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Open world raids

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Comments

  • bigepeenbigepeen Member
    PvE instanced content is linear. Sure, it can be difficult to figure out how to beat it, but once you do, it becomes stale fast due to its linear nature. The boss can't adapt like actual players can. This is why a lot of WoW players only play the game when the next content update comes out, and after they finish playing it, they get bored and wait for the next content update. Activision Blizzard even intentionally does not fix things immediately, and instead even spaces QoL changes out to sustain player engagement numbers. AoC is not trying to emulate this type of gameplay or game design decisions.
  • winner909098winner909098 Member
    bigepeen wrote: »
    PvE instanced content is linear. Sure, it can be difficult to figure out how to beat it, but once you do, it becomes stale fast due to its linear nature. The boss can't adapt like actual players can. This is why a lot of WoW players only play the game when the next content update comes out, and after they finish playing it, they get bored and wait for the next content update. Activision Blizzard even intentionally does not fix things immediately, and instead even spaces QoL changes out to sustain player engagement numbers. AoC is not trying to emulate this type of gameplay or game design decisions.

    exactly!
    giphy.gif

    https://knightsofember.com/forums/members/winner909098.54
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    winner909098 wrote: »
    Tragnar wrote: »
    Azeem wrote: »
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/iskhh7/saying_this_is_not_the_right_game_for_that_is_not/

    go look at this
    but ya get instanced content out of your head because its not going to happen. It's not one of the design pillars and it literally works against all the other systems in place. 20% instanced for more storytelling/narrative parts but the end game content is open world.

    I read it whole and?

    I am not against open world raids I am against easy raids that are facerolled if PvP doesnt happen

    The designs are fresh, exciting and very promising - stop spinning this into something that this thread is not about

    how about you try the PVE before saying its too easy? if you dont like it, then dont play it. we will be having open world fighting, and that is a good thing.

    Easily said, but when you look at any example from any MMO with open world encounters than you will see that the difficulty lies ONLY with the PvP. Otherwise those bosses are free loot boxes in the open world that takes 5-10minutes to open.

    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    bigepeen wrote: »
    PvE instanced content is linear. Sure, it can be difficult to figure out how to beat it, but once you do, it becomes stale fast due to its linear nature. The boss can't adapt like actual players can. This is why a lot of WoW players only play the game when the next content update comes out, and after they finish playing it, they get bored and wait for the next content update. Activision Blizzard even intentionally does not fix things immediately, and instead even spaces QoL changes out to sustain player engagement numbers. AoC is not trying to emulate this type of gameplay or game design decisions.

    That has nothing to do with instancing or anything like that.

    Ashes wants players to create their own raids depending on what they built in their nodes. For the raids to be a representation of what happened in the node. That is cool and dynamic - and it has nothing to do with the topic in this thread.

    All we are talking about is that we don't want the raids being just a braindead zergfest when PvP around it doesn't happen, because that is what happened to any MMO with open world encounters in the history of gaming.

    The only difficult PvE encounters that we have ever seen in games have been instanced.
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • bigepeenbigepeen Member
    Tragnar wrote: »
    That has nothing to do with instancing or anything like that.

    It does. Open world PvE content is not linear. Instanced PvE content is completely linear.

    There are ways to limit zerging through dungeon design, boss design, gating mechanics, etc... I'm looking forward to seeing if AoC can innovate in this area rather than assuming that it is not possible. I don't think that WoW's implementation of PvE is the epitome of PvE content in MMORPGS. That's fine if you think that, but AoC is trying to innovate on the genre whether you like it or not.
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tragnar wrote: »

    And those 3little points basically mean you don't want instanced PvE to give any meaningful rewards so it makes no sense for anyone to do them.

    Ok so you've proved the point that it's not about some really hard PvE experience with no interruption, it's about a safe place to receive rewards? It's not about the reward of the really hard experience that your group won? Maybe the game will give you a title, once you turn in this coin you can't drop/destroy "EPIC MOB SLAYER Version 1.01"

    LOL I knew you guys were all about having a safe place to farm and not about the "experience".

