Ah my posts are not really directed at you, but I knew you would be here
Can't hurt to ask, right?
It is, indeed, Monday morning in Kyoto.
Obviously we have different opinions on the development of this game, let's keep it civil
We don't though.
I know it's probably not very clear, but I support your position on this matter entirely, just not your approach.
I too, would like 'Classic' Ashes of Creation and literally every day I wonder nostalgically what happened to it.
I just think this thread is really, really unlikely to help in any way.
You 100% wrong, thread like this, when they gather momentum, is exactly what causes change, or belter responses, its fanboi comment like yours, that do absolutely nothing to help!
You get your types in every single MMO dev cycle, always jumping on anything you consider negative towards the game.
Blind fanboi's, are often the death of a good game!
The comment you quoted criticizes the backpedaling design changes that have come through. Did you mean to quote someone else?
He was talking about him saying that this post will do anything to help, and he is right, change doesn't happen from posts that don't bring up the negative parts of the game
To be fair though, just because some people think something is negative doesn't mean that it actually is or that the majority agrees. Some people are going to like the design changes that have been made over the last couple of years and some aren't. Unless a change appears to be disliked by a large majority then chances are Intrepid is going to move forward with it. I'm indifferent towards most of the smaller changes and even what seems to be a move away from action combat (I like both action oriented and tab target, so as long as the overall combat design is cohesive and fun then I don't care which way they take it). I like the overarching design philosophy behind the game and that hasn't really changed.
That said, people should absolutely be allowed to voice their concerns and criticisms without being attacked or belittled. That happens too often on this forum, and even people that point out that that should be allowed even if they don't actually agree with the criticisms get attacked by some of the more zealous fanboys because they just can't fathom that someone might be able to see the point of the "opposing" side of the argument without actually agreeing with them.
This is peak, if you defend the points of the game or don't agree with the idea and argue you are attacking lmao.
So pretty much this guy wants a gate way to say anything about the game and not have conflict for their own points.
This is typical behavior ive seen on social media where they try to label you to attempt to be little you not agreeing with their wild takes. People here are seeing a echo chamber to grow so their idea (even if its against the core of the game, or is actually a really bad take) can get friction. And don't want people to disagree with them ^_-
*edit mind you this being said about a post that was said to be a rant, and a title complaining about where is the progress in the game that is being developed and openly showing progress.
The game will not grow and evolve if game designs which are shown and explained only will get echo feedback like „amazing“ and „hype“. Then gathering feedback is just cherry picking the questions and proposals that come from paying potential customers (bad tongues say cultists, which anyway will be happy and they will defend nearly everything) to legitimize the own already fixed systems but trying to ignore the differentiated feedback, the more criticial feedback, which can open point of views and experiencies and thus lead to a better game for more players, because that will be needed to get those systems running and keep them running also 2 month after release. The excuse of „it‘s not for eyeryone“ is indeed a confirmation to all stated above and not solving issues. Listen to players that have experienced more than L2 for instance, because this game is over, its done. Revival and copy it makes no sense at all (it will die again, especially because market/players changed), and „but Steven“ is no argument, but an excuse, especially if you continously state that you want to get feedback and want to iterate during agile game development. Ask players of all kinds with wide experience, not only advocates (the answers are clear) that want to revive dead games.
I fully agree with the approach not only to talk to fans that know about 0-3 MMOs out there, but plenty of them. Both pve and pvp wise.
I fully agree that no fan should start to talk like the developer itself and start to defend by any means mechanics, that are bad, but argumented with „but Steven wants it like this“. So is feedback really (!) welcomed then? Just dont ask if you fear to get a „No, thats shit, because“.
I fully agree with the approach to say it directly if something seems to be bad if thats already known from experience of other MMOs (again: Beyond the knowledge of only 1-2 of them) snd therefore make a wake up call to get things changed or optimized as long as there is time for it. Thats no rant, thats an emergency approach to alert and thus get attention to discuss and not soothing down important topics.
If all this is not welcomed, so echo chamber is preferred, close the forum, stop asking for discussion and feedback during agile development.
Moreover: If providing a showcase, get the target aufience right. If beginning of September 2024, so 7 years after development start, PvE content is shown (with the same dragon known before) and in end of August 2024 Stream 15min are talked about „we will have maces in our game“ (well, which MMO doesnt have plenty of or nearly all weapon types?) thats just strange.
Show this dragon fight with 3 groups pvp-ing each other for 3-4 hours (you can summarize/cut vids, right?) so focus on what the game will be and do not attract and play with the gamers out there by misleading expectation management.
In what world do you consider that to be "seeing" the preditor subclass?
Tell me what abilities they have, what role they fill, how they differ from other rogue subclasses - anything.
What we have here isn't us having "seen" the preditor class, we have a 7 year old piece of promotional material that has the word "preditor" in it.
If we are to consider that as being all that is needed to "see" a subclass, then we may as well say that we have seen all subclasses of the 6 primary archetypes we have seen - because we have just as much information on each of those as subclasses than we do about the preditor.
3
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 11
Yep. We have seen the Predator Class do some Predator stuff.
Literally.
Yep. We have seen the Predator Class do some Predator stuff.
Literally.
lmao you have to be joking, furthermore if that is seeing the class and not just a piece of material they have made for a 2 minute cinematic, it again raises the question, why could the game look like that 7 years ago but looks like trash now, and where is all the progress..
I suspect Dygz is just being tongue in cheek with his comment that we have seen the predator. I think everyone can agree that we haven't seen the rogue, and seeing the predator would mean we've seen the rogue.
Everyone knows the extent to which we have (haven't) seen the predator, especially Dygz and Noaani. Everyone is on the same page, so arguing the matter is a waste of life force.
I would estimate 65% of the posts on this forum would fall into that category, actually. I'm waiting on hold right now, which is the only reason I take the time to deliver this wisdom to you, my fellow forum goers.
It's always entertaining to see people from both sides of the fence insulting each other and claiming the other side doesn't know what they're talking about when it's clear that none of them do lol
But one side is making educated guesses, while the other is just trash talking.
lmao you have to be joking, furthermore if that is seeing the class and not just a piece of material they have made for a 2 minute cinematic, it again raises the question, why could the game look like that 7 years ago but looks like trash now, and where is all the progress..
Regardless of whether it's just for a 2 minute cinematic - we have still seen the Predator Class.
