Please do not cap, or at least cap with small number such as 8 as we heard, the Bard AE debuffs in pvp. Smaller more organized groups need AE that hits larger numbers of players to Zerg bust.
The Dünir Hold Mithril Warhammers,Thanes of the Keelhaul, Dünir scourge of the oceans, Warhammer First Fleet Command of The Dünzenkell Nation, friends to the Dünir Dwarves of the Dünhold. Hammers High!
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
I really liked the concept shown, and the bard managed to go from my least likely class to play to top 3. The mobility and unique class design is extremely exciting, and I look forward to attempting to learn a new playstyle.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
Being able to be a unique support as well as potentially attempting to solo with a team player class. To specify, I don't want the class to become able to fight solo, I want to try and play a team-focused class solo.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
The visuals of the terrain and world seemed more lackluster than previously, and the visual and audio clutter is equally concerning. However, the spellbook seemed amazing and I am highly anticipating using it. The implementation of the weapon seems distinct from other games. For a small tweak, I believe the spellbook could be held slightly closer to the player, be minimally smaller (though not anything insane like 40% smaller), and could be held on the back of the player rather than permanently in the air or on their hip.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
The mobility looks extremely fun to play, and I hope they are able to have more abilities like the dash, quick wit, and knock back abilities. Additionally, the counter-point vs crescendo playstyles seem very fun to test while remaining distinct from each other.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
I think having more instrument animations would be better, but, despite other's claims, please do not make the bard focused on instruments. I say this as a real-life musician who wants to play a bard with the spellbook as the primary magical focus.
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
Loved the preview, i particularly enjoyed the actual play segment but it was all good. Very glad we got to hear from a sound designer, I would love to hear from sound more often such a prevalent part of the world when in game. Even if its a description of foley techniques I would love to hear more about sound direction if not from sound designers.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
For playing the Bard i find myself mostly drawn to that battlefield wide awareness, being a good bard seems like it comes from knowing who really needs support at any given moment and that kind of king-maker gameplay is really exciting for me. The idea of whoever is getting the bards attention feeling a nitro kick in damage or a ability to stand and fight what was kicking there ass seems really fun. For interacting with the bard It seems like a very important class to flag in PVP, a bards speed boost could be the key ingredient to a hit squad making their escape.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
Very excited for the plan for the melodies, mixing into the music and very excited to see the storybook effects.
I'm also very excited for the mo-capture that was used. it seems really fun to have such intense dances in combat.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I've seen the bard in EQ1 and the bard's in EQ2, this seems much more akin to the bard in EQ1, which is a good thing, i was always envious of bards in that game for how desired they were in utility. The idea of persistent songs and the speed buff as well as a little CC are the similarities I see
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I am a little concerned that the bard only seems to have one CC spell, a single target Charm or even striking a mob deaf to lower its agro range seems like a fun time. Bard is also one of the classes that should be really slippery so id like to see maybe one stunning smoke bomb or even the classic misdirect, some kind of pocket sand moment, though maybe the shield dance already fills this space. I also think that fun and purely cosmetic abilities would be a addition i would enjoy. especially if it were unique to the 64 classes. thats just wish listing though,
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Absolutely loved the dances and the VFX the moon on the sleep spell is one of my favorites, immediately lets the party know what the bard is doing.
1
RaetionMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Bard
I like how Intrepid is making the bard. A buffing class that can be speced to go melee or stay ranged.
Or to buff magic or physical damage. This all makes each bard unique and makes it a useful class.
I do think some of the skills are under-tuned and some are overturned at the moment.
From the Fighter showcase, they were saying that they were lacking mana but that the bard could solve this.
But now seeing the Bard the one skill that gives mana gives so little that it is a waste of a skill point in my opinion. There are way better choices of skills to pick at the moment.
I also think that the damage skills might be a little under-tuned. they should do a little more damage. not as much as a mage or any other DPS would do.
Then the damage % buff seems way too strong as it currently is. you have a 10% melody that you can use. And then also have the Stories that buff magic of physical damage. using both of these together makes it way to strong in my opinion. So they might need to be tuned down.
Q) How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
Excited that it looks quite impactful and worth having in your party. Less excited that there's a "no weaving" spec for the bard, making it lean more towards just being a plain buff bot....
Q) What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
The weaving of abilities to flip back and forth between certain support angles through the level 25+ passive looks very fun (mana reg, hp reg, movement speed, etc). It is not as much weaving and managing of spells/buffs as i'd like but it's great that it's possible.
Q) Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
Concerned about the fact it has a buff bot spec. Simply pressing a couple of buttons to have buff aura's up that benefit the party, and just a handful of actives seems very stale. I would like to see something more active to have these strong passive buffs up from level 1 instead of 25. Or perhaps a skill combo has to be met or a key combo has to be met to passively buff everything in an area or once for x amount of minutes, instead of an aura....
Q) What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
For what it is right now it looks quite smooth. I like the idea that it's going to empower classes to do better in their respective niche. The things the buffs do is also great. Maybe it would be great to have the ability to augment range versus power, and power versus range. For example: have a shorter range (from 30m>15m) for a 20-25% increase in spell effectiveness or something.
Q) Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them! Haven't seen any other then flute, but animations look good. SFX is also going in the right direction imo, nothing too obnoxious or overbearing when it is spammed.
It feels good!
The toolkit provides a decent/good support ability.
The Melody / Song / Dance (+ masteries) aspects are appealing too.
The saga mechanism is super great. I love this « building the ultimate skill effect in advance » type of mechanism.
I also liked the « trump card » effect of Gambit.
And I think it would be cool to add a bit more of this kind of « flavor » to the kit.
For example having a skill which adds random status effect to the next offensive skill of an ally.
Or random buffs on an ally.
Or a « counter » skill which negates / return the next offensive skill used by the target.
A bit more of these kind of « chaotic/funny/annoying » things.
Visuals & sounds effect
Most of the visuals and sound effects are great !! I especially loved the shielding dance template on the ground, and the Discordance notes
I'm just not a fan of the « very flashy » visual effects, like Flourish. It's a bit too much for me.
The dances look very cool too. I like how they look adequate with the effect provided by the skill.
I just felt like the dance movements were too much « suppressed » while the character was running.
It felt like the upper body was dancing the whole time, but the lower body was doing some more-or-less-normal running, plus some « finishing dance move » at the end of the skill.
It would make more sense to me that the character performs « more obvious » dance moves when moving and using a dance skill at the same time.
Synergies with players
I recall that some time ago it has been mentionned during a livestream or an AMA that the bard might be able to throw some template on the ground, and that if the players get to some specific locations of the template (getting in formation) it would activate some big bonus.
Although I'm not sure about this specific example, I'd like to see some kind of interactions between (and from) other players with the bard.
Like hearing a bard singing a song is great, it gives bonus.
But if a dozen players join the Bard singing the song, it it should have a much greater impact.
I'm not sure how exactly this kind of stuff could be implemented, but I believe it would be a good feature to have.
I felt from the livestream that the Bard was indeed supporting the party, but he was on his own to do so. « The Bard is interacting with the party, but the party is not following/interacting with the Bard » sort of a feeling.
Synergies between Bards
Let's say I'm in a party with 3 mages. There'll be a rain of spells and destruction.
Now I'm in a party with 3 clerics. We'll get tons and tons of healing.
Now... we're 3 bards in a party.
Would the songs effect stack to some degree ? What about the melodies ? The dances ?
I'm a bit concerned that if the answer is no, having several bards in a party would be way more detrimental to the party compared to having several [whatever other class it is].
Yes, they would be able to activate all the melodies at once for example, but it does not feel satisfying.
If a party with 3 bards needs a lot of healing, it would make sense that each bard singing a healing melody would add to the healing to some degree for example.
Thus perhaps having some extra synergies available when several bards are in a same party would be a good thing too.
Spellbook
Also, I'm a big fan of the floatting spellbook and its animations. It's definitely cool.
Its size is decent too, since I believe it should be visible enough while playing on a 3rd person view. We could see the head of the bard hiding part of the book during the livestream in such cases, but the book was still decently visible.
1
SolarisMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Love the implementation we've seen so far of the Bard class. Especially love the art direction/armor. My god it's gorgeous. The idea of the Bard's music telling 'stories' is seriously cool. I'd love it if the Bard could wield a conductor's baton (wand) while casting. So far so great!
• How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
The style of preview was great as is standard. I appreciate that the gameplay was conducted by someone who is deaply familiar with the archetype kit (sorry Stephen 😉)
• What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
• Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
The potential of the active powerful support bard combining healing, buffs, debuffs, CC is great. I started and most of the time mained sword singer or bladedancer in Lineage 2 and loved the archetype especially in physical focused party setups which allowed the bard to act also as effective support dps and not just support tank and buffer with no dmg since in magical dmg focused parties you as a bard focused on magic dmg enhancements and defence and bards did not have any magic dmg skills. I hope in AoC both ways are going to be viable, since from the current setup of buffs and debuffs it seams the party setup will also tend towards specialization (ie. Mage parties or archer parties or melee physical parties) to take advantage of the specific melodies and dances that bard will provide. I also hope the higher lvl skills or auguments will allow melee kind of blade dancer style of support dps with ability to enhance other fighters/rogues to do more physical dmg.
• Is there anything in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
• What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
At the moment what concerns me is lack of direct mana heal skill like there is the HP heal using the serenade skill. The pensive melody is very slow and weak for bard to truly fulfill the „mana battery“ role in the party. I can see that the weapon combo effect when you have pensive melody is another boost, but my concern is that the weapon combo effect will not synergize well with the weaving mechanic (especially if on higher lvl you will weave more than 2 melodies) than when in the pinch in the need of mana you will need to switch to pensive melody and brake your rotation which won’t feel great. This would be remedied if bard had another direct mana heal serenade type skill and use the weapon combo finisher pensive melody combination only in really mana intensive situations.
Another concern is the current saga mechanic. The different themes are interesting idea, but in practice will feel very inflexible. You build up for 90s for a one type of saga, but in those 90s the situation could change drastically and you would need completely different saga and again must build up for 90s and then it could be again too late. This mechanic could result in very frustrating gameplay. Especially when there is no sagas for the combination of themes 2 and 1 (for example 2 tragedy and 1 comedy) because you use 2 stories with tragedy theme in a row, but then the situation calls for a story with another theme and you will be unable to use any saga because you don’t have 3 of a kind or 1 of each. That also feels frustrating and inflexible.
My suggestion is to make themes a generic resource gained by using any story and then have several different types of sagas of which you could spec into only some. These sagas should be more support oriented, for example it could combine great buff for whole raid/party and debuffs and dmg over time to the enemies. (the fireball theme looked quite out of character actually even though the lore aspect and vfx idea is great).
• Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
The vfx is nice I am not really vfx kind of guy but my main concern with vfx is the ability to see what is going on in party or mass pvp situation. I really hope in very flexible optionality of toning down vfx effects. My current idea is to have the option to turn down vfx by individual skills with the option to separate between party/raid/side of siege/enemy. It is important to have option for example only to see incoming aoe skills, or your party members skills (so you can keep track where are your party members compared to the rest of your allies) etc. More granularity of options the better.
All in all thank you for the great work you are doing creating this game and I love the direction of the bard.
I was overall very pleased with what was showcased.
Especially that you can press something and you get explanations for status effects on skill mouseover.
The Bard Archetype Preview was really good. I really liked the concept and the clear style of the bard. The animations was so good. Top notch! I cant wait to see other instruments (violin) .
The skills themselves where interesting and had variety, offered mobility and some cc and im really excited to see how it plays and what would bard hybrids look like.
I LOVED the Saga concept and i am curious as to how you build it up and the various effects and animations it can offer.
SFX was amazing too but i need to wait and see how it blends with in game music in various areas.
I would really like to be able to see the area that my spells will affect before casting them for both allies and enemies. With the animations showed it seems with practice you could be able to tell the limits of the affected area.
Now lets talk about the spellbook.
I have to say i actually liked the size. It could be smaller but im not sure it will feel the same. Depends on the vibe you are trying to achieve. Massive magic tome doing slow and big aoe attacks sound cool.
i liked how alive it was
i liked how the pages where turning and had different pictures in. Imagine a legendary spellbook having actual lore pictures in it from the boss it dropped or the area/dungeon it was from.
if you make it be on the back or waist as well or even better to be able to choose or unlock an idle stance/animation i cant wait to see it on a dunir or nikua. I imagine it will be the size of that shield xD
Keep up the good and hard work.
By now the bar has been set too high and is only getting higher.
I can't wait to get blown away by summoner.
Edit: More things like random flips when jumping pls and a place that shows how many consecutive we have done.
PS: I can't wait to hear about the October date as i may have to alter my octoberfest plans...or combine them!
1. the bard is visually and playfully very successful. Dancing, music, stories and taro cards? Simply a perfect selection. And throwing tomatoes. Compared to other Mmorpg's, it's a great success
2. the bard is the main support and a must in battles. So many buffs that are good for a group. I love bards because he can also do the most in terms of roleplay.
3. the damage or the damage attack plus effects would have to be adjusted a bit. The dances are perhaps a bit too long in terms of animation
4. lord of the rings online the bard was great. He was heal support and well designed with all buffs. Damage-wise, you could also play him solo. Ashes is going in a good direction
5. the dances are too long otherwise the optics of the attacks are great. Good variety, nice to look at and nice and dynamic to play.
6. the effects are good and not too much. Sounds were missing a lot of course the melodies have to be well covered with music. Music is the most important part of the bard. every instrument has to be tuned
Deepl translate
Aktiver deutscher Ashes of Creation Content Creator. Schaut gern auf meinem Youtubekanal vorbei !
This is the most excited I've been about a class showcase so far - this is the first class that has a playstyle that fits what I wanted (and I was planning on going rogue)
I am SO GLAD you leaned into the discordant/debuffing side of the bard. The game lacked a clear hexmaster type character. There's a very clear build for focusing on debuffs and discord, and I can't wait to see what happens with cleric death augments, rogue augments or even tank options (debuffing/taunting siren seems like a niche I'd like to play).
The lighting and visual effects were painful in this video. I really liked the dark interiors and the way the light came through the windows, however the spell effects are so bright in contrast to the dark interior it was literally painful on the eyes. I could see this being migraine inducing quickly. Also there were a few times when in the cramped interior the bard's sleep ability literally filled the whole screen making it impossible for anyone to see what they were doing (maybe this has a use case though in pvp)
Overall - this was a great stream and thank you very much.
Edit: Oh I didn't look at the prompt question, this one is something I wanted to touch on; Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Guild Wars 1 Mesmer is still my favourite class and nothing comes close. Lore wise they are actors and bards, and so most fit this achetype. Warriors didn't have any sort of taunt abilities, so in Vanilla GW1 Mesmers were effectively the tank, but they tanked by preventing damage - countering spells, debuffing enemies, and crowd control.
I was a master Mesmer in both PvP and PvE. In the early days no one really understood what a Mesmer did - but most groups realised that they did way better when a good Mesmer was in their party compared to when they did the same missions without one.
I would very much like to see especially the Bard/Tank (Siren) be able to protect the party through debuffs and crowd control. This allows them to meet some of the Tank's roles of protecting the rest of the party but in a very uniquely Bard style. You've already given the Bard some taunt abilities in their base kit as well.
I do hope that at some point the future instruments are something we can discover in the world and our crafters can build as real physical items. That would be cool.
Also, I hope Bear McCreary's career is greatly boosted by how he knocks this unique opportunity out of the park. Imagine skill audio being woven into the music of the game/biome... you think we could get a dopamine hit off the sound?
This is the best class we've been shown so far. I loved everything about it. Incorporating all types of bard performance (melody, dance etc) and having it come together into a saga is amazing.
The bard looks great. I know it is still a work in progress, but it would be nice to have some choices in regards to the music your bard plays in game. Music is taste and everyone has their preferences.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
I am excited to have a bard in my team because they enhance everything else your group does. Having a heavy support is a must for a game like Ashes and for RP elements.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I am a little concerned that if your group can't find a bard, you may get out matched easily. I am hoping for strong considerations to giving bard secondary archetypes good buffs as well. To lessen the impact if you can't get a bard main.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them
They looked great to me. Some instrument choices would be nice.
On a side note. Can we not have the dwarfs jump roll? It looks a bit silly to me. Or maybe have jump options during the character creation process? That roll just makes me laugh. I feel like the dwarfs should be like a heavy boulder, smashing the ground with their surprising weight and might.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I was wondering if it has been in consideration if the buff values of the Bard skills would add a value that scales with magical power. For example 20% to attack speed + 0.02% per 1 Magical Power and not just 25% to attack speed.
I have not seen something like this in the games I have played, but it would be a motivation for Bards to work on their gear.
The guild and groups would also be interested in helping the bard to advance in gear.
And it would be a motivation for the Bard to enchant his gear in late game to get some extra percentage. To maybe end up with 31% attack speed in late game.
I would like to see this on all buffs. Of course the numbers and with which attribute they scale should be tested.
- I love how you are rewarded with dynamic music that blends in with the background music as you play the class. This is awesome. I think it would also be cool to have an element of skill and rhythm incoporated into the sound design as well, which would require having an element of rhythm in the skill/class design. Just like the fighter lets you gain "mechanical" momentum as you the actual player feel and improve your momentum of mastering the class during a fight, it would be cool if there was an aspect of rhythm/timing for the bard player to master and have that reward represented through the mechanics/sounds. I feel like this could be some kind of timing mini-game of something, or even just using skills at different rhythmic patterns or something, idk I haven't fleshed out the idea too much but I think it would be fun and interesting, especially when paired with the unique dynamic sound design. I think its also just natural for there to be an emphasis on timing mixups for abilities in a competitive game for baiting and mindgames and stuff, and some other classes already have timing based abilities (like being able to change up the timing of when a skill is used), so the bard is a natural fit for this kind of concept of timing/rhythmic gameplay mastery. Maybe there are unique rotations when skills are used at a certain tempo and there are branching paths for these rotations to represent a variety of common scenarios the player might find themeslves in, so they can naturally adapt the rhythm to that scenario and get a unique rotation, and if they pull it off then the dynamic music kicks in with a musical medley weaved in to show that you nailed it. Might work, might not, just a fun thought.
2. Support gameplay and High skill ceiling
A) A big part of group support gameplay is both encouraging certain group formations, and being able to adapt to support groups that are in various formations.
It is nice to have a generous aoe effect to support formations that are spread out, and to also have support abilities that are more focused on a tightly grouped up formation. It might be fun to consider having multiple individual smaller aoe effects that can be placed simultaneously to encourage group members to take a certain position in order to get the benefits, or also just to add a bit of interactivity to the bard player in order to provide those buffs to group members who are spread out. Maybe the effects of each individual aoe are even class specific to really empower you to give specific direction to your group in a clear and concise way on how you want them positioned to best support them (like blue aoe is best for tank to step into, green for ranger, etc.), and maybe these could be stacked on a specific location when you want your group to gather together at a chokepoint or something. Or maybe some directional support abilities like action targeted beams or cone abilities or something interactive like that can be fun for support I think. Just a thought. Maybe you could apply this logic of "soft incentives for group combat functions" to things like target priority as well, by being able to do something like linking tethers between an enemy and a group member for certain effects. This could be in order to encourage them to interact with each other, such as buffing a specific group member as long as they are targeting a specific mob. This could be useful for prioritizing certain targets and group tactics, especially if combines with the other aspects of combat like formations. Might be worth exploring.
I think the idea of interactive group abilties can be fun too. Things like throwing a teammate, or ramming a teammate out of the way (possibly even physics based). I think these can set up for some cool group strategies, synergies, and tactics, and could be useful group support options.
I also made a thread recently called "support roles for siege equipment/vehicles/mounts" which could also potentially apply to a support class in some ways so I'll include that reference as a part of my bard feedback. It talks about some unique aspects of a fun group support role through my experiences with other games with large scale group combat such as the Battlefield franchise.
Overall I really like the idea of an interactive support class that weaves between different class skills, so hopefully there is a good variety of ability options with various range/pushes/pulls/side-knocks/effects etc. to support this kind of tactical gameplay. Again, i'll make my usual reference to my past thread called "proactive+reactive offense/defense/movement options baked in at various ranges", as a part of my usual class feedback to hopefully provide additional class gameplay insight and ability inspiration. I would really like to see a high skill ceiling for the combat in this game, making use of both planned and reactive tactics, spacial reasoning, distance management, etc. to make it as engaging as possible.
B- Another idea I saw others point out that I like, is allowing more flexibility with the sagas so you can adapt to the situation at hand
C) I also wanted to second the idea of mana sustain not relying solely on your class composition and group members. You should be able to play the game without waiting for a group member to top off your mana. This should probably only be a thing for super challenging encounters where perfect coordination is required. Otherwise its boring to wait around constantly for that support instead of playing and using abilities. There can be an aspect of mana management but it should probably be at an individual level, with some group-based mana support sprinkled in; you shouldn't have to wait around just because you don't have a bard in your party constantly topping you off.
