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[Feedback Request] Alpha Two Bard Archetype Preview Shown in July Livestream

VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
edited August 30 in General Discussion
Hello glorious community,

We’d like your feedback on the Bard Archetype Preview shown during the July 2024 Development Update Livestream.

To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters you can choose from:
  • How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
  • What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
  • Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
  • Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
  • What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
  • Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Alpha Two Bard Archetype Preview shown during the July Development Update

We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, August 16, 2024, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!

Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
🎶🕺 Head over to our YouTube video to learn the in-depth intricacies of the Bard archetype!
https://youtu.be/c7g8n02zIcE
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Comments

  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    edited July 31
    I'll open this up after the showcase! It's a long one today 😅

    Thread has been opened :)
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  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 31
    I'm glad. As a Bard main, I've been waiting for this a long time. I'm not worried anymore. There may be other things I don't like about Ashes of Creation, but Bard is perfect.

    I appreciate the variation and distinction between the categories: Melodies, Dances, Songs, and Sagas. They provide a good balance of the solid AoE buff foundation that bards require, as well as clear stylistic choices and the ability to play in a more mobile, active style. Sometimes Bard designs can fall into the 'buff bot' trap, but with what you've shown me, I'm not worried about being stuck in the Backline.

    I appreciate Counterpoint, and will definitely be specing into that option personally. It's good to see how you've incorporated positive elements of multiple styles of Bard design from other games. Each 'school' of abilities seems to reflect a different philosophy on how Bard can work from a different game I like, and I'm more than ready to start putting the pieces together.

    (On that note, solid ability naming. Crescendo and Counterpoint are well chosen, as are many others.)

    The visual effects are wonderful. They're distinctive, they're easily identifiable. They're clean, and classy, and I love them. The SFX are solid too. At no point did I find them jarring. I know the team put a lot of work into that, and it has paid off. Good job!

    You seem to have done a good job of developing Bard's own specific identity clearly without cheapening Cleric or other classes, nor leaving out any crucial components for fear of doing so.

    I can say I was not expecting Sagas, but raining fire upon my enemies is going to be fun. I'm hoping for Ice and Light options in the future. Share some clips when those get fully fleshed out!

    It was good to see you all having fun in this stream. But more than that, it was good to see a natural Bard play the class. The smooth flow of combat and the experience as a whole that this brings really helped me get a feel for what my own experience would be. Thank you Steven, for stepping aside and letting Bucky show off the gameplay. It really has helped improve the presentation and the quality of the stream as a whole.

    Knowing that this is what we're getting is a weight off my shoulders. I'm excited to try it out as soon as you let me.
  • PoddyPoddy Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Would love the ability to upload custom tunes for each Bard skill - even if only in midi
    A system like Lord of the Rings Online ABC midi files maybe ??
    “Science and magic are the same thing. It’s just that one is understood and the other isn’t.”
  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 1
    Was not a fan of this months showcase unfortunately. Here's my feedback and constructive criticism.
    1. Bard Skills: I appreciated the showcase of bard skills. I initially expected them to come across as cheesy, but I was pleasantly surprised by the refined approach. The use of subtle musical sounds and spell effects added depth without feeling over-the-top.

    2. Camera Perspective: The consistently zoomed-out camera view remains a concern. While some players may prefer this perspective, it risks making the game appear more like a mobile title rather than a high-quality UE5 PC game with detailed textures. A balanced mix of close-up and distant views would enhance showcases and entice new players.
    3. Lighting and Color: The new lighting effects are impressive, but the overall color palette seems desaturated and muted compared to the vibrant world previously showcased. This shift may reduce the visual appeal and lively atmosphere of the game.

      Great camera perspective showing a vibrant world
      nema0prmy7m2.png
      Very zoomed out camera perspective showing a desaturated world with a lot less textures
      7pwbcekelqao.png


    4. Mob Animations: The mobs' movements and attack animations seem off, almost as if they’re running at a lower frame rate (around 5fps). This choppiness detracts from the immersion of the gameplay.

    5. Character Movement: During the segment where the team attempted to jump up the building, the character didn’t appear to recognize the edges for climbing. This lack of intuitive movement could frustrate players expecting more seamless interactions with the environment.