We have seen 6/8 Primary Archetypes and 1/64 Classes.
I didn't say anything like, "Well, since we've seen 1 Class, there should be no questions about development progress."
3 years after Alpha 1, I expect Alpha 2 should start with all 8 Primary Archetypes, all 8 of the main Races -especially Dunir - and we should be seeing some Secondary Archetype Augments.
But, the reality is what it is.
3
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's nearly October, guys. Just chill for a bit longer. Everyone wants this sooner rather than later, even Intrepid. But, just give them time to do their thing.
I have been watching this game for a few years now, I was thinking about buying the alpha 2 pack but this thread has shown me that that would be a bad idea.
Nothing to do with the state of the game, (but I am picking up a real Star Citizen vibe) the fact that the community seems so polarised and toxic. The point raised seemed logical, but the personal attacks and back and forth rants point to a baseline of aggression that wasn't in earlier gaming communities.
Maybe it's the frustration of waiting so long, but where are the DEVs, someone from the studio should be in this discussion. Baldur's Gate 3 with Larian and how they ran early access should have made a sea-change for any studio that offers early access.
I did see that the highest search topic from their studio is employee burnout followed by break room solutions, so I imagine that is what the issue is.
4
HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I have been watching this game for a few years now, I was thinking about buying the alpha 2 pack but this thread has shown me that that would be a bad idea.
Nothing to do with the state of the game, (but I am picking up a real Star Citizen vibe) the fact that the community seems so polarised and toxic. The point raised seemed logical, but the personal attacks and back and forth rants point to a baseline of aggression that wasn't in earlier gaming communities.
Maybe it's the frustration of waiting so long, but where are the DEVs, someone from the studio should be in this discussion. Baldur's Gate 3 with Larian and how they ran early access should have made a sea-change for any studio that offers early access.
I did see that the highest search topic from their studio is employee burnout followed by break room solutions, so I imagine that is what the issue is.
Good job wading in now. The bars open, pour yourself a cocktail. Grab a skewer. Park up your towel wherever feels good for you and don't forget to reapply the sunscreen.
The next couple of years are going to be even more entertaining, promise.
Nothing to do with the state of the game, (but I am picking up a real Star Citizen vibe) the fact that the community seems so polarised and toxic. The point raised seemed logical, but the personal attacks and back and forth rants point to a baseline of aggression that wasn't in earlier gaming communities.
To be fair, the OP's generally one of the main perpetrators there! Hahaha
And the points made weren't actually that good, when you look at them as part of a development process. You don't build a house from the top downwards, you build it from the ground upwards. He's asking for the middle/top floors, when the foundations and ground floors are still being made.
Ah my posts are not really directed at you, but I knew you would be here
Can't hurt to ask, right?
It is, indeed, Monday morning in Kyoto.
Obviously we have different opinions on the development of this game, let's keep it civil
We don't though.
I know it's probably not very clear, but I support your position on this matter entirely, just not your approach.
I too, would like 'Classic' Ashes of Creation and literally every day I wonder nostalgically what happened to it.
I just think this thread is really, really unlikely to help in any way.
You 100% wrong, thread like this, when they gather momentum, is exactly what causes change, or belter responses, its fanboi comment like yours, that do absolutely nothing to help!
You get your types in every single MMO dev cycle, always jumping on anything you consider negative towards the game.
Blind fanboi's, are often the death of a good game!
No, my post was definitely aimed at the right person.
Although there even worse in this thread, I’ve played MMO, for nigh on 30 years, if not longer, and the one thing that always proven fanboys, are poison for any mmo, it’s the ones who question, push, and demand that normally makes changes happened, maybe not always the right changes, but changes.
FanBois will not really see any wrong and when they forced to, they still hedge.
I don’t know why fanboi, always put game devs in pedestal, then normally do the most to tear them down, post game release.
Nothing to do with the state of the game, (but I am picking up a real Star Citizen vibe) the fact that the community seems so polarised and toxic. The point raised seemed logical, but the personal attacks and back and forth rants point to a baseline of aggression that wasn't in earlier gaming communities.
To be fair, the OP's generally one of the main perpetrators there! Hahaha
And the points made weren't actually that good, when you look at them as part of a development process. You don't build a house from the top downwards, you build it from the ground upwards. He's asking for the middle/top floors, when the foundations and ground floors are still being made.
You mean they were not good points in Your Opinion, as I thought they were spot on.
Would be nice if us simple foak with the real questions could be invited to an AMA lol
List 3 questions you would ask Steven....
Hmm I would most likely ask something along the lines of
Why is fomo being pushed so hard as a marketing technique and is the game still funded to completion given that we most likely won't even get a launch till 2030+
It's been stated that devs are working on systems simultaneously of each other, with now over 200 experienced devs, why are we not seeing any real progress?
Why do the visuals of the game vary so much from live stream to Livestream and were the showcases like weathering systems even real
As stated earlier I have no issue with the company or Steven, the issue I have is transparency, I would rather see one Livestream per quarter with real improvements than once a month that's usually delayed and shows next to nothing that we have not already seen every single month prior.
8 years into development I don't see the innovation, the gathering system is a copy and paste from new world, the commission's system is a copy and paste from new world, whilst I understand these systems are great and don't need much work changing as new world did them right, at least add some sort of uniqueness not just copy and paste
the combat is improving I'll give credit where credit is due, but is extremely sub par for a game that will release in 2030, we had the exact same combat in 2005. Where I fully understand this game is not for everyone it feels like the decisions made are pushing the game in the direction of the niche before it even launches. What happened to action combat?
Anyway these are just my opinions, I'm not trying to hate on anyone
Nothing to do with the state of the game, (but I am picking up a real Star Citizen vibe) the fact that the community seems so polarised and toxic. The point raised seemed logical, but the personal attacks and back and forth rants point to a baseline of aggression that wasn't in earlier gaming communities.
To be fair, the OP's generally one of the main perpetrators there! Hahaha
And the points made weren't actually that good, when you look at them as part of a development process. You don't build a house from the top downwards, you build it from the ground upwards. He's asking for the middle/top floors, when the foundations and ground floors are still being made.
Thank you for replying, the hahahaha! Sais all I need to know, however if these questions ever got answered I wouldn't need to ask them
If you were building a house, and went to inspect it and saw a small but solid base established, then went away for 3 years,
whilst away the builders were sending you videos of your beautiful house being built and it looked astonishing, you come back to inspect it again to find the house looks nothing like the videos, infact the entire base had been scrapped and all they had kept was a thin layer of cement which had been painted but was the exact same, you would be okay with it?
