I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
DPS Meters are bad since they make everything PvE related a 'race' and gives people a reason to 'sh*t on' others. It can at times even lead to toxicity. The other side however, is that it lets you track performance and whether everyone is pulling their weight (whats to stop me from just auto attacking? what incentive do I have to pull my own weight?). This all depends entirely on where PvE goes.
E.g. If PvE is trivial and my DPS doesn't matter much, then I don't think DPS meters are required at all.
If PvE encounters end up being more difficult and complex ala WoW, then thats where DPS meters come in handy. Another factor is class balance, i.e. some DPS classes will have to work harder than others based off balance. Hopefully Intrepid can balance class damage output well, but we'll see.
The only way I can think of incentivising players to perform their best, without a DPS meter is to tie loot to performance on a boss. You could break loot rewards into tiers:
Bronze - 100,000 Dmg done,
Silver - 250,000 Dmg done,
Gold - 400,000 Dmg done in a fight.
The only way I can think of incentivising players to perform their best, without a DPS meter is to tie loot to performance on a boss. You could break loot rewards into tiers:
Bronze - 100,000 Dmg done,
Silver - 250,000 Dmg done,
Gold - 400,000 Dmg done in a fight.
I wouldn't be against a generalised meter that had categories like the expected dps needed for a top tier boss is mythic, then the next tier down is legendary and so on. this makes it so you can show who's carrying wieght and gets around elitism.
Well in a video Jeff said that this game is going to be about builds plus want to note that there are no gear restrictions plus 64 archetypes point think would be pretty hard to test them out by trial an error or live runs.
So toon is going to have a full plate of options but no combat tracker to analyze them. So kind of makes builds more vague and in my opinion deters from their value if you do not know what their contribution is in terms of numbers.
I did say that trial and error was the best way to test out dps but it is not about the dps per say it is more about knowing what the different builds and options strenghs and weakenesses are. This is especially true in PvP but also pertainent in PvE. Looks like I am contradicting my self but main point is that even though live runs and trail and error are the best way to find out your class capabilities, the number of options in this game are so great that it makes a dps meter/combat tracker very useful and would save you alot of time.
Ultimately, DPS meters aren't even a good evaluator of someone's performance. Even the highest DPS person in your group can fail or die and even wipe an entire group.
I did say that trial and error was the best way to test out dps but it is not about the dps per say it is more about knowing what the different builds and options strenghs and weakenesses are. This is especially true in PvP but also pertainent in PvE. Looks like I am contradicting my self but main point is that even though live runs and trail and error are the best way to find out your class capabilities, the number of options in this game are so great that it makes a dps meter/combat tracker very useful and would save you alot of time.
I believe with the focus being on community and social interaction they want players to talk and figure out the best ways to do things by trial and error, learn weaknesses and strengths by trial and error and promote community engagement in finding those strategies.
This way if you have a reputation as a good pvp assassin people will seek you out to learn from you rather then have hard facts about what's good against what. make it more about in-game learning then reading guides with hard facts
Still, there seems a bit more openly reachable content in this game from what I have seen so far, and in the end maybe even more "public" bosses. Those would be possible to tackle with a smaller guild and a few pickups. That would add more variety for sure and then that "sieving" of people by "show me your last parse" will happen and put people off.
There absolutely will be some such content, but it is not too much to expect that if the game were to have combat trackers, and content designed around both raids that have combat trackers and raids that do not, the content designed in a way and physical location where it would be expected that pick up raids - or raids that are a single guild with a few add ons - could take the content on are all designed as content that doesn't need a tracker.
Ok, granted. A very good tracker that takes into account when aggro was pulled by an off-tank or a plate healer (as in EQ2) to save a stupid dps monkey from being squished by trash. But having such a thing in game is not a mean feat.
If that worked, I would agree that it would be tremendously useful, even for smaller guilds and non-raid content (like harder dungeons). And before you say it, I know the rules. DPS who finds aggro can keep it.
The hybrid thing is debatable. My EQ2 Inq back in the day was tough enough to tank trash for a short while while I did my job too. Especially in EQ2, you could pull a hybrid raid member off, except in the real hard raids where every bit counted. But we digress.
I don't see the point in a half featured combat tracker. This is why I refuse to ttalk about "DPS meters".
I should also point out, I think, that in regards to combat trackers I am only really saying they are needed in combat for encounters that could be considered marquee encounters for a given content cycle.
In terms of early(ish) EQ2, that would be Venekor from SotL, Dijinn Master, maybe Barakah and Siyamak in PoS, Tarinax, Chel'Drak, Wuoshi, VLMM, Trakanon (arguably Nexona and Druushk as well), Byzola, Anushti Sul, Ykesha, Rhoen Theer (four rune version), and maybe a few of the avatars (different ones for different expansions).
These are the types of encounters where an in combat tracker is actually needed. Without one, these kinds of encounters simply can't exist.
All other raid mobs during this time (the above encounters are from a 6 - 7 year period in EQ2 for those reading that didn't play the game) are perfectly able to be taken on without a combat tracker - and would be suitable in terms of the idea that Steven has in regards to trial and error in encounters. These types of encounters are not really what I am talking about in this thread - it is just the marquee encounters.
My biggest fear with Ashes is that if the game is designed without a combat tracker at all (or if the encounters are designed without the knowledge that players will have one), then encounters like the ones in the list above simply will not and can not happen.
