I really liked it. You guys do tend to...uh...meander...a bit when discussing things, but I liked seeing the tooltips, ranges on things, and some discussion about how it would work with other classes.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
A couple of things.
1) I like healing and main healer in just about every game. I don't like not having at least SOME healing and support options. Support (buffs and the like) is my second favorite thing, but so many games just don't have it as a role, have support-type abilities sprinkled across lots of classes (especially DPS, which is my least favorite role), and/or they have the most watered down and boring "support" options possible, such as "use on CD/2 min burst windows for the party", which isn't support, it's just an extra personal CD you use on CD that happens to also affect other people.
2) I love healing but am more mixed on holy magics and organized religion, especially for fantasy gods I have no connection to, and borrowed power in general. I like knowledge based healers like medics, doctors, herbalists, and alchemists; and when possible, light or non magical in nature. FFXIV's Scholar, WoW's Restoration Druid, or Remnant 2's Medic and Alchemist classes, stuff like that is a little closer to what I enjoy. So I'm not really into Cleric's VFX being so over the top (Castigate and Censure and the Phoenix wings ability - love the dash, but it's so...over the top) and divine element. So Bard as a more knowledge (loremaster with knowledge of secret words of power) alternative to that I kind of like.
3) I like Bards in general. Thom from Wheel of Time with hidden daggers and a quick wit, Taliesin from the Pendragon Cycle with his powerful songs and knowledge of Druidic arts (he's ALSO how I think of an ideal druid), Cuoth/Coat from Name of the Wind with his broad knowledge of lore, song, sympathy, some true magic, and frightening quick mind. Just the archetype in general I've liked since I first played Baldur's Gate years ago. I especially like Bards that have the capacity to heal, like Lord of the Rings Online's Minstrel, in addition to their ability to act as a force multiplier, exhorting and powering up their friends.
4) I harbor some likely ill-fated hope that Bard will have at least one build that can be an actual healer. I'd like nothing more. But even if not, being able to provide solid off-heals and support as a useful member of a team working with the party/raid Cleric(s) sounds really fun to me. It almost seems like a Bard with focus on healing could play a lot like a WoW Resto Druid, using HoTs to lighten the load and smooth the damage curve of the party so the Holy Paladins and Holy Priests can focus more on the tanks and the Resto Shamans on burst healing needs. So weather as a healer with some support or a support with a decent bit of healing who can off-heal small parties or low danger content, I think Bard could be a neat fit. I guess if it isn't, I'll end up on Summoner (depending on if IT can be a full healer or not), or all else fails, Cleric as my least preferred but still probably "good enough" option... I'm also wondering about solo viability. Bard may just be group focused, and that's fine, though I'm not sure yet if I'll be doing solo wondering in the wilderness yet or find a guild/group before the game launches, which could have me lean towards Summoner or Cleric (not sure if they're more or less, though I think I read Cleric should have some solo viability and Summoner's jack of all trades nature should make it possible to do stuff solo or in small groups as well.)
5) Mechanically, I really like the idea of layering songs together and swapping to help the party with different situations, such as needing more healing, needing mana regeneration, or flipping to an attack posture when the party is ready to burst down a target.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I'd like to know more about the off-X roles. Like you mentioned Fighter having some off-tank potential and Bard off-healing. Is this in the sense of Vanilla WoW where Shaman, Druid, and Paladin healers could heal 5 man dungeon content but were support for the Holy Priest main healers in raids, or is this more like a FFXIV Dancer or Summoner who can toss out some situational healing but nothing else? The songs and dances SEEM like they're poised to be more capable of healing augments and traits. If it's ONLY for support...well, that's a concern, and I guess I'd have to look at Summoner (since it can...maybe...be a healer?) or Cleric...which, again, I'm not a fan of the aesthetics or VFX of.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Hard to say, since true support Bards - or a Support role in general - are so RARE. While I like Baldurs Gate 1's Bards, they were more Mages who could wear better armor, use crossbows, identify items, and...on rare occasions use the least useful Thief ability (I always found stealth and disarming traps, or at least spotting them, far more useful, and Bards being unable to do either, especially the traps one, made them ill suited as a replacement for the party Thief). I liked FFXIV's Bard in 2.0/ARR when they had a lot more situational support abilities - MP regen, TP regen, and could use the Healer level 3 Limit Break allowing for a partywide combat raise in critical situations even if both healers were KOed and the party didn't have any other reser...but most of that was taken away and the Job turned into an example of rotation with personal CDs that just happen to effect party members. Instead of bard songs that drained your MP when active and you'd swap between based on what they party needed, they went to rotational abilities used at specific timers to keep the CDs rolling.
I only played an EQ Bard briefly, and long ago, but I think they had a healing song, movement song, and the ability to layer some songs.
I like the idea of having party buffs that are somewhat short in duration so the rotation in a group is more about weaving your support abilities and just using filler damage instead of on a DPS rotation and just weaving random buffs on their CDs. And I like Bard being able to draw outside of the Holy Trinity/Quaternity lines and do some healing and a bit of damage based on the party needs. Jack of all trades Bards make for some of the best fun, especially when they have a lot of party buff and healing options and you can focus your skills and talents towards builds for whichever one your friends group needs.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I liked what I saw. Again, I'm just not sure how far we'll be able to flex them. But I really liked the dash, the songs and having two effects, and the dances looked really neat. The epics seemed cool, though we only got to see the damage one (I'm guessing another is for party support and another is for party healing?)
My only curiosity is will Bards be strictly group capable or will they have some solo effectiveness? I ask since I don't know yet if I'll be doing a lot solo or with people as I have no guild or anything at the present time and may spend some time just roaming the wilds. So there are still some questions I have there on builds and what other abilities they'll get that we haven't seen.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Hm...not really. They're a little over the top, but not like Cleric's. Yes yes, a lot of people think every bard or performer in history was an extrovert, but many were not. May great writers and lorekeepers were bookish types, and many a musician has been a solitary soul given to quiet contemplation. Some of the Bard stuff is a BIT gregarious, and it'd be nice to have an instrument/dance style that's a BIT more subdued. As one option. I like that there are different instruments, and it seems that could allow for different animation sets for player customization. This may be me just being too picky and I'd get over it, but I do think it'd be neat if there was at least one more subdued animation set/instrument. Maybe an ocarina or something and a set of dance steps a bit less...head banging? Yeah. : )
But, again, compared to some alternatives, it's okay. Just if you guys find time, would be neat... : )
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Well, that certainly seems long enough, so I'll not stray from the questions you asked, or I could go on all night, lol
I like the playstyle, looks fun! My criticism is specifically with the aesthetic.
I'd prefer the Bard get to choose their instrument (instead of the floating spellbook)
Drums, Flute, Lute, Horn, etc. The spellbook animation could still be used if a bard wanted to be a tale-weaver form of entertainer instead of a musician style bard.
I think the personalization helps with identity.
Would be extra-cool if bards had access to sound paks and could tie sounds to spells at their choosing, and then link them together to compose their own songs. People who played with them regularly could learn their unique songs and know what they were doing by the tune.
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Yokai TheaterMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So after listening to Office Hours discussing the Bard review here are my thoughts.
I believe College of Swords Bard and Full Healer Role Bard should be options for the Main role or secondary archtype.
I agree that a balance of complexity, finding that goldilocks effect, for the skill tree in terms of role building is a strong priority.
The utility of the bard needs to be strong. Whether thats a strum of the lute sending out a shockwave of sound dealing dmg and pushing enemies back in a cone, adding debuffs like slowing the enemies, lowering their accuracy, or attack speed. These are great utilities that don't show direct impact but are impactful.
I definitely want bards to have the simple ability to shoot a magical note towards an enemy dealing dmg.
I didn't like how the bard skill tree separated song and dance, it kind of made it feel like two separate skill trees, instead of just picking playstyle.
If mana regen is such a problem and only bards can fix that problem then it kind of forces small groups to play a bard even if they don't want to. Make it impactful, but not the catch all be all.
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KnifepartyMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In regards to the current stance on Shielding (when looking at Shielding Dance) in particular. Temporary Health is not a shield, it is a completely separate effect. The reason shields have an visual feedback in most games is because its necessary in understanding of temporary effects (that fade with time).
The temporary health will just come across as a fattening of the health bar that is not discernable from a standard health bar (and is kinda unfun).
If done right, my favorite classes to play are the pure support classes. From what I saw in the showcase, the Bard is on the right track. I have mana regen, heal over time, damage mitigation, and debuffs/damage options. For a basic support toolkit the fundamentals I would want are there. I like the direction, but have some suggestions in the follow-on questions.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
A proper support should be a master-of-none, utility-heavy, and have a situational playstyle where the player must adapt in various stages:
1. Prior to the encounter, the bard needs the right gear and the right skills for their build to be viable for that content.
2. During the encounter, the bard should monitor active needs of the group, aid the healer/tank in recovery from mistakes (temporary off-healing, or battle res). These utilities should be meaningful but very limited. The bard is not the healer, the tank, or the DPS, and should never replace these roles. What excites me is a bard that has a potent CD (such as battle res, a big HoT, a large shield etc.) that can only be used once every 10 minutes or so. I can save the day to prevent a wipe/reset, but I must use it wisely and only when absolutely necessary. When the group is healthy, I should be using my utility to do interrupts, debuffs, and CC to set up my tank and DPS to maximize their roles.
3. After the encounter, the bard should speed up the recovery or travel time to the next encounter. I would love to play a soothing melody that is only available out of combat, and it increases my party's mana/health regen so we can move on to the next thing.
At every stage of this encounter I am paying attention and adapting to the needs of my group, and have a very limited ability to help my friends rebound from a mistake in a way that makes them grateful for having a bard around. Not just because of my buffs, but because of all the other utility I can bring in the form of interrupt, movement, debuffs, and CC.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I would like to see broader utility with the bard. When playing a support, things can be very boring if your only job is to weave between different buff abilities and do mediocre damage. There are some deeply impactful utilities that could make the bard much more fun during encounters:
- AoE Interrupts
- ST Interrupts
- CC : Sleep, Stun, Fear
- Debuff: Slow, Weaken, Disorient/Confuse
- Partner Bonding: Allow the bard to bond with 1 player in their party. The nature of this bond will depend on what skills they've chosen to invest in, and should match the pillars already in place with the melodies. For example, bonding with a healer would give that healer +10% mana regen. Bonding with a DPS could increase their attack speed. Bonding with a tank could give them a passive health regen, or additional armor.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
The Captain in Lord of the Rings Online. They specialized in buffs, and those buffs were more potent depending on what they chose to talent into. They could talent into healing (health/mana regen), damage (debuffs/damage buffs to allies), or tank (health buffs/mitigation). They were also viable off-healers and off-tanks in a pinch. They could only maintain it for short bursts, but it was clutch if the tank went down or a healer was behind/dead. The Captain literally swooped in with a battle res, a massive HoT with a 10min CD, or a taunt with a long personal defensive CD. They could only save the day once every 10 minutes, but it really made them as a support FEEL like a support. Being there exactly when the group needs you to be, and then quietly going back to the background once the group is stabilized.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I like for weaving to be a natural part of the Bard's rotation, but not too much. The WORST CASE scenario for me is the Weaver Elementalist in GW2, which is literally described as "playing the piano," and not in a good way. To play it optimally is exhausting. However, core elementalist in GW2 is a very good example of a middle ground. Swapping between the elements is comparable to changing melodies for the Bard, and you get access to new abilities based on the element you are attuned to. I don't think it needs to go that far for the Bard, but from a weaving standpoint it is an example of a smooth weaving experience that is medium difficulty to master and still makes the class feel adaptable/versatile on the fly.
I absolutely love the combat play that was showcased with the Bard jumping into melee for a Dance, and then jumping back out to ranged for their melodies. It makes the Bard feel very involved by weaving in and out of melee to provide a shield to the tank, do an interrupt, and then hanging out with ranged away from cleave damage. You're actively engaged with the encounter.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Aesthetically I would like to see a simplified, but hopefully more iconic way of showing the shifts between melodies, dances, and sagas.
Melodies - The character is surrounded by musical notes that change color or intensity while weaving through the different melodies.