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's been stated that devs are working on systems simultaneously of each other, with now over 200 experienced devs, why are we not seeing any real progress?
Why do the visuals of the game vary so much from live stream to Livestream? Were the showcases like weathering systems even real?
As stated earlier I have no issue with the company or Steven, the issue I have is transparency, I would rather see one Livestream per quarter with real improvements than once a month that's usually delayed and shows next to nothing that we have not already seen every single month prior.
It's fine to want more transparency.
But... you can't get blood from a turnip.
Where I fully understand this game is not for everyone it feels like the decisions made are pushing the game in the direction of the niche before it even launches. What happened to action combat?
Ashes certainly became much more niche after Jeffrey Bard left.
Would be nice if us simple foak with the real questions could be invited to an AMA lol
List 3 questions you would ask Steven....
Hmm I would most likely ask something along the lines of
Why is fomo being pushed so hard as a marketing technique and is the game still funded to completion given that we most likely won't even get a launch till 2030+
It's been stated that devs are working on systems simultaneously of each other, with now over 200 experienced devs, why are we not seeing any real progress?
Why do the visuals of the game vary so much from live stream to Livestream and were the showcases like weathering systems even real
As stated earlier I have no issue with the company or Steven, the issue I have is transparency, I would rather see one Livestream per quarter with real improvements than once a month that's usually delayed and shows next to nothing that we have not already seen every single month prior.
8 years into development I don't see the innovation, the gathering system is a copy and paste from new world, the commission's system is a copy and paste from new world, whilst I understand these systems are great and don't need much work changing as new world did them right, at least add some sort of uniqueness not just copy and paste
the combat is improving I'll give credit where credit is due, but is extremely sub par for a game that will release in 2030, we had the exact same combat in 2005. Where I fully understand this game is not for everyone it feels like the decisions made are pushing the game in the direction of the niche before it even launches. What happened to action combat?
Anyway these are just my opinions, I'm not trying to hate on anyone
1. Fomo has nothing to do with the progress of the game this is a separate topic
2. 200 people doesn't mean 200 also includes people that are not building art related things. having around 200 is a recent thing in the last year. As you are not clarifying you could be stretching or doing misinformation if you re trying to suggest the have had 200 people for a certain amount of years or at the start of the project.
3. This has been explained to you in this thread, and in other threads but you continue to ignore people. I've even went as far as explain the details on why the looks of things can be different on a technical level. ( @Apok (this is why i said its a waste before as its been explained I've had to repeat this in multiple threads and he still uses the same point)
For the 4th time if they are changing lighting DO to PBR which gets its information from lighting it greatly effects all things in the scene so that is one of the things where you will see different quality. It is not limited to that, you are seeing a actual alpha in development they are also trying to polish.
This is akin to asking why a construction site looks messing as people are int he middle of building the house... I don't know how you are bringing this kind of point up again and again. This is a alpha not early access.
4. 8 years in development doesn't mean full production development, you are also talking about the preproduction, and the time they were not in full production on creating the game and content. You can look at other games that do preproduction ahead of time and most likely won't include the time that goes into that. On top of that this is a indie studio its going to be slower for them before it gets into full production as this is an expensive genre to make.
5. I don't really care about this combat aspect.
These are not strong points....I'm sure there are much better ones that make sense. This is more like you complaining a alpha is in development and isn't a full game yet.
Would be nice if us simple foak with the real questions could be invited to an AMA lol
List 3 questions you would ask Steven....
Hmm I would most likely ask something along the lines of
Why is fomo being pushed so hard as a marketing technique and is the game still funded to completion given that we most likely won't even get a launch till 2030+
It's been stated that devs are working on systems simultaneously of each other, with now over 200 experienced devs, why are we not seeing any real progress?
Why do the visuals of the game vary so much from live stream to Livestream and were the showcases like weathering systems even real
As stated earlier I have no issue with the company or Steven, the issue I have is transparency, I would rather see one Livestream per quarter with real improvements than once a month that's usually delayed and shows next to nothing that we have not already seen every single month prior.
8 years into development I don't see the innovation, the gathering system is a copy and paste from new world, the commission's system is a copy and paste from new world, whilst I understand these systems are great and don't need much work changing as new world did them right, at least add some sort of uniqueness not just copy and paste
the combat is improving I'll give credit where credit is due, but is extremely sub par for a game that will release in 2030, we had the exact same combat in 2005. Where I fully understand this game is not for everyone it feels like the decisions made are pushing the game in the direction of the niche before it even launches. What happened to action combat?
Anyway these are just my opinions, I'm not trying to hate on anyone
1. Fomo has nothing to do with the progress of the game this is a separate topic
2. 200 people doesn't mean 200 also includes people that are not building art related things. having around 200 is a recent thing in the last year. As you are not clarifying you could be stretching or doing misinformation if you re trying to suggest the have had 200 people for a certain amount of years or at the start of the project.
3. This has been explained to you in this thread, and in other threads but you continue to ignore people. I've even went as far as explain the details on why the looks of things can be different on a technical level. ( @Apok (this is why i said its a waste before as its been explained I've had to repeat this in multiple threads and he still uses the same point)
For the 4th time if they are changing lighting DO to PBR which gets its information from lighting it greatly effects all things in the scene so that is one of the things where you will see different quality. It is not limited to that, you are seeing a actual alpha in development they are also trying to polish.
This is akin to asking why a construction site looks messing as people are int he middle of building the house... I don't know how you are bringing this kind of point up again and again. This is a alpha not early access.
4. 8 years in development doesn't mean full production development, you are also talking about the preproduction, and the time they were not in full production on creating the game and content. You can look at other games that do preproduction ahead of time and most likely won't include the time that goes into that. On top of that this is a indie studio its going to be slower for them before it gets into full production as this is an expensive genre to make.
5. I don't really care about this combat aspect.
These are not strong points....I'm sure there are much better ones that make sense. This is more like you complaining a alpha is in development and isn't a full game yet.