The reason, I never joined a guild with my raid tier characters on AB and Nagafen was exactly that reason. After having been told a few times that the numbers and gear are more important than my brains as an Inq and Warlock, I usually only helped out some pals in some guilds. Maybe I just asked the wrong guilds.
To be fair, other than for a few months onAB, neither of those servers was overly well known for their raiding. AB raiding was actually a bit of a meme at the time on other servers (no offense).
If that is the case in the majority of cases, I would not even care if someone could inspect me and see my last 10 combat parses. Alas, I think it is no longer that way.
I still believe that it is the games design that determines this kind of thing more than anything.
The easier you make it for people to treat others like shit, the more they will do it. You can't ever completely eliminate it, because there are some outright horrid people out there. However, you can make a game where there is no incentive to treat people like this, and even make one where there is an incentive to not treat people in such a way.
But to be back on topic: A true combat tracker with meaningful statistics that also helps with non-raid content: Sure. Pure DPS Meter = bad imho.
A lot of people who complain about DPS meters/combat trackers cause toxicity are typically the casual players that are interacting with other casual players. In particular, a vast portion of it comes from more casual guilds/players trying to mimic what they think hardcore guilds/players are like.Toxicity of this sort is usually quite rare in the actual hardcore guilds for the simple reason that people who specifically want to get into more hardcore aspects of an MMO already know and agree with increased skill requirements. If someone wants to break into the hardcore raiding scene, and doesn't quite make the cut for DPS or some such metric, but is willing to learn and improve, most guilds will gladly help out.
This is basically the point I have been trying to get across for a year or so now, but is written better than I have been able to do in that time.
That's exactly the problem though. It benefits a tiny minority of players, while breeding toxicity and resentment in the rest of them. Ultimately hardcore raid guilds will be fine, they're dedicated enough to either push through the limitations, find no limitations to need overcoming, or move on to a different game. If however the rest of the playerbase is now glued to meters, the well is poisoned. Casual players can't deal with the power that these tools provide, and explaining not to use it won't help. Players will use it, misuse it, rely on it, and blame anything but themselves for not having any fun.
The other point I have been trying to get across is basically this.
It is these two points (top end players will use the tool iwhtout issue, casual players will use the tool with issue) that was the spark of the idea to make it a guild perk, but offered to guilds at a point in time where there are several other guild perks that would be far more attractive to any guild not attempting to run top end content.
In this way, those top end players that know how to use it, that know how to not abuse it, and that all agree to it's use, all have access to it.
Those people that don't know how to use it properly, won't.
While the idea of it being a guild perk is not perfect, it is - as far as I can see - by far the best option of all possibilities.
The issue with the current status quo is that combat trackers will exist, and since they will be third party, they will be available to literally anyone that wants to use one.
While Intrepid may attempt to prevent their use, they will end up going the same route as GW2 did when they realize that 25%+ of their players use a combat tracker. At this point, we will be in the same situation as literally every other MMO on the market (otehr than WoW) in terms of combat tracker.
Essentially, the idea of building it in to the games client and then making it a guild perk is the option that will see the least amount of combat tracker use in the game over all. It is also the only way people in pick up groups can ever be reasonably sure there is no one parsing the fights in the group.
As such, it is by far the best option for people that are against combat trackers and their use, and the only people that are against combat trackers and against this idea are people that have simply not thought things through (or in the case of Steven, people that don't realize the skillset of the people that are working on trackers right now).
The people that this suggestion most negatively impacts on are the people that want to use trackers, not the people that don't want to use them.
Ultimately, DPS meters aren't even a good evaluator of someone's performance. Even the highest DPS person in your group can fail or die and even wipe an entire group.
And if they died, then the tracker would tell that they died, or literally anyone could see that they died. You'd have to be braindead to kick someone for low dps if they died halfway through the fight. Now if they keep on dying consistently and won't listen to advice? Then yeah, kick them.
I did say that trial and error was the best way to test out dps but it is not about the dps per say it is more about knowing what the different builds and options strenghs and weakenesses are. This is especially true in PvP but also pertainent in PvE. Looks like I am contradicting my self but main point is that even though live runs and trail and error are the best way to find out your class capabilities, the number of options in this game are so great that it makes a dps meter/combat tracker very useful and would save you alot of time.
I believe with the focus being on community and social interaction they want players to talk and figure out the best ways to do things by trial and error, learn weaknesses and strengths by trial and error and promote community engagement in finding those strategies.
This way if you have a reputation as a good pvp assassin people will seek you out to learn from you rather then have hard facts about what's good against what. make it more about in-game learning then reading guides with hard facts
The thing is, how do you trial and error 40 man content without meters? You have no idea if you personally are doing any better or any worse. Let's say you wipe 30 times on a boss, so you decide to switch your gear and maybe some skill points or you change your secondary archetype. Then you kill the boss on your 31st attempt.
Do you say that your new build/gear setup is inherently better than before because you found out through "trial and error"? No, because you could have been actually doing way worse without even knowing and all the 39 other players just played better and didn't die. It has nothing to do with you, so how do you determine your own individual skill level without a combat tracker? From how Steven talks about the game and from what we've seen so far, there is not going to be any difficult solo encounter where you could actually time yourself and figure out your dps over a 3-5 minute encounter. The entire game is balanced around group combat, so what can you do to set yourself apart as an individual and increase your own strength? You don't know, because you don't have the numbers to see for yourself.