3. Class fantasy, experiential storytelling, and role-play
A) A big aspect of the class fantasy is being able to role-play as that class. Do you feel like a bard? How evocative are the abilities and the gameplay? I would say effects, animation, and sound is very evocative and is an absolute success so far. I love the expressiveness and silliness of the dances, I love the visuals, animations, and sound effects for the abilities (the "flourish" dash is especially awesome), I love the idea for the "pop up books" for the sagas, etc. They all evoke the intended feelings quite well imo from an immersion standpoint. There is definitely a lot of charm and character in the effects.
Regarding the class fantasy gameplay, I already addressed some ideas earlier to potentially look into regarding the role-play of the rhythmic aspect of the bard, and how to potentially improve the player interactivity/engagement with the class to better immerse oneself into that class fantasy. I want to feel like I am playing how a bard would play, I want as a player to actually express and role-play bard like behaviors. I want as a player to actually be an inspiration on the battlefield, and to actually humilate my opponent with goofy abilities and whatnot. I think there is definitely a good start for that.
For one, I love the tomato toss idea. Abilities like the tomato throw really help express the class fantasy as well, because instead of just using abilities with cool names, you are actual role-playing through abilities like tomato throw and experiencing a funny/humiliating moment in the gameplay that is meant to be just that, which is good design imo. Stuff like this helps you really experience the class fantasy, to role-play, and to create memorable interactions and stories even during something as frenetic as combat. I enjoy when the design factors in that expressiveness, storytelling, and role-play represented through the gameplay mechanics and hope to see more of this kind of stuff. Let my actual gameplay humiliate my opponent by shutting down their key abilities by using a well timed tomato throw, let me as a player inspire my group by rallying them into a strategic formation (dancing during a battle and "styling" on enemies are also good examples of "inspirational" gameplay), etc. This is all part of systemic experiential storytelling, expression of fantasy, role-play, and evocative design. Those are key aspects for me and I like a lot of what I see so far on this front and hope they continue and expand on stuff like this.
B- I really like how versatile and comprehensive the bard's thematic design is, by incoporating melodies, dances, songs, stories, and sagas all in one class. I hope they also incoporate more of the "deck of cards/gambler" theme as well. I do think Gambit is a really cool ability in that direction.
I look forward to seeing how evocative and creative they get in expressing these different class themes without relying on words or explanation. Things like portraying the ideas of tragedy, comedy, etc. through the songs, stories, dances and other abilities will be very interesting.
I do think the customization of music should be an aspect of the bard as well. Things like having choices for the actual sound that plays, the instruments used, or being able to make custom music. Having that choice while integrating it into the overall class design and direction could really add to the class appeal.
Personally this is the kind of music I would want to play as a bard:
C) For even more class fantasy expression, I think it would be awesome to have unique mechanics/responses from different npcs to different thematic abilities
I think it would be cool if npcs had unique personalities and their behaviors were very reactive when interacting with class abilties. Maybe some mobs are "sensitive" and react differently to being "humiliated", so if you hit them with a tomato right before they get off their signature move maybe they get "flustered" or something and throw a tantrum or whatever. Stuff like that is interesting to me.
D) Regarding the expressiveness of the spellbook weapon, I love everything about this approach to the spellbook. I love that it floats and animates independently, I love the comically large size and how chunky and powerful it looks, I love the animations and effects, and I like how its a more heavy-duty magic based weapon. These aspects make it unique and cool I think. There's something about it that just appeals to me and I think I would end up using it if they stick in this direction with it. I didn't notice if this was already a thing or not, but it would also be cool if the book flips through its pages between different "chapters" in the book as you cycle through its weapon combo.
The spell book was perfect. Loved it more than the bard archetype tbh. Was one of the coolest weapons in any mmo that I have played. People don't like unique but it should be kept as designed imo.
Doesn't need changes or at least give the option to keep current size
I'm a support player (on L2 : PP/WC/BD/SWS; on other mmo : Aede/bard on AA/etc). My best EVER bard is ISS enchanter.
I dont know how to feel about your bard, i dont really feel the power of his support.
You should try to get 2 groups to play in the same area, one with a bard and the other with a DPS/heal instead of the bard.
If the bard doesn't make a huge difference, then it needs to be reworked.
A support which, in a group, is not a "game changer" will be used in a roundabout way.
Perhaps the power of these buffs should vary according to the number of players in the party?
As for the rest, it's hard to give an opinion without having been able to feel and try out the class. It's one of the hardest classes to grasp through a video, as it requires a thorough understanding of the gameplay and important elements (movement/speed attack/crit/etc)...see you in A2
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview? Very excited to be playing the Bard in A2, looks like a lot of different aspects of being a bard is incorporated into the design (Music, Dance, Singing, Story telling) and seems to be the most fleshed out in regards to class identity.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype? The mobility aspect combined with the AOE's will certainly bring a lot of active gameplay, which was something I was worried about (as opposed to just standing around and playing songs). It feels like a party with a bard is absolutely going to have the advantage over a party that is missing a bard.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview? As others have said, having the instrument of choice be the sound that plays in all of the "Music" skills would be best. I LOVE the dances and songs, but having a drum play for the shielding dance while I am wielding a violin seems to take away from the instrument choice. I also feel as if some of the abilities are a little TOO comical, like the "Get off the stage" and "Quick Wit" tomato throw. I simply did not enjoy the visual effects for those skills, and I would like to see them changed myself.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain! What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Nothing of note here, other than you guys seem to have better bard mechanics than most games. Kudos to you on that.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them! Some of the melody animations end quite abruptly. I would like to draw your attention to the "Epic Melody" animation, that just seems to go from animation to standing pose. It just seems a little... stiff? Perhaps having the animation/dance/breakdown when you play that skill slowly taper off would look better in my opinion. Also the tomato and get off the stage abilities just look way too comical to me.
How do you feel about the Bard Archetype Preview?
- Excited! It looks like there are some solid bones put into this skeleton. I like that the Bard modifies so many features (ie CC and PC Movement Speed) in addition to primary skills (attack, def, healing)
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
- Flexibility! My reference is the Bard from EverQuest. That Bard was difficult to play, but incredibly rewarding when you figured it out. I was really intrigued by the minigame-esque "Saga building"
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
- I am concerned about how a Bard can solo engage with combat (PvE).
- I think the mobility is awesome! IMO a Bard should be mobile, not static. With that said, it might be cool to look at improving the effect of the spell if the Bard stays still for X% of the cast.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
- I would like to see some cross skill type combos.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
- The sounds are pretty cool, The VFX look clean and are easy to see who is impacted ( it might be nice to get a phantom area of effect when you hover over the spell to determine if you need to reposition for better coverage).
I didn't read any posts, so sorry if others covered this already, but please make the talent that lets you play two songs just automatic rather than a button mashing minigame.
Forcing people to repeatedly hit a button every 20 seconds is, in my opinion, a design choice that's been tried before and failed. EQ did it with bards, in the end added /twist because it was terrible. DAoC used to let you twist songs by going back and forth, but in the end just moved to letting you have two up at once. Twisting adds no value or gameplay for the average player.
Hitting buttons every 20 seconds does not take skill beyond not forgetting to do it when combat gets crazy. That's easy to happen though, so most players will either NOT twist, probably go for the better chant option, just use a somewhat complicated AHK macro someone will write that gives you hotkeys for whatever two songs you want, tap that, and way you go, get or exasperate some innate carpal tunnel syndrome, or play some other class. Last one isn't really an issue if the single chant but stronger talent is viable enough groups don't care.
The "stacks" twisting idea is cute, I'll give you that. Being able to have 3 chants up momentarily, but only for 7 seconds is interesting, but given the requisite low power of a chant designed to run all the time having one more chant for two or three ticks, but then loosing another for a bit after that, probably isn't going to may any difference at all, unless there are mechanics not shown in the video.
So, from my perspective, the stacks-then switch idea, well an interesting gimmick for the aforementioned button mashing minigame, lacks in any gameplay depth at all. If you let it tick up to 60 stacks and you could have 3 songs up for 20 seconds every minute, that might make it have some use. But that's a solution to a problem that doesn't need to be there. If you want people to have 3 songs up every so often... LET them have 3 songs up every so often. A simple proc every 60 seconds for a 20 second cast of the next song key pressed would do the trick.
I get that you want a unique mechanic to set your bard apart, but, again in my opinion, you need to go back to the drawing board on that one. It's annoying, it adds no gameplay vs. the alternatives, and for those that choose not to macro it, it adds a regular unavoidable hand movement, even during downtime, that can after hours and hours of gameplay can cause literal pain.
Ya asked for my opinion, there it is! Thanks for asking at least.
/cheers
I'm going to sound negative here, but the Bard showcase was why I have been adamant for years that the classes need to be done before combat gets augmented and polished. There has been some type of scope creep it appears. The Bard was very busy and engaging with different ways to weave in the songs, powerful attacks, powerful buffs, and powerful controls. What's happened now is every other class now seems bland or even boring. Ranger might have some fun with their aerial attacks, but that is one attack out of an entire kit. The rest of the classes will probably need to be re-tooled.
Also, it looks like we have migrated away from every class being able to use every weapon (which is unfortunate). If this is the case, I hope that there will be different groups of similar weapons. For example, the Bards can use song/hymn books, magical foci, or other types of hand-held objects that either amplify their performance or amplify their magic (thematically).
As for other games that you may want to emulate, I really liked the system that Lord of the Rings Online had. It was supposed to be a system that encouraged teamwork, but they had buffs that happened when different types of skills were used in concert and in a certain order. The Saga system seems very similar, so that may be a place where you would install this. Basically you would use a certain type of heal, a certain type of buff, a certain type of attack and a group-wide effect would occur. Importantly, the skills you may want to use commonly in combat may not be the skills you need for your target effect. For example; the Bard does their Shield Dance, and the next type of skill for the wanted effect may be the move speed aura. However, it may be more imperative to use the heal aura. In this way, the Bard needs to figure out if the immediate action is an emergency, or if the Saga is more important and could warrant a tank dying or an enemy mage being able to get off their aoe.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
Love that it's a true support, instead of half a healer with CC or something. Some really good ideas for empowering specific members of the party with targeted buffs at the right time.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview? Excited:
I'm excited that you dared to put in some majorly impactful abilities like the health swap in there. Good to see that you don't shy away from strong effects, even if they'll be likely to be divisive when they leave so much room for annoying PVP opponents, and potentially negatively affecting allies.
Same for the siege dragon castle animation. Love the willingness to be bold.
I cannot say it too often, please make sure you add enough variety of impactful skills, so there's as few "best in slot" skillsets as possible, and instead just variety of playstyles and strategies that make you think about how to adapt your preparation and reactions for every new player you run into, so people actually pay attention to who they are fighting.