Dances - To go along with the drum theme, perhaps a pulsing ring of light, or pulsing orbs (like disco balls!) around the player.
Sagas - Have pages floating around the character, like from a book or sheet music.
This would also allow some counter-play in PvP, where if players learn to recognize the different visual effects around the bard then they can deduce what kind of support build they're leaning into.
*General Bard Discusion - How do you feel about the direction the Bard archetype is moving in, based on what was shared during the July 2024 Development Update? What did you enjoy and what do you think should be done differently?The overall direction of Bard is going *mostly* in a positive and correct way. The specific focus on the bard not being just a healer/buff bot/song singer but rather an enabler of others by inspiring action and emotion. I particularly like that not all bardic elements are tied to singing or playing an instrument. I feel that during the July development update, everything went well except a common complaint I have for many of the recent archetype reveals is that we should see them using at least 2 different weapons. If every archetype is truly meant to be able to use each weapon, then we need to see it to get a general vibe, even if just for a moment. I understand that a part of the showcase was to also show off the spell book, but it was incomplete and had no skill tree; it ultimately limited the potential to see another aspect of the bard by sticking to just the book. The same gripe was had for the ranger and fighter showcase.
Bard Ability Discussion - What do you like, and what concerns do you have about the look and feel of the abilities, such as melodies and dances, shared for the Bard Archetype? NOTE: We’re not looking for balance feedback at this time. The look and feel are amazing overall and I am sure will only get more refined and polished with time. I'd say most of my opinions are balanced based, so I will try be brief here and not go into them until the necessary time. General feedback:I love a lot of the comedy and taunting aspects of bards kit, but I would hope for more variety and "seriousness" to become options for those wanting to play a more dirge singer or the 'Dance Macabre' type bard that isn't comical with its spells. Melodies: These seem great and my only note is definitely to add more options and such, perhaps even limitations so people can mix and match to make a more unique symphony catering to their playstyle. Dances:I really liked the feel of many of the dances, however I do feel a few could do with some more systematic looks into. This is borderline a balance feedback, but I think Shielding Dance in particular should be made to work in reverse. Healing every second and ending on a shield, feels weird when its trademark is the shield. It should periodically shield and then ending with either a heal, or a large healing received buff to work with the cleric in an, "I'm buying you time!" type of synergy. Songs: I think the songs are for the most part fine. I do think Chilling Lament will need more support for it being the only frost damage in your kit. I also feel that the spirit damage on Dark Lullaby is an excellent feature and I would love if all sources of spirit damage share the same synergy of not waking sleeping targets to allow for funny teamwork combos. Sagas: I think Sagas are an amazing idea and are in the right direction, but could do with expanding and making even greater and bigger. The amount commitment to set them up should be rewarded.
Archetype Skill Tree - What are your thoughts regarding the current direction of the archetype skill tree progression? How do you feel about Crescendo, Counterpoint, and other choices that change the way you play a Bard?My feedback for this is rather simple. I think the skill tree is heading in a great direction but there needs to be more divides between tiers especially as more skills are added. Bard Class Fantasy - What makes a Bard feel like a Bard to you? What aspects of Bards from other games or popular media would you like to see in Ashes of Creation?To me, personally, Bard is the fantasy of being an entertainer who enhances the emotions and enables others through inspiration. Whether by songs, dashing feats of bravery and foolishness, witty remarks, poetry, etc. The bard is the presence that isn't always fully felt, until it is missing. A Bard can be a lot of different things, whether its a scholar of magic, seeking out ancient Words of Power that ushered into creation before magic was truly discovered. It could be a dashing musician performing for the benefit of those around them. They could be a gladiatorial, Battleborn or swashbuckling fighter, chanting skaldic hymns or sea shanties and insults; inspiring allies with their actions. Or perhaps even a dark and mysterious figure orchestrating scenes and pulling strings in politics like puppets in a show. The very essence of what makes a Bard, a Bard is the fact that nothing "truly" is Bard except for the larger than life approach to their passions and the thrill of their craft. Because of this, bard truly is the "more is more" type of class who needs a ton of different varieties and options to choose from. SkillPoints matter just as much to a Bard player's theme as they do their competitive capability. Anyone and anything can be a bard, if it invokes the actions of others.
Inspiration from other games and media I'd draw reference to is the DnD Bard with how its colleges are essentially what could be skill tree focuses that allow a player to make their bard more unique and focus on enabling the actions of certain areas. Are you a control mage type bard supporting from a distance bolstering your healers and casters? Are you a dashing scoundrel dancing and slashing your way through crowds mesmerizing foes and challenging your fighters to exceed their limits and break through? Or are you a songstress whose songs and melodies can be heard throughout the battlefield?
Points from the Office Hours chats-
- Afk 'Tavern' Buffs: If there is one thing I beg that is listened to from the walls of text I type, its that out of action buffs a bard (or any archetype) simply applies for x (usually were like 30) minutes to strangers and then awaits for their return or the next set...should never return to MMOs. This is such a 2000 esque MMO trend and encourages several major issues. The first is skill bloat. These are either a must-buy mandatory for all Bards to grant to people or self in various manners and take away SkillPoints that could have been spent on actual identify defining bardic skills like swordplay/songs/etc. The next issue is if they're strong, it promotes creating alts and multiboxing to keep buffing yourself when out questing and not wanting to return to town...we see this with the original iRose online MMO with how you *had* to level a Cleric alt first to grant campfire buffs and stat raises to competitively kill mobs to lvl fast enough to make the game playable. From there, you'd then level your main account while buffing it. This was so bad even iRose corrected it with their later update of the game in RoseEvo but ultimately made them mediocre and not worth bothering with. Next, they're also very lazy and create an unhealthy gameplay loop. We shouldn't be forcing players to return to a location simply to reapply buffs and it would make it almost mandatory to add easy teleporting between places. Ashes of Creation has a huge map and we should want the players to be out in it. Finally, for the Bard themselves it pushes them into inactive tasks which take away from other features. Why would we want a Bard simply sat in town buffing when they could be exploring the world, doing quests for cool stories to tell there friends/towns, gathering and crafting, getting into shenanigans. A bard, and quite frankly any other archetype should live that fantasy actively out in the world, not lurking to buff the next person.A bard should be living in the world, not taverns.
Also, It was brought up about having a FFXIV style bard custom music system. A bard isn’t just a musician in Ashes of Creation though. While the FFXIV song playing is great, it opens a bias rabbit hole. Will I get to do poetry and special custom dances too? In addition, it's a simple add on to account for the fact that FFXIV Bard is literally only a Bard by name and the fact it has musical themes to its BOW AND ARROW attacks. It's a game design constraint, something ashes of creation doesn't have. I think this is something that should be heavily debated and delivered carefully and without holding any weight into the Bard itself. If Bard is to suffer due to this feature taking time to make, it shouldn't be a thing.Ultimately, will focusing resources on this take away from making Bard the best Bard you could ever Bard? If so, don't.
-Core Pillars of Bard and "Keeping it simple". This is a difficult one as I understand truly the logic behind what the speaker was saying, however Bard is very much the opposite of "keeping it simple" and the pillars of what makes a Bard, Bard is the diversity in being able to fulfill any role in a party by bolstering the role of the others so the gap they cover isn't as big. It was said to have "four pillars, mana battery, healing amp, damage amp, and control mage" and while this is solid and definitely repertoire for a bard, it isn't the only thing. Not all Bards could be called "mages" even if they use some magic elements as they draw on the power of the world through invoking actions, ancient words, songs, etc. In addition, what of Swords Bards, Skalds, Swashbucklers, FFXIV Bard clones with a bow and harp? A bard doesn't have to part time as a mage which is the biggest issue with the statement. However from its supporting side, I very much agree with the above points of healing amp(over actual healing) either by increasing total heal received, or shielding to buy time for the cleric to heal people, damage amp either via magical feats, or dashing displays of martial prowess.
Two final Points I'd appreciate addressing: To add on to what I said in the first question of the post about archetypes using all weapons. Are we to expect the typical troupe of rangers MUST use bows, fighters MUST be 2handed, and bards to be a magic debuff mage with aura songs? I really would appreciate backing the statements we have heard Steven make regarding every archetype being able to be proficient with any weapon. This is huge for bards, as many people, myself included, are drawn to the DnD sword bard swashbuckler fantasy. Being that ever tricky frontliner who uses their wit to demoralize foes and create flashy openings for allies.
Finally, this is regarding truly what "enabling others to do there roles" is which is ultimately the defining core identify of how a bard supports the party. I feel there is too much direct healing in Bard's kit as of current. Between your melody, songs, dances, and gambit, you are arguably taking away the Cleric's needs to press buttons and act rather than supporting them in doing so. There is a very fine line between helping/enabling and simply taking away their importance. I'd personally suggest changing a few of the spells to shields and further focusing in on the "increased healing received" angle. A bard is essentially amplifying what already was capable within the party, buying time with barriers and giving the cleric or dps that extra juice they need on their tools. Alternatively, if Bard is moonlighting as a healer or dps, they should be coming with the added risk of being slightly weaker at that role but also bringing a ton other fun tools that a standard healer or dps can't bring, like mana regen and nifty CC. Bard shouldn't get revives like Cleric, so that if they are your primary healer it is very much expected that the party can and must perform to a higher level than if they had just brought a cleric. There should always be risk to the reward.
Thank you for all your dedication and hard work in making such an ambitious, yet amazing and passionate game. I hope my rambles are of some use to the development and I look forward to Alpha2.
Hi! I realize I'm not meeting the Aug 16th deadline, but I still want to share my thoughts here in the official feedback thread. If you take the time to read the whole thing, thanks! Otherwise, there's a quick TL;DR at the end.
I'm really liking how a bard looks! It's by far my favorite of the classes. I thought I wanted to go Ranger, but Bard is looking really fun!
I'll start with observations and assumptions.
Observations from the video:
The spellbook appears to have roughly a 5 second attack rotation and hits 4 times with 2 of those hits being combo finishers. This can be seen in the Youtube video starting at 1:24:22. Bard starts [Cheerful Melody], and then starts attacking with the spellbook. Purple flashes twice from the spellbook, dealing 21 and 23 damage. Then the spellbook crits for 45 and Bard does 101 healing via [Resonant Weapon], then +20 appears twice (double hit? Visual glitch?) and another +101 healing is done through [Resonant Weapon] indicating a second combo finisher.
It appears that the crit rate of healing done through [Resonant Weapon] is independent of whether the weapon attack crits. In the video, I saw both cases: one where the heal crit but the combo finisher didn't, and the opposite where the combo finisher was a crit but the heal wasn't. Unclear if this is intentional. Just an observation.
Assumptions:
Spellbook has roughly a 5 second rotation with 2 combo finishers (2 normal hits, then 2 combo finishers).
Magical Power is 33.4 as shown in the video.
Calculations are generally not rounded and only show 1 decimal place. One exception is on [Pensive Melody].
[Resonant Weapon] chosen as a talent. Would be silly not to.
Weapon rotations are always executed in full, no partial executions or interruptions.
Melodies are off the global cooldown and therefore allows full uptime of the buff. In other words, no time is lost between the start of the melody and the start of the weapon attack sequence allowing 4 full weapon cycles per 20 second melody.
The only abilities being used are melodies and weapon attacks. Any other abilities used would lower the effects of [Resonant Weapon] triggers, but not the passive effects. Therefore, [Resonant Weapon] trigger effects listed can be considered "best case" and are by no means meant to be interpreted as expected during normal play.
The above image includes HP and MP numbers taken from the livestream. These numbers are used when calculating time to fully restore HP/MP values for the group as well as the Bard (Bucky).