There is not much point having this conversation with you mate, no hard feelings but the questions I would like answered from intrepid. I understand they have not had 200 devs for the entirety of the project but the reason I made this post essentially is the dragon showcase, if you believe that 3 years of progress have been added to that encounter I have nothing to say to you
Furthermore I agree progress has been made with lighting etc, the graphics are not my issue, my issue is that apart from the tiny points of interest setup souly for the live streams, the rest of the map from what I have seen just looks bland, UE5 can make the visuals of the world looks amazing but the world it's self to engage people needs a real artist and I feel like this is what the game is lacking ( the question of why the game looks so different and varies so much in live streams ). And yes I understand it's an alpha but we should be seeing elements of completeness in the world by now even if unpolished
The question about the fomo, it is another topic but this is also my post and the topic was raised so I think it's reasonable to ask.
To conclude I think it's great you disagree with me, even encourage it, but to me personally the answers you give about these questions are not good enough, I think most people don't understand how negatively these issues can effect the finished product. Say for example we have 6 years left minimum, it feels like ( I could be wrong ) intrepid are running out of money with all the fomo marketing, if intrepid need to get a sponsor or partnership because of the long release schedule this is how p2w aspects come in and everything we don't want
Would be nice if us simple foak with the real questions could be invited to an AMA lol
List 3 questions you would ask Steven....
Hmm I would most likely ask something along the lines of
Why is fomo being pushed so hard as a marketing technique and is the game still funded to completion given that we most likely won't even get a launch till 2030+
It's been stated that devs are working on systems simultaneously of each other, with now over 200 experienced devs, why are we not seeing any real progress?
Why do the visuals of the game vary so much from live stream to Livestream and were the showcases like weathering systems even real
As stated earlier I have no issue with the company or Steven, the issue I have is transparency, I would rather see one Livestream per quarter with real improvements than once a month that's usually delayed and shows next to nothing that we have not already seen every single month prior.
8 years into development I don't see the innovation, the gathering system is a copy and paste from new world, the commission's system is a copy and paste from new world, whilst I understand these systems are great and don't need much work changing as new world did them right, at least add some sort of uniqueness not just copy and paste
the combat is improving I'll give credit where credit is due, but is extremely sub par for a game that will release in 2030, we had the exact same combat in 2005. Where I fully understand this game is not for everyone it feels like the decisions made are pushing the game in the direction of the niche before it even launches. What happened to action combat?
Anyway these are just my opinions, I'm not trying to hate on anyone
1. Fomo has nothing to do with the progress of the game this is a separate topic
2. 200 people doesn't mean 200 also includes people that are not building art related things. having around 200 is a recent thing in the last year. As you are not clarifying you could be stretching or doing misinformation if you re trying to suggest the have had 200 people for a certain amount of years or at the start of the project.
3. This has been explained to you in this thread, and in other threads but you continue to ignore people. I've even went as far as explain the details on why the looks of things can be different on a technical level. ( @Apok (this is why i said its a waste before as its been explained I've had to repeat this in multiple threads and he still uses the same point)
For the 4th time if they are changing lighting DO to PBR which gets its information from lighting it greatly effects all things in the scene so that is one of the things where you will see different quality. It is not limited to that, you are seeing a actual alpha in development they are also trying to polish.
This is akin to asking why a construction site looks messing as people are int he middle of building the house... I don't know how you are bringing this kind of point up again and again. This is a alpha not early access.
4. 8 years in development doesn't mean full production development, you are also talking about the preproduction, and the time they were not in full production on creating the game and content. You can look at other games that do preproduction ahead of time and most likely won't include the time that goes into that. On top of that this is a indie studio its going to be slower for them before it gets into full production as this is an expensive genre to make.
5. I don't really care about this combat aspect.
These are not strong points....I'm sure there are much better ones that make sense. This is more like you complaining a alpha is in development and isn't a full game yet.
There is not much point having this conversation with you mate, no hard feelings but the questions I would like answered from intrepid. I understand they have not had 200 devs for the entirety of the project but the reason I made this post essentially is the dragon showcase, if you believe that 3 years of progress have been added to that encounter I have nothing to say to you
Furthermore I agree progress has been made with lighting etc, the graphics are not my issue, my issue is that apart from the tiny points of interest setup souly for the live streams, the rest of the map from what I have seen just looks bland, UE5 can make the visuals of the world looks amazing but the world it's self to engage people needs a real artist and I feel like this is what the game is lacking ( the question of why the game looks so different and varies so much in live streams ). And yes I understand it's an alpha but we should be seeing elements of completeness in the world by now even if unpolished
The question about the fomo, it is another topic but this is also my post and the topic was raised so I think it's reasonable to ask.
To conclude I think it's great you disagree with me, even encourage it, but to me personally the answers you give about these questions are not good enough, I think most people don't understand how negatively these issues can effect the finished product. Say for example we have 6 years left minimum, it feels like ( I could be wrong ) intrepid are running out of money with all the fomo marketing, if intrepid need to get a sponsor or partnership because of the long release schedule this is how p2w aspects come in and everything we don't want
This idea that you don't see 3 years of progress on a random level 25 raid boss does not make sense. You are trying to make a blanket statement when there is no reason for 3 years of progress to be seen on a single boss. Point of that was another open world boss people will be fighting that has some unique mechanics, the same how all open world bosses will end up being.
The map is massive not every single spot is going to be looking like a image to have a screenshot of. Your expectations are really out of the mark, not to mention the game is in development. You trying to make a argument areas don't look as good as you want to is more a question for after alpha or the end of alpha not during....
This doesn't make sense you are talking about seeing world completeness in a alpha state. Why on early are you going to see a complete state before we see all the biomes that are needed int he game. Again this is what happens (and you have admitted) to not understanding development. They aren't going to be finishing one biome but working on all them so they can test content in the areas and get them tested. There is no reason to see something in completeness right now...
You can ask whatever you want it has nothing to do with "Where is the progress" It is makes the thread more toxic as you have admitted to ranting. Which the point of that ends up just leading to get a bunch of people to jump on some hate train, which is very not productive in any kind of element of feedback. Trying to say where is the progress but then trying to throw any kind of negative feedback not to even do with the thread is a clear sign of that.
If you are worried about he game running out of funding make a thread for that and say IS is running out of money and they need to change what they are doing with your speculation, don't throw it into this thread.
Would be nice if us simple foak with the real questions could be invited to an AMA lol
List 3 questions you would ask Steven....
Hmm I would most likely ask something along the lines of
Why is fomo being pushed so hard as a marketing technique and is the game still funded to completion given that we most likely won't even get a launch till 2030+
It's been stated that devs are working on systems simultaneously of each other, with now over 200 experienced devs, why are we not seeing any real progress?