Concerned:
- Please make sure that all in-combat movespeed buffs have very high cooldowns, so distance and range are something that matters. Cooldowns are important for all impactful AoE buffs, but movespeed might be the most important one to balance.
- I'm a bit worried that Clerics won't have enough to offer small parties. Between, healing/shielding, mana regen, strength buffs, cooldown/attack speed buffs, defensive buffs, cleansing. and perhaps debuffs/cc, make sure the Cleric has something that makes them worthwhile to have in small-scale PvE.
I think perhaps cleansing and some amount of mana regen could be nice.
Of course you don't need to give them *much* more than healing strength, because one of the big advantages of having a dedicated healer will be the flexibility of being ready for PvP ganks in PvX scenarios, so there will always be some use for Clerics once players are high-level enough to be entering contested territory. Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
This is vague and has nothing to do with balance, but I don't think you can do anything wrong by letting Witcher's Dandelion (and the related theatre quests) influence the class identity.
Just anything that expresses the keywords charisma and storyteller is good.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
- I think one thing I would like to see more of is persistent glowy effects of strategically important buffs on players. I know you don't want things to become overly flashy, but make sure you don't sacrifice interesting decisionmaking influenced by impactful buffs.
Not everything needs to be visible; sometimes it's okay that the player has to figure out themselves if they think the opponent has a certain buff on them, if they weren't there to see the cast.
But if it's visible on the target opponent health bar UI, it should probably be visible in 3d, and if it can't be visible in 3d, perhaps it shouldn't be seen on the UI.
- For combos, there's a thread where the CC reduction ability Anthem of Alacrity was discussed as being underwhelming, and undeserving of its high single-target investment (cast time, etc.)
The way I think short duration single-target buffs like that could be made to shine more dominantly is by adding combo abilities that harmonise with them.
One very rewarding way of introducing this would be to have a 12 second mana-restoration-*per-cast* buff in the Cleric skilltree, allowing the Bard and Cleric to produce one supercharged nuke together.
By making the mana restoration a flat value scaling with cast instances instead of a percentage of the mana cost spent, you'd strongly reward long, fast combos with cooldown reduction. And at the same time, you'd keep control over the balancing to make sure the combo doesn't just circumvent mana resource balancing where people just spam their highest-cost spells because it'd be free.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
It's nice that the sound design has put great consideration into ensuring nothing becomes overbearing or annoying, but I do think there would be room for some singing voices in the songs. A few a capella vibe women's notes for some skills and men's notes for others could be perfectly appropriate for announcing that a Bard is on the battlefield and feeling like they're performing in impressions of different people for us. You can make them quieter if multiple Bards are too close to the player.
Inspiration:
My favourite game had a healer spell that allowed healers to become immune to damage for 10-20 seconds at high cost and CD, with the additional balancing mechanisms of inability to do anything that deals damage (including buffs with damaging side effects) and drastically restricted mana regeneration tools.
Since the Cleric doesn't really have an Oh-Shit button of that capacity, perhaps the Bard could be granted an ability like that. You could restrict it to be only cast on players who haven't dealt damage in the last 15 seconds, and Clerics could coordinate with their allies who should be prepared to receive that ability.
General observations:
- CC immunity probably shouldn't be absolute. It should reduce duration/effectiveness by a percental value, and/or downgrade hard CC into related soft CC. (e.g. stun into slow, etc.)
Tanky players shouldn't be rewarded for eating and surviving a few seconds of stuns by becoming unstoppable. It should be enough to allow them to do something and reduce the efficiency of the CC, without turning them invincible.
In return you could make the effect a bit longer.
Something I like about the existing CC reduction system is that it looks like it ensures that CC that gets stopped by cleanse will only factor into the immunity threshold tracker until it's been dispelled, which is pretty much perfect.
- The book weapon type received a lot of complaints on the stream. Partially by people who don't understand the weapon system yet, but still. I think it looks great, but it needs more vivid idle animations, and the default idle location should be offset further to the side of the player than straight in front.
Otherwise, I think the design is fantastic, and I hope you don't let the loud complaints about missing instrument weapons make you stray too far from an internally consistent system for merging weapon choice flexibility and class identity. The skills should speak for themselves by being fun to theorycraft and develop an individual playstyle with, not by adding in gimmicks to appeal to a flashy stereotype.
The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
I really like Bard. I think the archetype is in great spot.
I have few ideas that may improve it:
1. Another passive to choose between Crescendo and Counterpoint - Song of Rest - Cheerful Melody, Pensive Melody have 3x times effectivenes when you are out of combat.
2. Quick Wit change - Jest with target ally, healing for (150%🢆) (healing) and applying Glee. giving them high morale (opposite of demoralize). Ridicule target enemy, damaging them for (100%🢆) bludgeon damage and applying Demoralized.
3. Bardic Inspiration - greatly improving effectiveness (quality) of all of fiendly target's abilities for a very short time, cooldown - medium length.
(tanks: aegis radius increased, shield assault trips instead of staggering and so on;
cleric: Condemn snares instantly )
4. Another take on Quick Wit change - Make Bardic Inspiration from point 3 (above) friendly target version of Quick Wit and opposite of it as Quick Wits enemy target version - decrease effectivness of enemy's skills.
I believe it may be too much work to be worth implementing but this version of Quick Wit would make Bard very high skill ceiling while other skills provide low skill floor. I would make bard very interesting to play with and will make it have very cool interactions because having very big effect but low duration makes coordination and timing increadibly important.
I also dont like flat dmg reduction Quick Wit currently has.
5.Bard should be specialist of interactions between his CC abilities and other archetypes CC abilities. Like with cleric's Chains of Restraint.
6. I would also want to see bard specific cc/debuffs like charmed/hipnotized. It could be themed similar to CC abilities of Tayuya from Naruto.
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KrastyMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 30
Just one thing, better textures than plastic looking textures. (on book and shield)
PS: (armors looks good, bard archetype looks good, but need testing like everything. One thing to think about - I can't imagine choosing a book as my main weapon and playing as warrior - how would they complement each other? Will some books have STR atributes? Or on other side some great swords have INT atributes? we will see i gues)
First of all, thank you for the wonderful stream. I had a great time watching it live, even though it was past midnight for me when the stream started.
My thoughts:
Things I liked/found promising:
- I am aware that I am not the only one who suggested that class presentations be done by developers for better mechanical demonstration, but it is still very(!) nice to be listened to. So a big thank you for that. It is very appreciated.
I think Bucky did a fantastic job during the stream showcasing Bard's synergy with the party. Clutch superheals, well-timed CC, and overall support with utility. Well done.
And a thank you to Steven for stepping aside and letting the developer of the class shine. Not everyone would. It is appreciated.
- Sound effects hit the spot. A little bit of calibration of the volume is still needed, but overall, I think it was superb in this aspect.
- Visual effects were nice. Some of them need more love, some are too much (Ill expand on this later), but overall, as a concept, I loved the direction in which this is going.
Even though I previously noted several times that archetypes need to stick to a two-to-three-colored palette to avoid visual fireworks, I think Bard is the only case where a bundle of different colors is acceptable. Thematically and mechanically.
- Its hard to say what Bard will become at higher levels, not to mention adding a second archetype, but what we see today feels like several big steps in the right direction. I will probably never play Bard class (the closest I ever played to Bard was probably Scald in Pathfinder:WOTR...no more Pathfinder games...I am devastated and unconsoleble), but I found the mobility of the gameplay very appealing. You dance here, you dance there, jump to the nasty mob and CC it, perform an urgent CPR on a careless DD, shift to a proper position for maximum efficiency, and hail fire on pathetic mortals. Very dynamic and fun. I don't know, but it felt like Bucky had a great time playing.
- The Grimoire turned out to be majestic. Probably my favorite weapon type as a summoner main. I know this is silly, but looking at the current size of it, I imagined that it would be super cool if in melee range grimoire AAs turned into bites. So if a monster or other player gets too close, Grimoire grows some magical teeth and starts biting instead of shooting (like a mimic, yeah).
Things I thought needed improvement and overall thoughts on some individual skills:
- Have seen a lot of concerns about single-target skills. Lack of them to be presize. I think I agree to some extent. Obviously, Bard should not have the same magnitude as, say, Warrior, Summoner, or Archer in terms of solo farming, but right now it feels like it would take forever to level up Bard. And I don't even think duo is the solution because two DDs would obviously faceroll trash much faster. Or any other viable combination like tank+AOEbot, two summoners, healer+DD (to farm elites), and so on. Right now, it seems like Bard would not be a burden only in the lvling parties of 3+ and an absolute monster in full-parties. Most players start solo, then find a guild and meet new friends, and right now, low levels appear to be misery for beginner Bards.
- Cheerful Melody. Everything seems in order. I would add shield percentage increase passive in addition to healing.
- Pensive Melody. There should be increased mana regeneration out of combat and during meditation.
- Epic Melody. I would change it a little so that when you play this melody for the first few seconds, you get an extra speed buff.
- Cathardic Melody. I really don't like the extra randomness added without any good reason. It makes no sense here. Just make it a 25% lifesteal instead of a 25% chance for a 100% lifesteal. In the short term, let's say Mage casts 10 spells, and this 25% never occurs. Infuriating. Unnesessary. Less gambling and more planning!
- Menacing Melody. Its fine. Nothing to add.
- Flourish. Everything is great. Maybe add some minor effect when passing through enemies or allies?
- Shielding Dance. Everything is great.
- Nimble Dance. I'm not a big fan of stacking movespeed buffs. It gets out of control really fast (sorry...). You can change it into a significant damage mitigation buff for a short time or a buff that grants others long rolls (if, like you said, the purpose of this dance is to avoid heavy attacks).
- Mesmerizing Dance. Nice. Tone down the animation a little, maybe?
- Maddening Dance. Same as the one above.
- Get off the stage. Needs a bigger pushback.
- Quick wit. Throwing tomatoes is fun, but I once again would tone down the explosion. It feels like several tomatoes right now.
- Lovely serenade. For an ability that locks you down, the effect feels weak. Either make it heal more or make sure it continues for some time even after the cast.
- Anthem. Great! Maybe add the option to cast it on enemies with the opposite effect?
- Chilling Lament. It's a no from me. Mechanically, it is nice, but thematically, it is so out of place. Random cold spell. Why not make it either a sonic or an illusion spell?
- Dusk lulubelly. Animation is beautiful, but it is way over the top.
- Discordence. Its nice!
- Gambit. My favorite one (even though it is usually a Warlock type of skill)
- The apocalipce. I love the mechanic. It needs some work, but I think it will turn out great. Because it is made to be a story, fire doesn't feel out of place.