Even if you stared at the numbers popping up from your abilities during a fight, you could see your numbers going up on screen, but you could actually be doing less damage overall because your build is slower or the spells interact differently. Then you end up doing less DPS overall, but you think you're doing better.
1. To my knowledge Steven has already explicitly stated they are not implementing dps trackers. If thats incorrect provide the statement showing otherwise and I'll revise my stance on that information since addons are also not being allowed in AoC.
2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content
3. DPS meters are not a game ranking system.
This isn't a debate.
First of all, this is a debate.
If you don't agree with me, then we can debate that, as well.
As to your points;
1, He has said that, the question here isn't "what has Steven said", but rather "this is why what Steven has said is blatantly wrong, even though it is his game".
2, History doesn't show that, only WoW shows that. If you ignore other games then you can make this claim, but that is cherry picking data.
That said, the suggesion being made in this thread does not allow for tracking to be done without consent at all.
Ever.
The consent is in the form of joining a specific guild, but in this case, the type of guild that would have access to a combat tracker would only appeal to players that would want to use a combat tracker, and would likely only accept the same. Players that group with people from guilds with a combat tracker are still not concenting to having a combat tracker used on them, and as such, it can not be used on them.
The only way to have this level of control over a combat tracker is to have it in game. having third party combat trackers (which will happen in the absence of first party trackers) will mean that players will be able to use them on whom ever they group with.
3, they are not, indeed. They are a tool to tell you very many different things - and none of the things it can tell you are able to individually tell you how well a player did over all. All of the things together can tell you that, but if you wanted to accurately rank people using the data from this tool, it would take hours to work out.
As such, people that understand the tool don't use it to rank players - even if people that don't understand it do.
It is FACT they are instanced measurments of a pve encounter gauging damage and percentages of each encounter specifically. Thats literally the function of what happens with a meter...
This is not the part of your original description that I take issue with, I take issue with the part where you said
to create standards of dps to exclude others regardless of everything else and have a forced measuring with or without player consent
When you say that, you are no longer talking about inherent aspects of combat trackers.
You may well be talking about experiences you have seen or had with other players in regards to combat trackers, but the above aspects of that experience are a result of the players involved, not the combat tracker.
They are straight up not inherent to combat trackers, and therefore do not belong in a description of what they are, and I will *always* call that out when I see it.
The issue with a personal combat tracker that you can opt to share is that since it is a thing that is possible, players will assume that the share function exists in order to see how good players are before grouping with them. Players will make sharing combat tracker data a requirement of joining any and all pick up groups, making the fact that it is "personal" irrelevent.
This will increase toxicity, not decrease it.
If a combat tracker exists, it needs to have hard borders as to who can and who can not see that data. To me, this should be guild based. I am fine with (and suggested about a year ago) there also being training dummies for people not in guilds with trackers - but to me, that data should not be able to be shared in game.
Just for the sake of it. I will throw in my 2 cents opinion.
I love DPS meters cause I strive to be good at my role. But I would prefer NO DPS meter, I have several reason(s)for this.
As ex guild/raid leader in WoW I was often whispered by raid members "Replace this hunter/replace the healer they s*ck". This often led to either the people being replaced being upset/angry or the people that know there is a guy that is underperforming and is not being replaced.
When in a dungeon party with random players it is very easy to kick a certain player and find a replacement if they notice you underperform, which will bring toxicity no matter how you look at it.
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
You may not like this, but that is all a result of poor leadership.
You can't blame the combat tracker. Not even a little bit.
If someone in my raid said "replace this person" for any reason, I would have booted the player that said that from the raid, and potentially from the guild. I also would have made it known to the guild why that player was booted, and that I will not stand for that kind of behavior at all.
If you think someone is underperforming, you help them, not whisper about them behind their back. That is what a guild is all about - at least a guild with good leadership.
Fortunately, I never had that issue, because all of my guild members know that I won't stand for that kind of thing.
Also, if someones performance during raids was an issue, I would have made sure to attend to that at the earliest possible moment.
I don't need a game to tell me shit about DPS, If i want to know my best rotation i'll go out in the world, find a mob, use a stopwatch along with google spreadsheet.
I want to work it out for myself, I don't need some casual DPS display.
I don't need a game to tell me shit about DPS, If i want to know my best rotation i'll go out in the world, find a mob, use a stopwatch along with google spreadsheet.
I want to work it out for myself, I don't need some casual DPS display.
Mobs that die in 30 seconds and have shit resistances with 0 mechanics are not indicative of what you would use in a raid environment. Rotations are drastically different between burst damage in the open world and a long raid encounter.
I was briefly talking about DPS meters with my guild and I didn't realize how much of a debate it actually was. I also didn't realize people would be worried about things like consent to be tracked, it seems so foreign of a concept that I wouldn't even have thought of it.
I don't plan very many MMOs, but of the ones I do play, I play them as hardcore as I can invest my time and sanity into. Much like any eSport I play or skill I'm learning. A DPS tracker sounds like a wonderful tool for measure of improvement among DPS, healing among Clerics, and various other archetypes in their roles. It's even better if you're measured up to established norms or a par score. I can understand what it feels like to be placed into the bottom percentiles because I've been there. I've come into games years after released and have been completely blindsided by the skill curve. Placing bronze, not knowing what the meta is, lack of understanding of general concepts like skill rotations, DOT uptime, combos, or whatever else the current playerbase would take for granted. All kinds of fancy stuff I had to learn and practice.