Why do the visuals of the game vary so much from live stream to Livestream and were the showcases like weathering systems even real
As stated earlier I have no issue with the company or Steven, the issue I have is transparency, I would rather see one Livestream per quarter with real improvements than once a month that's usually delayed and shows next to nothing that we have not already seen every single month prior.
8 years into development I don't see the innovation, the gathering system is a copy and paste from new world, the commission's system is a copy and paste from new world, whilst I understand these systems are great and don't need much work changing as new world did them right, at least add some sort of uniqueness not just copy and paste
the combat is improving I'll give credit where credit is due, but is extremely sub par for a game that will release in 2030, we had the exact same combat in 2005. Where I fully understand this game is not for everyone it feels like the decisions made are pushing the game in the direction of the niche before it even launches. What happened to action combat?
Anyway these are just my opinions, I'm not trying to hate on anyone
1. Fomo has nothing to do with the progress of the game this is a separate topic
2. 200 people doesn't mean 200 also includes people that are not building art related things. having around 200 is a recent thing in the last year. As you are not clarifying you could be stretching or doing misinformation if you re trying to suggest the have had 200 people for a certain amount of years or at the start of the project.
3. This has been explained to you in this thread, and in other threads but you continue to ignore people. I've even went as far as explain the details on why the looks of things can be different on a technical level. ( @Apok (this is why i said its a waste before as its been explained I've had to repeat this in multiple threads and he still uses the same point)
For the 4th time if they are changing lighting DO to PBR which gets its information from lighting it greatly effects all things in the scene so that is one of the things where you will see different quality. It is not limited to that, you are seeing a actual alpha in development they are also trying to polish.
This is akin to asking why a construction site looks messing as people are int he middle of building the house... I don't know how you are bringing this kind of point up again and again. This is a alpha not early access.
4. 8 years in development doesn't mean full production development, you are also talking about the preproduction, and the time they were not in full production on creating the game and content. You can look at other games that do preproduction ahead of time and most likely won't include the time that goes into that. On top of that this is a indie studio its going to be slower for them before it gets into full production as this is an expensive genre to make.
5. I don't really care about this combat aspect.
These are not strong points....I'm sure there are much better ones that make sense. This is more like you complaining a alpha is in development and isn't a full game yet.
There is not much point having this conversation with you mate, no hard feelings but the questions I would like answered from intrepid. I understand they have not had 200 devs for the entirety of the project but the reason I made this post essentially is the dragon showcase, if you believe that 3 years of progress have been added to that encounter I have nothing to say to you
Furthermore I agree progress has been made with lighting etc, the graphics are not my issue, my issue is that apart from the tiny points of interest setup souly for the live streams, the rest of the map from what I have seen just looks bland, UE5 can make the visuals of the world looks amazing but the world it's self to engage people needs a real artist and I feel like this is what the game is lacking ( the question of why the game looks so different and varies so much in live streams ). And yes I understand it's an alpha but we should be seeing elements of completeness in the world by now even if unpolished
The question about the fomo, it is another topic but this is also my post and the topic was raised so I think it's reasonable to ask.
To conclude I think it's great you disagree with me, even encourage it, but to me personally the answers you give about these questions are not good enough, I think most people don't understand how negatively these issues can effect the finished product. Say for example we have 6 years left minimum, it feels like ( I could be wrong ) intrepid are running out of money with all the fomo marketing, if intrepid need to get a sponsor or partnership because of the long release schedule this is how p2w aspects come in and everything we don't want
This idea that you don't see 3 years of progress on a random level 25 raid boss does not make sense. You are trying to make a blanket statement when there is no reason for 3 years of progress to be seen on a single boss. Point of that was another open world boss people will be fighting that has some unique mechanics, the same how all open world bosses will end up being.
The map is massive not every single spot is going to be looking like a image to have a screenshot of. Your expectations are really out of the mark, not to mention the game is in development. You trying to make a argument areas don't look as good as you want to is more a question for after alpha or the end of alpha not during....
This doesn't make sense you are talking about seeing world completeness in a alpha state. Why on early are you going to see a complete state before we see all the biomes that are needed int he game. Again this is what happens (and you have admitted) to not understanding development. They aren't going to be finishing one biome but working on all them so they can test content in the areas and get them tested. There is no reason to see something in completeness right now...
You can ask whatever you want it has nothing to do with "Where is the progress" It is makes the thread more toxic as you have admitted to ranting. Which the point of that ends up just leading to get a bunch of people to jump on some hate train, which is very not productive in any kind of element of feedback. Trying to say where is the progress but then trying to throw any kind of negative feedback not to even do with the thread is a clear sign of that.
If you are worried about he game running out of funding make a thread for that and say IS is running out of money and they need to change what they are doing with your speculation, don't throw it into this thread.
i not once asked for 3 years of progress on a world boss, but the reality is there is not 3 months of progress added onto this world boss, it is the exact same, down to the last bad animation, its also not a random level 25 mob its one of the first encounters to a world boss in the game, also why is it unrealistic to expect progress on this after such a time period? i will remind you, this exact world boss has ALREADY been previewed 3 years prior, its ALREADY had the exact same forum post made asking for feedback and suggestions, and now we are 3 years on, asking for the exact same feedback that was not taken into account the first time around? what are we doing...
secondly i understand the map is massive and not every single spot will not look like a screen shot, but the point is, 3 years ago, the livestreams looked like the world had a soul, in todays livestreams it looks like whoever is working on the world, is spending a few weeks developing tiny portions to make the next livestream look good, and the rest of the world looks more bland than white rice, its just the same mountain, the same rock and the same tree copy and pasted into infinity to add the illusion that the world has anything more than 300 kms of nothing, YES you are right its an alpha, but after 8 years, there should be small area's of the world that dont need an entire re work, how many people noticed the high density fog and sunlight in the last livestream? i can guarantee thats just to hide the fact that there is nothing else outside of the crappy area for a boss fight
if you think my criticism is bad and toxic, you will have quite a shock when the NDA of A2 is released if it drops in this state, everything im saying, may sound toxic but one of the smartest things intrepid could do is take in on board, 200 of the best devs on the planet, we are at the point where they should be the ones making the calls and just focusing on designing the game instead of trying to get feedback on every single system that they show and just develop, at this point during the livestreams, they don't even sound like they want to be there anymore there is no excitement in their voice its hard to watch.
its quite obvious that the other two biomes added for the launch of A2 have been converted into '' lawless '' area's to hide the fact their not even remotely close to being done, and the fact that the entire A1 map was scrapped just for it to look worse 3 years on is a serious issue
also i will add, you think that me bringing up funding for the game is another topic, if intrepid are going to use low fomo marketing techniques to get people to Fomo into this game, then that is the EXACT reason we should be seeing more progress, and if you want to look at the 10s of millions of dollars that have been funded by the community for this game since A1, then yes the question needs to be asked what is it being used for if basic dragon animations are still the same 3 years prior, as i stated many times, if this didnt feel like a cash grab then there would be no issue with how slow the development process is or what progress had been made, but since they are doing everything in their power to influence the community to donate to the project then yes we want answers
No, my post was definitely aimed at the right person.