    6. Spellbook: The spellbook felt too cartoony for my taste. I recommend looking at the design of the Arcanist class in Elder Scrolls Online for inspiration on a more grounded and immersive approach.

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  • DreuguiDreugui Member
    edited July 31
    1.I think weaving multi music should be "mandatory" for 2. but if you want more ( 3+ ) you need to invest point.

    2.Can you make the music instrument "playable" a litle like the shawzin in Warframe (or the somacord ). for like in taverne or RP ( not for combat ).

    3.is the speed buff apply to mount/caravan ?
    Sorry for my english. French here !
  • s1zzl1ns1zzl1n Member, Alpha Two
    Love to see what the sounds for the instruments for Bard will be! Also, PLEASE add Unreal Engine 5 Tessellation feature to the ground in Ashes! Would help so much with the feel of the environment texture on the ground not feeling so flat.
  • ThorTestpilotThorTestpilot Member, Alpha Two
    I dont really like the floating spellbook, it would imo look cooler if its idle state was hanging from your hip by the belt or something, also its way too big.
  • SonicXplosionSonicXplosion Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 1
    Non-Bard Feedback:
    Skill Tree:
    I LOVE the change made to skill trees. Its something Ive been giving feedback on for a long time, and it really feels like the feedback was listened to. I disliked the need to spec into abilities you didnt actually want in order to get to the skills you did want, and I also thought the readability of the trees before was struggling. Im very happy with this change, and think it will be much more scalable with the addition of augments. I know some people might not like it, as they might confuse 'busyness' with 'complexity' but I think this is a great change.


    VFX:
    I appreciate the toning down of VFX across the board. For example that one green Ranger ability. Although some indoor areas can still be a bit rough with all the VFX condensed in one area.


    Minimap:
    I liked the previous artstyle of the minimap better, however I think the Season/Daytime indicators are good additions.


    Bard Feedback:
    What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?

    I went into the stream thinking the bard would be a mix of Lucio from Overwatch, and Invoker from Dota. It seems like the Melody abilities go down the Lucio direction, so Im happy with that. The knee-slide ability also reminds me of Lucios wall-riding mobility, which I think is great. Theres also the ability to combine Melodies and Stories, which I think gives it the Invoker vibe as well. Overall I think the kit is well put together, and expresses the different aspects of a bard, however, I think it would be cool if 'traveling bards' could also have the functionality to provide long term buffs to people through 'storytelling'.


    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?

    Im concerned about the need of a bard to act as a mana battery. Mana management is something that players should have to manage, and I dont think it should be turned into a binary issue of whether you have a bard in your group or not.

    Im also a little disappointed in the lack of actual flute and harp items that can be freely played. Hopefully something like that can be added in the future so people can display their musical talent.


    Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!

    I thought the level of VFX was great. Didnt feel overbearing or blinding (tomato splash could be less). I think the way of showing the melody range was great, but I think the range indicator should persist even after the initial cast (although with much lighter vfx so its just barely noticable).
    The SFX for the melodies didnt feel very impactful, although I think there was a preface that they arent in yet.
    Some of the animations for the dances seemed a bit silly, but maybe thats just the intended vibe.
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  • ChocometeorChocometeor Member, Alpha Two
    The Bard's Spell Book shouldnt Fly around that far away.
    It doesnt look or feels like its the Bards Weapon it nearly looks like another Actor.

    The Spell Book should stay at the Bards Hands Atleast.
    uwu
  • TorstenTorsten Member, Alpha Two
    I'm not a Bard but i am a fighter. i Really only have 1 question so far. if Bard casts an AOE healing ability and you are at full health, will the ability still be active on you to recoup health lost if youre damaged during its activeness OR if youre full health while the ability is cast and you take damage does the ability not recognize that or get negated? in quite a few games ive played over the years the later seems to be the case.
  • DaggialDaggial Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 31
    It might not be completely what I expected but seems an interesting class indeed.
    First impression is that bard needs a couple more active abilities. My fear is that it will just become a buffbot class. On the positive side, the concept of sagas is awesome and the statuses interactions too.
    I hope you guys will consider adding more soft CC effects in the kit like pulls/knockbacks and slows for those who have a more offensive playstyle.