A DPS meter sounds amazing to me because it can be used as a direct measure of improvement with specific gear and player level taken into account. I can understand how this can make some feel alienated or excluded due to DPS requirements in certain raids, guilds, and even party recruitment, but I always feel there's a way to break through the glass ceiling. If you personally don't have the time or energy to improve upon your statistics due to personal life arrangements, that's completely understandable. Relax and enjoy the game however you like. However, I don't think you should give the finger to hard performance numbers as if it's some kind of attack against you as a person. People are sorted into performance categories based on how they perform, not who they are. Even little league baseball has performance stats. I'd like to see my performance so that I have a clear basis on how much I need to improve. If someone was coming to me for help improving, I'd like to see their stats too, among many other tidbits of information.
Do I feel like a DPS meter is relevant with a game being so new? Probably not. Server First attempts are mostly going to be about class knowledge and content mechanics, barring any straight up gear and level checks. Once things are figured out and content is starting to be completed regularly, statistical minimums will be established and stat tracking starts to become relevant. I'd say a lot of DPS requirements in raids or parties may even come from the want to complete content quickly and efficiently. If however the DPS minimum is also near a player's possible maximum, that's very difficult content, and players need to be aware of that fact. Asking that you meet a certain statistical minimum is not an act of exclusion or toxicity, it's a necessity for content completion.
I have the luxury of thick skin when it comes to toxicity and chat PvP so maybe I'm not as sensitive to the issue as other people are. It just feels like a measurable way to improve to me, and a good reason to improve as well.
Historically, I have been extremely competitive in tank/dps/healing scenarios. I've used meters extensively to always shoot for #1 spot.
These days I keep look back to the earlier days when there were no group finders and mods weren't as popular as they are now. I remember the LFG days in /general where as a tank I had pretty much guaranteed spot anywhere I wanted to go. I would always let pretty much anyone come. I didn't care about their gear or stats and I didn't pay much attention to add-ons at all.
What happen? We failed and we succeeded. When we succeeded I would add the members of the group who did well and make a note of why i added them. In the future when I formed a group i would look for them on my list. For the groups that failed I made a visual inspection of gear and stats like HP, mana, stam and compared that with the persons game play. Maybe they didn't do well, but did well for what they had to work with. These people I would also add with the same type of note to see how they matured.
My opinion would be to leave add-ons out of the game entirely. The spoiling of content and mechanics will be done through videos and websites and social media all on it's own. There is no need to expedite the process by building it into the game.
I would add that although I have been very competitive in the past I have always been happy to have people in the group that were not so driven, or maybe just didn't have the time to put in to reach that level. In fact, it added an additional load on my shoulders, making my job more intense, which I liked. For obvious reasons the number of people you bring into a raid environment like that has to be limited and reasonable but I never had a problem doing it.
This is one thing I liked about New World. It brought people in from all walks of life and everyone navigated their way through finding their strong points and focused in that direction. That was so much more enjoyable than playing with a bunch of a stuck up elitists that sit in front of a dummy all day crunching numbers.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
1. To my knowledge Steven has already explicitly stated they are not implementing dps trackers. If thats incorrect provide the statement showing otherwise and I'll revise my stance on that information since addons are also not being allowed in AoC.
2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content
3. DPS meters are not a game ranking system.
This isn't a debate.
The issue with a personal combat tracker that you can opt to share is that since it is a thing that is possible, players will assume that the share function exists in order to see how good players are before grouping with them. Players will make sharing combat tracker data a requirement of joining any and all pick up groups, making the fact that it is "personal" irrelevent.
This will increase toxicity, not decrease it.
If a combat tracker exists, it needs to have hard borders as to who can and who can not see that data. To me, this should be guild based. I am fine with (and suggested about a year ago) there also being training dummies for people not in guilds with trackers - but to me, that data should not be able to be shared in game.
So long as you support non consensual tracking on an individual basis theres really nothing more I have to speak with you on this.
If there is No 100% player choice in a *possible* tracking tool guild or no guild. Then I am full stop 100% against you in any implementation of it and I will support Stevens hard stance against one at all.
There is no reason to want a forced un-consensual meter, other than to have power and control over players indirectly. This is where the environment becomes ripe for abuse and misuse.
I do not mind target dummies and personal
and private meters. I dont care if they are in a guild or not, their damage their choice to share.
Just make a private testing ground (looking at player housing) and give us a dps meter on target dummies for optimizing our builds. There is no need for public shaming meters. I totally understand.
I like FF14's Stone, Sky, Sea training dummy. It gives an idea of how much damage you're capable of doing over the course of three minutes using dummies with health pools that vary both by class and by enemy. If you can kill the dummy in three minutes, you're probably okay in terms of DPS, so your only barrier to clearing the associated raid is your knowledge of mechanics and how well you work with your party. No ever-present meter needed, no metrics public or non-consentual, and there's always a clear goal for raw power.
Having something similar in AoC would provide players who cared to test their builds, rotations, buffs, and gear a metric for doing so without infringing on other players. Guilds and raid leaders who want the ability to gate can request proof of beating the dummy as the bare minimum, meaning providing that information is voluntary. Once you're in a raid setting, there's no need to rely on numbers to determine who is or isn't pulling their weight, because everyone has already been vetted as capable of significant DPS. You can focus on chemistry and knowledge of the mechanics instead, which are arguably more important.