Although there even worse in this thread, I’ve played MMO, for nigh on 30 years, if not longer, and the one thing that always proven fanboys, are poison for any mmo, it’s the ones who question, push, and demand that normally makes changes happened, maybe not always the right changes, but changes.
FanBois will not really see any wrong and when they forced to, they still hedge.
I don’t know why fanboi, always put game devs in pedestal, then normally do the most to tear them down, post game release.
Best posting so far.
Same here, throwing ~25 years of MMO experience in, starting with DAoC and ending with New World. Played nearly all in between beside Archage and L2 - and that was and still is best decision in my entire pc gaming career, watching my full steam, battlenet, EA, Epic, Ubisoft library with hundrets of games and all pc milestones that you can buy with money.
I have been watching this game for a few years now, I was thinking about buying the alpha 2 pack but this thread has shown me that that would be a bad idea.
Nothing to do with the state of the game, (but I am picking up a real Star Citizen vibe) the fact that the community seems so polarised and toxic. The point raised seemed logical, but the personal attacks and back and forth rants point to a baseline of aggression that wasn't in earlier gaming communities.
Maybe it's the frustration of waiting so long, but where are the DEVs, someone from the studio should be in this discussion. Baldur's Gate 3 with Larian and how they ran early access should have made a sea-change for any studio that offers early access.
I did see that the highest search topic from their studio is employee burnout followed by break room solutions, so I imagine that is what the issue is.
Well I never bought (and never will buy) a product that is not finished or released. And if I invest my money, I want to get ALL information, all business and financial information, all the company stuff needed - so, like seroius investments are done and how investors work in professional business.
And you seem to be right when talking about the communty. It seems to be a VERY special community coming out from a dead game (Lineage 2) with all that burned earth and those swarm is now starting to explain other MMO players (the majoriy) how content, features and things work...
I really don't care about 90 Euros buying a key, but it's not worth it for now AND the entire situation must be the other way round: If I should invest my time, intrepid can pay me. I can provide my daily rate, that's fine for me. But even this philosophy for me is just wrong: You say you want to gather feedback, but what you want, is, to get feedback from paying customers so you want to get confirmation within you own bubble. That's cheating, that's artificial feedback gathering. I'm a critical, really I'm am. It needs a lot to convince me or change my experience, but for the moment I'm no paying customer so intrepid and Steven doesnt care about my opinion. And those L2 fanboys in this forum also.
But: If I now just would buy an alpha key, would take me some seconds with paypal or credit card, I surprisingly would transfer in a player giving valuable feedback where intrepid is interested in. That's bad practicse, that's not ok. And the entire internet had the same opinon on that and that's just because they are right, those practices are bad. It's no scam, but it's bad business practice. Imagine other developers starting to take over this shit, then we will pay for all our games during development and we will pay for the glory of testing for the company for all future games.
Comments
To be fair though, just because some people think something is negative doesn't mean that it actually is or that the majority agrees. Some people are going to like the design changes that have been made over the last couple of years and some aren't. Unless a change appears to be disliked by a large majority then chances are Intrepid is going to move forward with it. I'm indifferent towards most of the smaller changes and even what seems to be a move away from action combat (I like both action oriented and tab target, so as long as the overall combat design is cohesive and fun then I don't care which way they take it). I like the overarching design philosophy behind the game and that hasn't really changed.
That said, people should absolutely be allowed to voice their concerns and criticisms without being attacked or belittled. That happens too often on this forum, and even people that point out that that should be allowed even if they don't actually agree with the criticisms get attacked by some of the more zealous fanboys because they just can't fathom that someone might be able to see the point of the "opposing" side of the argument without actually agreeing with them.
So pretty much this guy wants a gate way to say anything about the game and not have conflict for their own points.
This is typical behavior ive seen on social media where they try to label you to attempt to be little you not agreeing with their wild takes. People here are seeing a echo chamber to grow so their idea (even if its against the core of the game, or is actually a really bad take) can get friction. And don't want people to disagree with them ^_-
*edit mind you this being said about a post that was said to be a rant, and a title complaining about where is the progress in the game that is being developed and openly showing progress.
I fully agree with the approach not only to talk to fans that know about 0-3 MMOs out there, but plenty of them. Both pve and pvp wise.
I fully agree that no fan should start to talk like the developer itself and start to defend by any means mechanics, that are bad, but argumented with „but Steven wants it like this“. So is feedback really (!) welcomed then? Just dont ask if you fear to get a „No, thats shit, because“.
I fully agree with the approach to say it directly if something seems to be bad if thats already known from experience of other MMOs (again: Beyond the knowledge of only 1-2 of them) snd therefore make a wake up call to get things changed or optimized as long as there is time for it. Thats no rant, thats an emergency approach to alert and thus get attention to discuss and not soothing down important topics.
If all this is not welcomed, so echo chamber is preferred, close the forum, stop asking for discussion and feedback during agile development.
Moreover: If providing a showcase, get the target aufience right. If beginning of September 2024, so 7 years after development start, PvE content is shown (with the same dragon known before) and in end of August 2024 Stream 15min are talked about „we will have maces in our game“ (well, which MMO doesnt have plenty of or nearly all weapon types?) thats just strange.
Show this dragon fight with 3 groups pvp-ing each other for 3-4 hours (you can summarize/cut vids, right?) so focus on what the game will be and do not attract and play with the gamers out there by misleading expectation management.