I felt like it captured the class fantasy very well. Fun, frenetic, and incorporated a variety of elements from a bards in prior games.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
I love supporting my teammates as a cleric and having someone who helps to enhance my experience is always welcome.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I felt the tiniest bit let down that the Bard did not have the ability to enhance regeneration while resting. I hoped Bard would be the character that helped minimize downtime.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I like them so far but I feel like I'll have to see how they play in A2 and what is proposed as a balanced environment.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
I liked them. I felt like the animations while playing were still a work in progress but I'd like to see the animations persist a bit longer if not interrupted by another ability.
From a MMORPG 'mechanics' perspective, my prefered playstyle is utility support.
As a 'fantasy' class in RPGs (both digital and tabletop), I really enjoy playing Bards.
Based on the Bard archetype preview video, I'm in love with what I've seen so far.
The whole kit just oozes the right flavour. From passive melodies to actively knee-sliding into a bunch of enemies to land a clutch disruption through CC.
I personally strongly prefer a very pro-active form of support gameplay, and not so much the sit back and heal whoever gets damaged type of gameplay. Hopefully, the Bard as a class will offer sufficient 'value' for a party, regardless of party size (including solo play). I'm not much of a PvE guy, but I love exploring large open worlds and reading all the lore things and quests I find. A lot of pepple don't have the patience for that so as a result I end up leveling/ grinding alone. As far as PvP is concerned, I like the smaller party raids/ skirmishes better than all out zerg wars. So hopefully the Bard as a class will shine in these scnarios, and not be designed/ optimised towards a 'full party'.
As far as instruments/ weapons go, I am fine with instruments being used for flavour, and not as actual weapons. After all (IMO), a Bard should not exclusively be a 'musician'. The shared pool of different weapons accessible for all (or most) classes reminds me of Guild Wars 2. The customisation this adds to the playstile of each class, is something I greatly look forward to.
In GW2, I've been exclusively playing a dagger/ warhorn Tempest (Elementalist) ever since Tempest were added to the game. The fluid gameplay between the elements, along with the mobility provided by the dagger and the support (through sharing auras and boons with allies in close proximity to you) makes it a very intruguing play patterns. If the Bard archetype (either of the 8 subclasses) checks these boxes, I expect to be enjoying AoC for a long time to come.
Comments
I really liked the concept shown, and the bard managed to go from my least likely class to play to top 3. The mobility and unique class design is extremely exciting, and I look forward to attempting to learn a new playstyle.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
Being able to be a unique support as well as potentially attempting to solo with a team player class. To specify, I don't want the class to become able to fight solo, I want to try and play a team-focused class solo.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
The visuals of the terrain and world seemed more lackluster than previously, and the visual and audio clutter is equally concerning. However, the spellbook seemed amazing and I am highly anticipating using it. The implementation of the weapon seems distinct from other games. For a small tweak, I believe the spellbook could be held slightly closer to the player, be minimally smaller (though not anything insane like 40% smaller), and could be held on the back of the player rather than permanently in the air or on their hip.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
The mobility looks extremely fun to play, and I hope they are able to have more abilities like the dash, quick wit, and knock back abilities. Additionally, the counter-point vs crescendo playstyles seem very fun to test while remaining distinct from each other.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
I think having more instrument animations would be better, but, despite other's claims, please do not make the bard focused on instruments. I say this as a real-life musician who wants to play a bard with the spellbook as the primary magical focus.
Loved the preview, i particularly enjoyed the actual play segment but it was all good. Very glad we got to hear from a sound designer, I would love to hear from sound more often such a prevalent part of the world when in game. Even if its a description of foley techniques I would love to hear more about sound direction if not from sound designers.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
For playing the Bard i find myself mostly drawn to that battlefield wide awareness, being a good bard seems like it comes from knowing who really needs support at any given moment and that kind of king-maker gameplay is really exciting for me. The idea of whoever is getting the bards attention feeling a nitro kick in damage or a ability to stand and fight what was kicking there ass seems really fun. For interacting with the bard It seems like a very important class to flag in PVP, a bards speed boost could be the key ingredient to a hit squad making their escape.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
Very excited for the plan for the melodies, mixing into the music and very excited to see the storybook effects.
I'm also very excited for the mo-capture that was used. it seems really fun to have such intense dances in combat.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I've seen the bard in EQ1 and the bard's in EQ2, this seems much more akin to the bard in EQ1, which is a good thing, i was always envious of bards in that game for how desired they were in utility. The idea of persistent songs and the speed buff as well as a little CC are the similarities I see
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I am a little concerned that the bard only seems to have one CC spell, a single target Charm or even striking a mob deaf to lower its agro range seems like a fun time. Bard is also one of the classes that should be really slippery so id like to see maybe one stunning smoke bomb or even the classic misdirect, some kind of pocket sand moment, though maybe the shield dance already fills this space. I also think that fun and purely cosmetic abilities would be a addition i would enjoy. especially if it were unique to the 64 classes. thats just wish listing though,
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Absolutely loved the dances and the VFX the moon on the sleep spell is one of my favorites, immediately lets the party know what the bard is doing.
I like how Intrepid is making the bard. A buffing class that can be speced to go melee or stay ranged.
Or to buff magic or physical damage. This all makes each bard unique and makes it a useful class.
I do think some of the skills are under-tuned and some are overturned at the moment.
From the Fighter showcase, they were saying that they were lacking mana but that the bard could solve this.
But now seeing the Bard the one skill that gives mana gives so little that it is a waste of a skill point in my opinion. There are way better choices of skills to pick at the moment.
I also think that the damage skills might be a little under-tuned. they should do a little more damage. not as much as a mage or any other DPS would do.
Then the damage % buff seems way too strong as it currently is. you have a 10% melody that you can use. And then also have the Stories that buff magic of physical damage. using both of these together makes it way to strong in my opinion. So they might need to be tuned down.
Excited that it looks quite impactful and worth having in your party. Less excited that there's a "no weaving" spec for the bard, making it lean more towards just being a plain buff bot....
Q) What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
The weaving of abilities to flip back and forth between certain support angles through the level 25+ passive looks very fun (mana reg, hp reg, movement speed, etc). It is not as much weaving and managing of spells/buffs as i'd like but it's great that it's possible.
Q) Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
Concerned about the fact it has a buff bot spec. Simply pressing a couple of buttons to have buff aura's up that benefit the party, and just a handful of actives seems very stale. I would like to see something more active to have these strong passive buffs up from level 1 instead of 25. Or perhaps a skill combo has to be met or a key combo has to be met to passively buff everything in an area or once for x amount of minutes, instead of an aura....
Q) What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
For what it is right now it looks quite smooth. I like the idea that it's going to empower classes to do better in their respective niche. The things the buffs do is also great. Maybe it would be great to have the ability to augment range versus power, and power versus range. For example: have a shorter range (from 30m>15m) for a 20-25% increase in spell effectiveness or something.
Q) Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them! Haven't seen any other then flute, but animations look good. SFX is also going in the right direction imo, nothing too obnoxious or overbearing when it is spammed.
Overall feeling about the Bard :
It feels good!
The toolkit provides a decent/good support ability.
The Melody / Song / Dance (+ masteries) aspects are appealing too.
The saga mechanism is super great. I love this « building the ultimate skill effect in advance » type of mechanism.
I also liked the « trump card » effect of Gambit.
And I think it would be cool to add a bit more of this kind of « flavor » to the kit.
For example having a skill which adds random status effect to the next offensive skill of an ally.
Or random buffs on an ally.
Or a « counter » skill which negates / return the next offensive skill used by the target.
A bit more of these kind of « chaotic/funny/annoying » things.
Visuals & sounds effect
Most of the visuals and sound effects are great !! I especially loved the shielding dance template on the ground, and the Discordance notes
I'm just not a fan of the « very flashy » visual effects, like Flourish. It's a bit too much for me.
The dances look very cool too. I like how they look adequate with the effect provided by the skill.
I just felt like the dance movements were too much « suppressed » while the character was running.
It felt like the upper body was dancing the whole time, but the lower body was doing some more-or-less-normal running, plus some « finishing dance move » at the end of the skill.
It would make more sense to me that the character performs « more obvious » dance moves when moving and using a dance skill at the same time.
Synergies with players
I recall that some time ago it has been mentionned during a livestream or an AMA that the bard might be able to throw some template on the ground, and that if the players get to some specific locations of the template (getting in formation) it would activate some big bonus.
Although I'm not sure about this specific example, I'd like to see some kind of interactions between (and from) other players with the bard.
Like hearing a bard singing a song is great, it gives bonus.
But if a dozen players join the Bard singing the song, it it should have a much greater impact.
I'm not sure how exactly this kind of stuff could be implemented, but I believe it would be a good feature to have.
I felt from the livestream that the Bard was indeed supporting the party, but he was on his own to do so. « The Bard is interacting with the party, but the party is not following/interacting with the Bard » sort of a feeling.
Synergies between Bards
Let's say I'm in a party with 3 mages. There'll be a rain of spells and destruction.
Now I'm in a party with 3 clerics. We'll get tons and tons of healing.
Now... we're 3 bards in a party.
Would the songs effect stack to some degree ? What about the melodies ? The dances ?
I'm a bit concerned that if the answer is no, having several bards in a party would be way more detrimental to the party compared to having several [whatever other class it is].
Yes, they would be able to activate all the melodies at once for example, but it does not feel satisfying.
If a party with 3 bards needs a lot of healing, it would make sense that each bard singing a healing melody would add to the healing to some degree for example.
Thus perhaps having some extra synergies available when several bards are in a same party would be a good thing too.
Spellbook
Also, I'm a big fan of the floatting spellbook and its animations. It's definitely cool.
Its size is decent too, since I believe it should be visible enough while playing on a 3rd person view. We could see the head of the bard hiding part of the book during the livestream in such cases, but the book was still decently visible.
The style of preview was great as is standard. I appreciate that the gameplay was conducted by someone who is deaply familiar with the archetype kit (sorry Stephen 😉)
• What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
• Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
The potential of the active powerful support bard combining healing, buffs, debuffs, CC is great. I started and most of the time mained sword singer or bladedancer in Lineage 2 and loved the archetype especially in physical focused party setups which allowed the bard to act also as effective support dps and not just support tank and buffer with no dmg since in magical dmg focused parties you as a bard focused on magic dmg enhancements and defence and bards did not have any magic dmg skills. I hope in AoC both ways are going to be viable, since from the current setup of buffs and debuffs it seams the party setup will also tend towards specialization (ie. Mage parties or archer parties or melee physical parties) to take advantage of the specific melodies and dances that bard will provide. I also hope the higher lvl skills or auguments will allow melee kind of blade dancer style of support dps with ability to enhance other fighters/rogues to do more physical dmg.
