose a voice during character creation. Perhaps three choices for each gender/race combo or something. That way, the player gets to hear their character evoked when they make fighting grunts and such, when doing voice-line emotes outside of combat, but also, most importantly, when they play as a bard. I think it would give them a much better sense of personalized identity when carrying out that class fantasy as a charismatic entertainer.
Other Feedback:
The only other thing I wanted to touch on here was the spell-book weapon. I love the current design approach with it being a levitating tome that follows you around. The VFX it produced were excellent. However, I personally feel that it's a tad too big. It looks comical at this point. I don't think it needs to be shrunk a ton, but 10-20% would make a huge difference. It should still look like a large tome, but what we saw in the showcase was a bit ridiculous looking in my opinion. Perhaps you can offer players a scaling meter somewhere in the menu with a certain set minimum and maximum size? Would be nice for players who're playing differently sized races to decide how big they want their spell book to be in comparison to their stature.
Thanks for the preview! Looking forward to picking up an A2 key in the coming weeks!
one thing I would like to have changed is for the saga ability that the dragon head should be facing the direction that the AOE is going. it was weird that the dragon head was sideways to you as the AOE went in front.
It was impressive, this will be the best bard among all games, I don't want to be the other devs who are creating the other classes because the bard will outshine everybody else, good job mate!
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
I never thought of playing as bard before, until now... I liked the mobity and all the intrincasies, it's not just about giving a boring buff anymore, this bard will be important.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard
It's all good.
Archetype Preview?
It was amazing and also being able to focus in being a solo or a group bard is great, great job.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I think you should check the bard in that Ashes of Creation game, there's a great bard class system there... LOL, now AoC will become the reference of a bard, why even ask this?
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
As I understand, bards are also spies in fantasy culture and lore, I think it would be nice having a little bit of that vibe, maybe he could cloak, or blink, or disapear somehow, maybe even have some kind of poison or something to intoxicate your targets making them drunk... think of tavern skills in finding that vibe and remember they are often spies and assassins and not just support.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
I liked a lot the animations and effects, this is the first time I am satisfied with the effects in AoC!!!! The effects are smaller, they are very fast (I absolutely disagree in having effects that last for too long, they have to be as fast as a snap of fingers), there's much less clutter on screen and they express the idea of what is happening.
Overall I think the bard class is fun and well designed, the lighting looks much better and the game is moving in the right direction
Bard class fantasy and identity
I think the bard class identity has the artist side of it well represented. But I believe the bard is more than that. The bard is THE jack of all trades of classes. It utilizes his artistry to generate magical effects for multiple purposes. A bard can inspire and support their allies but they can also be very creative when it comes to using his magic. I think this is the bard fantasy and identity keyword: CREATIVITY.
So I hope to see more creative spells besides simple heal/shield/dmg buffs/debuffs: illusion spells, charms, counterspells, and clever crowd control variations. Outside of combat, I hope bards have so many utility skills he could almost always go "I have a spell for that". I think BG3 could be a great source of inspiration for all that.
On the last note of bard fantasy, I would also hope for the possibility that bards playing together and synergizing spells could get increased effectiveness.
General skill design
What we've seen from the bard so far is very large AoEs and relatively long buff durations. This makes the bard very easy to play with almost complete disregard for positioning, LOS, the direction you're facing, etc. Currently, it is a very easy and simple archetype design with a low skill ceiling. I don't think this is the wrong direction because it is the basis for the class fantasy and identity, but I do think some improvements can be made to increase the skill ceiling of the class.
Since you can't really increase the skill ceiling by having aimed buffs or smaller AoEs and templated abilities, you could focus on the APM side of difficulty. So making bard's active buffs require timed inputs during its duration (like hitting notes to keep the music playing) to get buff bonuses could be an interesting way of making skilled play pay off for the class. Nothing crazy like Guitar Hero but something periodic like every 3 or 4 seconds.
Example: The healing melody. Buff lasts for 20 seconds, every 4 seconds you have a small sequence of 3 buttons (notes) chosen randomly from a pool of possible let's say 10 buttons (notes) to press, and depending on how well you timed the sequence and how many notes you hit, your buff gets better or worse. The values are just examples, but you can fine-tune it all depending on how low the skill floor and how high the skill ceiling is, and how rewarding it is to be skilled at it.
Bard class mechanic
The Bard class mechanic is a relative step in the right direction compared to other class mechanics but I still think it falls short of what a class mechanic needs to be. Class mechanics are what make classes unique and distinct from the others, and also serve to incentivize the player to perform their class role and reward them for doing it well.
While the bard class mechanic has semblances of resource management and a good complexity with mixing themes to generate different sagas, I think it fails to reward a bard player for being a good support for his party. I also believe this class mechanic is at the moment very isolated with only being important for the story spells and not including the melodies songs and dances. It is a good mechanic but I don't think it's a good class mechanic.
For example, you could implement the class mechanic so you have 3 theme bowls that fill once you use Bard support skills. Each support skill has a different theme and when you use it you increase that theme bowl. Once the sum of the 3 bowls reaches a limit, the following Bard support skills increase the appropriate theme bowl by decreasing the others. So a good bard can balance the 3 bowls using different support skills and keeping it at a proportion that they desire. The amount of resources on the bowls and the proportions dictate how effective the buffs/debuffs/dmg are depending on which bowl governs each status. You can then also spend these resources to use select powerful spells like the sagas depending on the proportion of the resources on the bowl.
This of course is a quick thought example and it is obviously flawed in some points and requires improvements in others, but it's just an example to show how much a class mechanic can tie the entire class design together and reward good players, making so skilled players that fulfill their role well have a big difference in performance from players that are just randomly pressing buttons.
Overall mob encounter
What I think is still missing from open-world mob designs is reactive gameplay. Mobs with stuns, buffs/debuffs, and cc abilities that need to be cleansed, high damage skills that should be interrupted. That type of reactive gameplay is almost absent at the moment. Also, mobs being slower than the player and having little to no abilities to slow the player down just means that ranged archetypes and ranged weapons will trivialize most content.
All the work done looks wonderful but I would like to see more Instruments during some of the abilities I like the idea of the dancing, which is great but But I also know it’s a lot of work to add additional animations for instruments so I was thinking along the lines of maybe having spectral instruments kind of like mage hand style make it partially see-through maybe or maybe a little bit spectral kinda look to it. I know that you have some of that look when you’re applying some of the buffs or debuffs With the abilities i’m also curious to know if there will be a sword singer option possibly for the bard. I will say I like the balance between positive and negative effects of the bard with combinations, I think more dramatic, bigger pose for the finale of a combo Could add some more pizzazz to the look of the bard coming from an actual (dancers)perspective giveing an option to cut combos short or changed and canceld could also be cool. Also, is it possible that when having a pet let’s just use A monkey, if you’ll get an added bonus to your performance, therefore possibly buffing your skills or something of that like or nature? Also based on observation, it looks like bard is a focused party support unit, but I also am thinking about solo play and with that Is there going to be a modification to damage or buffs or how long they last if you’re solo playing? Discordance is definitely one of my top favorite abilities that I witnessed during the preview gambit is probably also another favorite ability but overall in general I know balance will be adjusted till yall get it right but otherwise I love the kit and it looks verry balanced out I love it and am so happy you have a wonderful working bard.