    People that use a more close up camera angles will struggle with visual effects that over head / in the middle of the screen, like the one in the image below:
    mu76mrmesfyf.png


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    Monkey Business (EU) is RECRUITING
  • TheDaftOfUsTheDaftOfUs Member
    edited August 1
    The bard feels more like a mage than a bard. The bard should be instrument based not book based, imo.
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited July 31
    TheDaftOfUs wrote: »
    The bard feels more like a mage than a bard. The bard should be instrument based on book based, imo.
    Weapons aren't class-specific. Criticism of the appearance of the book idle & combat animations isn't really criticism of the bard class. Lots of people confident enough to send off their feedback before even halfway through the stream. ^^
    The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
  • arsnnarsnn Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 13
    Constructive Feedback:

    Class identity
    -i like the aoe and more passive gameplay idea around the bard but overall its too passive. I couldnt imagine playing this class for more than an hour and not be bored

    -give songs the "sona rework" treatment. This champion in league of legends used to have a similar kit to the bard with an aoe aura health regeneration, speed buff and damage buff. They reworked those abilities to have a strong effect upfront, the health regeneration got an additional shield upfront, the speed buff got a short strong speed boost upfront. This made the class overall more engaging and reactive towards threats and situations instead of just sitting back casting auras.

    Group context
    -love the group play aspect of the class, but would have expected it to be more integral in shaping formations and areas for groups. The aoes do a decent job at keeping your own group together, but there is nothing that keeps other groups out of your vicinity. I hope that large scale fights dont end up in an uncoordinated deathball of 200 people in one position.
    The meme clip of the bard you guys posted a while back had an aoe knockback that made me kinda hopefull that the bard could help building formations and establish clear areas where individual groups are positioned.

    General issues
    -I think the number of keybinds are bloated, while i dont have the feeling the class has a lot of depth and a long lasting learning curve. A lot of games have more class depth with less abilities imo. This is an issue i have with most classes right now.

    -for a project that prides itself with "transparent and feedback driven development" i think its a huge blunder that the combat doesnt get playtested extensively by players before hitting the public. I think the aoc would immensly benefit from a few dev iterations driven by hands-on feedback.

    -i couldnt bring myself to watch most of the group combat section because it was that bad. The spell effects and animations look decent in isolation, but in group combat it devolves into a complete mess

    -why would you showcase the bard in small cramped buildings when its so dependend on large aoes :D

  • SweatycupSweatycup Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2
    How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
    It looks promising and in a decent direction however the overall set makes the bard feel like it does not present a strong identity. At times it plays and looks like a mage and at others it plays and looks like a warlock without the undead.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
    1. The Armageddon saga story spell felt very underwhelming damage wise. Maybe you hyped it up too much? Get rid of the spell altogether as it is a warlockish spell. If i played a bard in DnD and mixed in a warlock i feel like that's where this spell belongs.. Something more themed to a bard would be nice.
    2. Will the bard be able to overlap or rather increase other bard buffs in larger groups such as raids? It feels like a missed opportunity for even larger group symmetry gameplay. Cleared up by Steven still think with hard diminishing returns to a certain stack amount/% would be nice.
    3. The ability not to use a musical instrument as the weapon itself and not the book would be nice. Even if it ends up being as a secondary class addon like a blade dancer i think it was called? I was thinking more like in Kung Fu Hustle when the one guy plays his instrument and flings weapons with every note. As far as i understand this is a big deal since there is no actual musical *weapons* in-game. Maybe this changed sometime?


    Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
    What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
    The closest i have played is a Entertainer in Star Wars Galaxies. It is more of a buff bot then active support. Also however i will add that the animations on the Tera kasi should be considered for a bard secondary/primary archetype. The flashiness of the moves with the weapon are what the bard could use in melee to distinguish itself from normal melee classes.

    Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
    1. The Armageddon saga story animation felt lack luster as you stated i do hope you keep with the storybook opening idea instead of the 2d dragon placeholder. My opinion get rid of it, replace it with something else as a finisher. Or rename it something that makes it feel more bard like.
    2. Identity as a bard with the book sometimes make me think its a support wizard. The animation for the ranged attack on the book would be much better if the page being flung was more prounounced, could barely tell it was book attack and not just a wand attack. As well some of the abilities just look like a wizards spells with or without the book. Maybe it will change when more sounds and animations come in? Maybe as stated above secondary classes will help? It should feel boisterous and loud all around as a class like the colors of the dash ability... it does not need to be boisterous or loud in each aspect like sound, animations, colors, brightness, visual space but should pop where its most active.



    What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
    A support class that will be wanted


    Currently impertinently unimportant the long term buffs talked about outside of combat i think would be best served in a inn/tavern using things/items already in the place like a piano or a table top. SWG was my favorite for this since it created a place people would gather and meet before heading out and chit chat with others. I met tons of new people this way.

    Overall i think you are going in a wonderful direction and do hope to play alot of bard in alpha 2. I look forward to seeing the class when its completed and gone through proper iterations.
  • protostarprotostar Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Please let there be song twisting. Lingering effects allowing for multiple songs to be "twisted" and have multiple bard effects going at the same time. The trick is keeping track of timers on the Bard's part for maximum benefit. This goes way back to original Everquest bard playstyles
  • simbosssimboss Member, Alpha Two
    Sounds fighting over each other and the lightening is all to much
  • Gaul_Gaul_ Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 1
    As someone with no plans to play this archetype, the Bard looks great. It has, by far, the best class identity Intrepid has shown so far. The gentle melody sound effects are great, and the melody weaving looks like a good mechanic as well. I was hoping that the dances would integrate well with character movement, and that's exactly what was shown. Great job on those, and Flourish as well. Quick Wit really shows that the archetype designer understands the Bard class fantasy. Well done. The placeholder castle lore graphic for Saga is also a great idea, and I can't wait to see the complete versions of those.

    For Bard suggestions, I would like to see an out of combat sitting ability to speed up recovery. If this can serve as a clear party signal to start and stop the resting period, that would be a good function for it as well. This would tend to put the Bard "in charge" of beginning and ending the rest period, so the other party members don't have to pay close attention. During the stream I noticed party members getting confused and stopping to rest at different times while others were still fighting. An ability themed like plucking an instrument by the campfire, for example.

    Some minor criticisms:

    1) I didn't care for the book. It is far too large, too far in front of the character, it should not float all of the time, and it looks very cartoony. It was comically out of place as soon as the video started. I would recommend going back to the drawing board a bit with the spell book. If Intrepid is married to the current concept, then I recommend reducing the size by at least 30% and that should help on all fronts. I did like the page turning animations, however. It's high-quality work but it just seems out of place.

    2) Steven discussed this a bit afterwards, and yes, the audio during the fights was overwhelmingly chaotic. The Mage's lightning ball and other lightning spells are grating and not pleasant sounding at all.

    Aside from those minor issues, the stream was excellent. The Bard class fantasy was honestly much stronger than any archetype shown so far. I encourage the designers to look at the other class fantasies and try to bring them up to the Bard's level now. I'm certain it will be a popular choice for players.
  • Duncan DonutDuncan Donut Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Love the visual effects, not too overbearing but still gets the thematics across of a bard in battle.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Overhead spotlight animations are a bit much
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • Senator DodoSenator Dodo Member, Alpha Two
    Wonder if you could shrink down on UI clutter by grouping the songs, dances and melodies into 3 abilities each that open up to the individual abilities with a second button click.
    If you play LoL you'll know this as Hwei's mechanic.
    For example:
    You have a skill called "melodies" and after clicking it, it opens the melodies "tab" where you can click 1-5 to for the specific melody.
  • SirFluffySirFluffy Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 31
    I love the Bard so far, but things will have to be tested.
    Except for 2 things I loved all of the things I have seen.