I kinda want to have this Conversation.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Would be nice if us simple foak with the real questions could be invited to an AMA lol
In what world do you consider that to be "seeing" the preditor subclass?
Tell me what abilities they have, what role they fill, how they differ from other rogue subclasses - anything.
What we have here isn't us having "seen" the preditor class, we have a 7 year old piece of promotional material that has the word "preditor" in it.
If we are to consider that as being all that is needed to "see" a subclass, then we may as well say that we have seen all subclasses of the 6 primary archetypes we have seen - because we have just as much information on each of those as subclasses than we do about the preditor.
Literally.
Oh? what stuff have we seen? What's the names of some of those abilities? How do preditor augments alter rogue abilities?
Again, what we have above is a promotional video, not a showcase.
lmao you have to be joking, furthermore if that is seeing the class and not just a piece of material they have made for a 2 minute cinematic, it again raises the question, why could the game look like that 7 years ago but looks like trash now, and where is all the progress..
Everyone knows the extent to which we have (haven't) seen the predator, especially Dygz and Noaani. Everyone is on the same page, so arguing the matter is a waste of life force.
I would estimate 65% of the posts on this forum would fall into that category, actually. I'm waiting on hold right now, which is the only reason I take the time to deliver this wisdom to you, my fellow forum goers.
But one side is making educated guesses, while the other is just trash talking.
We have seen 6/8 Primary Archetypes and 1/64 Classes.
I didn't say anything like, "Well, since we've seen 1 Class, there should be no questions about development progress."
3 years after Alpha 1, I expect Alpha 2 should start with all 8 Primary Archetypes, all 8 of the main Races -especially Dunir - and we should be seeing some Secondary Archetype Augments.
But, the reality is what it is.
Nothing to do with the state of the game, (but I am picking up a real Star Citizen vibe) the fact that the community seems so polarised and toxic. The point raised seemed logical, but the personal attacks and back and forth rants point to a baseline of aggression that wasn't in earlier gaming communities.
Maybe it's the frustration of waiting so long, but where are the DEVs, someone from the studio should be in this discussion. Baldur's Gate 3 with Larian and how they ran early access should have made a sea-change for any studio that offers early access.
I did see that the highest search topic from their studio is employee burnout followed by break room solutions, so I imagine that is what the issue is.
Good job wading in now. The bars open, pour yourself a cocktail. Grab a skewer. Park up your towel wherever feels good for you and don't forget to reapply the sunscreen.
The next couple of years are going to be even more entertaining, promise.
To be fair, the OP's generally one of the main perpetrators there! Hahaha
And the points made weren't actually that good, when you look at them as part of a development process. You don't build a house from the top downwards, you build it from the ground upwards. He's asking for the middle/top floors, when the foundations and ground floors are still being made.
No, my post was definitely aimed at the right person.
Although there even worse in this thread, I’ve played MMO, for nigh on 30 years, if not longer, and the one thing that always proven fanboys, are poison for any mmo, it’s the ones who question, push, and demand that normally makes changes happened, maybe not always the right changes, but changes.
FanBois will not really see any wrong and when they forced to, they still hedge.
I don’t know why fanboi, always put game devs in pedestal, then normally do the most to tear them down, post game release.
You mean they were not good points in Your Opinion, as I thought they were spot on.
Typical answer.
Hmm I would most likely ask something along the lines of
Why is fomo being pushed so hard as a marketing technique and is the game still funded to completion given that we most likely won't even get a launch till 2030+
It's been stated that devs are working on systems simultaneously of each other, with now over 200 experienced devs, why are we not seeing any real progress?
Why do the visuals of the game vary so much from live stream to Livestream and were the showcases like weathering systems even real
As stated earlier I have no issue with the company or Steven, the issue I have is transparency, I would rather see one Livestream per quarter with real improvements than once a month that's usually delayed and shows next to nothing that we have not already seen every single month prior.
8 years into development I don't see the innovation, the gathering system is a copy and paste from new world, the commission's system is a copy and paste from new world, whilst I understand these systems are great and don't need much work changing as new world did them right, at least add some sort of uniqueness not just copy and paste
the combat is improving I'll give credit where credit is due, but is extremely sub par for a game that will release in 2030, we had the exact same combat in 2005. Where I fully understand this game is not for everyone it feels like the decisions made are pushing the game in the direction of the niche before it even launches. What happened to action combat?
Anyway these are just my opinions, I'm not trying to hate on anyone
Thank you for replying, the hahahaha! Sais all I need to know, however if these questions ever got answered I wouldn't need to ask them
If you were building a house, and went to inspect it and saw a small but solid base established, then went away for 3 years,
whilst away the builders were sending you videos of your beautiful house being built and it looked astonishing, you come back to inspect it again to find the house looks nothing like the videos, infact the entire base had been scrapped and all they had kept was a thin layer of cement which had been painted but was the exact same, you would be okay with it?
It's fine to want more transparency.
But... you can't get blood from a turnip.
Ashes certainly became much more niche after Jeffrey Bard left.
No worries. I feel you.
1. Fomo has nothing to do with the progress of the game this is a separate topic
2. 200 people doesn't mean 200 also includes people that are not building art related things. having around 200 is a recent thing in the last year. As you are not clarifying you could be stretching or doing misinformation if you re trying to suggest the have had 200 people for a certain amount of years or at the start of the project.
3. This has been explained to you in this thread, and in other threads but you continue to ignore people. I've even went as far as explain the details on why the looks of things can be different on a technical level. ( @Apok (this is why i said its a waste before as its been explained I've had to repeat this in multiple threads and he still uses the same point)
For the 4th time if they are changing lighting DO to PBR which gets its information from lighting it greatly effects all things in the scene so that is one of the things where you will see different quality. It is not limited to that, you are seeing a actual alpha in development they are also trying to polish.
This is akin to asking why a construction site looks messing as people are int he middle of building the house... I don't know how you are bringing this kind of point up again and again. This is a alpha not early access.
4. 8 years in development doesn't mean full production development, you are also talking about the preproduction, and the time they were not in full production on creating the game and content. You can look at other games that do preproduction ahead of time and most likely won't include the time that goes into that. On top of that this is a indie studio its going to be slower for them before it gets into full production as this is an expensive genre to make.
5. I don't really care about this combat aspect.
These are not strong points....I'm sure there are much better ones that make sense. This is more like you complaining a alpha is in development and isn't a full game yet.