One other assumption is DPS numbers by the group. Using numbers from the livestream, average group DPS was calculated at 159.36 rounded up to 160. Average player DPS was then calculated as 160/6 = 26.7 DPS. On the Youtube video of the livestream, mobs were DPSed down from timestamps 2:03:37 to 2:05:37. There were 4 mobs alive around that point: Taskmaster (HP = 10,538), Thrall 1 (HP = 818), Thrall 2 (HP = 818), and Outhouser (HP = 7682). That's 19,856 damage done over 2 minutes which equates to 165.5 DPS as a group. That also assumes no healing was done by the mobs during that time, which would only increase the required DPS. Then, from 2:05:50 to 2:06:24, the Taskmaster was defeated with only single target DPS after he resurrected with 4685 HP, resulting in an average 137.8 DPS over 34 seconds. Combining those two events, (24,541 HP / 154 seconds) = 159.36 DPS. I rounded up to 160 for the analysis and player DPS is considered equal between players.
[Cheerful Melody]
[Cheerful Melody] : Nearby party members gain [Cheerful Melody]: Healing received increased by 20%. Also lightly heals for 15% healing every 2 seconds. [Resonant Weapon] : Heal a nearby injured ally for 250% healing. Favors yourself and party members.
[Cheerful Melody] would restore [15%(33.4)(1+20%)]= 6.0 health every 2 seconds, or 3 HPS (heals per second) per party member. Yes, the passive 15% healing also benefits from the 20% increased healing! [Resonant Weapon] would restore [250%(33.4)(1+20%)]= 100.2 health per combo finisher. With a spellbook capable of hitting two combo finishers within a rough 5 second attack window, that's approximately [100.2 * 2 / 5] = 40.4 HPS. (The livestream shows healing of 101 from triggers, so rounding is happening somewhere).
The table below highlights potential HPS.
The average time to refill an entire party's health = 4575 HP / 58.4 HPS = 78.3 seconds
The average time to refill your health while solo = 569 HP / 43.4 HPS = 13.1 seconds
The [Resonant Weapon] effect is MUCH stronger than the passive benefit of the melody. The melody is passive, requires no global cooldowns, and heals outside of combat. [Resonant Weapon] triggers require constant weapon attacks + combo finishers, allows no wiggle room for other "on cooldown" abilities, and has no benefit outside of combat.
Overall, I think [Cheerful Melody] is best in small group and solo situations. While the [Resonant Weapon] effect is very strong, it doesn't scale at all in group play (OK, maybe a little if you're getting magical attack power buffs or attack speed buffs from somewhere). Also, chain casting weapon attacks locks out the rest of the Bard's toolkit and most of a bard's toolkit is built to support the group. With other healing cooldowns available, the strongest part of [Cheerful Melody], the [Resonant Weapon] triggers, may not get realized.
Thoughts:
The healing portion of [Resonant Weapon] is triggered from combo finishers from weapons, but is powered by magical attack power. This means that given two magical weapons with similar magical power, the faster weapon could simply be better for [Resonant Weapon] trigger effects in every scenario. The amount healed by [Resonant Weapon] isn't determined by how strong the combo finisher actually is, just only that it happens. Players will certainly look for cheese tactics where weapons hit rapidly.
For example, imagine if there was a magical bow (to grant magical attack power) with a combo finisher that hit rapidly (say 5 times) but only did very minor damage. The healing done through [Resonant Weapon] triggers would still be 101 per hit, but it would heal 5 times. Compare that to a spellbook that hits 2 times. I think 505 healing (101 healing * 5 triggers) with a bow > 202 healing with a spellbook. This kind of thing may not ever be possible, but I think it's better to point out the possibility now rather than later.
However, here's the same scenario but only slightly more degenerate. Imagine if it wasn't a magical bow, it was a physical attack power bow, but STILL provided better [Resonant Weapon] healing simply because it offered more combo finishers per rotation. Imagine if a non-caster weapon was better for healing than a caster weapon MEANT for healing. Bards should be able to use every weapon just like every other class, but at the same time we need to make the weapon benefits provided to the Bard are balanced.
Finally, the [Resonant Weapon] trigger is a single heal to a random party member. There isn't a compelling reason to chain together weapon attacks instead of using the Bard's other abilities. It is single target damage with single hit heals applied to random party members. And that's OK! It can be the default thing to do when nothing else is going on and the party is doing fine.
Recommendations:
Combo finishers with weapons need to be taken into account here. Maybe have an extra modifier for [Resonant Weapon] triggers where it takes into account the damage of the combo finisher relative to the weapon itself? For example, slower weapons with large hitting combo finishers could heal for more, but at a slower pace because it's a slower weapon. Faster weapons with softer hitting combo finishers could heal for less, but at a much quicker pace.
The [Resonant Weapon] single heal effect seems too strong for solo play and unreliable in group play. Maybe instead of a strong single target heal it could be a weaker heal, but AoE? It would force a solo player to be more mindful (as they might not be able to just auto attack and zone out) and would increase the AoE healing power of the Bard during group play (because, you know, group support role). Spending 5 seconds for a fully cycled weapon chain to attack a single target and throw out two random single heals on party members, to me, doesn't flow very well. Maybe it's the randomness of where the heals land that leaves me wanting more. Who knows, I may be in the minority on this one.
[Pensive Melody]
Ah, the problem child. I think most players debating rolling a Bard are worried about becoming nothing more than a mana battery. I'm sure some players just won't care one way or another, but it's a concern.
[Pensive Melody] : Nearby party members gain [Pensive Melody]: Restores mana equal to 1 + 1% magical power every 2 seconds. [Resonant Weapon] : Restore mana to a nearby ally in need equal to 25 + 5% magical power. Favors yourself and party members.
[Pensive Melody] would restore [1 + 1%(33.4)] = 1.3 mana every 2 seconds. [Resonant Weapon] would restore [25 + 5%(33.4)]= 26.67 mana per combo finisher.
In a full 20 second [Pensive Melody] cycle, total potential mana restored = (20 seconds)(# party members)(MPS per party member) + (27 mana per combo finisher)(2 combo finishers / 5 second weapon rotation)
Now in the above graphic, I went ahead and rounded up the 1.3 mana given to 2, as that's what happened in the video. The same is true with the mana regen via [Resonant Weapon] triggers, I rounded up to 27. So in effect, I'm actually grossly overestimating the passive mana regen. In a full group, instead of 6 MPS it's actually 4 MPS without rounding. So even with some generous rounding up on the passive mana regen, it pales in overall group benefit compared to just spamming weapon attacks, and that's the point.
Average time to refill entire party = 2894 MP / 16.8 MPS = 172.3 seconds, or just under three minutes.
Average time to refill bard's MP = 457 MP / 11.8 MPS = 38.7 seconds (Bucky was the Bard in the video, see table near the top).
The calculations are just a rough estimate, but even assuming nonstop weapon attacks and 2 [Resonant Weapon] triggers every 5 seconds, it would still take almost 3 minutes to fully regen a party from 0 to full. It was clear that the group in the video was struggling with mana during some really heavy pulls, but the Bard wasn't fully utilizing [Resonant Weapon] triggers. The longer that fights drag on, the more important mana conservation and regeneration becomes. Bards may not like it but being a mana battery may be the single most important group benefit they provide, both PVE and PVP.
In a raid, it is a very real possibility that a Bard could be asked to keep [Pensive Melody] up at all times and only do weapon attacks. If the group is simply that starved for mana, they could very well try that and if it works, well.. expect it to be meta.
A well balanced PVP encounter could also be tilted in your favor with a Bard. Again, the longer the fights drag out then the more benefit a Bard brings with mana regen. If you outlast another group in PVP, that very well might be the difference between victory and defeat.
Thoughts:
The ratio of passive regen of [Pensive Melody] vs trigger regen of [Resonant Weapon] is too skewed in favor of [Resonant Weapon]. If the most mana regen comes from a Bard using weapon attacks, they could very well be expected to do that and only that. A rare case, I might imagine, but still possible. The more the regen is skewed towards [Resonant Weapon] triggers, the more a Bard would be pressured to only do weapon attacks and mindless fish for combo finishers.
Recommendations:
[Resonant Weapon] regen could be changed to only affect the Bard. If that happens, groups are only receiving mana regen passively so as long as the melody is active, the Bard is free to use their toolkit to support the group in other ways. Bards would never be pressured to turn into a mindless mana bot using only weapon attacks for the mana regen it would provide to the group. The Bard would still be incentivized to perform combo finishers to regen their own mana when needed.
If [Resonant Weapon] regen is changed to only affect the bard, then passive regen to the party could be adjusted accordingly (most likely up). It also means you can easily adjust either one without affecting the other.
[Cathartic Melody]
[Cathartic Melody] : Nearby party members gain [Cathartic Melody]: Your attacks have a 25% chance to heal yourself for 50% of the damage done. [Resonant Weapon] : Deal bonus (75%) bleed damage and apply Wounded to each target hit.
[Cathartic Melody]'s expected value of healing = (25% proc chance)(50% of damage done) = 12.5% of DPS converted to healing on average in the long run. [Resonant Weapon] applies 75% bleed and Wounded.
There's an issue here, and that's DoT effects. It's unclear right away whether DoT effects will trigger [Cathartic Melody]. In some cases it could be straightforward, but in other cases not. For example, what if bleed effects stack onto a mob? Would the system keep track of how many bleeds belong to each party member, separate them all out, and heal accordingly? I think it's much more likely that [Cathartic Melody] will only trigger on direct damage. If that's true, [Cathartic Melody] loses value the more that group DPS is derived from DoTs.
For the sake of argument, let's assume ALL damage benefits from [Cathartic Melody]. In a full 20s [Cathartic Melody], total possible health restored = (20 seconds)(# party members)(Average Player DPS)(12.5%)
As a reminder, the GROUP average DPS was calculated at around 160 DPS. In a 6 player group, that comes out to 26.6 DPS. Mileage will vary, of course, but per player the average HPS is (160 DPS)(12.5%) / (6 players) = 3.3 HPS
Average time to refill an entire party's health = 4575 HP / 19.9 HPS = 229.7 seconds, or 3 minutes 50 seconds.
Average time to refill the Bard's health = 457 HP / 3.3 HPS = 137.7 seconds, or 2 minutes 18 seconds.
Now right away, that may not seem like very much, but here's the thing; it's all passive! Compared to the passive regen from [Cheerful Melody], it's almost identical. That's good news because you can get roughly the same passive healing as [Cheerful Melody] but squeeze a little more DPS out of your weapon attacks through [Resonant Weapon] triggers. Or, if melody weaving, you can double up on the passive healing by running [Cathartic Melody] alongside [Cheerful Melody].
The downside here is that the numbers above assume 100% of damage is convertible through [Cathartic Melody]. If it turns out to be the case that DoT damage does not translate into passive healing, then the actual HPS numbers would be lower.
However, there's one other upside; the healing via [Cathartic Melody] is contingent on the individual DPS of the members of the group, and has nothing to do with the Bard. That means, theoretically, a level 10 Bard could provide the same passive HPS through [Cathartic Melody] as a level 50 Bard.
Thoughts:
The passive leech healing could very well out-scale the passive healing via [Cheerful Melody] when the group is doing consistent DPS. However, it requires the group to... well... be doing DPS. If there is downtime, or players are stunned, or not attacking, or generally just standing around doing anything BUT attacking then the passive leech provided by [Cathartic Melody] will drop off or simply be nonexistent. That makes the passive healing via [Cheerful Melody] very consistent and the leech via [Cathartic Melody] very situational. I think there's great risk/reward with this melody and all it needs is proper tuning.
[Menacing Melody]
[Menacing Melody] : Nearby enemies take 10% increased damage. [Resonant Weapon] : Deal bonus (75%) arcane damage and apply Weakened to each target hit.
This one is pretty straight forward. It's a straight up DPS increase, your [Resonant Weapon] deals extra damage on combo finishers, and applies Weakened. This one will likely feel good in any situation. It's unclear yet exactly what Weakened will do.
Based on earlier calculations, the group was dealing approximately 160 DPS or 26.7 DPS per player.
If a player does 26.7 DPS, the benefit per person from [Menacing Melody] is 2.67 DPS. In addition, we need to calculate the benefit of [Resonant Weapon] as it produces an extra (75%) arcane damage on a combo finisher and it also benefits from [Menacing Melody]. That's 2 [Resonant Weapon] triggers for 33.4(75%) = 25.1 damage each and equates roughly 10.0 DPS before [Menacing Melody] buffs it an extra 10%. In this example, yes, we are assuming that a Bard's DPS was 26.7 before [Menacing Melody] and there's no opportunity cost involved with applying it. Relax!