1. To my knowledge Steven has already explicitly stated they are not implementing dps trackers. If thats incorrect provide the statement showing otherwise and I'll revise my stance on that information since addons are also not being allowed in AoC.
2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content
3. DPS meters are not a game ranking system.
This isn't a debate.
The issue with a personal combat tracker that you can opt to share is that since it is a thing that is possible, players will assume that the share function exists in order to see how good players are before grouping with them. Players will make sharing combat tracker data a requirement of joining any and all pick up groups, making the fact that it is "personal" irrelevent.
This will increase toxicity, not decrease it.
If a combat tracker exists, it needs to have hard borders as to who can and who can not see that data. To me, this should be guild based. I am fine with (and suggested about a year ago) there also being training dummies for people not in guilds with trackers - but to me, that data should not be able to be shared in game.
So long as you support non consensual tracking on an individual basis theres really nothing more I have to speak with you on this.
If there is No 100% player choice in a *possible* tracking tool guild or no guild. Then I am full stop 100% against you in any implementation of it and I will support Stevens hard stance against one at all.
Are you joking? How is it non consensual if you are consenting to join and be apart of that guild?
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
1. To my knowledge Steven has already explicitly stated they are not implementing dps trackers. If thats incorrect provide the statement showing otherwise and I'll revise my stance on that information since addons are also not being allowed in AoC.
2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content
3. DPS meters are not a game ranking system.
This isn't a debate.
The issue with a personal combat tracker that you can opt to share is that since it is a thing that is possible, players will assume that the share function exists in order to see how good players are before grouping with them. Players will make sharing combat tracker data a requirement of joining any and all pick up groups, making the fact that it is "personal" irrelevent.
This will increase toxicity, not decrease it.
If a combat tracker exists, it needs to have hard borders as to who can and who can not see that data. To me, this should be guild based. I am fine with (and suggested about a year ago) there also being training dummies for people not in guilds with trackers - but to me, that data should not be able to be shared in game.
So long as you support non consensual tracking on an individual basis theres really nothing more I have to speak with you on this.
If there is No 100% player choice in a *possible* tracking tool guild or no guild. Then I am full stop 100% against you in any implementation of it and I will support Stevens hard stance against one at all.
Are you joking? How is it non consensual if you are consenting to join and be apart of that guild?
Joining a guild is one thing. Having them turn stuff on and off of you is another matter entirely.
Lets say I join X guild and he promises to do casual content even though my max X amount of dps is this or that. He turns it on anyway to be nosy posts it around and flaunts it regardless of my choice.
Unless the feature is personal and consensual I am 100% stop on any form of a meter.
Thats it, nothing more. If you're against consensual meters or private meters, then you're against player choice and I will have no middle ground with you on this topic.
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
And I'm fine with that. I just dont believe in forced meters for a solution.
Target dummies that give a dps measurement that people may share in order to push those bosses and encounters would be my prefered method. I'm aware that a target dummy doesnt show everything on in a raid, and I like that. It incentivizes players and groups to communicate and work on roles and positioning as the focal point while the dps threshold is a ballpark estimate without over focusing on it.
1. To my knowledge Steven has already explicitly stated they are not implementing dps trackers. If thats incorrect provide the statement showing otherwise and I'll revise my stance on that information since addons are also not being allowed in AoC.
2. History shows that once ingame measured of trackers are implemented and are used without player consent the pve community becomes a toxic wasteland of centimeter measuring and blatant elitism. Steven himself has already said and explained the same thing. Arguing semantics over what is known and experienced is not an argument its just you being angry that people point out what inevitably happens when you make it easy for elitism to thrive, it stalls out the community from new players because self absorbed groups take meters as the holy grail only acceptable way to do content
3. DPS meters are not a game ranking system.
This isn't a debate.
The issue with a personal combat tracker that you can opt to share is that since it is a thing that is possible, players will assume that the share function exists in order to see how good players are before grouping with them. Players will make sharing combat tracker data a requirement of joining any and all pick up groups, making the fact that it is "personal" irrelevent.
This will increase toxicity, not decrease it.
If a combat tracker exists, it needs to have hard borders as to who can and who can not see that data. To me, this should be guild based. I am fine with (and suggested about a year ago) there also being training dummies for people not in guilds with trackers - but to me, that data should not be able to be shared in game.
So long as you support non consensual tracking on an individual basis theres really nothing more I have to speak with you on this.
If there is No 100% player choice in a *possible* tracking tool guild or no guild. Then I am full stop 100% against you in any implementation of it and I will support Stevens hard stance against one at all.
Are you joking? How is it non consensual if you are consenting to join and be apart of that guild?
Joining a guild is one thing. Having them turn stuff on and off of you is another matter entirely.
Lets say I join X guild and he promises to do casual content even though my max X amount of dps is this or that. He turns it on anyway to be nosy posts it around and flaunts it regardless of my choice.
Unless the feature is personal and consensual I am 100% stop on any form of a meter.
Thats it, nothing more. If you're against consensual meters or private meters, then you're against player choice and I will have no middle ground with you on this topic.
It could be something guildies have to vote for, it could be something that can't be turned on/off without expending a bunch of resources, it could announce in guild that someone is attempting to turn it on, etc.
There are many ways around it, and many ways for you to just simply quit the guild and find one better suited to you.