    GG boys.

    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    bigepeen wrote: »
    Tragnar wrote: »
    That has nothing to do with instancing or anything like that.

    It does. Open world PvE content is not linear. Instanced PvE content is completely linear.

    There are ways to limit zerging through dungeon design, boss design, gating mechanics, etc... I'm looking forward to seeing if AoC can innovate in this area rather than assuming that it is not possible. I don't think that WoW's implementation of PvE is the epitome of PvE content in MMORPGS. That's fine if you think that, but AoC is trying to innovate on the genre whether you like it or not.

    Again, I repeat I know that these ways exist and I hope that they are used in a way that keep the PvE content difficult.

    Again, I repeat the only thing I have problem with is the fact that open world bosses are glorified loot boxes with opening cast time being something 5-15minutes with the difficulty being focusing inside PvP interaction and the actual monster fight.

    The problem is that developers have always reduced the difficulty and complexity of fights in the open world, because they wanted to make it harder for players to wipe other raid groups.
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Tragnar wrote: »

    And those 3little points basically mean you don't want instanced PvE to give any meaningful rewards so it makes no sense for anyone to do them.

    Ok so you've proved the point that it's not about some really hard PvE experience with no interruption, it's about a safe place to receive rewards? It's not about the reward of the really hard experience that your group won? Maybe the game will give you a title, once you turn in this coin you can't drop/destroy "EPIC MOB SLAYER Version 1.01"

    LOL I knew you guys were all about having a safe place to farm and not about the "experience".

    GG boys.

    I don't know where you take this. I am here, because this is not supposed to be pure open world PvP game and until Intrepid comes out and says that Ashes is supposed to be pure open world PvP game I will not go anywhere, because I am actually excited about the game systems.

    If you want PvP possible in every action in the world - well then I am sorry, according to the official statements this game is not for you.

    The corruption system is proof for that, because there are ingame systems to punish bloodthirsty gankers. That same goes for raiding. I do not have anything against the raids being open world. The thing I am heavily against is the raids being easy.

    I would rather have a node being devastated for months by a spawned raid that nobody is able to kill than every raid being cleared on the night of the opening/spawn.
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    @Marcet @Noaani @CaptnChuck

    I will concede this point. If it's true that all of you want just some 40 man boss raid for nothing more than the experience of killing an NPC w/out interference from PvP during the "raid" then I will support it IF and ONLY IF you concede the following. 1) There can be zero loot drop or EXP gain for killing the elite mob inside of the instance. 2) After killing the monster each character gets an item that can not be dropped or destroyed preventing summon(s) until you reach the nearest level 3+ node. 3) You can't enter the instance if in combat or corrupt.

    If the three of you want to agree to my points above I'll start fighting for your epic mob instance(one) which they can update to your hearts content)). Otherwise I really think you three need to take a break from the argument because if you can't agree to this then it's simply you want safety fighting while epic loot and exp are available.

    Come on boys if 2/3 of you get behind my points I'll champion this for you, I'll create the thread and defend it with the same veracity you boys do when it comes to Instanced PVE and anti Summon posts. Hell I'll even suggest you should get a PVE champion title.

    Come on boys let us know how it's about the challenge and not the loot or safety from PvP.


    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    @Tyrantor
    Let me tell it like this:

    If the game is all about open world PvP combat with no place to have defenses against PvP ganks during PvE encounter to ensure the majority (not saying it cannot occur) of pulls without PvP interference. Well then I suppose goodbye, thank you for deceiving me into PvP focused game.

    This is the only reason why I have not supported the game yet, the very real possibility that PvP is the be-all end-all
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • MarcetMarcet Member
    edited September 2020
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Come on boys if 2/3 of you get behind my points I'll champion this for you, I'll create the thread and defend it with the same veracity you boys do when it comes to Instanced PVE and anti Summon posts. Hell I'll even suggest you should get a PVE champion title.