So the group DPS scales up per player, however the DPS from [Resonant Weapon] does not, as the Bard is the only one triggering it. The extra DPS from the [Resonant Weapon] trigger + the extra 10% from the passive totals to the final column.
Thoughts:
It's not a great amount of DPS, however it is all passive and that feels pretty good. [Menacing Melody] gets better as your group DPS gets better. The DPS numbers pulled from the video were generally from single target damage, so imagine how large a benefit the group could derive from large AoE pulls.
Also, [Menacing Melody] can be cycled on during large burst windows and then cycled off during DPS downtime or if HP/MP regen is more urgent. The [Resonant Weapon] effect of applying Weakened will need to be explored. All in all I think it's a good melody just needs proper tuning.
[Epic Melody]
The problem child you may not even know existed, in my opinion.
[Epic Melody] : Nearby party members gain [Epic Melody]: movement speed increased by 20%. [Resonant Weapon] : Dispel up to 1 root and apply [Pep] to each party member. [Pep] : A momentary 20% movement speed boost. Lasts 5 seconds.
I'm assuming that the 20% movement speed from [Epic Melody] and [Pep] stack, otherwise what would be the point of [Resonant Weapon] triggering [Pep]?
PVE: Raid encounters and "standing in the bad". I think we're all aware how movement speed can be the difference between being alive or getting 1-shot by mechanics. Extra movement speed is like insurance on the slow reaction speeds of players.
SOLO: Need to escape a sticky situation? Use [Get Off The Stage] to knock back melee enemies and snare them, cast [Epic Melody] off global cooldown for instant 20% movement speed, hit [Flourish] for another 20% movement speed, and then hit the road! You can either re-engage from a distance and keep yourself out of range by chaining weapon attacks and constantly dispelling roots on yourself and reapplying [Pep] for permanent 40% extra movement speed, or you can simply run away. They won't catch you.
SOLO: 40% permanent movement speed as long as you do a combo finisher at least once every 5 seconds. Talk about kiting possibilities. Bards could probably solo tank a lot of tough mobs as long as they paid attention and never let the enemy get close enough. And that's true in PVE as well as PVP. If you're an [Epic Melody] bard and can give yourself almost permanent 40% movement speed while attacking and dispelling roots, then you should never lose a 1v1 against a melee.
Group PVE: How about a tank with 40% extra movement speed? They could round up a big group of mobs and perma-kite them with that much extra movement speed. As long as they kept aggro, the rest of the group could DPS and the group may never even take damage. If aggro becomes an issue, a Bard can cast [Misdirection] to reduce threat on nearby party members.
There's so much cheese possible, I can't wait to see the types of shenanigans other players can come up with.
Dances
Not a lot to say on the dances. I do have some concerns. Can dances be canceled by casting/using other abilities or are we animation locked?
[Shielding Dance] is a very quick, strong, group heal. The strongest part is up front, the shield. The shield is for 400% healing and lasts 15 seconds, while over the course of the cast party members are healed for 50% per stomp for a total of 200%. If the group is full health and I just want to apply the shield, I would like to animation cancel after the first stomp so that after the shield is applied, I can go on to use other abilities.
[Nimble Dance] is fairly straightforward, good for a quick boost of speed for the group with [Pep]
[Mesmerizing Dance] is an awfully short cast time for a group wide Incapacitate. For something that hits in an AoE, I might expect the cast or "wind up" to be a bit longer to give other players a chance to interrupt it.
[Maddening Dance] Straight forward AoE. I might like to see this as a channel, though, so that Bard's have some kind of consistent AoE ability. [Maddening Dance] lasts 4 seconds but has a 25 second cooldown. The only other ability that hits multiple targets that I see is [Discordance] and it also has a 25 second cooldown. Bard's provide awesome AoE buffs, but appear that they might suffer in AoE dps.
Songs
[Lovely Serenade] is the Bard's strong ST heal. 3.5 second cast and heals 150% per second, so does it hit 3 or 4 times? I'm assuming 3, and at 3.5 second [Glee] is applied so let's say 450% healing. Just an assumption. [Glee] heals for 60% every 2 seconds for 15 seconds. So, say, 7 sticks for an extra 420% healing. That's at least 870% healing for 25 mana and a 3.5 second commitment. This is very strong and targeted, as compared to a possible 500% healing from [Resonant Weapon] procs that are applied to a random party member.
[Anthem of Alacrity] is like Power Infusion from WoW on steroids. Might be too good. I don't like the relatively short cooldown and short duration. We'll likely be asked to keep this on cooldown and applied to the best DPS in the group (or Cleric in healing checks) and will be a big mana drain.
[Chilling Lament] seems out of place. I'm all for more abilities and ways to deal damage, but I think the actual chilled effect and bonus damage to Frozen targets just seems out of place. I don't see anything wrong with it, I just think it seems out of place.
[Dark Lullaby] is great. I love the interaction between this and [Mesmerizing Dance]. A keeper.
[Discordance] is also great. I like the cleave it provides. I wonder how much the damage is reduced per bounce.
Stories
One thing that may seem out of place at first glance is that one might expect [Conflict] and [Chaos] to both be physical or magic. The same with [Destiny] and [Wonder]. Instead, one of them is physical and the other magic. Meanwhile for [Triumph] and [Joy], they both affect health which seems normal.
I believe this is intentional so that if I wanted to cast the saga [The Myth of Creation] which requires one of each color or theme, I can do so with 2 magic stories and 1 health story or go with 2 physical stories and 1 health story and not be forced to simply rely on 1 physical, 1 magic, and 1 health. I like it.
Saga
Stories share a 30 second cooldown with each other so you can only have 1 active at a time. Stories also grant themes, which are used to power your Sagas. When starting from scratch with no themes, it takes 60 seconds to prepare your first saga. (Cast 1st story at time 0, 2nd story at time 30, 3rd story at time 60, and then cast your Saga immediately after gaining your 3rd theme at roughly time 61 or so). In the livestream, it's clear to see that you are able to cast your Saga as soon as you have three themes. The icon on the action bar was clearly lit up and active.
Each theme appears to provide a buff to the Bard as long as the theme remains. For example, the red theme in the livestream or [Tragedy] provides a 5% damage increase. Since you stack these themes in order to charge your Saga, theoretically the buffs would stack as well? That's my assumption.
So here's the question... is it actually WORTH it to cast the Saga at the cost of removing the buffs that the stacked themes are providing? Let's take a look!
Assumptions:
In the livestream, magical power was 33.4 and average DPS was calculated at 26.7. For sake of argument, I am going to assume that a Bard could possibly do 33.4 DPS if they focused SOLELY on maximizing their DPS. I chose to do this because I need a clear way to compare a Bard's overall damage to that done by the Saga. The benefit of the theme is 5% damage, not just 5% magic attack or 5% physical attack. It's all damage. By setting the average DPS to 33.4, it's more easily comparable to the damage of a Saga which is based on just magical attack power. Therefore, I can just compare the % numbers between the themes and Saga damage.
It's also important to maximize the potential of a Bard's DPS, so choosing 33.4 which is notably higher than the average 26.7 calculated earlier seems appropriate and not too far fetched.
The one saga available at the moment, [The Apocalpyse], does 150% damage and 30% burning damage over 8 seconds for a total of 340%(magical attack power) damage assuming all damage is dealt as expected.
I will also assume that you start the fight with 0 themes, or from scratch. I believe this is best case scenario for not casting Sagas as the Bard will benefit from the passive benefits of themes in all three scenarios for at least 60 seconds. Starting a fight with themes means up to 1 more Saga cast per fight and only makes the case for casting Sagas better.
I will consider three different scenarios:
Scenario 1 : Cast saga at time 60 (or as soon as possible from scratch) and then every 90 seconds afterward.
Scenario 2 : Cast saga at time 90 and then every 90 seconds afterward.
Scenario 3 : Never casting a Saga and keeping 3 themes and maximizing possible theme buffs.
With the best case scenario, it appears that it is only better to hold your themes and not cast a Saga in very specific windows, and that's while assuming maximized personal DPS. It doesn't look like the DPS gain is really worth it, and holding your themes will likely never be recommended and that's a good thing in my opinion.
Even with 100% DPS uptime, it never appears that holding your themes would ever be recommended in a multiple target situation. Scenario 2 appears to be the clear winner in the long run. So if your Saga will hit multiple targets, then cast it.
So again, a case may be made for holding your themes during single target fights. So, at what point does that NOT become recommended? According to my quick calcs above, if you perform anything less than 87% optimal DPS, then it can never be recommended to hold your themes. It's simply better to maximize the number of Sagas you can cast.
One thing to consider is a comparison between AoE DPS outside of sagas, like with [Maddening Dance]. It's possible the AoE capabilities of a Bard may be better than 33.4 DPS and therefore sway the argument towards holding your themes. However, until more info becomes available on Bard AoE capabilities, I can't really look at that.
Thoughts:
In general, there's two things you want to do. First, maximize the number of Sagas you cast during the fight. Then, maximize the amount of time you can spend with 3 theme buffs. As long as you don't completely whiff your Sagas, you want to use them.
Recommendations:
No recommendations as far as damage goes. There's no realistic scenario that I can see where a Bard would be better off NOT casting their Sagas, and that's good. That's what we want! Things may scale differently at max level, but we'll cross that road when we get there.
One thing that may not feel great is how long it takes to charge a Saga. In effect, it's like a 90 second cooldown that could be longer if you don't cast your songs on cooldown and get your theme buffs. I like the interplay between the two.
Also, what if you WHIFF your saga? That would feel really bad, and trust me, I'll likely do it a lot But, at least if you completely whiff, you still benefit from the passive buffs of the themes. Maybe if you're super terrible at casting your Sagas or simply remembering to use them at all, maybe holding your themes might be better?
TL;DR
Melodies
[Cheerful Melody] : Passive is fine, may need tuning. [Resonant Weapon] is strong as a single target heal in solo play, but doesn't scale well with more group members. I imagine bots would play a Bard, use [Cheerful Melody], and use only weapon attacks to solo mobs and self heal. However, with so few ways to self heal, we can't make it too weak, either.
[Pensive Melody] : Passive regen might not be strong enough. [Resonant Weapon] effect is too strong compared to the passive. To eliminate degenerate gameplay, I recommend to make the [Resonant Weapon] effect only benefit the bard and compensate the group by increasing the passive regen. Since all mana regen to the party would then be passive, the Bard is free to use their toolkit as they please. Otherwise, they could be pressured to become mindless auto-attack mana batteries if the mana regen proc from [Resonant Weapon] is too strong/valuable.
[Cathartic Melody] : Benefit to the group is independent of Bard. For example, a level 10 Bard's melody potentially provides the same effect as a level 50 Bard's melody. Not really a problem, just an observation. Also, passive leech provided may not scale with DoT effects which could really hurt the effectiveness of the leech provided to the group.
[Menacing Melody] : Benefit to the group is independent of Bard, same as Cathartic. No real criticism, though, just needs proper tuning.
[Epic Melody] : Epic trolling in the right hands. I'm assuming [Epic Melody] and [Pep] stack, so 40% extra movement from a Bard alone could be a little OP.
For the following, I think the only thing we need is enough flavor to make sure they are fun. The buttons should be fun to press. Dances - Love em!
[Shielding Dance], only one shield is applied. If a party member receives a shield on stomp 1, and takes damage between stomp 1 and stomp 2, what happens? Is the shield topped up with the second stomp? What if the shield is completely removed, is a new shield applied with subsequent stomps? Can I animation cancel the dance after the shield is applied? In certain situations, I may want to apply the shield and then do other things and not be locked into a 4 second animation.
Songs - Love em! Although, it may seem odd to have both "melodies" and "songs". Seems to be very similar in name, but not in function. Other names/ideas could be chords, verses, stanzas, etc.
Stories - Well planned and choices available when choosing the mixture of themes.
Sagas - From what has been shown, maybe could be a little more flashy due to the "wind-up" needed. As long as they are balanced accordingly and outweigh benefit lost from the buffs they consume, should be great! One concern is what if I misclick a story and mess up the themes I've stacked? That could feel really bad to a player due to the long cooldown of the stories.