And like I've said in previous posts, without an in game way to track combat, there will be 3rd party ways, and then you'll have guild leaders doing what you are worried about except with no way to prove it's them or someone else in the guild, without any way to stop it, without any knowledge that it's happening, etc. If it's a guild perk, you'd be able to tell before you even stepped into raid if it was on or not.
I tend to play with friends/family who are generally PvE/RPers and play MMO's just for fun and are very intimidated when they want to join WoW dungeons due to people asking for "Looking for 12k DPS to kill X boss"... This scares off players to even try and join content.
Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
forced
You keep using this word and I don't think you know what it means
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Exactly. This is what I mean when the pve community gets stagnant and stalls itself out. It just chases away new players.
Whereas people saying "looking for dps,tank, healer" is a lot more open and inviting and promotes a bit more social interactions and you would think in a MMO that would be more important. The knowing mechanics, group composition, and communication will always be more important and I missed the older days when these parts were where the most focus was at and communities thrived on teaching and reaching out to newer/ less experienced players by needing to fill roles rather than filling arbitrary number percentages when people will over dps anyways
E.g. If PvE is trivial and my DPS doesn't matter much, then I don't think DPS meters are required at all.
If PvE encounters end up being more difficult and complex ala WoW, then thats where DPS meters come in handy. Another factor is class balance, i.e. some DPS classes will have to work harder than others based off balance. Hopefully Intrepid can balance class damage output well, but we'll see.
The only way I can think of incentivising players to perform their best, without a DPS meter is to tie loot to performance on a boss. You could break loot rewards into tiers:
Bronze - 100,000 Dmg done,
Silver - 250,000 Dmg done,
Gold - 400,000 Dmg done in a fight.
I wouldn't be against a generalised meter that had categories like the expected dps needed for a top tier boss is mythic, then the next tier down is legendary and so on. this makes it so you can show who's carrying wieght and gets around elitism.
So toon is going to have a full plate of options but no combat tracker to analyze them. So kind of makes builds more vague and in my opinion deters from their value if you do not know what their contribution is in terms of numbers.
I did say that trial and error was the best way to test out dps but it is not about the dps per say it is more about knowing what the different builds and options strenghs and weakenesses are. This is especially true in PvP but also pertainent in PvE. Looks like I am contradicting my self but main point is that even though live runs and trail and error are the best way to find out your class capabilities, the number of options in this game are so great that it makes a dps meter/combat tracker very useful and would save you alot of time.
I believe with the focus being on community and social interaction they want players to talk and figure out the best ways to do things by trial and error, learn weaknesses and strengths by trial and error and promote community engagement in finding those strategies.
This way if you have a reputation as a good pvp assassin people will seek you out to learn from you rather then have hard facts about what's good against what. make it more about in-game learning then reading guides with hard facts
If you are doing something wrong you will know AFTER the fight not DURING.
If this will be a high risk/high reward game statistics must be show after the fact!
I should also point out, I think, that in regards to combat trackers I am only really saying they are needed in combat for encounters that could be considered marquee encounters for a given content cycle.
In terms of early(ish) EQ2, that would be Venekor from SotL, Dijinn Master, maybe Barakah and Siyamak in PoS, Tarinax, Chel'Drak, Wuoshi, VLMM, Trakanon (arguably Nexona and Druushk as well), Byzola, Anushti Sul, Ykesha, Rhoen Theer (four rune version), and maybe a few of the avatars (different ones for different expansions).
These are the types of encounters where an in combat tracker is actually needed. Without one, these kinds of encounters simply can't exist.
All other raid mobs during this time (the above encounters are from a 6 - 7 year period in EQ2 for those reading that didn't play the game) are perfectly able to be taken on without a combat tracker - and would be suitable in terms of the idea that Steven has in regards to trial and error in encounters. These types of encounters are not really what I am talking about in this thread - it is just the marquee encounters.
My biggest fear with Ashes is that if the game is designed without a combat tracker at all (or if the encounters are designed without the knowledge that players will have one), then encounters like the ones in the list above simply will not and can not happen. To be fair, other than for a few months onAB, neither of those servers was overly well known for their raiding. AB raiding was actually a bit of a meme at the time on other servers (no offense). I still believe that it is the games design that determines this kind of thing more than anything.
The easier you make it for people to treat others like shit, the more they will do it. You can't ever completely eliminate it, because there are some outright horrid people out there. However, you can make a game where there is no incentive to treat people like this, and even make one where there is an incentive to not treat people in such a way. Agreed.
The other point I have been trying to get across is basically this.
It is these two points (top end players will use the tool iwhtout issue, casual players will use the tool with issue) that was the spark of the idea to make it a guild perk, but offered to guilds at a point in time where there are several other guild perks that would be far more attractive to any guild not attempting to run top end content.
In this way, those top end players that know how to use it, that know how to not abuse it, and that all agree to it's use, all have access to it.
Those people that don't know how to use it properly, won't.
While the idea of it being a guild perk is not perfect, it is - as far as I can see - by far the best option of all possibilities.
The issue with the current status quo is that combat trackers will exist, and since they will be third party, they will be available to literally anyone that wants to use one.
While Intrepid may attempt to prevent their use, they will end up going the same route as GW2 did when they realize that 25%+ of their players use a combat tracker. At this point, we will be in the same situation as literally every other MMO on the market (otehr than WoW) in terms of combat tracker.
Essentially, the idea of building it in to the games client and then making it a guild perk is the option that will see the least amount of combat tracker use in the game over all. It is also the only way people in pick up groups can ever be reasonably sure there is no one parsing the fights in the group.