    Come on boys let us know how it's about the challenge and not the loot or safety from PvP.


    Leave your house bro, you are going a lil bit crazy. Make some friends and go for a beer or smth. Just a suggestion. "Zen in the martial arts" lol
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Tragnar I'm offering you the PVE experience that keeps getting posted in these forums, you know it's about the challenge without PvP interference. They haven't once said it was about loot or exp. I think we need to start being honest if we're going to discuss this b.s. If loot and exp is required then you and they want a safe place to farm - plain and simple. If you want some PvE challenge and that is it, then agree to my points.

    Just to be clear the game isn't "all about open world pvp" it's a factor within the game. The game is actually about open world freedom. If you think everyone is out to PvP, it seems like an odd stance considering this "instanced" PVE arguement is mostly driven from WoW player(s) - Or other non open world MMOs. This by the arguements made in the threads and discussions all are the dominant MMOs right? The PVP kills MMOs, if this is true there are way less PvPers - which means most PvE should be safe areas right?

    Anyway I degrees the threat and concern related to pvp is what will make open world play exciting. If you haven't experienced it and you can't get behind it- Steven has made it clear you should wait, watch the beta streams, watch the streams when the game goes live and make a decision then.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    edited September 2020
    You don't understand, if something doesn't give any rewards then people will never do them.

    The best example i can give you is crafting in many MMO's - if the profession doesn't provide anything useful then nobody ever does them. The same is going to happen to raids that don't give any loot - nobody will do them.

    Once again you are asking that only PvP should be rewarded
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2020
    I do understand it's why I made my post, it makes the argument about the developers creating challenging PvE content total crap on every level once you get down to it, only about loot and being able to farm it in safety.

    I am only suggesting that those who can mitigate PvP through diplomacy or force should be rewarded. If you can't manage these two elements then open world freedom is not a game for you plain and simple. It has nothing to do directly related to PvP because diplomacy will be available in MOST cases. Keep in mind this isn't a faction based game where you can't talk to the other side. You can message and talk to everyone if you're unable to befriend people in game thats on you. Sure they could backstab you, again this is part of it, it's about the "human" experience in the game world.

    It's a different conversation, come out and say "We want epic loot and no risk from these mean pvpers while we do it"
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    Ok, so you want raids to be a reward for everything except raider skill?

    I don't mind if you need diplomacy and some PvP action on the way or inside the raid. All I mind that these things should not matter at least 80% of the time once the boss is pulled
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    Tragnar wrote: »
    Ok, so you want raids to be a reward for everything except raider skill?

    I don't mind if you need diplomacy and some PvP action on the way or inside the raid. All I mind that these things should not matter at least 80% of the time once the boss is pulled

    But that's not how open world games work. You need people to defend your people on the boss.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    @Marcet @Noaani @CaptnChuck

    Let me understand this, you're all still crying for 40 man instance raids? How come none of you can figure out how this can be accomplished in an open world?

    @Tyrantor

    Except I did. https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/46505/possible-solutions-for-pve-difficulty
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    And that is the definition of PvP-centric game. If Ashes is about what you guys are saying it is. Then there is a giant misconception that this is not PvP-centric game and that should be cleared.

    I am not alone in here under the assumption that this is PvX game, where you have both PvP and PvE. Also there should be available refunds for any purchases in the store since many people have bought into the idea that they will experience epic PvE encounters in an immersive open world and not PvPvE ones
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Oh good another one of you has chimed in so far 0/2 in agreement of epic instanced content? @CaptnChuck feel free to keep reading my post, are you able to concede those 3 points so I can champion this great crusade of instanced PvE?
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    edited September 2020
    Tragnar wrote: »
    And that is the definition of PvP-centric game. If Ashes is about what you guys are saying it is. Then there is a giant misconception that this is not PvP-centric game and that should be cleared.