Other thoughts:
What about a bard ability that's channeled and provides a continuous benefit or continuous DPS? I'm imagining a Bard singing song during battle to further boost their allies (so instead of auto attacking, playing their instrument). The idea is something to complement the melody so you have a passive melody and then a channeled song to go along with it. There are already abilities categorized as "songs", so that can't be used. Just an idea, it may make Bards too passive.
-How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
Overall I liked it a lot, I've played Bard in other games so I have a lot of experience with Support Classes. It was nice to see Bard return in Ashes Of Creation.
-What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
Getting buffed into oblivion, and doing God Mode damage!
-Is there anything in particular you’re concerned about regarding what was shown in the Bard Archetype Preview?
Maddening Dance seems like a throwaway ability in it's current form.
It needs to do very high damage regardless of enemy count, but also cost MP each tick the Bard leaves it active instead of just 5 ticks.
Maddening damage should be very noticeable if combined with Menacing Melody.
Especially if one Crescendo Bard is singing Maddening Dance, and the 2nd Crescendo Bard is singing Menacing Melody at the same time.
Also, Remove the damage ramping for Maddening Dance too!
It should be BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM!! just as intense as the dance that goes along with it!
Lastly, for the Apocalypse Saga, the Bard should leap into the air, with the Apocalypse Dragon forming around him, Dragons mouth where the Bards head is - and the Bard breaths fire since he's the one telling the story.
-Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Don't like that Bards run on Intellect at all, as they will be competing for caster gear. They should be as unique as their Abilities are, and use Charisma or Spirit for their main stat.
-What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Ramping effect needs to be removed from Crescendo, should be easy to understand and just doubled.
-Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
The vertical spotlights need to be removed from Bard abilities, it's like a Neon sign pointing at the Bard location saying KILL ME! Players need to learn to look for the Bard animations and Dancing to identify them, not just look for the Neon arrows pointing at the Bard location.
Comments
I really liked it. You guys do tend to...uh...meander...a bit when discussing things, but I liked seeing the tooltips, ranges on things, and some discussion about how it would work with other classes.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
A couple of things.
1) I like healing and main healer in just about every game. I don't like not having at least SOME healing and support options. Support (buffs and the like) is my second favorite thing, but so many games just don't have it as a role, have support-type abilities sprinkled across lots of classes (especially DPS, which is my least favorite role), and/or they have the most watered down and boring "support" options possible, such as "use on CD/2 min burst windows for the party", which isn't support, it's just an extra personal CD you use on CD that happens to also affect other people.
2) I love healing but am more mixed on holy magics and organized religion, especially for fantasy gods I have no connection to, and borrowed power in general. I like knowledge based healers like medics, doctors, herbalists, and alchemists; and when possible, light or non magical in nature. FFXIV's Scholar, WoW's Restoration Druid, or Remnant 2's Medic and Alchemist classes, stuff like that is a little closer to what I enjoy. So I'm not really into Cleric's VFX being so over the top (Castigate and Censure and the Phoenix wings ability - love the dash, but it's so...over the top) and divine element. So Bard as a more knowledge (loremaster with knowledge of secret words of power) alternative to that I kind of like.
3) I like Bards in general. Thom from Wheel of Time with hidden daggers and a quick wit, Taliesin from the Pendragon Cycle with his powerful songs and knowledge of Druidic arts (he's ALSO how I think of an ideal druid), Cuoth/Coat from Name of the Wind with his broad knowledge of lore, song, sympathy, some true magic, and frightening quick mind. Just the archetype in general I've liked since I first played Baldur's Gate years ago. I especially like Bards that have the capacity to heal, like Lord of the Rings Online's Minstrel, in addition to their ability to act as a force multiplier, exhorting and powering up their friends.
4) I harbor some likely ill-fated hope that Bard will have at least one build that can be an actual healer. I'd like nothing more. But even if not, being able to provide solid off-heals and support as a useful member of a team working with the party/raid Cleric(s) sounds really fun to me. It almost seems like a Bard with focus on healing could play a lot like a WoW Resto Druid, using HoTs to lighten the load and smooth the damage curve of the party so the Holy Paladins and Holy Priests can focus more on the tanks and the Resto Shamans on burst healing needs. So weather as a healer with some support or a support with a decent bit of healing who can off-heal small parties or low danger content, I think Bard could be a neat fit. I guess if it isn't, I'll end up on Summoner (depending on if IT can be a full healer or not), or all else fails, Cleric as my least preferred but still probably "good enough" option... I'm also wondering about solo viability. Bard may just be group focused, and that's fine, though I'm not sure yet if I'll be doing solo wondering in the wilderness yet or find a guild/group before the game launches, which could have me lean towards Summoner or Cleric (not sure if they're more or less, though I think I read Cleric should have some solo viability and Summoner's jack of all trades nature should make it possible to do stuff solo or in small groups as well.)
5) Mechanically, I really like the idea of layering songs together and swapping to help the party with different situations, such as needing more healing, needing mana regeneration, or flipping to an attack posture when the party is ready to burst down a target.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I'd like to know more about the off-X roles. Like you mentioned Fighter having some off-tank potential and Bard off-healing. Is this in the sense of Vanilla WoW where Shaman, Druid, and Paladin healers could heal 5 man dungeon content but were support for the Holy Priest main healers in raids, or is this more like a FFXIV Dancer or Summoner who can toss out some situational healing but nothing else? The songs and dances SEEM like they're poised to be more capable of healing augments and traits. If it's ONLY for support...well, that's a concern, and I guess I'd have to look at Summoner (since it can...maybe...be a healer?) or Cleric...which, again, I'm not a fan of the aesthetics or VFX of.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Hard to say, since true support Bards - or a Support role in general - are so RARE. While I like Baldurs Gate 1's Bards, they were more Mages who could wear better armor, use crossbows, identify items, and...on rare occasions use the least useful Thief ability (I always found stealth and disarming traps, or at least spotting them, far more useful, and Bards being unable to do either, especially the traps one, made them ill suited as a replacement for the party Thief). I liked FFXIV's Bard in 2.0/ARR when they had a lot more situational support abilities - MP regen, TP regen, and could use the Healer level 3 Limit Break allowing for a partywide combat raise in critical situations even if both healers were KOed and the party didn't have any other reser...but most of that was taken away and the Job turned into an example of rotation with personal CDs that just happen to effect party members. Instead of bard songs that drained your MP when active and you'd swap between based on what they party needed, they went to rotational abilities used at specific timers to keep the CDs rolling.
I only played an EQ Bard briefly, and long ago, but I think they had a healing song, movement song, and the ability to layer some songs.
I like the idea of having party buffs that are somewhat short in duration so the rotation in a group is more about weaving your support abilities and just using filler damage instead of on a DPS rotation and just weaving random buffs on their CDs. And I like Bard being able to draw outside of the Holy Trinity/Quaternity lines and do some healing and a bit of damage based on the party needs. Jack of all trades Bards make for some of the best fun, especially when they have a lot of party buff and healing options and you can focus your skills and talents towards builds for whichever one your friends group needs.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I liked what I saw. Again, I'm just not sure how far we'll be able to flex them. But I really liked the dash, the songs and having two effects, and the dances looked really neat. The epics seemed cool, though we only got to see the damage one (I'm guessing another is for party support and another is for party healing?)
My only curiosity is will Bards be strictly group capable or will they have some solo effectiveness? I ask since I don't know yet if I'll be doing a lot solo or with people as I have no guild or anything at the present time and may spend some time just roaming the wilds. So there are still some questions I have there on builds and what other abilities they'll get that we haven't seen.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Hm...not really. They're a little over the top, but not like Cleric's. Yes yes, a lot of people think every bard or performer in history was an extrovert, but many were not. May great writers and lorekeepers were bookish types, and many a musician has been a solitary soul given to quiet contemplation. Some of the Bard stuff is a BIT gregarious, and it'd be nice to have an instrument/dance style that's a BIT more subdued. As one option. I like that there are different instruments, and it seems that could allow for different animation sets for player customization. This may be me just being too picky and I'd get over it, but I do think it'd be neat if there was at least one more subdued animation set/instrument. Maybe an ocarina or something and a set of dance steps a bit less...head banging? Yeah. : )
But, again, compared to some alternatives, it's okay. Just if you guys find time, would be neat... : )
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Well, that certainly seems long enough, so I'll not stray from the questions you asked, or I could go on all night, lol
I'd prefer the Bard get to choose their instrument (instead of the floating spellbook)
Drums, Flute, Lute, Horn, etc. The spellbook animation could still be used if a bard wanted to be a tale-weaver form of entertainer instead of a musician style bard.
I think the personalization helps with identity.
Would be extra-cool if bards had access to sound paks and could tie sounds to spells at their choosing, and then link them together to compose their own songs. People who played with them regularly could learn their unique songs and know what they were doing by the tune.
I believe College of Swords Bard and Full Healer Role Bard should be options for the Main role or secondary archtype.
I agree that a balance of complexity, finding that goldilocks effect, for the skill tree in terms of role building is a strong priority.
The utility of the bard needs to be strong. Whether thats a strum of the lute sending out a shockwave of sound dealing dmg and pushing enemies back in a cone, adding debuffs like slowing the enemies, lowering their accuracy, or attack speed. These are great utilities that don't show direct impact but are impactful.
I definitely want bards to have the simple ability to shoot a magical note towards an enemy dealing dmg.
I didn't like how the bard skill tree separated song and dance, it kind of made it feel like two separate skill trees, instead of just picking playstyle.
If mana regen is such a problem and only bards can fix that problem then it kind of forces small groups to play a bard even if they don't want to. Make it impactful, but not the catch all be all.
The temporary health will just come across as a fattening of the health bar that is not discernable from a standard health bar (and is kinda unfun).
If done right, my favorite classes to play are the pure support classes. From what I saw in the showcase, the Bard is on the right track. I have mana regen, heal over time, damage mitigation, and debuffs/damage options. For a basic support toolkit the fundamentals I would want are there. I like the direction, but have some suggestions in the follow-on questions.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
A proper support should be a master-of-none, utility-heavy, and have a situational playstyle where the player must adapt in various stages:
1. Prior to the encounter, the bard needs the right gear and the right skills for their build to be viable for that content.
2. During the encounter, the bard should monitor active needs of the group, aid the healer/tank in recovery from mistakes (temporary off-healing, or battle res). These utilities should be meaningful but very limited. The bard is not the healer, the tank, or the DPS, and should never replace these roles. What excites me is a bard that has a potent CD (such as battle res, a big HoT, a large shield etc.) that can only be used once every 10 minutes or so. I can save the day to prevent a wipe/reset, but I must use it wisely and only when absolutely necessary. When the group is healthy, I should be using my utility to do interrupts, debuffs, and CC to set up my tank and DPS to maximize their roles.
3. After the encounter, the bard should speed up the recovery or travel time to the next encounter. I would love to play a soothing melody that is only available out of combat, and it increases my party's mana/health regen so we can move on to the next thing.