As such, it is by far the best option for people that are against combat trackers and their use, and the only people that are against combat trackers and against this idea are people that have simply not thought things through (or in the case of Steven, people that don't realize the skillset of the people that are working on trackers right now).
The people that this suggestion most negatively impacts on are the people that want to use trackers, not the people that don't want to use them.
The thing is, how do you trial and error 40 man content without meters? You have no idea if you personally are doing any better or any worse. Let's say you wipe 30 times on a boss, so you decide to switch your gear and maybe some skill points or you change your secondary archetype. Then you kill the boss on your 31st attempt.
Do you say that your new build/gear setup is inherently better than before because you found out through "trial and error"? No, because you could have been actually doing way worse without even knowing and all the 39 other players just played better and didn't die. It has nothing to do with you, so how do you determine your own individual skill level without a combat tracker? From how Steven talks about the game and from what we've seen so far, there is not going to be any difficult solo encounter where you could actually time yourself and figure out your dps over a 3-5 minute encounter. The entire game is balanced around group combat, so what can you do to set yourself apart as an individual and increase your own strength? You don't know, because you don't have the numbers to see for yourself.
Even if you stared at the numbers popping up from your abilities during a fight, you could see your numbers going up on screen, but you could actually be doing less damage overall because your build is slower or the spells interact differently. Then you end up doing less DPS overall, but you think you're doing better.
If you don't agree with me, then we can debate that, as well.
As to your points;
1, He has said that, the question here isn't "what has Steven said", but rather "this is why what Steven has said is blatantly wrong, even though it is his game".
2, History doesn't show that, only WoW shows that. If you ignore other games then you can make this claim, but that is cherry picking data.
That said, the suggesion being made in this thread does not allow for tracking to be done without consent at all.
Ever.
The consent is in the form of joining a specific guild, but in this case, the type of guild that would have access to a combat tracker would only appeal to players that would want to use a combat tracker, and would likely only accept the same. Players that group with people from guilds with a combat tracker are still not concenting to having a combat tracker used on them, and as such, it can not be used on them.
The only way to have this level of control over a combat tracker is to have it in game. having third party combat trackers (which will happen in the absence of first party trackers) will mean that players will be able to use them on whom ever they group with.
3, they are not, indeed. They are a tool to tell you very many different things - and none of the things it can tell you are able to individually tell you how well a player did over all. All of the things together can tell you that, but if you wanted to accurately rank people using the data from this tool, it would take hours to work out.
As such, people that understand the tool don't use it to rank players - even if people that don't understand it do. This is not the part of your original description that I take issue with, I take issue with the part where you said When you say that, you are no longer talking about inherent aspects of combat trackers.
You may well be talking about experiences you have seen or had with other players in regards to combat trackers, but the above aspects of that experience are a result of the players involved, not the combat tracker.
They are straight up not inherent to combat trackers, and therefore do not belong in a description of what they are, and I will *always* call that out when I see it.
The issue with a personal combat tracker that you can opt to share is that since it is a thing that is possible, players will assume that the share function exists in order to see how good players are before grouping with them. Players will make sharing combat tracker data a requirement of joining any and all pick up groups, making the fact that it is "personal" irrelevent.
This will increase toxicity, not decrease it.
If a combat tracker exists, it needs to have hard borders as to who can and who can not see that data. To me, this should be guild based. I am fine with (and suggested about a year ago) there also being training dummies for people not in guilds with trackers - but to me, that data should not be able to be shared in game.
You can't blame the combat tracker. Not even a little bit.
If someone in my raid said "replace this person" for any reason, I would have booted the player that said that from the raid, and potentially from the guild. I also would have made it known to the guild why that player was booted, and that I will not stand for that kind of behavior at all.
If you think someone is underperforming, you help them, not whisper about them behind their back. That is what a guild is all about - at least a guild with good leadership.
Fortunately, I never had that issue, because all of my guild members know that I won't stand for that kind of thing.
Also, if someones performance during raids was an issue, I would have made sure to attend to that at the earliest possible moment.
I want to work it out for myself, I don't need some casual DPS display.
Mobs that die in 30 seconds and have shit resistances with 0 mechanics are not indicative of what you would use in a raid environment. Rotations are drastically different between burst damage in the open world and a long raid encounter.
I don't plan very many MMOs, but of the ones I do play, I play them as hardcore as I can invest my time and sanity into. Much like any eSport I play or skill I'm learning. A DPS tracker sounds like a wonderful tool for measure of improvement among DPS, healing among Clerics, and various other archetypes in their roles. It's even better if you're measured up to established norms or a par score. I can understand what it feels like to be placed into the bottom percentiles because I've been there. I've come into games years after released and have been completely blindsided by the skill curve. Placing bronze, not knowing what the meta is, lack of understanding of general concepts like skill rotations, DOT uptime, combos, or whatever else the current playerbase would take for granted. All kinds of fancy stuff I had to learn and practice.
A DPS meter sounds amazing to me because it can be used as a direct measure of improvement with specific gear and player level taken into account. I can understand how this can make some feel alienated or excluded due to DPS requirements in certain raids, guilds, and even party recruitment, but I always feel there's a way to break through the glass ceiling. If you personally don't have the time or energy to improve upon your statistics due to personal life arrangements, that's completely understandable. Relax and enjoy the game however you like. However, I don't think you should give the finger to hard performance numbers as if it's some kind of attack against you as a person. People are sorted into performance categories based on how they perform, not who they are. Even little league baseball has performance stats. I'd like to see my performance so that I have a clear basis on how much I need to improve. If someone was coming to me for help improving, I'd like to see their stats too, among many other tidbits of information.