There is not much point having this conversation with you mate, no hard feelings but the questions I would like answered from intrepid. I understand they have not had 200 devs for the entirety of the project but the reason I made this post essentially is the dragon showcase, if you believe that 3 years of progress have been added to that encounter I have nothing to say to you
Furthermore I agree progress has been made with lighting etc, the graphics are not my issue, my issue is that apart from the tiny points of interest setup souly for the live streams, the rest of the map from what I have seen just looks bland, UE5 can make the visuals of the world looks amazing but the world it's self to engage people needs a real artist and I feel like this is what the game is lacking ( the question of why the game looks so different and varies so much in live streams ). And yes I understand it's an alpha but we should be seeing elements of completeness in the world by now even if unpolished
The question about the fomo, it is another topic but this is also my post and the topic was raised so I think it's reasonable to ask.
To conclude I think it's great you disagree with me, even encourage it, but to me personally the answers you give about these questions are not good enough, I think most people don't understand how negatively these issues can effect the finished product. Say for example we have 6 years left minimum, it feels like ( I could be wrong ) intrepid are running out of money with all the fomo marketing, if intrepid need to get a sponsor or partnership because of the long release schedule this is how p2w aspects come in and everything we don't want
This idea that you don't see 3 years of progress on a random level 25 raid boss does not make sense. You are trying to make a blanket statement when there is no reason for 3 years of progress to be seen on a single boss. Point of that was another open world boss people will be fighting that has some unique mechanics, the same how all open world bosses will end up being.
The map is massive not every single spot is going to be looking like a image to have a screenshot of. Your expectations are really out of the mark, not to mention the game is in development. You trying to make a argument areas don't look as good as you want to is more a question for after alpha or the end of alpha not during....
This doesn't make sense you are talking about seeing world completeness in a alpha state. Why on early are you going to see a complete state before we see all the biomes that are needed int he game. Again this is what happens (and you have admitted) to not understanding development. They aren't going to be finishing one biome but working on all them so they can test content in the areas and get them tested. There is no reason to see something in completeness right now...
You can ask whatever you want it has nothing to do with "Where is the progress" It is makes the thread more toxic as you have admitted to ranting. Which the point of that ends up just leading to get a bunch of people to jump on some hate train, which is very not productive in any kind of element of feedback. Trying to say where is the progress but then trying to throw any kind of negative feedback not to even do with the thread is a clear sign of that.
If you are worried about he game running out of funding make a thread for that and say IS is running out of money and they need to change what they are doing with your speculation, don't throw it into this thread.
i not once asked for 3 years of progress on a world boss, but the reality is there is not 3 months of progress added onto this world boss, it is the exact same, down to the last bad animation, its also not a random level 25 mob its one of the first encounters to a world boss in the game, also why is it unrealistic to expect progress on this after such a time period? i will remind you, this exact world boss has ALREADY been previewed 3 years prior, its ALREADY had the exact same forum post made asking for feedback and suggestions, and now we are 3 years on, asking for the exact same feedback that was not taken into account the first time around? what are we doing...
secondly i understand the map is massive and not every single spot will not look like a screen shot, but the point is, 3 years ago, the livestreams looked like the world had a soul, in todays livestreams it looks like whoever is working on the world, is spending a few weeks developing tiny portions to make the next livestream look good, and the rest of the world looks more bland than white rice, its just the same mountain, the same rock and the same tree copy and pasted into infinity to add the illusion that the world has anything more than 300 kms of nothing, YES you are right its an alpha, but after 8 years, there should be small area's of the world that dont need an entire re work, how many people noticed the high density fog and sunlight in the last livestream? i can guarantee thats just to hide the fact that there is nothing else outside of the crappy area for a boss fight
if you think my criticism is bad and toxic, you will have quite a shock when the NDA of A2 is released if it drops in this state, everything im saying, may sound toxic but one of the smartest things intrepid could do is take in on board, 200 of the best devs on the planet, we are at the point where they should be the ones making the calls and just focusing on designing the game instead of trying to get feedback on every single system that they show and just develop, at this point during the livestreams, they don't even sound like they want to be there anymore there is no excitement in their voice its hard to watch.
its quite obvious that the other two biomes added for the launch of A2 have been converted into '' lawless '' area's to hide the fact their not even remotely close to being done, and the fact that the entire A1 map was scrapped just for it to look worse 3 years on is a serious issue
also i will add, you think that me bringing up funding for the game is another topic, if intrepid are going to use low fomo marketing techniques to get people to Fomo into this game, then that is the EXACT reason we should be seeing more progress, and if you want to look at the 10s of millions of dollars that have been funded by the community for this game since A1, then yes the question needs to be asked what is it being used for if basic dragon animations are still the same 3 years prior, as i stated many times, if this didnt feel like a cash grab then there would be no issue with how slow the development process is or what progress had been made, but since they are doing everything in their power to influence the community to donate to the project then yes we want answers
Best posting so far.
Same here, throwing ~25 years of MMO experience in, starting with DAoC and ending with New World. Played nearly all in between beside Archage and L2 - and that was and still is best decision in my entire pc gaming career, watching my full steam, battlenet, EA, Epic, Ubisoft library with hundrets of games and all pc milestones that you can buy with money.
And you seem to be right when talking about the communty. It seems to be a VERY special community coming out from a dead game (Lineage 2) with all that burned earth and those swarm is now starting to explain other MMO players (the majoriy) how content, features and things work...
I really don't care about 90 Euros buying a key, but it's not worth it for now AND the entire situation must be the other way round: If I should invest my time, intrepid can pay me. I can provide my daily rate, that's fine for me. But even this philosophy for me is just wrong: You say you want to gather feedback, but what you want, is, to get feedback from paying customers so you want to get confirmation within you own bubble. That's cheating, that's artificial feedback gathering. I'm a critical, really I'm am. It needs a lot to convince me or change my experience, but for the moment I'm no paying customer so intrepid and Steven doesnt care about my opinion. And those L2 fanboys in this forum also.
But: If I now just would buy an alpha key, would take me some seconds with paypal or credit card, I surprisingly would transfer in a player giving valuable feedback where intrepid is interested in. That's bad practicse, that's not ok. And the entire internet had the same opinon on that and that's just because they are right, those practices are bad. It's no scam, but it's bad business practice. Imagine other developers starting to take over this shit, then we will pay for all our games during development and we will pay for the glory of testing for the company for all future games.