At every stage of this encounter I am paying attention and adapting to the needs of my group, and have a very limited ability to help my friends rebound from a mistake in a way that makes them grateful for having a bard around. Not just because of my buffs, but because of all the other utility I can bring in the form of interrupt, movement, debuffs, and CC.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I would like to see broader utility with the bard. When playing a support, things can be very boring if your only job is to weave between different buff abilities and do mediocre damage. There are some deeply impactful utilities that could make the bard much more fun during encounters:
- AoE Interrupts
- ST Interrupts
- CC : Sleep, Stun, Fear
- Debuff: Slow, Weaken, Disorient/Confuse
- Partner Bonding: Allow the bard to bond with 1 player in their party. The nature of this bond will depend on what skills they've chosen to invest in, and should match the pillars already in place with the melodies. For example, bonding with a healer would give that healer +10% mana regen. Bonding with a DPS could increase their attack speed. Bonding with a tank could give them a passive health regen, or additional armor.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
The Captain in Lord of the Rings Online. They specialized in buffs, and those buffs were more potent depending on what they chose to talent into. They could talent into healing (health/mana regen), damage (debuffs/damage buffs to allies), or tank (health buffs/mitigation). They were also viable off-healers and off-tanks in a pinch. They could only maintain it for short bursts, but it was clutch if the tank went down or a healer was behind/dead. The Captain literally swooped in with a battle res, a massive HoT with a 10min CD, or a taunt with a long personal defensive CD. They could only save the day once every 10 minutes, but it really made them as a support FEEL like a support. Being there exactly when the group needs you to be, and then quietly going back to the background once the group is stabilized.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I like for weaving to be a natural part of the Bard's rotation, but not too much. The WORST CASE scenario for me is the Weaver Elementalist in GW2, which is literally described as "playing the piano," and not in a good way. To play it optimally is exhausting. However, core elementalist in GW2 is a very good example of a middle ground. Swapping between the elements is comparable to changing melodies for the Bard, and you get access to new abilities based on the element you are attuned to. I don't think it needs to go that far for the Bard, but from a weaving standpoint it is an example of a smooth weaving experience that is medium difficulty to master and still makes the class feel adaptable/versatile on the fly.
I absolutely love the combat play that was showcased with the Bard jumping into melee for a Dance, and then jumping back out to ranged for their melodies. It makes the Bard feel very involved by weaving in and out of melee to provide a shield to the tank, do an interrupt, and then hanging out with ranged away from cleave damage. You're actively engaged with the encounter.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Aesthetically I would like to see a simplified, but hopefully more iconic way of showing the shifts between melodies, dances, and sagas.
Melodies - The character is surrounded by musical notes that change color or intensity while weaving through the different melodies.
Dances - To go along with the drum theme, perhaps a pulsing ring of light, or pulsing orbs (like disco balls!) around the player.
Sagas - Have pages floating around the character, like from a book or sheet music.
This would also allow some counter-play in PvP, where if players learn to recognize the different visual effects around the bard then they can deduce what kind of support build they're leaning into.
be done differently?The overall direction of Bard is going *mostly* in a positive and correct way. The specific focus on the bard not being just a healer/buff bot/song singer but rather an enabler of others by inspiring action and emotion. I particularly like that not all bardic elements are tied to singing or playing an instrument.
I feel that during the July development update, everything went well except a common complaint I have for many of the recent archetype reveals is that we should see them using at least 2 different weapons. If every archetype is truly meant to be able to use each weapon, then we need to see it to get a general vibe, even if just for a moment. I understand that a part of the showcase was to also show off the spell book, but it was incomplete and had no skill tree; it ultimately limited the potential to see another aspect of the bard by sticking to just the book. The same gripe was had for the ranger and fighter showcase.
Bard Ability Discussion - What do you like, and what concerns do you have about the look and feel of the abilities, such as melodies and dances, shared for the Bard Archetype? NOTE: We’re not looking for balance feedback at this time. The look and feel are amazing overall and I am sure will only get more refined and polished with time. I'd say most of my opinions are balanced based, so I will try be brief here and not go into them until the necessary time.
General feedback:I love a lot of the comedy and taunting aspects of bards kit, but I would hope for more variety and "seriousness" to become options for those wanting to play a more dirge singer or the 'Dance Macabre' type bard that isn't comical with its spells.
Melodies: These seem great and my only note is definitely to add more options and such, perhaps even limitations so people can mix and match to make a more unique symphony catering to their playstyle.
Dances:I really liked the feel of many of the dances, however I do feel a few could do with some more systematic looks into. This is borderline a balance feedback, but I think Shielding Dance in particular should be made to work in reverse. Healing every second and ending on a shield, feels weird when its trademark is the shield. It should periodically shield and then ending with either a heal, or a large healing received buff to work with the cleric in an, "I'm buying you time!" type of synergy.
Songs: I think the songs are for the most part fine. I do think Chilling Lament will need more support for it being the only frost damage in your kit. I also feel that the spirit damage on Dark Lullaby is an excellent feature and I would love if all sources of spirit damage share the same synergy of not waking sleeping targets to allow for funny teamwork combos.
Sagas: I think Sagas are an amazing idea and are in the right direction, but could do with expanding and making even greater and bigger. The amount commitment to set them up should be rewarded.
Archetype Skill Tree - What are your thoughts regarding the current direction of the archetype skill tree progression? How do you feel about Crescendo, Counterpoint, and other choices that change the way you play a Bard?My feedback for this is rather simple. I think the skill tree is heading in a great direction but there needs to be more divides between tiers especially as more skills are added.
Bard Class Fantasy - What makes a Bard feel like a Bard to you? What aspects of Bards from other games or popular media would you like to see in Ashes of Creation? To me, personally, Bard is the fantasy of being an entertainer who enhances the emotions and enables others through inspiration. Whether by songs, dashing feats of bravery and foolishness, witty remarks, poetry, etc. The bard is the presence that isn't always fully felt, until it is missing. A Bard can be a lot of different things, whether its a scholar of magic, seeking out ancient Words of Power that ushered into creation before magic was truly discovered. It could be a dashing musician performing for the benefit of those around them. They could be a gladiatorial, Battleborn or swashbuckling fighter, chanting skaldic hymns or sea shanties and insults; inspiring allies with their actions. Or perhaps even a dark and mysterious figure orchestrating scenes and pulling strings in politics like puppets in a show. The very essence of what makes a Bard, a Bard is the fact that nothing "truly" is Bard except for the larger than life approach to their passions and the thrill of their craft. Because of this, bard truly is the "more is more" type of class who needs a ton of different varieties and options to choose from. SkillPoints matter just as much to a Bard player's theme as they do their competitive capability. Anyone and anything can be a bard, if it invokes the actions of others.
Inspiration from other games and media I'd draw reference to is the DnD Bard with how its colleges are essentially what could be skill tree focuses that allow a player to make their bard more unique and focus on enabling the actions of certain areas. Are you a control mage type bard supporting from a distance bolstering your healers and casters? Are you a dashing scoundrel dancing and slashing your way through crowds mesmerizing foes and challenging your fighters to exceed their limits and break through? Or are you a songstress whose songs and melodies can be heard throughout the battlefield?
Points from the Office Hours chats-
- Afk 'Tavern' Buffs: If there is one thing I beg that is listened to from the walls of text I type, its that out of action buffs a bard (or any archetype) simply applies for x (usually were like 30) minutes to strangers and then awaits for their return or the next set...should never return to MMOs. This is such a 2000 esque MMO trend and encourages several major issues. The first is skill bloat. These are either a must-buy mandatory for all Bards to grant to people or self in various manners and take away SkillPoints that could have been spent on actual identify defining bardic skills like swordplay/songs/etc. The next issue is if they're strong, it promotes creating alts and multiboxing to keep buffing yourself when out questing and not wanting to return to town...we see this with the original iRose online MMO with how you *had* to level a Cleric alt first to grant campfire buffs and stat raises to competitively kill mobs to lvl fast enough to make the game playable. From there, you'd then level your main account while buffing it. This was so bad even iRose corrected it with their later update of the game in RoseEvo but ultimately made them mediocre and not worth bothering with. Next, they're also very lazy and create an unhealthy gameplay loop. We shouldn't be forcing players to return to a location simply to reapply buffs and it would make it almost mandatory to add easy teleporting between places. Ashes of Creation has a huge map and we should want the players to be out in it. Finally, for the Bard themselves it pushes them into inactive tasks which take away from other features. Why would we want a Bard simply sat in town buffing when they could be exploring the world, doing quests for cool stories to tell there friends/towns, gathering and crafting, getting into shenanigans. A bard, and quite frankly any other archetype should live that fantasy actively out in the world, not lurking to buff the next person. A bard should be living in the world, not taverns.
Also, It was brought up about having a FFXIV style bard custom music system. A bard isn’t just a musician in Ashes of Creation though. While the FFXIV song playing is great, it opens a bias rabbit hole. Will I get to do poetry and special custom dances too? In addition, it's a simple add on to account for the fact that FFXIV Bard is literally only a Bard by name and the fact it has musical themes to its BOW AND ARROW attacks. It's a game design constraint, something ashes of creation doesn't have. I think this is something that should be heavily debated and delivered carefully and without holding any weight into the Bard itself. If Bard is to suffer due to this feature taking time to make, it shouldn't be a thing. Ultimately, will focusing resources on this take away from making Bard the best Bard you could ever Bard? If so, don't.
-Core Pillars of Bard and "Keeping it simple". This is a difficult one as I understand truly the logic behind what the speaker was saying, however Bard is very much the opposite of "keeping it simple" and the pillars of what makes a Bard, Bard is the diversity in being able to fulfill any role in a party by bolstering the role of the others so the gap they cover isn't as big. It was said to have "four pillars, mana battery, healing amp, damage amp, and control mage" and while this is solid and definitely repertoire for a bard, it isn't the only thing. Not all Bards could be called "mages" even if they use some magic elements as they draw on the power of the world through invoking actions, ancient words, songs, etc. In addition, what of Swords Bards, Skalds, Swashbucklers, FFXIV Bard clones with a bow and harp? A bard doesn't have to part time as a mage which is the biggest issue with the statement. However from its supporting side, I very much agree with the above points of healing amp(over actual healing) either by increasing total heal received, or shielding to buy time for the cleric to heal people, damage amp either via magical feats, or dashing displays of martial prowess.
Two final Points I'd appreciate addressing:
To add on to what I said in the first question of the post about archetypes using all weapons. Are we to expect the typical troupe of rangers MUST use bows, fighters MUST be 2handed, and bards to be a magic debuff mage with aura songs? I really would appreciate backing the statements we have heard Steven make regarding every archetype being able to be proficient with any weapon. This is huge for bards, as many people, myself included, are drawn to the DnD sword bard swashbuckler fantasy. Being that ever tricky frontliner who uses their wit to demoralize foes and create flashy openings for allies.
Finally, this is regarding truly what "enabling others to do there roles" is which is ultimately the defining core identify of how a bard supports the party. I feel there is too much direct healing in Bard's kit as of current. Between your melody, songs, dances, and gambit, you are arguably taking away the Cleric's needs to press buttons and act rather than supporting them in doing so. There is a very fine line between helping/enabling and simply taking away their importance. I'd personally suggest changing a few of the spells to shields and further focusing in on the "increased healing received" angle. A bard is essentially amplifying what already was capable within the party, buying time with barriers and giving the cleric or dps that extra juice they need on their tools. Alternatively, if Bard is moonlighting as a healer or dps, they should be coming with the added risk of being slightly weaker at that role but also bringing a ton other fun tools that a standard healer or dps can't bring, like mana regen and nifty CC. Bard shouldn't get revives like Cleric, so that if they are your primary healer it is very much expected that the party can and must perform to a higher level than if they had just brought a cleric. There should always be risk to the reward.
Thank you for all your dedication and hard work in making such an ambitious, yet amazing and passionate game. I hope my rambles are of some use to the development and I look forward to Alpha2.
I'm really liking how a bard looks! It's by far my favorite of the classes. I thought I wanted to go Ranger, but Bard is looking really fun!
I'll start with observations and assumptions.
Observations from the video:
Assumptions:
The above image includes HP and MP numbers taken from the livestream. These numbers are used when calculating time to fully restore HP/MP values for the group as well as the Bard (Bucky).
One other assumption is DPS numbers by the group. Using numbers from the livestream, average group DPS was calculated at 159.36 rounded up to 160. Average player DPS was then calculated as 160/6 = 26.7 DPS. On the Youtube video of the livestream, mobs were DPSed down from timestamps 2:03:37 to 2:05:37. There were 4 mobs alive around that point: Taskmaster (HP = 10,538), Thrall 1 (HP = 818), Thrall 2 (HP = 818), and Outhouser (HP = 7682). That's 19,856 damage done over 2 minutes which equates to 165.5 DPS as a group. That also assumes no healing was done by the mobs during that time, which would only increase the required DPS. Then, from 2:05:50 to 2:06:24, the Taskmaster was defeated with only single target DPS after he resurrected with 4685 HP, resulting in an average 137.8 DPS over 34 seconds. Combining those two events, (24,541 HP / 154 seconds) = 159.36 DPS. I rounded up to 160 for the analysis and player DPS is considered equal between players.