Do I feel like a DPS meter is relevant with a game being so new? Probably not. Server First attempts are mostly going to be about class knowledge and content mechanics, barring any straight up gear and level checks. Once things are figured out and content is starting to be completed regularly, statistical minimums will be established and stat tracking starts to become relevant. I'd say a lot of DPS requirements in raids or parties may even come from the want to complete content quickly and efficiently. If however the DPS minimum is also near a player's possible maximum, that's very difficult content, and players need to be aware of that fact. Asking that you meet a certain statistical minimum is not an act of exclusion or toxicity, it's a necessity for content completion.
I have the luxury of thick skin when it comes to toxicity and chat PvP so maybe I'm not as sensitive to the issue as other people are. It just feels like a measurable way to improve to me, and a good reason to improve as well.
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These days I keep look back to the earlier days when there were no group finders and mods weren't as popular as they are now. I remember the LFG days in /general where as a tank I had pretty much guaranteed spot anywhere I wanted to go. I would always let pretty much anyone come. I didn't care about their gear or stats and I didn't pay much attention to add-ons at all.
What happen? We failed and we succeeded. When we succeeded I would add the members of the group who did well and make a note of why i added them. In the future when I formed a group i would look for them on my list. For the groups that failed I made a visual inspection of gear and stats like HP, mana, stam and compared that with the persons game play. Maybe they didn't do well, but did well for what they had to work with. These people I would also add with the same type of note to see how they matured.
My opinion would be to leave add-ons out of the game entirely. The spoiling of content and mechanics will be done through videos and websites and social media all on it's own. There is no need to expedite the process by building it into the game.
I would add that although I have been very competitive in the past I have always been happy to have people in the group that were not so driven, or maybe just didn't have the time to put in to reach that level. In fact, it added an additional load on my shoulders, making my job more intense, which I liked. For obvious reasons the number of people you bring into a raid environment like that has to be limited and reasonable but I never had a problem doing it.
This is one thing I liked about New World. It brought people in from all walks of life and everyone navigated their way through finding their strong points and focused in that direction. That was so much more enjoyable than playing with a bunch of a stuck up elitists that sit in front of a dummy all day crunching numbers.
So long as you support non consensual tracking on an individual basis theres really nothing more I have to speak with you on this.
If there is No 100% player choice in a *possible* tracking tool guild or no guild. Then I am full stop 100% against you in any implementation of it and I will support Stevens hard stance against one at all.
There is no reason to want a forced un-consensual meter, other than to have power and control over players indirectly. This is where the environment becomes ripe for abuse and misuse.
I do not mind target dummies and personal
and private meters. I dont care if they are in a guild or not, their damage their choice to share.
Thanks
Having something similar in AoC would provide players who cared to test their builds, rotations, buffs, and gear a metric for doing so without infringing on other players. Guilds and raid leaders who want the ability to gate can request proof of beating the dummy as the bare minimum, meaning providing that information is voluntary. Once you're in a raid setting, there's no need to rely on numbers to determine who is or isn't pulling their weight, because everyone has already been vetted as capable of significant DPS. You can focus on chemistry and knowledge of the mechanics instead, which are arguably more important.
Are you joking? How is it non consensual if you are consenting to join and be apart of that guild?
Joining a guild is one thing. Having them turn stuff on and off of you is another matter entirely.
Lets say I join X guild and he promises to do casual content even though my max X amount of dps is this or that. He turns it on anyway to be nosy posts it around and flaunts it regardless of my choice.
Unless the feature is personal and consensual I am 100% stop on any form of a meter.
Thats it, nothing more. If you're against consensual meters or private meters, then you're against player choice and I will have no middle ground with you on this topic.
If bosses have dps checks/enrage timers or are otherwise more difficult because of dps requirements, you are going to have groups/guilds seeking good players and tossing worse players regardless of whether you have a dps meter or not. I don't care if they do it or not, but in a game where things like looting rights are determined by dps as has been indicated... you better believe people are going to push players one way or another on the dps front. If there are mechanics that set requirements for how much damage or how fast things get killed, they will find a way to assess it with or without a dps meter.
And I'm fine with that. I just dont believe in forced meters for a solution.
Target dummies that give a dps measurement that people may share in order to push those bosses and encounters would be my prefered method. I'm aware that a target dummy doesnt show everything on in a raid, and I like that. It incentivizes players and groups to communicate and work on roles and positioning as the focal point while the dps threshold is a ballpark estimate without over focusing on it.
It could be something guildies have to vote for, it could be something that can't be turned on/off without expending a bunch of resources, it could announce in guild that someone is attempting to turn it on, etc.
There are many ways around it, and many ways for you to just simply quit the guild and find one better suited to you.
And like I've said in previous posts, without an in game way to track combat, there will be 3rd party ways, and then you'll have guild leaders doing what you are worried about except with no way to prove it's them or someone else in the guild, without any way to stop it, without any knowledge that it's happening, etc. If it's a guild perk, you'd be able to tell before you even stepped into raid if it was on or not.
You keep using this word and I don't think you know what it means