• Is there anything in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
• What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
At the moment what concerns me is lack of direct mana heal skill like there is the HP heal using the serenade skill. The pensive melody is very slow and weak for bard to truly fulfill the „mana battery“ role in the party. I can see that the weapon combo effect when you have pensive melody is another boost, but my concern is that the weapon combo effect will not synergize well with the weaving mechanic (especially if on higher lvl you will weave more than 2 melodies) than when in the pinch in the need of mana you will need to switch to pensive melody and brake your rotation which won’t feel great. This would be remedied if bard had another direct mana heal serenade type skill and use the weapon combo finisher pensive melody combination only in really mana intensive situations.
Another concern is the current saga mechanic. The different themes are interesting idea, but in practice will feel very inflexible. You build up for 90s for a one type of saga, but in those 90s the situation could change drastically and you would need completely different saga and again must build up for 90s and then it could be again too late. This mechanic could result in very frustrating gameplay. Especially when there is no sagas for the combination of themes 2 and 1 (for example 2 tragedy and 1 comedy) because you use 2 stories with tragedy theme in a row, but then the situation calls for a story with another theme and you will be unable to use any saga because you don’t have 3 of a kind or 1 of each. That also feels frustrating and inflexible.
My suggestion is to make themes a generic resource gained by using any story and then have several different types of sagas of which you could spec into only some. These sagas should be more support oriented, for example it could combine great buff for whole raid/party and debuffs and dmg over time to the enemies. (the fireball theme looked quite out of character actually even though the lore aspect and vfx idea is great).
• Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
The vfx is nice I am not really vfx kind of guy but my main concern with vfx is the ability to see what is going on in party or mass pvp situation. I really hope in very flexible optionality of toning down vfx effects. My current idea is to have the option to turn down vfx by individual skills with the option to separate between party/raid/side of siege/enemy. It is important to have option for example only to see incoming aoe skills, or your party members skills (so you can keep track where are your party members compared to the rest of your allies) etc. More granularity of options the better.
All in all thank you for the great work you are doing creating this game and I love the direction of the bard.
Especially that you can press something and you get explanations for status effects on skill mouseover.
The Bard Archetype Preview was really good. I really liked the concept and the clear style of the bard. The animations was so good. Top notch! I cant wait to see other instruments (violin) .
The skills themselves where interesting and had variety, offered mobility and some cc and im really excited to see how it plays and what would bard hybrids look like.
I LOVED the Saga concept and i am curious as to how you build it up and the various effects and animations it can offer.
SFX was amazing too but i need to wait and see how it blends with in game music in various areas.
I would really like to be able to see the area that my spells will affect before casting them for both allies and enemies. With the animations showed it seems with practice you could be able to tell the limits of the affected area.
Now lets talk about the spellbook.
I have to say i actually liked the size. It could be smaller but im not sure it will feel the same. Depends on the vibe you are trying to achieve. Massive magic tome doing slow and big aoe attacks sound cool.
i liked how alive it was
i liked how the pages where turning and had different pictures in. Imagine a legendary spellbook having actual lore pictures in it from the boss it dropped or the area/dungeon it was from.
if you make it be on the back or waist as well or even better to be able to choose or unlock an idle stance/animation i cant wait to see it on a dunir or nikua. I imagine it will be the size of that shield xD
Keep up the good and hard work.
By now the bar has been set too high and is only getting higher.
I can't wait to get blown away by summoner.
Edit: More things like random flips when jumping pls and a place that shows how many consecutive we have done.
PS: I can't wait to hear about the October date as i may have to alter my octoberfest plans...or combine them!
2. the bard is the main support and a must in battles. So many buffs that are good for a group. I love bards because he can also do the most in terms of roleplay.
3. the damage or the damage attack plus effects would have to be adjusted a bit. The dances are perhaps a bit too long in terms of animation
4. lord of the rings online the bard was great. He was heal support and well designed with all buffs. Damage-wise, you could also play him solo. Ashes is going in a good direction
5. the dances are too long otherwise the optics of the attacks are great. Good variety, nice to look at and nice and dynamic to play.
6. the effects are good and not too much. Sounds were missing a lot of course the melodies have to be well covered with music. Music is the most important part of the bard. every instrument has to be tuned
Deepl translate
I am SO GLAD you leaned into the discordant/debuffing side of the bard. The game lacked a clear hexmaster type character. There's a very clear build for focusing on debuffs and discord, and I can't wait to see what happens with cleric death augments, rogue augments or even tank options (debuffing/taunting siren seems like a niche I'd like to play).
The lighting and visual effects were painful in this video. I really liked the dark interiors and the way the light came through the windows, however the spell effects are so bright in contrast to the dark interior it was literally painful on the eyes. I could see this being migraine inducing quickly. Also there were a few times when in the cramped interior the bard's sleep ability literally filled the whole screen making it impossible for anyone to see what they were doing (maybe this has a use case though in pvp)
Overall - this was a great stream and thank you very much.
Edit: Oh I didn't look at the prompt question, this one is something I wanted to touch on;
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Guild Wars 1 Mesmer is still my favourite class and nothing comes close. Lore wise they are actors and bards, and so most fit this achetype. Warriors didn't have any sort of taunt abilities, so in Vanilla GW1 Mesmers were effectively the tank, but they tanked by preventing damage - countering spells, debuffing enemies, and crowd control.
I was a master Mesmer in both PvP and PvE. In the early days no one really understood what a Mesmer did - but most groups realised that they did way better when a good Mesmer was in their party compared to when they did the same missions without one.
I would very much like to see especially the Bard/Tank (Siren) be able to protect the party through debuffs and crowd control. This allows them to meet some of the Tank's roles of protecting the rest of the party but in a very uniquely Bard style. You've already given the Bard some taunt abilities in their base kit as well.
Also, I hope Bear McCreary's career is greatly boosted by how he knocks this unique opportunity out of the park. Imagine skill audio being woven into the music of the game/biome... you think we could get a dopamine hit off the sound?
We are counting on you Mr. McCreary.
The bard looks great. I know it is still a work in progress, but it would be nice to have some choices in regards to the music your bard plays in game. Music is taste and everyone has their preferences.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
I am excited to have a bard in my team because they enhance everything else your group does. Having a heavy support is a must for a game like Ashes and for RP elements.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I am a little concerned that if your group can't find a bard, you may get out matched easily. I am hoping for strong considerations to giving bard secondary archetypes good buffs as well. To lessen the impact if you can't get a bard main.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them
They looked great to me. Some instrument choices would be nice.
On a side note. Can we not have the dwarfs jump roll? It looks a bit silly to me. Or maybe have jump options during the character creation process? That roll just makes me laugh. I feel like the dwarfs should be like a heavy boulder, smashing the ground with their surprising weight and might.
Great work!
I was wondering if it has been in consideration if the buff values of the Bard skills would add a value that scales with magical power. For example 20% to attack speed + 0.02% per 1 Magical Power and not just 25% to attack speed.
I have not seen something like this in the games I have played, but it would be a motivation for Bards to work on their gear.
The guild and groups would also be interested in helping the bard to advance in gear.
And it would be a motivation for the Bard to enchant his gear in late game to get some extra percentage. To maybe end up with 31% attack speed in late game.
I would like to see this on all buffs. Of course the numbers and with which attribute they scale should be tested.
2. Support gameplay and High skill ceiling
It is nice to have a generous aoe effect to support formations that are spread out, and to also have support abilities that are more focused on a tightly grouped up formation. It might be fun to consider having multiple individual smaller aoe effects that can be placed simultaneously to encourage group members to take a certain position in order to get the benefits, or also just to add a bit of interactivity to the bard player in order to provide those buffs to group members who are spread out. Maybe the effects of each individual aoe are even class specific to really empower you to give specific direction to your group in a clear and concise way on how you want them positioned to best support them (like blue aoe is best for tank to step into, green for ranger, etc.), and maybe these could be stacked on a specific location when you want your group to gather together at a chokepoint or something. Or maybe some directional support abilities like action targeted beams or cone abilities or something interactive like that can be fun for support I think. Just a thought. Maybe you could apply this logic of "soft incentives for group combat functions" to things like target priority as well, by being able to do something like linking tethers between an enemy and a group member for certain effects. This could be in order to encourage them to interact with each other, such as buffing a specific group member as long as they are targeting a specific mob. This could be useful for prioritizing certain targets and group tactics, especially if combines with the other aspects of combat like formations. Might be worth exploring.
I think the idea of interactive group abilties can be fun too. Things like throwing a teammate, or ramming a teammate out of the way (possibly even physics based). I think these can set up for some cool group strategies, synergies, and tactics, and could be useful group support options.
I also made a thread recently called "support roles for siege equipment/vehicles/mounts" which could also potentially apply to a support class in some ways so I'll include that reference as a part of my bard feedback. It talks about some unique aspects of a fun group support role through my experiences with other games with large scale group combat such as the Battlefield franchise.
Overall I really like the idea of an interactive support class that weaves between different class skills, so hopefully there is a good variety of ability options with various range/pushes/pulls/side-knocks/effects etc. to support this kind of tactical gameplay. Again, i'll make my usual reference to my past thread called "proactive+reactive offense/defense/movement options baked in at various ranges", as a part of my usual class feedback to hopefully provide additional class gameplay insight and ability inspiration. I would really like to see a high skill ceiling for the combat in this game, making use of both planned and reactive tactics, spacial reasoning, distance management, etc. to make it as engaging as possible.
B- Another idea I saw others point out that I like, is allowing more flexibility with the sagas so you can adapt to the situation at hand
C) I also wanted to second the idea of mana sustain not relying solely on your class composition and group members. You should be able to play the game without waiting for a group member to top off your mana. This should probably only be a thing for super challenging encounters where perfect coordination is required. Otherwise its boring to wait around constantly for that support instead of playing and using abilities. There can be an aspect of mana management but it should probably be at an individual level, with some group-based mana support sprinkled in; you shouldn't have to wait around just because you don't have a bard in your party constantly topping you off.
3. Class fantasy, experiential storytelling, and role-play
Regarding the class fantasy gameplay, I already addressed some ideas earlier to potentially look into regarding the role-play of the rhythmic aspect of the bard, and how to potentially improve the player interactivity/engagement with the class to better immerse oneself into that class fantasy. I want to feel like I am playing how a bard would play, I want as a player to actually express and role-play bard like behaviors. I want as a player to actually be an inspiration on the battlefield, and to actually humilate my opponent with goofy abilities and whatnot. I think there is definitely a good start for that.