[Cheerful Melody]
[Cheerful Melody] : Nearby party members gain [Cheerful Melody]: Healing received increased by 20%. Also lightly heals for 15% healing every 2 seconds.
[Resonant Weapon] : Heal a nearby injured ally for 250% healing. Favors yourself and party members.
[Cheerful Melody] would restore [15%(33.4)(1+20%)]= 6.0 health every 2 seconds, or 3 HPS (heals per second) per party member. Yes, the passive 15% healing also benefits from the 20% increased healing!
[Resonant Weapon] would restore [250%(33.4)(1+20%)]= 100.2 health per combo finisher. With a spellbook capable of hitting two combo finishers within a rough 5 second attack window, that's approximately [100.2 * 2 / 5] = 40.4 HPS. (The livestream shows healing of 101 from triggers, so rounding is happening somewhere).
The table below highlights potential HPS.
The average time to refill an entire party's health = 4575 HP / 58.4 HPS = 78.3 seconds
The average time to refill your health while solo = 569 HP / 43.4 HPS = 13.1 seconds
The [Resonant Weapon] effect is MUCH stronger than the passive benefit of the melody. The melody is passive, requires no global cooldowns, and heals outside of combat. [Resonant Weapon] triggers require constant weapon attacks + combo finishers, allows no wiggle room for other "on cooldown" abilities, and has no benefit outside of combat.
Overall, I think [Cheerful Melody] is best in small group and solo situations. While the [Resonant Weapon] effect is very strong, it doesn't scale at all in group play (OK, maybe a little if you're getting magical attack power buffs or attack speed buffs from somewhere). Also, chain casting weapon attacks locks out the rest of the Bard's toolkit and most of a bard's toolkit is built to support the group. With other healing cooldowns available, the strongest part of [Cheerful Melody], the [Resonant Weapon] triggers, may not get realized.
Thoughts:
The healing portion of [Resonant Weapon] is triggered from combo finishers from weapons, but is powered by magical attack power. This means that given two magical weapons with similar magical power, the faster weapon could simply be better for [Resonant Weapon] trigger effects in every scenario. The amount healed by [Resonant Weapon] isn't determined by how strong the combo finisher actually is, just only that it happens. Players will certainly look for cheese tactics where weapons hit rapidly.
For example, imagine if there was a magical bow (to grant magical attack power) with a combo finisher that hit rapidly (say 5 times) but only did very minor damage. The healing done through [Resonant Weapon] triggers would still be 101 per hit, but it would heal 5 times. Compare that to a spellbook that hits 2 times. I think 505 healing (101 healing * 5 triggers) with a bow > 202 healing with a spellbook. This kind of thing may not ever be possible, but I think it's better to point out the possibility now rather than later.
However, here's the same scenario but only slightly more degenerate. Imagine if it wasn't a magical bow, it was a physical attack power bow, but STILL provided better [Resonant Weapon] healing simply because it offered more combo finishers per rotation. Imagine if a non-caster weapon was better for healing than a caster weapon MEANT for healing. Bards should be able to use every weapon just like every other class, but at the same time we need to make the weapon benefits provided to the Bard are balanced.
Finally, the [Resonant Weapon] trigger is a single heal to a random party member. There isn't a compelling reason to chain together weapon attacks instead of using the Bard's other abilities. It is single target damage with single hit heals applied to random party members. And that's OK! It can be the default thing to do when nothing else is going on and the party is doing fine.
Recommendations:
[Pensive Melody]
Ah, the problem child. I think most players debating rolling a Bard are worried about becoming nothing more than a mana battery. I'm sure some players just won't care one way or another, but it's a concern.
[Pensive Melody] : Nearby party members gain [Pensive Melody]: Restores mana equal to 1 + 1% magical power every 2 seconds.
[Resonant Weapon] : Restore mana to a nearby ally in need equal to 25 + 5% magical power. Favors yourself and party members.
[Pensive Melody] would restore [1 + 1%(33.4)] = 1.3 mana every 2 seconds.
[Resonant Weapon] would restore [25 + 5%(33.4)]= 26.67 mana per combo finisher.
In a full 20 second [Pensive Melody] cycle, total potential mana restored = (20 seconds)(# party members)(MPS per party member) + (27 mana per combo finisher)(2 combo finishers / 5 second weapon rotation)
Now in the above graphic, I went ahead and rounded up the 1.3 mana given to 2, as that's what happened in the video. The same is true with the mana regen via [Resonant Weapon] triggers, I rounded up to 27. So in effect, I'm actually grossly overestimating the passive mana regen. In a full group, instead of 6 MPS it's actually 4 MPS without rounding. So even with some generous rounding up on the passive mana regen, it pales in overall group benefit compared to just spamming weapon attacks, and that's the point.
Average time to refill entire party = 2894 MP / 16.8 MPS = 172.3 seconds, or just under three minutes.
Average time to refill bard's MP = 457 MP / 11.8 MPS = 38.7 seconds (Bucky was the Bard in the video, see table near the top).
The calculations are just a rough estimate, but even assuming nonstop weapon attacks and 2 [Resonant Weapon] triggers every 5 seconds, it would still take almost 3 minutes to fully regen a party from 0 to full. It was clear that the group in the video was struggling with mana during some really heavy pulls, but the Bard wasn't fully utilizing [Resonant Weapon] triggers. The longer that fights drag on, the more important mana conservation and regeneration becomes. Bards may not like it but being a mana battery may be the single most important group benefit they provide, both PVE and PVP.
In a raid, it is a very real possibility that a Bard could be asked to keep [Pensive Melody] up at all times and only do weapon attacks. If the group is simply that starved for mana, they could very well try that and if it works, well.. expect it to be meta.
A well balanced PVP encounter could also be tilted in your favor with a Bard. Again, the longer the fights drag out then the more benefit a Bard brings with mana regen. If you outlast another group in PVP, that very well might be the difference between victory and defeat.
Thoughts:
The ratio of passive regen of [Pensive Melody] vs trigger regen of [Resonant Weapon] is too skewed in favor of [Resonant Weapon]. If the most mana regen comes from a Bard using weapon attacks, they could very well be expected to do that and only that. A rare case, I might imagine, but still possible. The more the regen is skewed towards [Resonant Weapon] triggers, the more a Bard would be pressured to only do weapon attacks and mindless fish for combo finishers.
Recommendations:
[Cathartic Melody]
[Cathartic Melody] : Nearby party members gain [Cathartic Melody]: Your attacks have a 25% chance to heal yourself for 50% of the damage done.
[Resonant Weapon] : Deal bonus (75%) bleed damage and apply Wounded to each target hit.
[Cathartic Melody]'s expected value of healing = (25% proc chance)(50% of damage done) = 12.5% of DPS converted to healing on average in the long run.
[Resonant Weapon] applies 75% bleed and Wounded.
There's an issue here, and that's DoT effects. It's unclear right away whether DoT effects will trigger [Cathartic Melody]. In some cases it could be straightforward, but in other cases not. For example, what if bleed effects stack onto a mob? Would the system keep track of how many bleeds belong to each party member, separate them all out, and heal accordingly? I think it's much more likely that [Cathartic Melody] will only trigger on direct damage. If that's true, [Cathartic Melody] loses value the more that group DPS is derived from DoTs.
For the sake of argument, let's assume ALL damage benefits from [Cathartic Melody]. In a full 20s [Cathartic Melody], total possible health restored = (20 seconds)(# party members)(Average Player DPS)(12.5%)
As a reminder, the GROUP average DPS was calculated at around 160 DPS. In a 6 player group, that comes out to 26.6 DPS. Mileage will vary, of course, but per player the average HPS is (160 DPS)(12.5%) / (6 players) = 3.3 HPS
Average time to refill an entire party's health = 4575 HP / 19.9 HPS = 229.7 seconds, or 3 minutes 50 seconds.
Average time to refill the Bard's health = 457 HP / 3.3 HPS = 137.7 seconds, or 2 minutes 18 seconds.
Now right away, that may not seem like very much, but here's the thing; it's all passive! Compared to the passive regen from [Cheerful Melody], it's almost identical. That's good news because you can get roughly the same passive healing as [Cheerful Melody] but squeeze a little more DPS out of your weapon attacks through [Resonant Weapon] triggers. Or, if melody weaving, you can double up on the passive healing by running [Cathartic Melody] alongside [Cheerful Melody].
The downside here is that the numbers above assume 100% of damage is convertible through [Cathartic Melody]. If it turns out to be the case that DoT damage does not translate into passive healing, then the actual HPS numbers would be lower.
However, there's one other upside; the healing via [Cathartic Melody] is contingent on the individual DPS of the members of the group, and has nothing to do with the Bard. That means, theoretically, a level 10 Bard could provide the same passive HPS through [Cathartic Melody] as a level 50 Bard.
Thoughts:
The passive leech healing could very well out-scale the passive healing via [Cheerful Melody] when the group is doing consistent DPS. However, it requires the group to... well... be doing DPS. If there is downtime, or players are stunned, or not attacking, or generally just standing around doing anything BUT attacking then the passive leech provided by [Cathartic Melody] will drop off or simply be nonexistent. That makes the passive healing via [Cheerful Melody] very consistent and the leech via [Cathartic Melody] very situational. I think there's great risk/reward with this melody and all it needs is proper tuning.
[Menacing Melody]
[Menacing Melody] : Nearby enemies take 10% increased damage.
[Resonant Weapon] : Deal bonus (75%) arcane damage and apply Weakened to each target hit.
This one is pretty straight forward. It's a straight up DPS increase, your [Resonant Weapon] deals extra damage on combo finishers, and applies Weakened. This one will likely feel good in any situation. It's unclear yet exactly what Weakened will do.
Based on earlier calculations, the group was dealing approximately 160 DPS or 26.7 DPS per player.
If a player does 26.7 DPS, the benefit per person from [Menacing Melody] is 2.67 DPS. In addition, we need to calculate the benefit of [Resonant Weapon] as it produces an extra (75%) arcane damage on a combo finisher and it also benefits from [Menacing Melody]. That's 2 [Resonant Weapon] triggers for 33.4(75%) = 25.1 damage each and equates roughly 10.0 DPS before [Menacing Melody] buffs it an extra 10%. In this example, yes, we are assuming that a Bard's DPS was 26.7 before [Menacing Melody] and there's no opportunity cost involved with applying it. Relax!
So the group DPS scales up per player, however the DPS from [Resonant Weapon] does not, as the Bard is the only one triggering it. The extra DPS from the [Resonant Weapon] trigger + the extra 10% from the passive totals to the final column.
Thoughts:
It's not a great amount of DPS, however it is all passive and that feels pretty good. [Menacing Melody] gets better as your group DPS gets better. The DPS numbers pulled from the video were generally from single target damage, so imagine how large a benefit the group could derive from large AoE pulls.
Also, [Menacing Melody] can be cycled on during large burst windows and then cycled off during DPS downtime or if HP/MP regen is more urgent. The [Resonant Weapon] effect of applying Weakened will need to be explored. All in all I think it's a good melody just needs proper tuning.
[Epic Melody]
The problem child you may not even know existed, in my opinion.
[Epic Melody] : Nearby party members gain [Epic Melody]: movement speed increased by 20%.
[Resonant Weapon] : Dispel up to 1 root and apply [Pep] to each party member.
[Pep] : A momentary 20% movement speed boost. Lasts 5 seconds.
I'm assuming that the 20% movement speed from [Epic Melody] and [Pep] stack, otherwise what would be the point of [Resonant Weapon] triggering [Pep]?
PVE: Raid encounters and "standing in the bad". I think we're all aware how movement speed can be the difference between being alive or getting 1-shot by mechanics. Extra movement speed is like insurance on the slow reaction speeds of players.
SOLO: Need to escape a sticky situation? Use [Get Off The Stage] to knock back melee enemies and snare them, cast [Epic Melody] off global cooldown for instant 20% movement speed, hit [Flourish] for another 20% movement speed, and then hit the road! You can either re-engage from a distance and keep yourself out of range by chaining weapon attacks and constantly dispelling roots on yourself and reapplying [Pep] for permanent 40% extra movement speed, or you can simply run away. They won't catch you.