    I am not alone in here under the assumption that this is PvX game, where you have both PvP and PvE. Also there should be available refunds for any purchases in the store since many people have bought into the idea that they will experience epic PvE encounters in an immersive open world and not PvPvE ones

    This IS a PvX game. And you DO have both PvP and PvE. We have beaten the definition of PvX to death. One more time for the people in the back:

    You will need both systems of PvP and PvE to succeed in Ashes of Creation. You need to PvP to secure raid bosses, and then you will PvE down those bosses. All the best gear in the game comes from world bosses in the form of crafting materials and recipes. You will need high level crafters to be able to utilize those materials and recipes. You can see how it is a PvX game and every system is intertwined.
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    @Tyrantor
    tbh it is actually becoming quite amusing to read your efforts for caricaturing our concerns ngl
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Their definition of PvX is "Safe place to farm epic loots and I can PvP after my loot is safe".
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Oh good another one of you has chimed in so far 0/2 in agreement of epic instanced content? @CaptnChuck feel free to keep reading my post, are you able to concede those 3 points so I can champion this great crusade of instanced PvE?
    @Tyrantor

    1/4 suggestions had 50% instancing, which I clearly stated was a highly controversial solution. Another had specialized instancing mechanics, which guess what, existed in L2; the game that Steven is taking most of his inspiration from. The other 2 didn't involve ANY instancing whatsoever.

    You're just good at misunderstanding others and being wrong half the time. Stick to it and avoid typing, cuz you have nothing valuable to add to a discussion.
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    @Tyrantor
    Nobody ever said that. It is actually intended in the game that you could gank us when we are trying to get the loot back to town. I have literally no problem with defending the loot we get inside raids. What I have problem with is that anyone is free to gank in any numbers before the boss dies
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'll take that as proof you only want instances for safe epic loot hunts. Confirmed. Thank you.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    Tragnar wrote: »
    @Tyrantor
    Nobody ever said that. It is actually intended in the game that you could gank us when we are trying to get the loot back to town. I have literally no problem with defending the loot we get inside raids. What I have problem with is that anyone is free to gank in any numbers before the boss dies

    I'm sorry to tell you but some of the bosses in Ashes WILL have this as a possibility so start wrapping your brain around it. I'm sure some of the bosses won't and will have lockout mechanics as well.
  • TragnarTragnar Member
    edited September 2020
    @Bricktop I am perfectly fine if SOME of the bosses have a constant threat from ganks and wipes. What I am not fine is if ALL the bosses are under the threat from ganks and wipes
    “Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”

    ― Plato
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tragnar wrote: »
    @Tyrantor
    Nobody ever said that. It is actually intended in the game that you could gank us when we are trying to get the loot back to town. I have literally no problem with defending the loot we get inside raids. What I have problem with is that anyone is free to gank in any numbers before the boss dies

    Before the boss dies, after the boss dies, while the boss is taking a shit? What is the difference? Seriously? You either want game content that challenges you in PvE or you want loot content from the safety of an instance. If you can die and lose the loot AFTER the boss dies what is the difference, if they interrupt you? If you can't lose the loot after the boss dies then it's just free loot in instanced PvE with zero risk of loss, which is not open world any longer.
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    I'll take that as proof you only want instances for safe epic loot hunts. Confirmed. Thank you.
    @Tyrantor

    Thankyou for confirming my point about you being an idiot and not being able to add anything valuable to a discussion.

    When you're wrong, its easy to make stupid remarks like this and escape admitting that you're incorrect. But that's exactly what you are. A spineless worm. Thankyou once again for stepping upto that identity.
  • BricktopBricktop Member, Alpha Two
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    I'll take that as proof you only want instances for safe epic loot hunts. Confirmed. Thank you.

    @Tyrantor

    Thankyou for confirming my point about you being an idiot and not being able to add anything valuable to a discussion.

    You're wrong and its easy to make stupid remarks and escape being incorrect. But I'm not going to let you off of it.

    You are so silly.

    How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when all you ever do is call everybody who disagrees with you stupid? Honest question.
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