For one, I love the tomato toss idea. Abilities like the tomato throw really help express the class fantasy as well, because instead of just using abilities with cool names, you are actual role-playing through abilities like tomato throw and experiencing a funny/humiliating moment in the gameplay that is meant to be just that, which is good design imo. Stuff like this helps you really experience the class fantasy, to role-play, and to create memorable interactions and stories even during something as frenetic as combat. I enjoy when the design factors in that expressiveness, storytelling, and role-play represented through the gameplay mechanics and hope to see more of this kind of stuff. Let my actual gameplay humiliate my opponent by shutting down their key abilities by using a well timed tomato throw, let me as a player inspire my group by rallying them into a strategic formation (dancing during a battle and "styling" on enemies are also good examples of "inspirational" gameplay), etc. This is all part of systemic experiential storytelling, expression of fantasy, role-play, and evocative design. Those are key aspects for me and I like a lot of what I see so far on this front and hope they continue and expand on stuff like this.
B- I really like how versatile and comprehensive the bard's thematic design is, by incoporating melodies, dances, songs, stories, and sagas all in one class. I hope they also incoporate more of the "deck of cards/gambler" theme as well. I do think Gambit is a really cool ability in that direction.
I look forward to seeing how evocative and creative they get in expressing these different class themes without relying on words or explanation. Things like portraying the ideas of tragedy, comedy, etc. through the songs, stories, dances and other abilities will be very interesting.
I do think the customization of music should be an aspect of the bard as well. Things like having choices for the actual sound that plays, the instruments used, or being able to make custom music. Having that choice while integrating it into the overall class design and direction could really add to the class appeal.
Personally this is the kind of music I would want to play as a bard:
C) For even more class fantasy expression, I think it would be awesome to have unique mechanics/responses from different npcs to different thematic abilities
I think it would be cool if npcs had unique personalities and their behaviors were very reactive when interacting with class abilties. Maybe some mobs are "sensitive" and react differently to being "humiliated", so if you hit them with a tomato right before they get off their signature move maybe they get "flustered" or something and throw a tantrum or whatever. Stuff like that is interesting to me.
D) Regarding the expressiveness of the spellbook weapon, I love everything about this approach to the spellbook. I love that it floats and animates independently, I love the comically large size and how chunky and powerful it looks, I love the animations and effects, and I like how its a more heavy-duty magic based weapon. These aspects make it unique and cool I think. There's something about it that just appeals to me and I think I would end up using it if they stick in this direction with it. I didn't notice if this was already a thing or not, but it would also be cool if the book flips through its pages between different "chapters" in the book as you cycle through its weapon combo.
Doesn't need changes or at least give the option to keep current size
I dont know how to feel about your bard, i dont really feel the power of his support.
You should try to get 2 groups to play in the same area, one with a bard and the other with a DPS/heal instead of the bard.
If the bard doesn't make a huge difference, then it needs to be reworked.
A support which, in a group, is not a "game changer" will be used in a roundabout way.
Perhaps the power of these buffs should vary according to the number of players in the party?
As for the rest, it's hard to give an opinion without having been able to feel and try out the class. It's one of the hardest classes to grasp through a video, as it requires a thorough understanding of the gameplay and important elements (movement/speed attack/crit/etc)...see you in A2
Very excited to be playing the Bard in A2, looks like a lot of different aspects of being a bard is incorporated into the design (Music, Dance, Singing, Story telling) and seems to be the most fleshed out in regards to class identity.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
The mobility aspect combined with the AOE's will certainly bring a lot of active gameplay, which was something I was worried about (as opposed to just standing around and playing songs). It feels like a party with a bard is absolutely going to have the advantage over a party that is missing a bard.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
As others have said, having the instrument of choice be the sound that plays in all of the "Music" skills would be best. I LOVE the dances and songs, but having a drum play for the shielding dance while I am wielding a violin seems to take away from the instrument choice. I also feel as if some of the abilities are a little TOO comical, like the "Get off the stage" and "Quick Wit" tomato throw. I simply did not enjoy the visual effects for those skills, and I would like to see them changed myself.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
Nothing of note here, other than you guys seem to have better bard mechanics than most games. Kudos to you on that.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
Some of the melody animations end quite abruptly. I would like to draw your attention to the "Epic Melody" animation, that just seems to go from animation to standing pose. It just seems a little... stiff? Perhaps having the animation/dance/breakdown when you play that skill slowly taper off would look better in my opinion. Also the tomato and get off the stage abilities just look way too comical to me.
Dünhold Discord
Dünhold Website
- Excited! It looks like there are some solid bones put into this skeleton. I like that the Bard modifies so many features (ie CC and PC Movement Speed) in addition to primary skills (attack, def, healing)
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
- Flexibility! My reference is the Bard from EverQuest. That Bard was difficult to play, but incredibly rewarding when you figured it out. I was really intrigued by the minigame-esque "Saga building"
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
- I am concerned about how a Bard can solo engage with combat (PvE).
- I think the mobility is awesome! IMO a Bard should be mobile, not static. With that said, it might be cool to look at improving the effect of the spell if the Bard stays still for X% of the cast.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
- I would like to see some cross skill type combos.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
- The sounds are pretty cool, The VFX look clean and are easy to see who is impacted ( it might be nice to get a phantom area of effect when you hover over the spell to determine if you need to reposition for better coverage).
Forcing people to repeatedly hit a button every 20 seconds is, in my opinion, a design choice that's been tried before and failed. EQ did it with bards, in the end added /twist because it was terrible. DAoC used to let you twist songs by going back and forth, but in the end just moved to letting you have two up at once. Twisting adds no value or gameplay for the average player.
Hitting buttons every 20 seconds does not take skill beyond not forgetting to do it when combat gets crazy. That's easy to happen though, so most players will either NOT twist, probably go for the better chant option, just use a somewhat complicated AHK macro someone will write that gives you hotkeys for whatever two songs you want, tap that, and way you go, get or exasperate some innate carpal tunnel syndrome, or play some other class. Last one isn't really an issue if the single chant but stronger talent is viable enough groups don't care.
The "stacks" twisting idea is cute, I'll give you that. Being able to have 3 chants up momentarily, but only for 7 seconds is interesting, but given the requisite low power of a chant designed to run all the time having one more chant for two or three ticks, but then loosing another for a bit after that, probably isn't going to may any difference at all, unless there are mechanics not shown in the video.
So, from my perspective, the stacks-then switch idea, well an interesting gimmick for the aforementioned button mashing minigame, lacks in any gameplay depth at all. If you let it tick up to 60 stacks and you could have 3 songs up for 20 seconds every minute, that might make it have some use. But that's a solution to a problem that doesn't need to be there. If you want people to have 3 songs up every so often... LET them have 3 songs up every so often. A simple proc every 60 seconds for a 20 second cast of the next song key pressed would do the trick.
I get that you want a unique mechanic to set your bard apart, but, again in my opinion, you need to go back to the drawing board on that one. It's annoying, it adds no gameplay vs. the alternatives, and for those that choose not to macro it, it adds a regular unavoidable hand movement, even during downtime, that can after hours and hours of gameplay can cause literal pain.
Ya asked for my opinion, there it is! Thanks for asking at least.
/cheers
Also, it looks like we have migrated away from every class being able to use every weapon (which is unfortunate). If this is the case, I hope that there will be different groups of similar weapons. For example, the Bards can use song/hymn books, magical foci, or other types of hand-held objects that either amplify their performance or amplify their magic (thematically).
As for other games that you may want to emulate, I really liked the system that Lord of the Rings Online had. It was supposed to be a system that encouraged teamwork, but they had buffs that happened when different types of skills were used in concert and in a certain order. The Saga system seems very similar, so that may be a place where you would install this. Basically you would use a certain type of heal, a certain type of buff, a certain type of attack and a group-wide effect would occur. Importantly, the skills you may want to use commonly in combat may not be the skills you need for your target effect. For example; the Bard does their Shield Dance, and the next type of skill for the wanted effect may be the move speed aura. However, it may be more imperative to use the heal aura. In this way, the Bard needs to figure out if the immediate action is an emergency, or if the Saga is more important and could warrant a tank dying or an enemy mage being able to get off their aoe.
Love that it's a true support, instead of half a healer with CC or something. Some really good ideas for empowering specific members of the party with targeted buffs at the right time.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
Excited:
I'm excited that you dared to put in some majorly impactful abilities like the health swap in there. Good to see that you don't shy away from strong effects, even if they'll be likely to be divisive when they leave so much room for annoying PVP opponents, and potentially negatively affecting allies.
Same for the siege dragon castle animation. Love the willingness to be bold.
I cannot say it too often, please make sure you add enough variety of impactful skills, so there's as few "best in slot" skillsets as possible, and instead just variety of playstyles and strategies that make you think about how to adapt your preparation and reactions for every new player you run into, so people actually pay attention to who they are fighting.
Concerned:
- Please make sure that all in-combat movespeed buffs have very high cooldowns, so distance and range are something that matters. Cooldowns are important for all impactful AoE buffs, but movespeed might be the most important one to balance.
- I'm a bit worried that Clerics won't have enough to offer small parties. Between, healing/shielding, mana regen, strength buffs, cooldown/attack speed buffs, defensive buffs, cleansing. and perhaps debuffs/cc, make sure the Cleric has something that makes them worthwhile to have in small-scale PvE.
I think perhaps cleansing and some amount of mana regen could be nice.
Of course you don't need to give them *much* more than healing strength, because one of the big advantages of having a dedicated healer will be the flexibility of being ready for PvP ganks in PvX scenarios, so there will always be some use for Clerics once players are high-level enough to be entering contested territory.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
This is vague and has nothing to do with balance, but I don't think you can do anything wrong by letting Witcher's Dandelion (and the related theatre quests) influence the class identity.
Just anything that expresses the keywords charisma and storyteller is good.
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
- I think one thing I would like to see more of is persistent glowy effects of strategically important buffs on players. I know you don't want things to become overly flashy, but make sure you don't sacrifice interesting decisionmaking influenced by impactful buffs.
Not everything needs to be visible; sometimes it's okay that the player has to figure out themselves if they think the opponent has a certain buff on them, if they weren't there to see the cast.
But if it's visible on the target opponent health bar UI, it should probably be visible in 3d, and if it can't be visible in 3d, perhaps it shouldn't be seen on the UI.
- For combos, there's a thread where the CC reduction ability Anthem of Alacrity was discussed as being underwhelming, and undeserving of its high single-target investment (cast time, etc.)
The way I think short duration single-target buffs like that could be made to shine more dominantly is by adding combo abilities that harmonise with them.
One very rewarding way of introducing this would be to have a 12 second mana-restoration-*per-cast* buff in the Cleric skilltree, allowing the Bard and Cleric to produce one supercharged nuke together.