SOLO: 40% permanent movement speed as long as you do a combo finisher at least once every 5 seconds. Talk about kiting possibilities. Bards could probably solo tank a lot of tough mobs as long as they paid attention and never let the enemy get close enough. And that's true in PVE as well as PVP. If you're an [Epic Melody] bard and can give yourself almost permanent 40% movement speed while attacking and dispelling roots, then you should never lose a 1v1 against a melee.
Group PVE: How about a tank with 40% extra movement speed? They could round up a big group of mobs and perma-kite them with that much extra movement speed. As long as they kept aggro, the rest of the group could DPS and the group may never even take damage. If aggro becomes an issue, a Bard can cast [Misdirection] to reduce threat on nearby party members.
There's so much cheese possible, I can't wait to see the types of shenanigans other players can come up with.
Dances
Not a lot to say on the dances. I do have some concerns. Can dances be canceled by casting/using other abilities or are we animation locked?
[Shielding Dance] is a very quick, strong, group heal. The strongest part is up front, the shield. The shield is for 400% healing and lasts 15 seconds, while over the course of the cast party members are healed for 50% per stomp for a total of 200%. If the group is full health and I just want to apply the shield, I would like to animation cancel after the first stomp so that after the shield is applied, I can go on to use other abilities.
[Nimble Dance] is fairly straightforward, good for a quick boost of speed for the group with [Pep]
[Mesmerizing Dance] is an awfully short cast time for a group wide Incapacitate. For something that hits in an AoE, I might expect the cast or "wind up" to be a bit longer to give other players a chance to interrupt it.
[Maddening Dance] Straight forward AoE. I might like to see this as a channel, though, so that Bard's have some kind of consistent AoE ability. [Maddening Dance] lasts 4 seconds but has a 25 second cooldown. The only other ability that hits multiple targets that I see is [Discordance] and it also has a 25 second cooldown. Bard's provide awesome AoE buffs, but appear that they might suffer in AoE dps.
Songs
[Lovely Serenade] is the Bard's strong ST heal. 3.5 second cast and heals 150% per second, so does it hit 3 or 4 times? I'm assuming 3, and at 3.5 second [Glee] is applied so let's say 450% healing. Just an assumption. [Glee] heals for 60% every 2 seconds for 15 seconds. So, say, 7 sticks for an extra 420% healing. That's at least 870% healing for 25 mana and a 3.5 second commitment. This is very strong and targeted, as compared to a possible 500% healing from [Resonant Weapon] procs that are applied to a random party member.
[Anthem of Alacrity] is like Power Infusion from WoW on steroids. Might be too good. I don't like the relatively short cooldown and short duration. We'll likely be asked to keep this on cooldown and applied to the best DPS in the group (or Cleric in healing checks) and will be a big mana drain.
[Chilling Lament] seems out of place. I'm all for more abilities and ways to deal damage, but I think the actual chilled effect and bonus damage to Frozen targets just seems out of place. I don't see anything wrong with it, I just think it seems out of place.
[Dark Lullaby] is great. I love the interaction between this and [Mesmerizing Dance]. A keeper.
[Discordance] is also great. I like the cleave it provides. I wonder how much the damage is reduced per bounce.
Stories
One thing that may seem out of place at first glance is that one might expect [Conflict] and [Chaos] to both be physical or magic. The same with [Destiny] and [Wonder]. Instead, one of them is physical and the other magic. Meanwhile for [Triumph] and [Joy], they both affect health which seems normal.
I believe this is intentional so that if I wanted to cast the saga [The Myth of Creation] which requires one of each color or theme, I can do so with 2 magic stories and 1 health story or go with 2 physical stories and 1 health story and not be forced to simply rely on 1 physical, 1 magic, and 1 health. I like it.
Saga
Stories share a 30 second cooldown with each other so you can only have 1 active at a time. Stories also grant themes, which are used to power your Sagas. When starting from scratch with no themes, it takes 60 seconds to prepare your first saga. (Cast 1st story at time 0, 2nd story at time 30, 3rd story at time 60, and then cast your Saga immediately after gaining your 3rd theme at roughly time 61 or so). In the livestream, it's clear to see that you are able to cast your Saga as soon as you have three themes. The icon on the action bar was clearly lit up and active.
Each theme appears to provide a buff to the Bard as long as the theme remains. For example, the red theme in the livestream or [Tragedy] provides a 5% damage increase. Since you stack these themes in order to charge your Saga, theoretically the buffs would stack as well? That's my assumption.
So here's the question... is it actually WORTH it to cast the Saga at the cost of removing the buffs that the stacked themes are providing? Let's take a look!
Assumptions:
In the livestream, magical power was 33.4 and average DPS was calculated at 26.7. For sake of argument, I am going to assume that a Bard could possibly do 33.4 DPS if they focused SOLELY on maximizing their DPS. I chose to do this because I need a clear way to compare a Bard's overall damage to that done by the Saga. The benefit of the theme is 5% damage, not just 5% magic attack or 5% physical attack. It's all damage. By setting the average DPS to 33.4, it's more easily comparable to the damage of a Saga which is based on just magical attack power. Therefore, I can just compare the % numbers between the themes and Saga damage.
It's also important to maximize the potential of a Bard's DPS, so choosing 33.4 which is notably higher than the average 26.7 calculated earlier seems appropriate and not too far fetched.
The one saga available at the moment, [The Apocalpyse], does 150% damage and 30% burning damage over 8 seconds for a total of 340%(magical attack power) damage assuming all damage is dealt as expected.
I will also assume that you start the fight with 0 themes, or from scratch. I believe this is best case scenario for not casting Sagas as the Bard will benefit from the passive benefits of themes in all three scenarios for at least 60 seconds. Starting a fight with themes means up to 1 more Saga cast per fight and only makes the case for casting Sagas better.
I will consider three different scenarios:
Scenario 1 : Cast saga at time 60 (or as soon as possible from scratch) and then every 90 seconds afterward.
Scenario 2 : Cast saga at time 90 and then every 90 seconds afterward.
Scenario 3 : Never casting a Saga and keeping 3 themes and maximizing possible theme buffs.
With the best case scenario, it appears that it is only better to hold your themes and not cast a Saga in very specific windows, and that's while assuming maximized personal DPS. It doesn't look like the DPS gain is really worth it, and holding your themes will likely never be recommended and that's a good thing in my opinion.
Even with 100% DPS uptime, it never appears that holding your themes would ever be recommended in a multiple target situation. Scenario 2 appears to be the clear winner in the long run. So if your Saga will hit multiple targets, then cast it.
So again, a case may be made for holding your themes during single target fights. So, at what point does that NOT become recommended? According to my quick calcs above, if you perform anything less than 87% optimal DPS, then it can never be recommended to hold your themes. It's simply better to maximize the number of Sagas you can cast.
One thing to consider is a comparison between AoE DPS outside of sagas, like with [Maddening Dance]. It's possible the AoE capabilities of a Bard may be better than 33.4 DPS and therefore sway the argument towards holding your themes. However, until more info becomes available on Bard AoE capabilities, I can't really look at that.
Thoughts:
In general, there's two things you want to do. First, maximize the number of Sagas you cast during the fight. Then, maximize the amount of time you can spend with 3 theme buffs. As long as you don't completely whiff your Sagas, you want to use them.
Recommendations:
No recommendations as far as damage goes. There's no realistic scenario that I can see where a Bard would be better off NOT casting their Sagas, and that's good. That's what we want! Things may scale differently at max level, but we'll cross that road when we get there.
One thing that may not feel great is how long it takes to charge a Saga. In effect, it's like a 90 second cooldown that could be longer if you don't cast your songs on cooldown and get your theme buffs. I like the interplay between the two.
Also, what if you WHIFF your saga? That would feel really bad, and trust me, I'll likely do it a lot
TL;DR
Melodies
[Cheerful Melody] : Passive is fine, may need tuning. [Resonant Weapon] is strong as a single target heal in solo play, but doesn't scale well with more group members. I imagine bots would play a Bard, use [Cheerful Melody], and use only weapon attacks to solo mobs and self heal. However, with so few ways to self heal, we can't make it too weak, either.
[Pensive Melody] : Passive regen might not be strong enough. [Resonant Weapon] effect is too strong compared to the passive. To eliminate degenerate gameplay, I recommend to make the [Resonant Weapon] effect only benefit the bard and compensate the group by increasing the passive regen. Since all mana regen to the party would then be passive, the Bard is free to use their toolkit as they please. Otherwise, they could be pressured to become mindless auto-attack mana batteries if the mana regen proc from [Resonant Weapon] is too strong/valuable.
[Cathartic Melody] : Benefit to the group is independent of Bard. For example, a level 10 Bard's melody potentially provides the same effect as a level 50 Bard's melody. Not really a problem, just an observation. Also, passive leech provided may not scale with DoT effects which could really hurt the effectiveness of the leech provided to the group.
[Menacing Melody] : Benefit to the group is independent of Bard, same as Cathartic. No real criticism, though, just needs proper tuning.
[Epic Melody] : Epic trolling in the right hands. I'm assuming [Epic Melody] and [Pep] stack, so 40% extra movement from a Bard alone could be a little OP.
For the following, I think the only thing we need is enough flavor to make sure they are fun. The buttons should be fun to press.
Dances - Love em!
[Shielding Dance], only one shield is applied. If a party member receives a shield on stomp 1, and takes damage between stomp 1 and stomp 2, what happens? Is the shield topped up with the second stomp? What if the shield is completely removed, is a new shield applied with subsequent stomps? Can I animation cancel the dance after the shield is applied? In certain situations, I may want to apply the shield and then do other things and not be locked into a 4 second animation.
Songs - Love em! Although, it may seem odd to have both "melodies" and "songs". Seems to be very similar in name, but not in function. Other names/ideas could be chords, verses, stanzas, etc.
Stories - Well planned and choices available when choosing the mixture of themes.
Sagas - From what has been shown, maybe could be a little more flashy due to the "wind-up" needed. As long as they are balanced accordingly and outweigh benefit lost from the buffs they consume, should be great! One concern is what if I misclick a story and mess up the themes I've stacked? That could feel really bad to a player due to the long cooldown of the stories.
Other thoughts:
What about a bard ability that's channeled and provides a continuous benefit or continuous DPS? I'm imagining a Bard singing song during battle to further boost their allies (so instead of auto attacking, playing their instrument). The idea is something to complement the melody so you have a passive melody and then a channeled song to go along with it. There are already abilities categorized as "songs", so that can't be used. Just an idea, it may make Bards too passive.
Overall I liked it a lot, I've played Bard in other games so I have a lot of experience with Support Classes. It was nice to see Bard return in Ashes Of Creation.
-What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
Getting buffed into oblivion, and doing God Mode damage!
-Is there anything in particular you’re concerned about regarding what was shown in the Bard Archetype Preview?
Maddening Dance seems like a throwaway ability in it's current form.
It needs to do very high damage regardless of enemy count, but also cost MP each tick the Bard leaves it active instead of just 5 ticks.
Maddening damage should be very noticeable if combined with Menacing Melody.
Especially if one Crescendo Bard is singing Maddening Dance, and the 2nd Crescendo Bard is singing Menacing Melody at the same time.
Also, Remove the damage ramping for Maddening Dance too!
It should be BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM!! just as intense as the dance that goes along with it!
Lastly, for the Apocalypse Saga, the Bard should leap into the air, with the Apocalypse Dragon forming around him, Dragons mouth where the Bards head is - and the Bard breaths fire since he's the one telling the story.
-Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Don't like that Bards run on Intellect at all, as they will be competing for caster gear. They should be as unique as their Abilities are, and use Charisma or Spirit for their main stat.
-What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Ramping effect needs to be removed from Crescendo, should be easy to understand and just doubled.
-Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
The vertical spotlights need to be removed from Bard abilities, it's like a Neon sign pointing at the Bard location saying KILL ME! Players need to learn to look for the Bard animations and Dancing to identify them, not just look for the Neon arrows pointing at the Bard location.