    Feedback for things to be changed:
    1. I´m not too fond of the sound of the single target heal.
    2. With the animation of the spelltome in mind. I think it would be a great change to have the Tome on the side of your hip while outside of combat and the weapon unsheathed.
  • FefnerFefner Member, Alpha Two
    i love to play bards but bards needs to play instruments not have a book flying about. Love the skills though
  • JohannesJohannes Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
    I loved it. The Bard brings a lot to the party and truly lives up to its role as a support class. The skill tree adjustments add a lot to the gameplay, providing choices that enhance immersion and offer an exciting opportunity to break the meta that will eventually form. I hope to see more choices available for all classes.

    What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
    The utility of the Bard is fascinating, offering both AOE and single-target CC effects, healing, movement, and various party buffs. The damaging abilities look impactful and even more fun with combos.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
    I'm sure you will hear this a million times, but we want to be able to play MIDI files on local audio channels for RP reasons. I understand the potential for toxic behavior, but a UI prompt to disable a Bard's MIDI instrument on the client side would be a nice feature, leaving their mic unmuted and communication clear.

    Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain! What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
    I enjoyed Anarchy Online's Fixer class, which was very similar to a Bard in the way it brought utility, buffs, and debuffs both in and out of battle. One feature I loved was its long-term buffs lasting several hours, allowing players to equip upscaled gear and craft better items, similar to a muse giving an artisan inspiration for a legendary work. This was a good money-maker for the class and provided great opportunities to interact with other players.

    Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX?
    The melody songs seem a little underplayed. Having a similar visual effect occur for the Bard's party members throughout the entire duration might give it a more impactful presence overall.

    The animations are looking great, though there is a sliding issue when using the (Shielding Dance) ability near the end.
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  • SlimurgicalSlimurgical Member
    Some of the visual effects seem to be very bright compared to others, some of them give me readability concerns.
  • ZettrexZettrex Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think bard is looking overall good, I would generally like to see more spell weaving in all classes.

    I would like to see a bard variant not purely musical something like enchanter.
  • PaiPlayerPaiPlayer Member
    edited July 31
    Considering the health pool size, isn't the HOT habilities from the Bard too low on healing? +6 heal ticks over an 1k+ health pool is nothing.
  • KaleviKalevi Member, Alpha Two
    How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
    Looking good. I'm a bit worried about the viability of certain skills in terms of mana usage and also the effect bloat. The systems shown were also a bit underwhelming.
    What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
    The instruments are an exciting system but that wasn't unfortunately shown. Bards seem to be more interesting clerics though, which I'm excited about

    Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
    Lord of the Rings Online's Minstrel class is a great example of a bard in terms of aesthetic. Most of the skills are similarly magical in nature but most of them involve actually playing an instrument. I feel as though the animations / sounds that currently use a harp / magical effects could have an animation and sound that is related to the style of instrument you are actually using.

    Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!

    The skills SFX should 100% be the same as the instrument you are playing, rather than harp+drum
  • RageskylarRageskylar Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The bard looks awesome for the stage it's in! My feedback is related to the mage class, the bard feels and looks bad ass to play, however the mage lacks that flair and fluidity. I honestly think the ball of lighting might need a rework as it doesn't feel impactful at all. Mage overall lacks that badass aura and abilities. Bard also seems to have waay more abilities and passives. Now I know it will be improved but just voicing it for all the future mage players, please make the mage class badass! You got it right with the fighter and bard, now please get mage to the same standards or better as those 2 classes.
  • KaleviKalevi Member, Alpha Two
    Kalevi wrote: »
    How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
    Looking good. I'm a bit worried about the viability of certain skills in terms of mana usage and also the effect bloat. The systems shown were also a bit underwhelming.
    What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
    The instruments are an exciting system but that wasn't unfortunately shown. Bards seem to be more interesting clerics though, which I'm excited about

    Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
    Lord of the Rings Online's Minstrel class is a great example of a bard in terms of aesthetic. Most of the skills are similarly magical in nature but most of them involve actually playing an instrument. I feel as though the animations / sounds that currently use a harp / magical effects could have an animation and sound that is related to the style of instrument you are actually using.

    Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!

    The skills SFX should 100% be the same as the instrument you are playing, rather than harp+drum

    Forgot to add: Ball lightning sounds and the spellbook attack sound sound really grating, especially in an environment with lots of sound already
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