By making the mana restoration a flat value scaling with cast instances instead of a percentage of the mana cost spent, you'd strongly reward long, fast combos with cooldown reduction. And at the same time, you'd keep control over the balancing to make sure the combo doesn't just circumvent mana resource balancing where people just spam their highest-cost spells because it'd be free.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
It's nice that the sound design has put great consideration into ensuring nothing becomes overbearing or annoying, but I do think there would be room for some singing voices in the songs. A few a capella vibe women's notes for some skills and men's notes for others could be perfectly appropriate for announcing that a Bard is on the battlefield and feeling like they're performing in impressions of different people for us. You can make them quieter if multiple Bards are too close to the player.
Inspiration:
My favourite game had a healer spell that allowed healers to become immune to damage for 10-20 seconds at high cost and CD, with the additional balancing mechanisms of inability to do anything that deals damage (including buffs with damaging side effects) and drastically restricted mana regeneration tools.
Since the Cleric doesn't really have an Oh-Shit button of that capacity, perhaps the Bard could be granted an ability like that. You could restrict it to be only cast on players who haven't dealt damage in the last 15 seconds, and Clerics could coordinate with their allies who should be prepared to receive that ability.
General observations:
- CC immunity probably shouldn't be absolute. It should reduce duration/effectiveness by a percental value, and/or downgrade hard CC into related soft CC. (e.g. stun into slow, etc.)
Tanky players shouldn't be rewarded for eating and surviving a few seconds of stuns by becoming unstoppable. It should be enough to allow them to do something and reduce the efficiency of the CC, without turning them invincible.
In return you could make the effect a bit longer.
Something I like about the existing CC reduction system is that it looks like it ensures that CC that gets stopped by cleanse will only factor into the immunity threshold tracker until it's been dispelled, which is pretty much perfect.
- The book weapon type received a lot of complaints on the stream. Partially by people who don't understand the weapon system yet, but still. I think it looks great, but it needs more vivid idle animations, and the default idle location should be offset further to the side of the player than straight in front.
Otherwise, I think the design is fantastic, and I hope you don't let the loud complaints about missing instrument weapons make you stray too far from an internally consistent system for merging weapon choice flexibility and class identity. The skills should speak for themselves by being fun to theorycraft and develop an individual playstyle with, not by adding in gimmicks to appeal to a flashy stereotype.
I have few ideas that may improve it:
1. Another passive to choose between Crescendo and Counterpoint - Song of Rest - Cheerful Melody, Pensive Melody have 3x times effectivenes when you are out of combat.
2. Quick Wit change - Jest with target ally, healing for (150%🢆) (healing) and applying Glee. giving them high morale (opposite of demoralize). Ridicule target enemy, damaging them for (100%🢆) bludgeon damage and applying Demoralized.
3. Bardic Inspiration - greatly improving effectiveness (quality) of all of fiendly target's abilities for a very short time, cooldown - medium length.
(tanks: aegis radius increased, shield assault trips instead of staggering and so on;
cleric: Condemn snares instantly )
4. Another take on Quick Wit change - Make Bardic Inspiration from point 3 (above) friendly target version of Quick Wit and opposite of it as Quick Wits enemy target version - decrease effectivness of enemy's skills.
I believe it may be too much work to be worth implementing but this version of Quick Wit would make Bard very high skill ceiling while other skills provide low skill floor. I would make bard very interesting to play with and will make it have very cool interactions because having very big effect but low duration makes coordination and timing increadibly important.
I also dont like flat dmg reduction Quick Wit currently has.
5.Bard should be specialist of interactions between his CC abilities and other archetypes CC abilities. Like with cleric's Chains of Restraint.
6. I would also want to see bard specific cc/debuffs like charmed/hipnotized. It could be themed similar to CC abilities of Tayuya from Naruto.
PS: (armors looks good, bard archetype looks good, but need testing like everything. One thing to think about - I can't imagine choosing a book as my main weapon and playing as warrior - how would they complement each other? Will some books have STR atributes? Or on other side some great swords have INT atributes? we will see i gues)
My thoughts:
Things I liked/found promising:
- I am aware that I am not the only one who suggested that class presentations be done by developers for better mechanical demonstration, but it is still very(!) nice to be listened to. So a big thank you for that. It is very appreciated.
I think Bucky did a fantastic job during the stream showcasing Bard's synergy with the party. Clutch superheals, well-timed CC, and overall support with utility. Well done.
And a thank you to Steven for stepping aside and letting the developer of the class shine. Not everyone would. It is appreciated.
- Sound effects hit the spot. A little bit of calibration of the volume is still needed, but overall, I think it was superb in this aspect.
- Visual effects were nice. Some of them need more love, some are too much (Ill expand on this later), but overall, as a concept, I loved the direction in which this is going.
Even though I previously noted several times that archetypes need to stick to a two-to-three-colored palette to avoid visual fireworks, I think Bard is the only case where a bundle of different colors is acceptable. Thematically and mechanically.
- Its hard to say what Bard will become at higher levels, not to mention adding a second archetype, but what we see today feels like several big steps in the right direction. I will probably never play Bard class (the closest I ever played to Bard was probably Scald in Pathfinder:WOTR...no more Pathfinder games...I am devastated and unconsoleble), but I found the mobility of the gameplay very appealing. You dance here, you dance there, jump to the nasty mob and CC it, perform an urgent CPR on a careless DD, shift to a proper position for maximum efficiency, and hail fire on pathetic mortals. Very dynamic and fun. I don't know, but it felt like Bucky had a great time playing.
- The Grimoire turned out to be majestic. Probably my favorite weapon type as a summoner main. I know this is silly, but looking at the current size of it, I imagined that it would be super cool if in melee range grimoire AAs turned into bites. So if a monster or other player gets too close, Grimoire grows some magical teeth and starts biting instead of shooting (like a mimic, yeah).
Things I thought needed improvement and overall thoughts on some individual skills:
- Have seen a lot of concerns about single-target skills. Lack of them to be presize. I think I agree to some extent. Obviously, Bard should not have the same magnitude as, say, Warrior, Summoner, or Archer in terms of solo farming, but right now it feels like it would take forever to level up Bard. And I don't even think duo is the solution because two DDs would obviously faceroll trash much faster. Or any other viable combination like tank+AOEbot, two summoners, healer+DD (to farm elites), and so on. Right now, it seems like Bard would not be a burden only in the lvling parties of 3+ and an absolute monster in full-parties. Most players start solo, then find a guild and meet new friends, and right now, low levels appear to be misery for beginner Bards.
- Cheerful Melody. Everything seems in order. I would add shield percentage increase passive in addition to healing.
- Pensive Melody. There should be increased mana regeneration out of combat and during meditation.
- Epic Melody. I would change it a little so that when you play this melody for the first few seconds, you get an extra speed buff.
- Cathardic Melody. I really don't like the extra randomness added without any good reason. It makes no sense here. Just make it a 25% lifesteal instead of a 25% chance for a 100% lifesteal. In the short term, let's say Mage casts 10 spells, and this 25% never occurs. Infuriating. Unnesessary. Less gambling and more planning!
- Menacing Melody. Its fine. Nothing to add.
- Flourish. Everything is great. Maybe add some minor effect when passing through enemies or allies?
- Shielding Dance. Everything is great.
- Nimble Dance. I'm not a big fan of stacking movespeed buffs. It gets out of control really fast (sorry...). You can change it into a significant damage mitigation buff for a short time or a buff that grants others long rolls (if, like you said, the purpose of this dance is to avoid heavy attacks).
- Mesmerizing Dance. Nice. Tone down the animation a little, maybe?
- Maddening Dance. Same as the one above.
- Get off the stage. Needs a bigger pushback.
- Quick wit. Throwing tomatoes is fun, but I once again would tone down the explosion. It feels like several tomatoes right now.
- Lovely serenade. For an ability that locks you down, the effect feels weak. Either make it heal more or make sure it continues for some time even after the cast.
- Anthem. Great! Maybe add the option to cast it on enemies with the opposite effect?
- Chilling Lament. It's a no from me. Mechanically, it is nice, but thematically, it is so out of place. Random cold spell. Why not make it either a sonic or an illusion spell?
- Dusk lulubelly. Animation is beautiful, but it is way over the top.
- Discordence. Its nice!
- Gambit. My favorite one (even though it is usually a Warlock type of skill)
- The apocalipce. I love the mechanic. It needs some work, but I think it will turn out great. Because it is made to be a story, fire doesn't feel out of place.
I felt like it captured the class fantasy very well. Fun, frenetic, and incorporated a variety of elements from a bards in prior games.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Bard Archetype?
I love supporting my teammates as a cleric and having someone who helps to enhance my experience is always welcome.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Bard Archetype Preview?
I felt the tiniest bit let down that the Bard did not have the ability to enhance regeneration while resting. I hoped Bard would be the character that helped minimize downtime.
Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
What are your thoughts on the Bard abilities, mechanics, and combos?
I like them so far but I feel like I'll have to see how they play in A2 and what is proposed as a balanced environment.
Do you have opinions on the instrument animations, Bard VFX, and Bard SFX? If so, please share them!
I liked them. I felt like the animations while playing were still a work in progress but I'd like to see the animations persist a bit longer if not interrupted by another ability.
As a 'fantasy' class in RPGs (both digital and tabletop), I really enjoy playing Bards.
Based on the Bard archetype preview video, I'm in love with what I've seen so far.
The whole kit just oozes the right flavour. From passive melodies to actively knee-sliding into a bunch of enemies to land a clutch disruption through CC.
I personally strongly prefer a very pro-active form of support gameplay, and not so much the sit back and heal whoever gets damaged type of gameplay. Hopefully, the Bard as a class will offer sufficient 'value' for a party, regardless of party size (including solo play). I'm not much of a PvE guy, but I love exploring large open worlds and reading all the lore things and quests I find. A lot of pepple don't have the patience for that so as a result I end up leveling/ grinding alone. As far as PvP is concerned, I like the smaller party raids/ skirmishes better than all out zerg wars. So hopefully the Bard as a class will shine in these scnarios, and not be designed/ optimised towards a 'full party'.
As far as instruments/ weapons go, I am fine with instruments being used for flavour, and not as actual weapons. After all (IMO), a Bard should not exclusively be a 'musician'. The shared pool of different weapons accessible for all (or most) classes reminds me of Guild Wars 2. The customisation this adds to the playstile of each class, is something I greatly look forward to.
In GW2, I've been exclusively playing a dagger/ warhorn Tempest (Elementalist) ever since Tempest were added to the game. The fluid gameplay between the elements, along with the mobility provided by the dagger and the support (through sharing auras and boons with allies in close proximity to you) makes it a very intruguing play patterns. If the Bard archetype (either of the 8 subclasses) checks these boxes, I expect to be enjoying AoC for a long time to come.